Thank you Dmitry! Well phrased and to the point! As for "templating", that might be the worst of both worlds; without the flexibility and over-time improvement of automatic descriptions, but making it harder for people to enter (compared to "free-style" text). We have a Visual Editor on Wikipedia for a reason :-)
On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:07 AM Dmitry Brant <dbr...@wikimedia.org> wrote: > My thoughts, as ever(!), are as follows: > > - The tool that generates the descriptions deserves a lot more > development. Magnus' tool is very much a prototype, and represents a tiny > glimpse of what's possible. Looking at its current output is a straw man. > - Auto-generated descriptions work for current articles, and *all future > articles*. They automatically adapt to updated data. They automatically > become more accurate as new data is added. > - When you edit the descriptions yourself, you're not really making a > meaningful contribution to the *data* that underpins the given Wikidata > entry; i.e. you're not contributing any new information. You're simply > paraphrasing the first sentence or two of the Wikipedia article. That can't > possibly be a productive use of contributors' time. > > As for Brian's suggestion: > It would be a step forward; we can even invent a whole template-type > syntax for transcluding bits of actual data into the description. But IMO, > that kind of effort would still be better spent on fully-automatic > descriptions, because that's the ideal that semi-automatic descriptions can > only approach. > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 10:36 PM, Brian Gerstle <bgers...@wikimedia.org> > wrote: > >> Could there be a way to have our nicely curated description cake and eat >> it too? For example, interpolating data into the description and/or marking >> data points which are referenced in the description (so as to mark it as >> outdated when they change)? >> >> I appreciate the potential benefits of generated descriptions (and other >> things), but Monte's examples might have swayed me towards human >> curated—when available. >> >> On Tuesday, August 18, 2015, Monte Hurd <mh...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >> >>> Ok, so I just did what I proposed. I went to random enwiki articles and >>> described the first ten I found which didn't already have descriptions: >>> >>> >>> - "Courage Under Fire", *1996 film about a Gulf War friendly-fire >>> incident* >>> >>> - "Pebasiconcha immanis", *largest known species of land snail, extinct* >>> >>> - "List of Kenyan writers", *notable Kenyan authors* >>> >>> - "Solar eclipse of December 14, 1917", *annular eclipse which lasted >>> 77 seconds* >>> >>> - "Natchaug Forest Lumber Shed", *historic Civilian Conservation Corps >>> post-and-beam building* >>> >>> - "Sun of Jamaica (album)", *debut 1980 studio album by Goombay Dance >>> Band* >>> >>> - "E-1027", *modernist villa in France by architect Eileen Gray* >>> >>> - "Daingerfield State Park", *park in Morris County, Texas, USA, >>> bordering Lake Daingerfield* >>> >>> - "Todo Lo Que Soy-En Vivo", *2014 Live album by Mexican pop singer Fey* >>> >>> - "2009 UEFA Regions' Cup", *6th UEFA Regions' Cup, won by Castile and >>> Leon* >>> >>> >>> >>> And here are the respective descriptions from Magnus' (quite excellent) >>> autodesc.js: >>> >>> >>> >>> - "Courage Under Fire", *1996 film by Edward Zwick, produced by John >>> Davis and David T. Friendly from United States of America* >>> >>> - "Pebasiconcha immanis", *species of Mollusca* >>> >>> - "List of Kenyan writers", *Wikimedia list article* >>> >>> - "Solar eclipse of December 14, 1917", *solar eclipse* >>> >>> - "Natchaug Forest Lumber Shed", *Construction in Connecticut, United >>> States of America* >>> >>> - "Sun of Jamaica (album)", *album* >>> >>> - "E-1027", *villa in Roquebrune-Cap-Martin, France* >>> >>> - "Daingerfield State Park", *state park and state park of a state of >>> the United States in Texas, United States of America* >>> >>> - "Todo Lo Que Soy-En Vivo", *live album by Fey* >>> >>> - "2009 UEFA Regions' Cup", *none* >>> >>> >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Just trying to make my own bold assertions falsifiable :) >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Monte Hurd <mh...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >>> >>>> The whole human-vs-extracted descriptions quality question could be >>>> fairly easy to test I think: >>>> >>>> - Pick, some number of articles at random. >>>> - Run them through a description extraction script. >>>> - Have a human describe the same articles with, say, the app interface >>>> I demo'ed. >>>> >>>> If nothing else this exercise could perhaps make what's thus far been a >>>> wildly abstract discussion more concrete. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Monte Hurd <mh...@wikimedia.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If having the most elegant description extraction mechanism was the >>>>> goal I would totally agree ;) >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Dmitry Brant <dbr...@wikimedia.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> IMO, allowing the user to edit the description is a missed >>>>>> opportunity to make the user edit the actual *data*, such that the >>>>>> description is generated correctly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Monte Hurd <mh...@wikimedia.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> IMO, if the goal is quality, then human curated descriptions are >>>>>>> superior until such time as the auto-generation script passes the Turing >>>>>>> test ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I see these empty descriptions as an amazing opportunity to give >>>>>>> *everyone* an easy new way to edit. I whipped an app editing interface >>>>>>> up >>>>>>> at the Lyon hackathon: >>>>>>> bluetooth720 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VblyGhf_c8> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I used it to add a couple hundred descriptions in a single day just >>>>>>> by hitting "random" then adding descriptions for articles which didn't >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd love to try a limited test of this in production to get a sense >>>>>>> for how effective human curation can be if the interface is easy to >>>>>>> use... