Hi Simon, I can write you back channel about this if you want. Your description below was followed. What happened was ugly.
- Alan On Fri, 9 Sep 2011, Simon Biggs wrote: > I'm surprised empyre was grief. So long as you stick to the monthly theme (it > is a strictly thematic discussion list, not a general discussion list, and is > moderated to ensure there are no announcements or off topic posts) it is a > very generous community, in my experience. Melissa started it with excellent > intentions and they have remained at its core. > > best > > Simon > > > On 9 Sep 2011, at 17:50, Alan Sondheim wrote: > >> >> >> I had real trouble on empyre and went quiet; I was one of the guests at one >> point and was attacked by one of the moderators during the period. So I'm >> not very partial to it. Syndicate was only announcement at the end, far more >> interesting earlier as was 7-11 etc. The Cybermind list I run has been going >> for 18 years strong, as has been wryting-l which was originally >> fiction-of-philosophy. Depends on the list. - Alan >> >> On Fri, 9 Sep 2011, Ana Vald?s wrote: >> >>> I remember I was subscribed to Syndicate as well but I never heard about NN >>> and never participated, I felt Syndicate was more a list for announcements >>> of events, maybe I only subscribed to the events list. >>> But it's interesting to discuss the validity of the mailinglists today, as >>> forums for discussion or for sharing information. >>> I have been participating in the Australian list -empyre for many years and >>> now I feel the list is slowly dissapearing. Some of you (Patrick Lichty was >>> a briljant moderator for some month's ago) are members of -empyre too. Do >>> you feel the same as me? It's not strange, the list has been on the net for >>> ages and the moderators do a terrific job but the most of people are >>> freelancing artists or teachers with very little time to spare... >>> I tried today to reach their arrchives and the links were broken. >>> It would be a real loss if -empyre is gone. >>> Ana >>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:54 PM, marc garrett <marc.garr...@furtherfield.org> >>> wrote: >>> Hi Ana, >>> >>> Thanks for the link to 'Doctress Neutopia', very interesting... >>> >>> Yes - I remember on the (once brilliant) Syndicate list years >>> ago, where >>> Netochka Nezvanova, N.N., antiorp, integer dominated, causing >>> all kinds >>> of upset... >>> >>> "The net entity nn (Netochka Nezvanova, integer, antiorp, etc.), >>> a >>> pseudonym used by an international group of artists and >>> programmers in >>> their extensive and aggressive mailing list-based >>> online-performances and >>> for other art projects, had been subscribed to the Syndicate >>> list in 1997. >>> It was, as the first of less than a handful of people ever, >>> unsubscribed >>> against its will because it was spamming the list so heavily >>> that all >>> meaningful communication was blocked. In January 2001, nn sent >>> an e-mail >>> asking to again be subscribed to the Syndicate mailing list. >>> (What nn >>> never bothered to realise was that subscription to the list had >>> always >>> been open so that, at any point, it could have subscribed itself >>> - we have >>> always wondered why Majordomo is such a blind spot in this >>> technophile >>> entity's arsenal.) After getting assurances from nn that she was >>> not out >>> to misuse the list, we subscribed it to the Syndicate list. >>> >>> Naively, as we had to realise. nn went from one or two messages >>> every day >>> in February to an average of three to five message in April and >>> up to >>> eight and ten messages per day in May and June - and that on a >>> list which >>> had a regular daily traffic of three to five messages a day. The >>> distributed nature of the nn collective makes it possible for >>> them to keep >>> posting 24 hours a day - great for promoting your online >>> presence, >>> irritating for people who have a less frantic life rhythm. nn's >>> messages >>> are always cryptic, sometimes amusing, often tediously >>> repetitive in their >>> quirky rhetorics and style, and generally irritating for the >>> majority of >>> people. Its activity on the Syndicate - like on many other lists >>> it has >>> used and terrorised - soon came to look like a hijack. But the >>> sheer mass >>> of traffic nn was generating, the sheer amount of nn's presence, >>> was >>> overwhelming. Perhaps this phenomenon could be compared to >>> SMEGL, short >>> for super mental grid