All well and good for the environment where there is no competition, but we have outgrown that stage. We are now in a place where we all are wanting the same resources and those are becoming far more scarce. What happens when you exceed your bid? This came to me while I was at the auction watching folks bidding up stuff to over retail prices. B-i-L wants a plasma cutter. Nice new hypertherm 350 he decided I should bid to $400. A woman took it all the way to $700 + after four of us bowed out at $450.
Water, fuel and food will be handled in a less civilized manner in a few years when we all want it. clay On Aug 21, 2008, at 9:57 AM, Tyler Backman wrote: > Now we have gotten past the semantics, to the real philosophical > disagreement :) > >> ... living on whatever food you can find, or eeking out a living >> raising crops on a small plot of land, hoping there's not a drought >> this year, living long enough to hopefully reproduce at least a few >> offspring since infant mortality is in the ballpark of 50%, reaching >> age 45 or so if you're lucky... Sustainable in the sense that your >> species continues to exist, i guess.... pretty much a "wild animal" >> existence... > > You are illustrating a fundamental philosophical difference between > our culture and that of cultures that live sustainably. Our society > believes that we somehow are able to exist as an isolated entity > without dependence on the natural environment for survival. We have an > illusion that it's our own sheer will and ability to control and > manipulate nature that keeps us alive, as opposed to seeing ourselves > as a member of an ecological community for whom we depend on. This > different world-view results in two totally different systems of > environmental ethics, and two different ways of interacting with the > natural environment. We either abuse and exploit it, or "protect" it > such that we can't use it's resources at all, while they use the > resources responsibly. I believe that this difference in world-view is > what makes a sustainable society different from ours, and needs to > change if we are going to avoid wiping ourselves out. > > You also mentioned that our society is "thriving and continually > improving [its] standard of living." This is something that is > impossible to prove unless you experience it firsthand, but the > overall happiness and quality of life is often higher for most > indigenous people that that of people in industrialized society, > despite higher mortality disease and short life-spans. What use is a > big expensive house, and excellent medical care when we have high > depression rates and the people in our culture are just generally > unhappy? We constantly strive for more technology, money, and material > possessions in hope that it will give us a level of contentment with > our lives that they already have without such things. Perhaps that's > why they never felt the need to develop them? I don't think this is > because indigenous people are "noble savages" but because there is > something fundamentally wrong with our culture that conflicts with the > way our minds work, and the way we evolved to live. What you call a > "wild animal existence" isn't as horrible as most people from our > "civilized" society imagine. It's very different (and not without > serious disadvantages and shortcomings), but not inherently inferior. > I know a few people from "civilized" society whom have gone to live > with indigenous peoples to do humanitarian or environmental work, and > decided they preferred living that way and didn't want to come back to > "civilized" society. > > Also, most indigenous cultures are not without agriculture, > technology, or medicine. Depending on where and how they live, many > indigenous people are able to obtain everything they need for survival > in a much smaller portion of their time than it takes most people in > industrialized society to make a living, leaving a lot of time for > developing art, technology, medicine, and just enjoying life and > spending time with your family/community. They're not making > computers, but I think you'll find that many indigenous people have > found ingenious ways to get food that take up very little of their > time, and have discovered a wide variety of medicines (many modern > pharmaceuticals were discovered based on herbal remedies used by > indigenous people). Many also have developed ways to store water and > preserve food to mitigate the effects of environmental fluctuations > such as drought. > >> deliver clean water and >> fresh food in abundance, defend themselves against enemies > > > Often, the need for us to address these issues is a result of problems > that could have been prevented. If you have low populations and don't > pollute your water, don't wipe out natural animal and plant > populations, and don't try to pick fights with your neighbors these > are non-issues. > > The point I am trying to make isn't that we should give up our modern > society and live as indigenous people, but that we should have more > respect for them, and realize that there is a lot we could learn from > them about how to improve our quality of life and to live sustainably. > In return, they could also benefit from our medicine, and technology > without abandoning their culture. We are essentially at war with our > natural environment, and on a path to quickly wipe ourselves out > unless we learn from our mistakes and make some major changes to how > we live. > > _______________________________________ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
