On Tue, Feb 05, 2019 at 07:23:59AM +0200, Jyri Hovila [Turvamies.fi] wrote: > > > And since you are doing this with -current *ALL OVER THE PLACE* > > there are instructions that if you have trouble you should upgrade > > to a snapshot. > > Theo, with all due respect, there are many situations where upgrading to a > snapshot really isn't an option. > > > Those instructions to exist the noise on the list everytime we > > make a change and people don't notice or understand it and suddenly > > they are in over their heads > > Again with all due respect, should all users of OpenBSD constantly watch the > development in order to be able to use it?
I watch the source changes with great interest sometimes and with lesser interest other times. Sometimes life happens and it just flies past me, but other times I'm grateful that I watched source changes. What I like particularily is well-written commit messages that give me a good idea what the change was without having to go back to cvsweb to see the actual change. Theo is probably _the_ person with the best described messages, and i put trust in those messages. I ask you, if I can read source changes, why can't you? I'm only a user as well. > Yes, I know: the CURRENT is not for production use, etc. etc. etc. > > Then again: using RELEASE is a huge pain from the perspective of a server > administrator with many [often virtual] hosts to maintain. The pain is so big > that it actually drove me away from using OpenBSD for almost a decade. > > > *even our own developers* have to do that, from time to time > > I'd say issues like this are the ones that prevent OpenBSD from being > embraced by many otherwise potential users. > > It's your project and you're free to handle it as you will. You're world > famoous for "being difficult" in the sense that you don't seem to much care > about the opinions and experiences of the "normal" users, so it obviously > doesn't make sense to try and convert you from that -- that attitude is > almost as part of the trademark already. > > I must ask though: is it really so difficult to at least try and help people > out, instead of lashing them? > > I'd like to keep using OpenBSD, but I keep getting headaches due to the > "stick it up yours" attitude when problems arise. I didn't get the feeling that the devs have this attitude. Everyone is human everyone has a bad day, and you must realise that developers have bigger problems that we, the users, are let in on. They are after all able to meet regularily around the globe and identify the problems as well as ponder about how to solve them. > John, I'm getting the same problem with the amd64 version of CURRENT. > Updating to a snapshot is not an option in my scenario, so I'll try and > figure out how to get past the issue. > > Theo, I honestly do appreciate you and the work you've done not just for > OpenBSD but also OpenSSH etc. I just can't understand why you're ruining the > [also commercial] potential by ignoring the needs of the users and by being > so god damn hostile against pretty much anyone who's not willing to humbly > submit to your idea of how things should be done. > > -j. I understand that OpenBSD is in it for themselves. Us, the users who follow the development do so for self-interest, and sometimes we get the same result as the devs and we didn't do anything for that. I find your words to Theo somewhat pushy on a whole community, hence I'm writing this to you. It's just an instance where I don't agree, I like reading source changes. Regards, -peter
