Where did I say anyone cooked numbers? And if you go back and read what you said, my rhetoric was no more insulting or inflammatory than yours:
"The chaos surrounding professional sports fan behavior sickens the society, but worse, ruins surrounding properties rendering them valueless." "Check out what has happened to the eight block radius around both the Hump and the Target Center. Wastelands." "Stadiums are never a public asset, only a private one - they're without a true public purpose and their impact on a huge area of every city core where they've been erected has been ghetto-creation, little more." As for sports bars and restaurants being economic development, I'll grant that such entities don't provide the same kind of opportunities as, say a manufacturing facility, but two things: 1. It's better than the big, fat decaying NOTHING that was along First Avenue before Target Center and 2. I'm willing to bet money that the same folks who decry professional sports venues would be wailing and gnashing at the teeth over the pollution, traffic and other negatives that a factory or some such facility would likely bring. 3. The concern over "the usual climate created around alcohol consumption in copious quantities and feverish fans (win or lose) make for a nice evening leisurely strolling the options a vibrant downtown provides" could also be seen as an argument for locating a ballpark at the Rapid Park site. Then, all the so-called pro sports thugs are contained in the Warehouse District, leaving the remainder of downtown free of these crude animals for those who wish a leisurely stroll... As for Zimbalist, I think everyone is aware that there are "lies, damn lies and statistics" - people can spin numbers to mean anything they want - ask Doug Mann about how the Minneapolis Public Schools do that. In such cases, sometimes it's actually better to just open your eyes and look at what's right in front of you rather than rely on spreadsheets and such. And when you do that in the Warehouse District, it's obvious that the Warehouse District now is a vast improvement over what existed pre-Target Center. Driscoll apparently cannot counter my arguments, so he attempts to belittle me as merely an insult-hurler. Nice try Andy, but see if you can actually stick with the topic. Try and find someone who will corroborate your assertion that the Warehouse District was "thriving" back in the late 1980's. Or that all professional sports venues merely result in creating ghettos. That's how debate works. Mark Snyder Windom Park On 10/20/03 8:01 AM, "Andy Driscoll" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Whew, now there's an effective advocate! This is an essay on three items: > > 1.The wonder of pro sports and the assumption that opponents of publicly > funded stadia are pro sports haters. Please tell my wife this. She simply > can't understand why I spend a decent fall afternoon with the Vikes. > > 2. The assumption that sports bars, restaurants and more sports bars with a > refurbished hotel thrown in here and there amounts to economic development > and that the usual climate created around alcohol consumption in copious > quantities and feverish fans (win or lose) make for a nice evening leisurely > strolling the options a vibrant downtown provides. > > 3. That those who have made the study of the impacts of public kowtowing to > professional sports part of their life's work haven't a clue, are out of > touch with the hoi polloi and cook the numbers to justify their results. > > With such advocates like this there is no discussion unless we're prepared > for nothing but insult-trading. > > Mr. Snyder is clearly not worth that. REMINDERS: 1. Think a member has violated the rules? Email the list manager at [EMAIL PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list. 2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. ________________________________ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
