Andre:
A basic premiss I like to work towards is the one Pirsig talks about in ZMM
(p 291 of my Corgi paperback) "...social values are right only when
individual values are right. The place to improve the world is first in
one's own heart and head and hands, and then work outward from there".
In this sense I did not want to come across as 'moralising' Platt, far from
it. I am merely looking at ways of improving myself, with the aid of your
posts within the context of the MoQ and as this process continues share some
of those things learned/ insights gained.
woods:
Moralizing is good. It's when somebody tries to force their morals on
somebody else. That's a problem. So what you say here about Pirsig
and where to begin first, that's where it would be best to begin. I don't
know about others here in the forum, but for example, this "forcing" is still
very familiar in
the U.S. from the Amerindian days that still continue to this day. They live
on
reservations in the U.S. and have difficulty becoming independent - by the
way the same cry as conservatives, but conservatives in politics never fulfill
this smaller gov't, more independence, more self-reliance. The FBI, ATF,
Homeland
Security, and Bureau of Indian Affairs is very active. I would search Republic
of Lakota to
see the lastest push for sovereignty due to the U.S. being unconstitutional,
again.
You see the U.S. is lawless. Without adherence to the constitutional law of
the
and that supersedes any other laws a moral force to keep society in check
is lost. It's a breakdown of society. Without law confidence is lost. A
current
argument in the U.S. against the constitution is that it is an old document and
times have changed so we don't need to follow the constitution anymore. That's
crazy. The U.S. constitution is a living document. Amendments can be
added onto the constitution to sustain the clarity for the current times.
Amendments
have been added throughout U.S. history. If people want to have the federal
gov't
doing something that is unconstitutional currently, then they can go through
the proper steps to have an amendment added onto the constitution. But a few
people don't want to go through the process and so that do whatever they want
and break the highest law of the land.
wikipedia:
"They argue that as an Indian tribe in the United States, the Lakota were
already
and always have been a sovereign nation as guaranteed under
Article Six of the United States Constitution, bound to the United States
Federal
Government by treaty. As such, the legal basis of such a state's independence
is argued to be the Lakota nation's withdrawal from the Treaty of Fort Laramie
(1851)
and the Treaty of Fort Laramie (1868) and the rejection of all United States
federal
laws, executive orders, and other government acts since then, in particular
rejecting
the Major Crimes Act, the General Allotment Act, the Citizenship Act of 1924,
the Indian Reorganization Act of 1934, the Indian Claims Commission Act, Public
Law 280
and the Termination Act.[26][15]"
woods continue:
You see the U.S. has not been following Article Six of the U.S.
constitution, which
directly impacts the Republic of Lakotah and other Amerindians. This Article
outlines
the authority of Treaties that have been made between the U.S. and other
sovereign
entities.
I would say this is a breakdown on the intellectual level and thus an
immoral act
of society dominating intellect.
This above process that the R of Lak. is involved in is still on-going.
It's a new event.
They are holding elections Nov. 4 too. Russell means has been using this as
his campaign
slogan. Their trying to set up solar and wind energy right now to further
their break away from
the U.S. and to reclaim their sovereignty that the U.S. consistently tries to
take
away from them all the time still.
Andre:
There must be 'common ground' which we share and this is what I didn't see.
I am reminded of seeing David Suzuki on Australian televion, it must have
been back in the eighties. The audience consisted of "greenies" and
scientists, business people and a mix of your "average" Aussies.
Suzuki opened the discussion by asking: "Do you think that clean air, clean
water and clean land is important?".
At the end of the programme, which lasted something like an hour or so, no
agreement was reached about this basic premiss and Suzuki just thanked the
audience saying it was nice getting to know them and left.
The reason I picked on America is because American policies (both internal
and foreign) have such a huge impact on the rest of the world. America has
assumed a sort of a global 'moral policing' role. I just find the
intellectual content of that morality rather low quality.
woods:
I agree Andre. The foundations in the U.S. are good, but are not followed
so watch out. It's a blind beast swinging it's arms around.
Andre:
I hope it is now clear I do not want to put the MoQ in the service of any
social organisation rather exactly the opposite.
Again thank you for clarifying things for me, I hope I have clarified things
for you as well.
woods:
You could have an moq social organization, this forum is one. It's about
people wanting to join in freedom, not by force, that's all. That's Platt
argument
and I know he's correct on that point. I think I'm actually getting used to
Platt.
I used to have a very rough time with him. Now I think Platt is putting out
comments to see where your coming from. If you talk about social organization,
then
Platt may ask or say don't force this on people - meaning, it's good as long as
people freely partake, not by the point of the gun. Of course other points can
be made, but we learn and find out were we are each coming from. Also, at
times,
a little side-stepping a topic that we don't agree with and seeing how it plays
out on
the forum helps too at times. Then we can dive in when we think we have a
better
grasp as to where people are coming from. Discuss until you know for sure that
what the other person is saying is truly what you think they are saying. I
would
say that's good advice, not just for you or anybody else on this forum, but for
me too.
Does that sound about right Platt?
woods
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