On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 10:21 AM Ilhan Polat <ilhanpo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > GitHub Discussions is more of a Q&A platform, like Stackoverflow. I > don't think it really makes sense for free form discussion. > > I don't see how it is to be honest. I'm hearing this complaint quite > often but I can't see how that is. That's quite not my experience. > Especially in node.js repo and other participants of the discussions beta > are quite happy with it. > > Maybe I should rephrase why I am mentining this; Very often, some thing is > popping up in the issues asking for whether X is suitable for Sci/NumPy and > we lead the user here and more often than not they don't follow up. I can't > blame them because the whole mailing list experience especially for the > newcomers is a dreadful experience and most of the time you don't get any > feedback. Also you can't move because in the issue we told them to come > here and nobody is interested, then things stop unless someone nudges the > repo issue which was the idea in the first place. So in a way we are > putting this barrier as in "go talk to the elders in the mountain and bring > some shiny gems on your way back" which makes not much sense. We are using > the issues and PRs anyways to discuss stuff willingly or not so I can't > say I follow the argument for the holistic mailing list format. This > doesn't mean that I ignore the convenience because that was the case in the > last decades. I'm totally fine with it. But if we are going to move it > let's make it count not switch to an identical platform just for the sake > of it. If not Github then something actually encourages the community to > join and not getting in the way. > I agree, "go talk to the elders in the mountain" is not a great experience. One of the other problems about mailing lists is that it's awkward or impossible to ping old discussions. E.g., if you find a mailing list thread discussing an issue from two years ago, you pretty much have to start a new thread to discuss it. I think GitHub discussions is a perfectly fine web-based platform and definitely an improvement over a mailing list, but do like Discourse a little better. It's literally one click for a user to sign up to post on Discourse if they already have a GitHub account. > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 6:31 PM Stephan Hoyer <sho...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 8:55 AM Matthew Brett <matthew.br...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Only to say that: >>> >>> * I used to have a very firm preference for mail, because I'm pretty >>> happy with Gmail as a mail interface, and I didn't want to have >>> another channel I had to monitor, but >>> * I've spent more time on Discourse over the last year, mainly on >>> Jupyter, but I have also set up instances for my own projects. I now >>> have a fairly strong preference for Discourse, because of its very >>> nice Markdown authoring, pleasant web interface for reviewing >>> discussions and reasonable mailing list mode. >>> >> >> +1 Markdown support, the ability to edit/delete posts, a good web >> interface and the possibility for new-comers to jump into an ongoing >> discussion are all major advantages to Discourse. >> >> I am not concerned about spam management or moderation. NumPy-Discussion >> is not a very popular form, and we have plenty of mature contributors to >> help moderate. >> >> >>> * I have hardly used Github Discussions, so I can't comment on them. >>> Are there large projects that are happy with them? How does that >>> compare to Discourse, for example? >>> >> >> GitHub Discussions is more of a Q&A platform, like Stackoverflow. I don't >> think it really makes sense for free form discussion. >> >> >>> * It will surely cause some harm if it is not clear where discussions >>> happen, mainly (mailing list, Discourse, Github Discussions) so it >>> seems to me better to decide on one standard place, and commit to >>> that. >>> >> >> +1 let's pick a place and stick to it! >> >> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Matthew >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:39 PM Rohit Goswami <rgosw...@quansight.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > I’m firmly against GH discussions because of the upvoting mechanism. >>> We don’t need to be Reddit or SO. .NET had a bad experience with the >>> discussions as well [1]. >>> > >>> > [1] https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore/issues/29935 >>> > >>> > — Rohit >>> > >>> > On 1 Oct 2021, at 15:04, Andras Deak wrote: >>> > >>> > On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 4:27 PM Ilhan Polat <ilhanpo...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> The reason why I mentioned GH discussions is that literally everybody >>> who is engaged with the code, is familiar with the format, included in the >>> codebase product and has replies in built unlike the Discourse (opinion is >>> mine) useless flat discussion design where replies are all over the place >>> just like the mailing list in case you are not using a tree view supporting >>> client. Hence topic hijacking is one of the main usability difficulties of >>> emails. >>> >> >>> >> The goal here is to have a coherent engagement with everyone not just >>> within a small circle, such that there is indeed a discussion happening >>> rather than a few people chiming in. It would be a nice analytics exercise >>> to have how many active users using these lists. I'd say 20-25 max for >>> contribs and team members which is really not much. I know some people are >>> still using IRC and mailing lists but I wouldn't argue that these are the >>> modern media to have proper engaging discussions. "Who said to whom" is the >>> bread and butter of such discussions. And I do think that discourse is >>> exactly the same thing with mailing lists with a slightly better UI while >>> virtually everyone else in the world is doing replies. >>> > >>> > >>> > (There are probably a lot of users like myself who follow the mailing >>> list discussions but rarely feel the need to speak up themselves. Not that >>> this says much either way in the discussion, just pointing it out). >>> > >>> > I'm not intimately familiar with github discussions (I've only used it >>> a few times), but as far as I can tell it only has answers (or "comments") >>> and comments (or "replies") on answers, i.e. 2 levels of replies rather >>> than a flat single level of replies. If this is indeed the case then I'm >>> not sure it's that much better than a flat system, since when things really >>> get hairy then 2 levels are probably also insufficient to ensure "who said >>> to whom". The "clear replies" argument would hold stronger (in my >>> peanut-gallery opinion) for a medium that supports full reply trees like >>> many comment sections do on various websites. >>> > >>> > András >>> > >>> >> >>> >> I would be willing to help with the objections raised since I have >>> been using GH discussions for quite a while now and there are many tools >>> available for administration of the discussions. For example, >>> >> >>> >> >>> https://github.blog/changelog/2021-09-14-notification-emails-for-discussions/ >>> >> >>> >> is a recent feature. I don't work for GitHub obviously and have >>> nothing to do with them but the reasons I'm willing to hear about. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 3:07 PM Matthew Brett <matthew.br...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 1:57 PM Rohit Goswami <rgosw...@quansight.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> > >>> >>> > I guess then the approach overall would evolve to something like >>> using the mailing list to announce discourse posts which need input. Though >>> I would assume that the web interface essentially makes the mailing list >>> almost like discourse, even for new users. >>> >>> > >>> >>> > The real issue IMO is still the moderation efforts and additional >>> governance needed for maintaining discourse. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes - that was what I meant. I do see that mailing lists are harder >>> >>> to moderate, in that once the email has gone out, it is difficult to >>> >>> revoke. So is the argument just that you *can* moderate on >>> Discourse, >>> >>> therefore you need to think about it more? Do we have any reason to >>> >>> think that more moderation will in fact be needed? We've needed very >>> >>> little so far on the mailing list, as far as I can see. >>> >>> >>> >>> Chers, >>> >>> >>> >>> Matthew >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> >>> Member address: ilhanpo...@gmail.com >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> >> Member address: deak.and...@gmail.com >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> > Member address: rgosw...@quansight.com >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> > Member address: matthew.br...@gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >>> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >>> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >>> Member address: sho...@gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org >> To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ >> Member address: ilhanpo...@gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org > To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ > Member address: sho...@gmail.com >
_______________________________________________ NumPy-Discussion mailing list -- numpy-discussion@python.org To unsubscribe send an email to numpy-discussion-le...@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/numpy-discussion.python.org/ Member address: arch...@mail-archive.com
