I do not have the server resources at this time to create 32 functional regions. That would also add a lot of uneeded complexity to creating temporary virtual workspaces for project collaboration and training. I try to keep things simple in order to up the reliability factor. It took me only a few minutes to subdivide a region into 32 parcels with a simple naming convention for each parcel. Other than not having a way to directly backup and restore a single parcel everything else works just fine. :)
-Robert Dickson, Mike (ISS Software) wrote: > > As long as a region can also be arbitrarily small I think a region based > approach can work. Really the 256m square model was effective and will > remain so for some use cases. But there are others where megaregions or > smaller regions even might make sense. Lastly stitching them together on > a grid is itself a simplifying assumption. Other systems like Croquet and > ActiveWorlds really are more decoupled from that and you can "portal" > between completely disconnected regions. > > I guess this boils down to the use cases you want to support and where the > current approach fails to achieve that. > > Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Karen Palen > Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:29 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver? > > I have to wonder if that isn't being too "SecondLife centric"! > > There really seems to be no reason why you can't give each user an entire > region with OpenSim. > > The restrictions and expense of a region really boil down to SecondLife's > business model in which they charge for virtual land by the square meter. > This is not due to any fundamental cost increment - the real cost > variables are things like the number of prims and avatars on the land, not > its "virtual area". > > This still does not address any ownership issues which really are a > different dimension of the problem. I suspect that this is bound up in the > ownership issues you see in Hypergrids. > > I don't have a good solution to these issues, apart from being prepared to > donate much of my own past 3d work. > > Karen > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, Robert Klein <[email protected]> wrote: > >> From: Robert Klein <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver? >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 7:04 PM >> >> Wow, it is really starting to sound like we need a more >> robust tool for >> backing up, restoring, merging, and upgrading regions and >> parcels. The use >> case I have is my standalone has a region that has been >> subdivided into 32 >> parcels. Each parcel is an office space where the user can >> personalize their >> own space. As people roll on and off projects I need to be >> able to backup a >> parcel and replace it with a blank one for the next user. >> If the original >> user comes back for another project I need to restore their >> office space to >> either the same spot or another spot that is available. I >> seriously do not >> want to backup and restore entire regions for each change >> of a tiny parcel. >> Also if you rent out an event space think of how easy it >> would be to just >> bring events up and down based on each time slot. This >> would give OpenSim a >> really cool and useful advantage. >> >> -Robert >> >> >> Diva Canto wrote: >> > >> > Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps >> I'm involved with >> > include people building things in separate development >> sims, possibly >> > over copies of a base model, and then having a >> deployment sim where >> > things are merged periodically. >> > >> > Bob Wellman wrote: >> >> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar >> we could specify >> >> owner-id and then the saved file would only >> contain prims owned by that >> >> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger >> change I think in trems of >> >> loading oar being less all or nothing too. >> >> >> >> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is >> the way it replaces >> >> everything in a sim. It would be good if there >> were an option to replace >> >> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the >> file being loaded. >> >> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to >> replace only parts of >> >> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new >> oar of Nicks prims >> >> leaving Toms prims where they are). >> >> >> >> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a >> city) is built by the >> >> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded >> via OAR files to a >> >> public grid. Then in that public grid other people >> (Tom) adds >> >> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the >> meantime the sim owner >> >> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his >> standalone which he wants >> >> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If >> he does load-oar he >> >> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the >> public grid version. What >> >> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So >> we need someway to save >> >> each contribution and merge them. >> >> >> >> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a >> syntax for this. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800 >> >> > From: [email protected] >> >> > To: [email protected] >> >> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel >> Archiver? >> >> > >> >> > There are several kinds of filters one >> could add to the general >> >> > archiving facility. Parcels... why not. >> Another one -- more important >> >> to >> >> > me -- is owner id. >> >> > >> >> > Stefan Andersson wrote: >> >> > > There is of course always the >> option to implement a region module >> >> that can >> >> > > implement some fairly more >> detailed use case, maybe connecting to >> >> stuff like >> >> > > scheduled jobs et c. >> >> > > >> >> > > /Stefan >> >> > > >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> >> > >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:opensim-users- >> >> > >> [email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Robert Klein >> >> > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009 >> 15:24 >> >> > >> To: [email protected] >> >> > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] >> Parcel Archiver? >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> I see your points and was only >> suggesting we have some refined way >> >> of >> >> > >> backing >> >> > >> up regions instead of either >> all or nothing. Even a basic program >> >> for >> >> > >> backing up data on a computer >> allows you to backup either the whole >> >> > >> disk, >> >> > >> individual directories, and >> individual files (tar vs dd for >> >> example). >> >> > >> We >> >> > >> have methods for backing up >> the whole drive and individual files >> >> but >> >> > >> not >> >> > >> directories. It just seems >> unbalanced. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> I have seen some pretty >> intense builds in SL and OS on relatively >> >> small >> >> > >> parcels that would be a huge >> issue to recreate. The IAR files are >> >> great >> >> > >> but >> >> > >> are not a reasonable method >> for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128 >> >> > >> parcel >> >> > >> with several buildings full of >> content including a museum and >> >> > >> stage/events >> >> > >> area or a nightclub. >> Experience tells me we are going to need this >> >> if >> >> > >> we >> >> > >> continue to support the >> concept of having parcels. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> -Robert >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote: >> >> > >>> One way to go about it >> could be to make sure the oar is subdivided >> >> > >> into >> >> > >>> parcels when storing it; >> if so, one would probably backup the >> >> whole >> >> > >> oar, >> >> > >>> but >> >> > >>> be able to restore only >> parts of the oar. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> I have only used oars for >> full backup, so I don't know if the >> >> parcel >> >> > >> info >> >> > >>> is >> >> > >>> already stored in it? >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> /Stefan >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> From: [email protected] >> >> > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] >> On Behalf Of Len >> >> > >> Brown >> >> > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 >> 09:20 >> >> > >>> To: [email protected] >> >> > >>> Subject: Re: >> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver? >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> I am tempted to say that >> individual parcel backups is not a good >> >> > >> idea. If >> >> > >>> one is building on a >> parcel, as opposed to a full region, then >> >> simply >> >> > >>> maintaining copies of >> their items in their inventory should be >> >> > >> adequate. >> >> > >>> Parcels come in so many >> sizes and making a backup would require >> >> the >> >> > >> new >> >> > >>> parcel for a restore would >> have to be identical in dimensions. So >> >> > >> this >> >> > >>> can >> >> > >>> be very complex if you >> have a parcel that, for example, lies along >> >> a >> >> > >> road >> >> > >>> so >> >> > >>> the side of your parcel is >> angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped >> >> > >> parcel >> >> > >>> or >> >> > >>> a combination of parcels >> that are separated by other parcels you >> >> do >> >> > >> not >> >> > >>> own. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Backing up a region is >> simple enough given the standard >> >> dimensions, >> >> > >> even >> >> > >>> when dealing with >> megaregions, which are really just a combination >> >> of >> >> > >>> multiple "regular" regions >> of standard size. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> So I feel that backing up >> personal parcels should remain the >> >> process >> >> > >> of >> >> > >>> maintaining items in your >> personal inventory and making a backup >> >> of >> >> > >> THAT >> >> > >>> rather than the parcel >> area itself. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> - Len W. Brown >> >> > >>> [email protected] >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at >> 1:16 AM, Karen Palen >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> > >>> wrote: >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Just a thought, but with >> the economics of OpenSim being totally >> >> > >> different >> >> > >>> from Second Life, I wonder >> if we will end up with hundreds of tiny >> >> > >> parcels >> >> > >>> in each region? >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> It seems to me that there >> are several issues here concerning >> >> changes >> >> > >> in >> >> > >>> parcel size/location >> between backup and restore as well as some >> >> > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning >> issues. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> As I think about the >> problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can >> >> > >> fully >> >> > >>> articulate even the nature >> of those issues since they depend >> >> heavily >> >> > >> on >> >> > >>> the >> >> > >>> direction that OpenSim >> development and implementation takes. >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Just the same we do need >> to consider them as best we can lest we >> >> fall >> >> > >> into >> >> > >>> some of the same traps as >> Second Life (content ownership, banking >> >> > >> debacle, >> >> > >>> and gambling come to >> mind). >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> Karen >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, >> Robert Klein <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>>> From: Robert Klein >> <[email protected]> >> >> > >>>> Subject: Re: >> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver? >> >> > >>>> To: [email protected] >> >> > >>>> Date: Friday, November >> 20, 2009, 6:09 PM >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> Hey Justin, >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> Yes that is correct, >> just archive a single parcel on a >> >> > >>>> region. Whatever is >> >> > >>>> in the parcel gets put >> into the PAR file. Can it be done? >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> -Robert >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> justincc wrote: >> >> > >>>>> Robert Klein >> wrote: >> >> > >>>>>> We have a OAR >> for regions and a IAR for inventory >> >> > >>>> but what about a PAR >> >> > >>>>>> for >> >> > >>>>>> doing parcel >> area archiving? It would be an easy >> >> > >>>> way to dedicate one >> >> > >>>>>> subdivided >> parcel area for bringing things in and >> >> > >>>> out of OpenSims that >> >> > >>>>>> either use the >> mega region or just have a single >> >> > >>>> region that is >> >> > >>>>>> subdivided. >> >> > >>>>>> Also the >> beauty of this would be in the future if >> >> > >>>> you have renters or >> >> > >>>>>> event >> >> > >>>>>> spaces you can >> keep backups of just those spaces. >> >> > >>>>> I'm not too sure >> if I get exactly what you mean. >> >> > >>>> Are you talking about >> >> > >>>>> archiving just the >> contents of a single parcel on a >> >> > >>>> region? >> >> > >>>>> -- >> >> > >>>>> justincc >> >> > >>>>> Justin >> Clark-Casey >> >> > >>>>> http://justincc.org >> >> > >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>>>> Opensim-users >> mailing list >> >> > >>>>> [email protected] >> >> > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>> -- >> >> > >>>> View this message in >> context: >> >> > >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html >> >> > >>>> Sent from the >> opensim-users mailing list archive at >> >> > >>>> Nabble.com. >> >> > >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>>> Opensim-users mailing >> list >> >> > >>>> [email protected] >> >> > >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> Opensim-users mailing >> list >> >> > >>> [email protected] >> >> > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >>> Opensim-users mailing >> list >> >> > >>> [email protected] >> >> > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >> -- >> >> > >> View this message in context: >> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver- >> >> > >> tp4008165p4042739.html >> >> > >> Sent from the opensim-users >> mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > >> Opensim-users mailing list >> >> > >> [email protected] >> >> > >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users >> >> > > >> >> > > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > Opensim-users mailing list >> >> > > [email protected] >> >> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users >> >> > > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > Opensim-users mailing list >> >> > [email protected] >> >> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> New! 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