2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davito...@gmail.com> > 2011/5/12 caramel <carame...@ymail.com> > >> >> > And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track names >>> > (strictly conform to standard) ? >>> > >>> Eventually no? >>> from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title >>> "Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner, >>> following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the exceptions..." >>> >>> Read it (proposal CSG v2) >> Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles >> should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases since it >> is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was said on >> this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and recordings >> titles are more "standard". >> I think recordings concept are much more important for classical because >> recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different albums and >> compilations. I think that the use of "standard" titles for recordings (same >> title as works) should be applied. >> >> About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English >> language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in German. >> Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case. >> >> About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for the >> language. I am sorry but there is no "No." in French but "no", "Nr." in >> German, "no" in Italian, Spanish... "#" in US English,... followed by >> Arabian numbers. >> >> Abbreviation of "opus" is "Op." in English.... but "op." for Latin >> languages >> >> In the example cited in the documentation "Les nuits d'été, Op. 7: 2. Le >> spectre de la rose (Alt)", the space before semi-colon sign is missing while >> it is mentioned that "If French CSG is being used, the additional >> punctuation spacing rules of >> CapitalizationStandardFrench<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Capitalization_Standard_French>also >> apply".. and the French capitalization is missing too. >> It should be : >> Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply French >> capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules >> and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt) >> while the work title could be >> Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) >> or >> Mélodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 « Les Nuits d'été » : II. Le >> Spectre de la rose (alto) >> >> For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one composer.... >> and of course, it is better to use the native language of the composer (with >> still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in >> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and >> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identificationshould >> reflect this position. >> Ex: For Hector Berlioz, the language should be French. So instead of : >> Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique in C >> major and minor, Op. 14 "Episode de la vie d'un artiste... en cinq partes": >> III. Scène aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do majeur >> et mineur, op. 14 « Épisode de ..... >> Same for Mozart and Bach : German language >> obviously here : >> Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and orchestra, >> BWV 197a/7 *vel* 398 "Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe" >> it is better to write "Kantate für...." at least for the work title. >> > > I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I > believe there are 2 parts in a title: > - the reference part, work type, catalog info etc... > - the "common name" >
> > I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow > that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily do so. > Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part of > the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a classical work > should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and Satie > are in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not > saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I would > have difficulties entering Чайковский, Пётр Ильич works or linking one of my > albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I seriously > doubt Béla Bartók would be easier. > I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in German,.... In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent too. If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we translate to English... But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I search on ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125", I get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours Symphonie, Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job to merge the works. As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at the Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or read the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum ( http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1) given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation with lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the composers and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings without works (eg. http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56and many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer, before to initiate the enormous work for the next months. I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to discriminate our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I am not closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add aliases for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original title in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias name. > Once again, I am not saying using the composer's language is wrong, just > that it should be carefully thought before taking a decision, preferably > after entering a partial list of works by composers such as these. > > -- > Frederic Da Vitoria > (davitof) > > Membre de l'April - « promouvoir et défendre le logiciel libre » - > http://www.april.org > > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style >
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