Second the motion for a Noam book!! On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:30 AM, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
> > "Those critiques of the universities look good. I got through the > first two." – J > > Glad you liked them. I suggest you do an indepth study of Noam's > understanding about whatever topic you are interested in. He has over > 100 books out. I'm sure some are about things you think about and deem > to be important. As I've said, I thought I was a 'freethinker' and did > a good analysis of situations, politics, economics etc. until I > started to read Noam a couple of years ago. It was like I had a mental > floss! Listening to his clear analysis based upon a vast and > apparently photographic memory of historical events and elements, I > felt my thinking melt. My positions melted. His fresh view seemed to > much more match reality than many of my previous views had. While much > of what he writes about I have to take on faith due to the enormous > quantity of references he gives, so far, I haven't found anything he > references to not be the case. > > Having said that, I am in the middle of questioning and reviewing the > video/transcript I posted here because, my memory of what Joe Biden > was saying about the lead up to the invasion of Iraq was anything but > support as Noam implied. I was watching a lot of C-SPAN, the BBC and > other less biased venues during that era and remember specifically > some of Joe's often repeated words. He was quite conversant and > knowledgeable about the history of the region and very accurately > predicted exactly the result of the invasion and occupation. What I'm > in the process of checking is Joe's voting record in congress. That > may be what Noam meant by 'supported the war'. If so, it would make > sense. I just don't know about that yet. > > On to some of your apparently rhetorical questions… but I will respond > if possible. > > "Now as far as critiquing his speech that you posted originally, do > not you think that it is a stretch to imply that Obama may be setting > himself us for a dictatorship any more than other government leaders > (past or present)?" – J > > I don't think this was his position. Do you remember him including the > last qualifier in your above question? I don't. > > " I agree with the advertising criticism but how else will a candidate > win, realistically?" – J > > Do you mean without any sort of change? Obviously, things will remain > the same if they remain the same. In most situations Noam appears to > be looking at things from a much more objective view. One that is not > firmly entrenched in the memes of the day and culture. One based on a > true bit of 'freethinking' as I see it. So, IF you see situations and > institutions as being static and unchangeable, you will not agree with > much of what Noam says. > > "Besides, Democrats and Republican are pretty much the same as far as > big government...each > attempts to gain more power from the people so what's new? The people > just have to do some work to prevent that from happening." – J > > Again, it appears that you assume that the current system is static. > Republican/Democratic. The truth is that 'the people', in this case > lobbyists and party leaders, have been influencing and changing laws > and procedures along with public perception. And, this has been done > in a very conscious and well thought out way. There are no accidents > in politics. The issue here seems to me, and perhaps Noam, that 'the > people' means just that, all of us and not the few. I would ask you > what you have been doing in this area and/or what ideas you have about > it but hope that you already think about this for yourself. > > "Here is a question: Many of my liberal friends flock around Noam and > hang on every world that he says without ever criticizing or > disagreeing with his views. Can you name five or more points on which > you disagree with Noam? Or, are you just like one of those non- > skeptical Noam followers who I frequently met in California?" – J > > You seem to have taken the Kool-Aid, sadly. The simplistic view of > liberal/conservative does nothing at all to further true understanding > nor thinking. It is a carefully tooled and framed way to present the > issues to the 'masses'. Again, there are no accidents here. By > producing a dialectic, a simple 'war' between two apparently differing > points of view is the result. By framing the issues using the media > (Noam has written some outlandishly wonderful papers on the media.) > those in politics can shift our interests to things with little true > importance. Many people in fact vote against their own self interests > due to such carefully crafted 'issues' of no importance. This was > clearly addressed, albeit shortly, in the video I posted here. I > suggest you read more of his views on it. Much can be learned. > Also, I'm sure that the way you framed your question (above) includes > your own 'answer' and is a tactic used in debate and in no way > produces a 'fair' and clear discussion where actual learning can take > place. In other words, your bias is overtly included in the way you > 'ask a question'. An analogy is the old saw of "Do you still beat your > wife?". > > No, I don't 'hang on every world [sic.]