Have you tried running an extra ground wire from engine (at the starter) to the
frame (battery “door” bolt ?
The battery ground goes directly to the engine, not to the frame. Engine mounts
are rubber.
It’s worked for me before. Jim
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jul 3, 2022, at 12:05 PM, Frank Hawkwarts <frank.hawkwa...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hey Guys,
> took a while to get forward and work through all possible traps by checking
> again every connector, switch, cable, fuse box, panel, ignition switch, green
> ground connection underneath tank at the coils etc. and following the diagram
> all the way back to the rear lights.
> Even both, RR and Stator, measured fine in resistance and continuity, I first
> replaced the RR and finally also replaced the stator with a new one hoping
> they are somehow tired over 40 years.
> It gave me 0.3V or so and it looks'n feels lighter/brighter at the end but
> the voltage aboard still won't exceed 13V when measuring between battery
> poles.
> BUT - and this is now really odd - I do get 13.6V on revving up when
> measuring between the r/w and green coming out of the RR on the left side.
> So fine, there must be some resistance from the left to the right battery
> side, right? Nope, I get 0.2 Ohms between the green and engine/frame/battery
> minus resp. between red/white on the left and r/w on the right at the starter
> solenoid.
> Then I confirmed the battery voltage between green and black, a minor drop
> between r/w and red while the drop between green and ground goes from -1.3V
> to 1.3V when revving up.
> I also connected the RR green straight to Battery minus just to ensure I
> don't miss a ground issue between engine/frame.
> Surprisingly, the amperage raises up to 2A on 4000rpm while the system
> voltage level remains around 13V.
> What the hell is going on? Am I measuring innocent voltage ghosts now?
> Thanks
> Frank
>
> Frank Hawkwarts schrieb am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2022 um 12:14:49 UTC+2:
>> Thanks for your inputs which actually both sound reasonable in general.
>> Plucking the diagram along the harness up to the starter switch and further
>> to the ignition switch in the meter panel would definitely make sense if I
>> had a noticable voltage drop or resistance between the left and right
>> attachments.
>> Initially I will first try to bypass the RR carefully with (an external)
>> battery plus to the black stator input and a bridge from the white stator
>> output to my battery minus.
>> The stator itself looks and measures damned fine and like you said, it is
>> the last thing I want to change for 2 reasons:
>> The outer rotor/fan bolt is quite resisting the forces with gear in and
>> break on and I really don't want to accidentally crack the inner alternator
>> chain for sure.
>> And unfortunately I didn't find a dealer yet in Europe offering a new
>> OEM/Aftermarket stator except for a niche company offering a re-winding for
>> similar pricing.
>> By researching other communities, I found an US offer (Ricks) and they put
>> around 70 bucks on top for shipping which is just another RR *LOL*
>>
>> fiveb...@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2022 um 10:38:53 UTC+2:
>>> Oops, meant to say that I paid $180 for a new Stator... and Well worth the
>>> price!
>>>
>>> Aloha,
>>> Ian
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 10:35 PM Ian Chames <fiveb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> When I bought my 83 Nighthawk 650 last year, right away I had charging
>>>> issues. The battery was a closed cell, supposedly in good condition.
>>>> Changed the rectifier first (as it was the cheapest replacement item),
>>>> charging output at 3000+ rpm was putting out only about 11.8 volts. Bit
>>>> the bullet, paid about $180, with shipping to Hawaii, installed it, and I
>>>> was getting over 14 volts! Charging problem solved... Wrong! Stranded on
>>>> the side of the road, bike completely dead, and the 30amp fuse blown.
>>>> Thought I had a dead short somewhere, so I completely tore the front end
>>>> wiring apart, took the ignition switch apart... Couldn't find anything
>>>> looking burnt or shorted.
>>>>
>>>> Decided what the hell, and bought a new Yuasa battery (couldn't find a
>>>> store that had a closed cell), filled up the cells with the supplied acid
>>>> waited overnight for the acid to settle in, topped it off, installed it...
