2011/5/12 symphonick <symphon...@gmail.com> > On Thu, 12 May 2011 14:00:43 +0200, Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren > <reosare...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 2:53 PM, caramel <carame...@ymail.com> wrote: > >> > >> > >> 2011/5/12 Frederic Da Vitoria <davito...@gmail.com> > >>> > >>> 2011/5/12 caramel <carame...@ymail.com> > >>>> > >>>>> > And for classical releases, is there still an exception for track > >>>>> > names > >>>>> > (strictly conform to standard) ? > >>>>> > > >>>>> Eventually no? > >>>>> from http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Recording/Title > >>>>> "Classical track titles should be entered as they are on the liner, > >>>>> following normal MusicBrainz style guidelines, with the > >>>>> exceptions..." > >>>>> > >>>> Read it (proposal CSG v2) > >>>> Once again, the distinction between track, recording and work titles > >>>> should be introduced. There is a difference non-classical releases > >>>> since it > >>>> is proposed to follow liner notes for recordings titles when it was > >>>> said on > >>>> this thread that tracks titles are copied from back cover and > >>>> recordings > >>>> titles are more "standard". > >>>> I think recordings concept are much more important for classical > >>>> because > >>>> recordings (obviously old ones) are used many times in different > >>>> albums and > >>>> compilations. I think that the use of "standard" titles for > >>>> recordings (same > >>>> title as works) should be applied. > >>>> > >>>> About the doc itself, please correct the documentation for non-English > >>>> language. We already had a discussion on forum about the keys in > >>>> German. > >>>> Please no C-dur or cis-moll but C-Dur and cis-Moll with upper-case. > >>>> > >>>> About abbreviations : please use the right ortho-typography rules for > >>>> the > >>>> language. I am sorry but there is no "No." in French but "no", "Nr." > >>>> in > >>>> German, "no" in Italian, Spanish... "#" in US English,... followed by > >>>> Arabian numbers. > >>>> > >>>> Abbreviation of "opus" is "Op." in English.... but "op." for Latin > >>>> languages > >>>> > >>>> In the example cited in the documentation "Les nuits d'été, Op. 7: 2. > >>>> Le > >>>> spectre de la rose (Alt)", the space before semi-colon sign is > >>>> missing while > >>>> it is mentioned that "If French CSG is being used, the additional > >>>> punctuation spacing rules of CapitalizationStandardFrench also > >>>> apply".. and > >>>> the French capitalization is missing too. > >>>> It should be : > >>>> Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 : 2. Le Spectre de la rose (Alt) if we apply > >>>> French capitalization, abbreviation and spacing rules > >>>> and far better with (alto) instead of (Alt) > >>>> while the work title could be > >>>> Les Nuits d'été, op. 7 H. 81 : II. Le Spectre de la rose (alto) > >>>> or > >>>> Mélodies pour voix et piano, op. 7 H. 81 « Les Nuits d'été » : II. Le > >>>> Spectre de la rose (alto) > >>>> > >>>> For works titles in CSG, we should use one language for one > >>>> composer.... > >>>> and of course, it is better to use the native language of the > >>>> composer (with > >>>> still some discussion for non Latin languages !). So the examples in > >>>> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title and > >>>> > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Proposal:CSGv2/Work/Title/Work_and_opus_identification > >>>> should reflect this position. > >>>> Ex: For Hector Berlioz, the language should be French. So instead of : > >>>> Correct: True and CSG for Works combined title Symphonie fantastique > >>>> in C > >>>> major and minor, Op. 14 "Episode de la vie d'un artiste... en cinq > >>>> partes": > >>>> III. Scène aux champsI would prefer :Symphonie fantastique en do > >>>> majeur et > >>>> mineur, op. 14 « Épisode de ..... > >>>> Same for Mozart and Bach : German language > >>>> obviously here : > >>>> Johann Sebastian Bach - Cantata for 2 voices, mixed chorus, and > >>>> orchestra, BWV 197a/7 vel 398 "Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe" > >>>> it is better to write "Kantate für...." at least for the work title. > >>> > >>> I am not sure you are right about capitalization/punctuation rules. I > >>> believe there are 2 parts in a title: > >>> - the reference part, work type, catalog info etc... > >>> - the "common name" > >> > >> > >>> > >>> I agree the common name should