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Jan Ainali <jan.ain...@wikimedia.se >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nice one! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does not appear to work on svwiki though. Does it have something to >>>>>>>> do with that the wiki in question does not display that tagline? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige <http://wikimedia.se> >>>>>>>> 0729 - 67 29 48 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till >>>>>>>> mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.* >>>>>>>> Bli medlem. <http://blimedlem.wikimedia.se> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2015-08-18 17:23 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske < >>>>>>>> magnusman...@googlemail.com>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Show automatic description underneath "From Wikipedia...": >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/autodesc.js >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To use, add: >>>>>>>>> importScript ( 'User:Magnus_Manske/autodesc.js' ) ; >>>>>>>>> to your common.js >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It would be even better if this (short: 3 field max) >>>>>>>>>> pipe-separated list was available as a gadget to wikidatans on >>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia >>>>>>>>>> (like me). I can't see if a page I am on has an "instance of" >>>>>>>>>> (though it >>>>>>>>>> should) and I can see the description thanks to another gadget >>>>>>>>>> (sorry no >>>>>>>>>> idea which one that is). Often I will update empty descriptions, but >>>>>>>>>> if I >>>>>>>>>> was served basic fields (so for a painting, the creator field), I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> click through to update that too. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) < >>>>>>>>>> nemow...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jane Darnell, 15/08/2015 08:53: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes but even if the descriptions were just the contents of >>>>>>>>>>>> fields >>>>>>>>>>>> separated by a pipe it would be better than nothing. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> +1, item descriptions are mostly useless in my experience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As for "get into production on Wikipedia" I don't know what it >>>>>>>>>>> means, I certainly don't like 1) mobile-specific features, 2) >>>>>>>>>>> overriding >>>>>>>>>>> existing manually curated content; but it's good to 3) fill gaps. >>>>>>>>>>> Mobile >>>>>>>>>>> folks often do (1) and (2), if they *instead* did (3) I'd be very >>>>>>>>>>> happy. :) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Nemo >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Dmitry Brant >>>>>> Mobile Apps Team (Android) >>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation >>>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_mobile_engineering >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle >> IRC: bgerstle >> >> > > > -- > Dmitry Brant > Mobile Apps Team (Android) > Wikimedia Foundation > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_mobile_engineering > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 10:36 PM, Brian Gerstle <bgers...@wikimedia.org> > wrote: > >> Could there be a way to have our nicely curated description cake and eat >> it too? For example, interpolating data into the description and/or marking >> data points which are referenced in the description (so as to mark it as >> outdated when they change)? >> >> I appreciate the potential benefits of generated descriptions (and other >> things), but Monte's examples might have swayed me towards human >> curated—when available. >> >> On Tuesday, August 18, 2015, Monte Hurd <mh...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >> >>> Ok, so I just did what I proposed. I went to random enwiki articles and >>> described the first ten I found which didn't already have descriptions: >>> >>> >>> - "Courage Under Fire", *1996 film about a Gulf War friendly-fire >>> incident* >>> >>> - "Pebasiconcha immanis", *largest known species of land snail, extinct* >>> >>> - "List of Kenyan writers", *notable Kenyan authors* >>> >>> - "Solar eclipse of December 14, 1917", *annular eclipse which lasted >>> 77 seconds* >>> >>> - "Natchaug Forest Lumber Shed", *historic Civilian Conservation Corps >>> post-and-beam building* >>> >>> - "Sun of Jamaica (album)", *debut 1980 studio album by Goombay Dance >>> Band* >>> >>> - "E-1027", *modernist villa in France by architect Eileen Gray* >>> >>> - "Daingerfield State Park", *park in Morris County, Texas, USA, >>> bordering Lake Daingerfield* >>> >>> - "Todo Lo Que Soy-En Vivo", *2014 Live album by Mexican pop singer Fey* >>> >>> - "2009 UEFA Regions' Cup", *6th UEFA Regions' Cup, won by Castile and >>> Leon* >>> >>> >>> >>> And here are the respective descriptions from Magnus' (quite excellent) >>> autodesc.js: >>> >>> >>> >>> - "Courage Under Fire", *1996 film by Edward Zwick, produced by John >>> Davis and David T. Friendly from United States of America* >>> >>> - "Pebasiconcha immanis", *species of Mollusca* >>> >>> - "List of Kenyan writers", *Wikimedia list article* >>> >>> - "Solar eclipse of December 14, 1917", *solar eclipse* >>> >>> - "Natchaug Forest Lumber Shed", *Construction in Connecticut, United >>> States of America* >>> >>> - "Sun of Jamaica (album)", *album* >>> >>> - "E-1027", *villa in Roquebrune-Cap-Martin, France* >>> >>> - "Daingerfield State Park", *state park and state park of a state of >>> the United States in Texas, United States of America* >>> >>> - "Todo Lo Que Soy-En Vivo", *live album by Fey* >>> >>> - "2009 UEFA Regions' Cup", *none* >>> >>> >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Just trying to make my own bold assertions falsifiable :) >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Monte Hurd <mh...