>>>> All the lights came back on, and the bike fired right up! That was about
>>>> 5-6 month ago, and I've not had a charging problem since! I can leave it
>>>> for a week, go out, hit the key/starter button, and it fires right up,
>>>> every Time!
>>>>
>>>> So, bite the bullit, forget about the Clymer testing mumbo-jumbo (I tried
>>>> all that crap too), and get a new stator!
>>>>
>>>> My two cents worth of experience,
>>>>
>>>> Aloha,
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2022, 7:44 PM Drew Gormley <wrench...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> It sounds like you might have a connection causing a drain of voltage
>>>>> somewhere. While my bike discharges a little each ride, I top it off
>>>>> every few days with the trickle, I've never stalled or lost power.
>>>>>
>>>>> Check all your shinies and connectors aren't corroded or loose. Shiny =
>>>>> Volts.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 12:14 AM Frank Hawkwarts <frank.h...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> One step ahead, I received a new aftermarket R/R to replace the old one
>>>>>> but both passed voltage measures and diode tests outside.
>>>>>> No surprise it didn't make a difference and the load capacity still
>>>>>> doesn't reach 13V @5000 after checking these things:
>>>>>> - battery fine and fully charged giving 12.8V and 12.3 with ignition and
>>>>>> head light on
>>>>>> - black/white DC from RR into stator magnet coil is about 11.6V which is
>>>>>> standby voltage minus transistor loss with 5 ohm resistance
>>>>>> - no remarkable drop between green RR to black battery or red/white RR
>>>>>> to red starter relay
>>>>>> - stator resistance between each yellow is less than 1 ohm and the diode
>>>>>> test also passed in both directions while they are not grounded anywhere
>>>>>> - RR diode pass also fine in one direction for yellow/green and
>>>>>> redwhite/yellow pairs so it really rectifies AC to DC as expected
>>>>>> - wires and connectors are clean with minimum resistance, black ground
>>>>>> from battery and the green at the ignition coils are clean on frame
>>>>>> - head light gets noticeable brighter with factor x1.5 between idle and
>>>>>> @2500
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have no reliable spec for the expected AC output from the stator to
>>>>>> the rectifier/regulator and found any value from 10 to 60V on the web
>>>>>> which doesn't help.
>>>>>> Each yellow pair gives about 8-10V on idle but no more than 13V equally
>>>>>> when revving to 4000 which might indicate a tired stator.
>>>>>> But I'm somehow running out of ideas and obviously I wasn't the only one
>>>>>> over the last 30 years. DOH!
>>>>>> Frank Hawkwarts schrieb am Freitag, 17. Juni 2022 um 20:29:30 UTC+2:
>>>>>>> Kyle, thanks for confirming the idle caveat again which at least
>>>>>>> complies with the Clymer.
>>>>>>> It just makes me wonder whether the Nighthawk was far ahead that time
>>>>>>> with CDI, hydraulic valves and final drive for highway trips only while
>>>>>>> it sucks the battery in city traffic.
>>>>>>> However, it all doesn't explain yet why the load voltage won't get
>>>>>>> above 12.8V even on 5000 rpm even if all resistance, diode, voltage
>>>>>>> loss measurements are within specs when following professional tips
>>>>>>> from several sources.
>>>>>>> I replicated the results with a fresh battery and different multimeter
>>>>>>> devices and there is no visible damages to any leads or coils either.
>>>>>>> On the other hand, the battery acid level decreases slowly and I have
>>>>>>> to re-fill some destilled water after 8-12 weeks.