be in the composer's language and follow > >>> that language's rules, but the reference part should not necessarily > >>> do so. > >>> Since Work titles are where we will apply the most normalization, part > >>> of > >>> the normalization rules could be that the reference part of a > >>> classical work > >>> should be written in English. Of all the works referenced from > >>> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSG_Standard , only Bach, Britten and > >>> Satie are > >>> in the composer's language, all others seem to be in English. I am not > >>> saying this is right or wrong, but there are arguments for each way. I > >>> would > >>> have difficulties entering Чайковский, Пётр Ильич works or linking one > >>> of my > >>> albums to the correct works if his list was in Cyrillic. And I > >>> seriously > >>> doubt Béla Bartók would be easier. > >> > >> I do not know why Bizet, Poulenc, Berlioz, Debussy works should not be > >> titled in French, de Falla in Spanish, WA Mozart and Beethoven in > >> German,.... > >> In the CSG doc, it is written that we should maintain the ArtistIntent > >> too. > >> If the composer titled itself his works on the score, why should we > >> translate to English... > >> > >> But I guess that the problem will be to clean the database... if I > >> search on > >> ngs.musicbrainz.org the works for "Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125", > >> I > >> get about 400 works without taking into account other flavours > >> Symphonie, > >> Sinfonie,... no key, no opus number.... So it will be a big job to > >> merge the > >> works. > >> As you guess there is more Symphony than Sinfonie, but you can look at > >> the > >> Beethoven's manuscript of the first edition of the score on IMSLP or > >> read > >> the web (English) pages of the Beethoven's house museum > >> ( > http://www.beethoven-haus-bonn.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=15241&template=werkseite_digitales_archiv_en&_eid=1510&_ug=Symphonies&_werkid=127&_mid=Works%20by%20Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven&suchparameter=&_seite=1 > ) > >> given the correct name is "Sinfonie Nr. 9 (d-Moll) op. 125" with key in > >> parenthesis since it was not given by the author, and opus abbreviation > >> with > >> lower case (German !). We can derive a CSG compliant name from this but > >> since we will have to do the work for all the works and all the > >> composers > >> and merge all the fake works to the correct and attach the recordings > >> without works (eg. > >> > http://ngs.musicbrainz.org/recording/0160bf56-1c40-4a02-84f1-ee675c568d56 > >> and many others). I think we can propose a language for each composer, > >> before to initiate the enormous work for the next months. > >> > >> I agree that I prefer languages using Latin script but not to > >> discriminate > >> our Russian friends for Tchaikovsky, Shostakovitch, Moussorgsky,... I > >> am not > >> closing the debate here. And there is always the possibility to add > >> aliases > >> for the work names. It is a pretty solution to maintain the original > >> title > >> in its language and to add at least the English translation as alias > >> name. > > > > I don't know if this was stating a fact or requesting a feature, but > > there are aliases for work names already :) (and I would indeed use > > the language used by the artist for the work name and add the rest as > > an alias) > > +1 > > I assume that if we don't default to "original" titles, we would always > get partly translated titles derived from works? Let's say some of > Tchaikovsky's works are in French, but I'd have to somehow manually select > aliases if I don't want everything in French? > We will have "problems" with Tchaikovsky (Russian/French/...?), Liszt (Hungarian / French / ..?), Händel (German/Italian/English)... but always there is a "native" language.
I'm just guessing here, it would be interesting to know how Picard would > handle this. > >From my understanding, Picard will see only track names (by default ?). Recordings (names) are linked to tracks and Works (names) are linked to Recordings.... so to take the standard work name, we have to follow the links... > > /symphonick > > _______________________________________________ > MusicBrainz-style mailing list > MusicBrainz-style@lists.musicbrainz.org > http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style >
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