lock, a term that was developed to >>> describe traffic >>> jam situations in NYC back in the eighties (or was this term >>> coined in >>> Berlin-Kreuzberg's famous Fischbuero? Who knows, the boundaries >>> get >>> blurred...). >>> >>> In the spring of 2001, nn's and other people's activities who >>> use open, >>> unmoderated mailing lists for promulgating their >>> self-promotional e-mails, >>> triggered discussions about 'spam art', on Syndicate as well as >>> on other >>> lists. Actually, given the extreme openness and vulnerability of >>> a >>> structure like the Syndicate it remains quite astonishing that >>> this >>> structure survived for such a long time. What happened in the >>> course of >>> 2000/2001 (not only to Syndicate, but also to several other >>> mailing lists) >>> was that the openness of these lists, i.e. the fact that they >>> were >>> unmoderated, was massively abused, and, finally, destroyed, by >>> relentless >>> 'creative' spamming. One of the basic principles of the Internet >>> - its >>> openness - suddenly seemed to become a mere tool for attacking >>> this very >>> principle. 'Netiquette' did not seem to be of much value anymore >>> and was >>> sacrificed for the egotistical self-expression of (distributed) >>> artist >>> egos. The irony of this process is that, like any good parasite, >>> this >>> artistic practice depends on the existence of lively online >>> communities: >>> it not only bites, but kills the hand that feeds it. - These >>> parasite >>> nomads will find new hosts, no doubt, but they have over the >>> past year >>> helped to erode the social fabric of the wider net cultural >>> population so >>> much that communities have to protect themselves from attacks >>> and hijacks >>> more aggressively than before. Their adolescent carelessness is >>> partly >>> responsible for the withering of the romantic utopia of a >>> completely open, >>> sociable online environment. However educational that may be, we >>> despise >>> the deliberation with which these people act. >>> >>> nn got unsubscribed from the Syndicate without warning on a day >>> when there >>> had been nothing but ten messages from her. After some days of >>> silence and >>> sighs of relief, angry protests by nn came through. On the list, >>> accusations of censorship and/or dictatorship were made. A small >>> but noisy >>> faction denounced unsubscribing nn as an act against the freedom >>> of >>> speech. They called the administrators fascists, murderers, and >>> 'threatened' to report the case to 'Index on Censorship'. While >>> some other >>> list members welcomed the departure of nn on and off the list >>> and the >>> admin team again and again explained their move, the ludicrous >>> allegations >>> and vociferous insults continued. >>> >>> The real shock for us was that the majority of list subscribers >>> did not >>> participate in the discussion and thus silently seemed to accept >>> what was >>> going on. It was personally hurtful not to receive more support >>> against >>> the insults raised against us, but more frustrating was the >>> indifference >>> that made the whole process possible. Within few days, the >>> alienation from >>> the atmosphere on the list was so great that we admitted defeat, >>> re-subscribed nn and began to withdraw from the Syndicate. The >>> list was >>> moved to a different server and is now administered by other >>> people at >>> anart.no/~syndicate. We wanted to avoid further verbiage and >>> conflict and >>> therefore gave up the name, but we insist that from our >>> perspective the >>> Syndicate project that was founded in 1996 ended in August 2001. >>> What >>> remains under its name is a zombie kept alive by misconceptions >>> about what >>> the Syndicate really was. Maybe we should have stopped the >>> project >>> altogether in the summer? >>> >>> Filtering has, in a way, done us in. Before there were effective >>> e-mail >>> clients that could filter out lists and other mail >>> communication, >>> everybody on the list got everything more or less instantly, >>> which also >>> meant a higher level of social awareness and social control of >>> what goes >>> on on the list. Today, many people filter the lists they >>> subscribe to and >>> only look at the postings at irregular intervals - some >>> mailboxes don't >>> get opened for months. Like this, people consume the list >>> passively and do >>> not even notice a fiasco like the one that we experienced on the >>> Syndicate >>> list