…'. I do listen and open my > thinking to new facts and possibilities. Seldom am I disappointed > about the outcome. Do I criticize or disagree with his views? …ever? > See above RE: Joe Biden. I'm looking into that. Also, I have read some > online polemics and counterpoint to him. So far, I find the criticism > of Noam to be unfounded and more biased than what is being criticized > could ever be. I would be happy to take any one point of his and > discuss it with you after you have studied it too. > > In general, Noam presents history and a rather unique view of how > things work and people think. His experience and information base is > so vast that I will never be able to examine all of what he says. As I > said at the start though, so far, I haven't found a mistake of fact. > When it comes to attitudes, we could discuss what criteria you wish to > use for a critique. > > No, I can not name 5 areas I disagree with him. As I said, most of > what he says is either historical fact or a specific point of view. > And, of course your last question only shows your personal bias and is > apparently rhetorical in nature. This does nothing to further either > of our understandings. > > I am glad you have at least begun to examine Noam yourself rather than > take on the propaganda of others. And, I hope you continue to clearly > critique his papers in the future in the spirit of a true > 'freethinker'. > > > On Nov 25, 3:18 am, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > Those critiques of the universities look good. I got through the > > first two. > > > > Now as far as critiquing his speech that you posted originally, do not > > you think that it is a stretch to imply that Obama may be setting > > himself us for a dictatorship any more than other government leaders > > (past or present)? I agree with the advertising criticism but how > > else will a candidate win, realistically? Besides, Democrats and > > Republican are pretty much the same as far as big government...each > > attempts to gain more power from the people so what's new? The > > people just have to do some work to prevent that from happening. > > > > Here is a question: Many of my liberal friends flock around Noam and > > hang on every world that he says without ever criticizing or > > disagreeing with his views. Can you name five or more points on which > > you disagree with Noam? Or, are you just like one of those non- > > skeptical Noam followers who I frequently met in California? > > > > Jason > > > > On Nov 24, 7:05 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Noam peppers many of his critiques with pointed comments about > > > universities and education in general. Here are a couple that came up > > > first from 'god google'. > > > > > Recent speech.http://www.bu.edu/phpbin/buniverse/videos/view/?id=224 > > > > > General views including Universities. > http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/197305--.htm > > > > > More general overviews.http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19740207.htm > > > > > Resources: > http://www.chomsky.info/http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/chomsky.ht... > > > > > A few thousand videos of him: > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Noam+chomsky&search_type=... > > > > > On Nov 24, 4:26 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > The only book that I read was part of "Hegemony or Survival: > America's > > > > Quest for Global Dominance" and a few articles by him in school. > > > > > > I am not that familiar with his work. Where was he ever cynical of > > > > Ivy League institutions--not the ideas of these Ivy League > > > > institutions but the institutions themselves like he is cynical of > > > > government and corporate institutions? > > > > > > On Nov 24, 5:58 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > "I thought his point were good; however, Noam's an extreme liberal. > > > > > Noam is hyper cynical of all wealthy institutions unless it's an > Ivy > > > > > League institution." – Jason > > > > > > > I accept that you think his point(s) were good. > > > > > > > "Reality has a liberal bias." - Al Franken. > > > > > > > And, I doubt if many who study his works find him to be 'liberal'. > He > > > > > even examines how liberal/conservative have reversed definitions a > few > > > > > times over the last few centuries in different countries and > cultures > > > > > in his writing. > > > > > > > I don't know for sure what you mean by 'wealthy institutions', so I > > > > > can only guess. Perhaps you mean governments? Churches? > Corporations? > > > > > The Mafia?….difficult to tell. > > > > > > > As to his views about Universities, he has always been critical of > > > > > them…always. > > > > > > > As to cynicism, since this includes the meaning of distrust, I see > no > > > > > reason to not hold that view about most institutions. In fact, that > is > > > > > part of his definition of anarchy. I doubt if many 'freethinkers' > here > > > > > would disagree with his definition. See: > http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/rbr/noamrbr2.html > > > > > > > So, overall, I'm glad you liked and agreed with him. I find him to > be > > > > > one of the few sane voices in a vast wasteland. This even though > the > > > > > way he is absolutely banned from any of the corporate media, TV, > > > > > print, radio etc., speaks volumes about how 'dangerous' his clarity > is > > > > > perceived as being by these institutions what with their vast and > > > > > vested interests. > > > > > > > Their propaganda against him is legion. Almost everyone who has NOT > > > > > read his works nor listened to him for any length of time considers > > > > > him at the very least 'controversial' and on the whole, dangerous. > > > > > Apparently it pays to advertise, which he addressed in the > interview > > > > > you just watched. > > > > > > > On Nov 24, 3:38 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I thought his point were good; however, Noam's an extreme > liberal. > > > > > > Noam is hyper cynical of all wealthy institutions unless it's an > Ivy > > > > > > League institution. > > > > > > > > On Nov 24, 9:21 am, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was a little surprised by some of Noam's views on the > election > > > > > > > process and results. Rather than start out with my views, you > may find > > > > > > > his first presentation since the election of note. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/24/noam_chomsky_what_next_the_ele...- > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > -- gnothe se auton --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