>>>>>>> Maybe the regulator goes mad depending on the runtime temperature
>>>>>>> coincidently so I will try an aftermarket rectifier/regulator as first
>>>>>>> playoff criteria.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> kyl...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 17. Juni 2022 um 18:33:16 UTC+2:
>>>>>>>> One thing I learned back when I had my 650 was that Mr Clymer will
>>>>>>>> absolutely lie to you and won't feel bad about it. I can't say if he's
>>>>>>>> right or not about the charging system, it's been too many years, I
>>>>>>>> think the biggest lie I found was with wiring diagram had some wire
>>>>>>>> colors mixed up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That said, yes the 83-85 650 does not charge below 2500 RPM. There are
>>>>>>>> tons and tons of threads in the archives here regarding the charging
>>>>>>>> systems, several disagreements, lots of high level discussions about
>>>>>>>> the comings and doings of electrons and amps and ohms, but the one
>>>>>>>> thing agreed on is it doesn't charge at idle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Kyle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 8:48 AM Frank Hawkwarts
>>>>>>>>> <frank.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear Hawkies,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> proudly owning an US 83‘ Nighthawk 650 for many years now, I much
>>>>>>>>> appreciate Paul's valuable site leading me to this group.
>>>>>>>>> Currently I‘m also fighting the famous charging issues and struggle
>>>>>>>>> with a misleading information in the Clymer CB550 & 650 Nighthawk
>>>>>>>>> 1983-1985 chapters 4 and 7 about the permanent magnetic rotor which
>>>>>>>>> states the following.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chapter 4 Engine - page 101:
>>>>>>>>> "Rotor Testing - the rotors are permanently magnetized and cannot be
>>>>>>>>> tested except by replacement with rotors known to be good. Rotors can
>>>>>>>>> lose magnetism from old age or a sharp blow. If defektive, the rotors
>>>>>>>>> must be replaced; they cannot be remagnetized. The inner and outer
>>>>>>>>> rotors are available only as a set."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Chapter 7 Electrical System - page 186 (older Clymer print only, not
>>>>>>>>> found in my print):
>>>>>>>>> "Rotor Testing - The alternator has 2 rotors that are permanently
>>>>>>>>> magnetized and cannot be tested except by replacement with a rotor
>>>>>>>>> known to be good. A rotor can lose magnetism from old age or a sharp
>>>>>>>>> blow. If defektive, the rotors must be replaced; they cannot be
>>>>>>>>> remagnetized."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But in fact, the US CB 650 SC Nighthawk (aka CBX 650 E in Europe) has
>>>>>>>>> a brushless excited field alternator which receives 12V DC input from
>>>>>>>>> the Voltage regulator through the black and white leads into a
>>>>>>>>> separate field coil to return adjusted AC through its 3 yellow leads
>>>>>>>>> on demand.
>>>>>>>>> Unlike a permantent magnet giving full capacity all time, it prevents
>>>>>>>>> the RR from smashing all the overhead by cooling the transformed heat.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So it looks like the Clymer information was false copied from the
>>>>>>>>> preceding 82 CB650SC or similar model. There used to be a link to
>>>>>>>>> ‚Revised '83-85 Clymer Chapter 7 for '83-'85 CB650SC Charging System‘
>>>>>>>>> which is broken and obsolete. Is there any other source to confirm my
>>>>>>>>> assumption?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Another controversy discussion is often seen to when and what the
>>>>>>>>> charging starts ("it doesn't charge below 2500 vs. it they all charge
>>>>>>>>> at IDLE already").
>>>>>>>>> Well, the Table 1 at the end of chapter 7 states an negative amperage
>>>>>>>>> output up to 1500 rpm, approximately 0 amp at 2000-2100 rpm (83)
>>>>>>>>> resp. 1700-1800 rpm (84-on) and +2 amperage output beginning at 2500
>>>>>>>>> rpm.
>>>>>>>>> This seems to match my experience when wasting a lot of time on
>>>>>>>>> traffic jams and lights before surprising me with an empty sucked
>>>>>>>>> battery on next engine start in the mid of nowhere *slurp*.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any comments to confirm or deny my throughts and assumptions are
>>>>>>>>> welcome :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you and take care,
>>>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>>>
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