in the summer. I guess that some people who remain >>> subscribed to the >>> Syndicate list still have not noticed that anything has changed. >>> For a >>> social community, that kind of behaviour - automated deferance - >>> can be >>> fatal." >>> >>> <nettime> Rise and Decline of the Syndicate >>> http://www.nettime.org/Lists-Archives/nettime-l-0111/msg00077.html >>> >>> wishing all well. >>> >>> marc >>>> Interesting, it reminds me about doctress Neutopia, >>>> >>> http://projectwhitehouse.wordpress.com/democrats/libby-hubbard-aka-doctress >>> -neutopia-free-the-slaves >>>> a selfnamed prophet and the founder of a new religion at the >>> beginning of the Net, around 1995. >>>> She terrorized many online communities and was expelled from many >>> forums. >>>> Ana >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:25 PM, marc garrett >>> <marc.garr...@furtherfield.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Netochka Nezvanova. >>>> >>>> One of the most famous and infamous EccentricCharacters in >>>> turn?of?the?21st Century Western artistic NetworkCulture, Netochka >>>> Nezvanova (aka N.N., antiorp, integer, Irena Sabine Czubera) >>> remains an >>>> enigma to many. Widely believed to be an IdentityCollective?, >>> Netochka >>>> Nezvanova is a PenName named after the title character in [an >>> early >>>> unfinished Fyodor Dostoevsky novel] whose name means "nameless >>> nobody" >>>> in Russian. The identity always presents itself as female, >>> though >>> it may >>>> not be in reality. Despite the meaning of her moniker, N.N. has >>> coveted >>>> attention and recognition like few others on the Internet. >>>> >>>> http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/NetochkaNezvanova >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://www.twitter.com/caravia15852 >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/art-and-activism/ >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/food-history-and-trivia >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/gender-issues/ >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/literary-exiles/ >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/museums-and-ethics/ >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/urbanism-3-0 >>>> http://www.scoop.it/t/postcolonial-mind/ >>>> >>>> mobil/cell +4670-3213370 >>>> >>>> >>>> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth >>> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you >>> will always long to return. >>>> ? Leonardo da Vinci >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>> -- >>> http://www.twitter.com/caravia15852 >>> http://www.scoop.it/t/art-and-activism/ >>> http://www.scoop.it/t/food-history-and-trivia >>> http://www.scoop.it/t/gender-issues/ >>> http://www.scoop.it/t/literary-exiles/ >>> http://www.scoop.it/t/museums-and-ethics/ >>> http://www.scoop.it/t/urbanism-3-0 >>> http://www.scoop.it/t/postcolonial-mind/ >>> mobil/cell +4670-3213370 >>> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your >>> eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always long >>> to return. >>> ? Leonardo da Vinci >>> >> >> == >> eyebeam: http://eyebeam.org/blogs/alansondheim/ >> email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >> web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 347-383-8552 >> music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ >> current text http://www.alansondheim.org/re.txt >> ==_______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org >> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > > > Simon Biggs | si...@littlepig.org.uk | www.littlepig.org.uk > > s.bi...@ed.ac.uk | Edinburgh College of Art | University of Edinburgh > www.eca.ac.uk/circle | www.elmcip.net | www.movingtargets.co.uk > > > Simon Biggs | si...@littlepig.org.uk | www.littlepig.org.uk > > s.bi...@ed.ac.uk | Edinburgh College of Art | University of Edinburgh > www.eca.ac.uk/circle | www.elmcip.net | www.movingtargets.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list > NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > > == eyebeam: http://eyebeam.org/blogs/alansondheim/ email archive http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ web http://www.alansondheim.org / cell 347-383-8552 music: http://www.espdisk.com/alansondheim/ current text http://www.alansondheim.org/re.txt == _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list NetBehaviour@netbehaviour.org http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