@wikimedia.org> wrote: >>> >>>> The whole human-vs-extracted descriptions quality question could be >>>> fairly easy to test I think: >>>> >>>> - Pick, some number of articles at random. >>>> - Run them through a description extraction script. >>>> - Have a human describe the same articles with, say, the app interface >>>> I demo'ed. >>>> >>>> If nothing else this exercise could perhaps make what's thus far been a >>>> wildly abstract discussion more concrete. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Monte Hurd <mh...@wikimedia.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> If having the most elegant description extraction mechanism was the >>>>> goal I would totally agree ;) >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Dmitry Brant <dbr...@wikimedia.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> IMO, allowing the user to edit the description is a missed >>>>>> opportunity to make the user edit the actual *data*, such that the >>>>>> description is generated correctly. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Monte Hurd <mh...@wikimedia.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> IMO, if the goal is quality, then human curated descriptions are >>>>>>> superior until such time as the auto-generation script passes the Turing >>>>>>> test ;) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I see these empty descriptions as an amazing opportunity to give >>>>>>> *everyone* an easy new way to edit. I whipped an app editing interface >>>>>>> up >>>>>>> at the Lyon hackathon: >>>>>>> bluetooth720 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VblyGhf_c8> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I used it to add a couple hundred descriptions in a single day just >>>>>>> by hitting "random" then adding descriptions for articles which didn't >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd love to try a limited test of this in production to get a sense >>>>>>> for how effective human curation can be if the interface is easy to >>>>>>> use... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Jan Ainali <jan.ain...@wikimedia.se >>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nice one! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does not appear to work on svwiki though. Does it have something to >>>>>>>> do with that the wiki in question does not display that tagline? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Med vänliga hälsningar,Jan Ainali* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Verksamhetschef, Wikimedia Sverige <http://wikimedia.se> >>>>>>>> 0729 - 67 29 48 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Tänk dig en värld där varje människa har fri tillgång till >>>>>>>> mänsklighetens samlade kunskap. Det är det vi gör.* >>>>>>>> Bli medlem. <http://blimedlem.wikimedia.se> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2015-08-18 17:23 GMT+02:00 Magnus Manske < >>>>>>>> magnusman...@googlemail.com>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Show automatic description underneath "From Wikipedia...": >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Magnus_Manske/autodesc.js >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To use, add: >>>>>>>>> importScript ( 'User:Magnus_Manske/autodesc.js' ) ; >>>>>>>>> to your common.js >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It would be even better if this (short: 3 field max) >>>>>>>>>> pipe-separated list was available as a gadget to wikidatans on >>>>>>>>>> Wikipedia >>>>>>>>>> (like me). I can't see if a page I am on has an "instance of" >>>>>>>>>> (though it >>>>>>>>>> should) and I can see the description thanks to another gadget >>>>>>>>>> (sorry no >>>>>>>>>> idea which one that is). Often I will update empty descriptions, but >>>>>>>>>> if I >>>>>>>>>> was served basic fields (so for a painting, the creator field), I >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> click through to update that too. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) < >>>>>>>>>> nemow...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jane Darnell, 15/08/2015 08:53: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes but even if the descriptions were just the contents of >>>>>>>>>>>> fields >>>>>>>>>>>> separated by a pipe it would be better than nothing. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> +1, item descriptions are mostly useless in my experience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As for "get into production on Wikipedia" I don't know what it >>>>>>>>>>> means, I certainly don't like 1) mobile-specific features, 2) >>>>>>>>>>> overriding >>>>>>>>>>> existing manually curated content; but it's good to 3) fill gaps. >>>>>>>>>>> Mobile >>>>>>>>>>> folks often do (1) and (2), if they *instead* did (3) I'd be very >>>>>>>>>>> happy. :) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Nemo >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Mobile-l mailing list >>>>>>> Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Dmitry Brant >>>>>> Mobile Apps Team (Android) >>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation >>>>>> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_mobile_engineering >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> EN Wikipedia user page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Brian.gerstle >> IRC: bgerstle >> >> > > > -- > Dmitry Brant > Mobile Apps Team (Android) > Wikimedia Foundation > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_mobile_engineering > > _______________________________________________ > Mobile-l mailing list > Mobile-l@lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mobile-l >
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