That's what I said :) You can use whatever wonderful technology you like, but you need to provide an alternative that is basically plain old, accessible, semantic, HTML.
The Sydney Olympics site was just plain inaccessible to blind users, I don't recall there being any plug-in to blame. If people are concerned about the JavaScript thing there is an easy answer: develop the non-JS version of everything *first*. Then you have a working, accessible feature, which you can then choose to spice up with JS or whatever else if the cost is deemed worthy. Usually, you'll need the non-JS markup there anyway to build it. Regards, Damian Edwards MSysDev Readify | Senior Consultant, Technical Specialist (Web) Microsoft MVP<https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Damian.Edwards>: ASP/ASP.NET M: 0448 545 868 | E: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> | C: [email protected]<sip:[email protected]> | W: www.readify.net<http://www.readify.net/> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Wednesday, 2 December 2009 3:12 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: RE: Our new silverlight site This doesn't underpin the rationale as to why plug-ins/JavaScript based solutions are deemed inaccessible. For instance, key wording: Accessibility does not require that all pages be limited to plain text. More sophisticated and innovative pages can and should also be made accessible. In general, this involves provision of alternatives to an otherwise inaccessible feature, rather than any requirement to avoid innovative design. Provided there is an alternative route for an end-user to consumer the same amount of content is deemed fair. Its actually a very gray area as to what equality and experience is, one i'd imagine that if one was to kick of a test case in Australian judicial system, it would be a very expensive exercise to undertake. The reason why Sydney 2000 site was won, was in reality due to absolute no alternative experience or "routed" experience being provided by users of a disabled nature. From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Damian Edwards Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 7:58 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: RE: Our new silverlight site Btw, see http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/standards/www_3/www_3.html for details. Regards, Damian Edwards MSysDev Readify | Senior Consultant, Technical Specialist (Web) Microsoft MVP<https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Damian.Edwards>: ASP/ASP.NET M: 0448 545 868 | E: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> | C: [email protected]<sip:[email protected]> | W: www.readify.net<http://www.readify.net/> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Damian Edwards Sent: Wednesday, 2 December 2009 2:56 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: RE: Our new silverlight site Well in Australia it's law. The federal Disability Discrimination Act states you can't discriminate based on someone's disability. This includes websites. The body charged with enforcing this is the Australian Human Rights Commission. They use the WCAG 1.0 standard as their baseline for assessing a site's accessibility, level AA to be exact. That level states that all functions of the site must be available with scripts & plug-ins disabled. So, if the site is for an Australian organisation or individual, or hosted in Australia, and the core features of your site don't work with JS or plug-ins disabled, you're breaking the law. Regards, Damian Edwards MSysDev Readify | Senior Consultant, Technical Specialist (Web) Microsoft MVP<https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Damian.Edwards>: ASP/ASP.NET M: 0448 545 868 | E: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> | C: [email protected]<sip:[email protected]> | W: www.readify.net<http://www.readify.net/> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Winston Pang Sent: Wednesday, 2 December 2009 11:58 AM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Our new silverlight site I do admire that gray's online can gracefully degrade so well. But as much as we'd all like to design our sites to cater for every population, are customers even willing to pay more to have support for non-javascript users, I've found that development companies, all want to minimise development cost, to have a bigger profit cut. It's just so sad sometimes. On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Tatham Oddie <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Yahoo have a bunch of data around this. During the development of graysonline.com<http://graysonline.com> we decided to support non-JavaScript users because they represented a significant enough percentage of our user base. Try it - disable JS in your browser and everything will still work. Progressive enhancement is the only way to develop for the web. :) Thanks, Tatham Oddie au mob: +61 414 275 989, us cell: +1 213 422 7068, skype: tathamoddie, landline: +61 2 8011 3982, fax: +61 2 9475 5172 my business: tixi.com.au<http://tixi.com.au> - Ticketing without the dramas -----Original Message----- From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Scott Barnes Sent: Wednesday, 2 December 2009 11:41 AM To: ozSilverlight Subject: RE: Our new silverlight site 7% where did you get that stat from? Is that 7% geo-specific? in that would say China bump that number into the higher 7 percentile bracket, meanwhile 90% of the US is in the lower 2%. Assuming its a flat 7% across all countries, now comes the potential vs reality question. In that out of that 7% what is the potential of buying / actionable customer base vis the reality of 7% of users not caring? If i said to you that i can reach 400million customers tomorrow in total, and yield say 48% return on actionable events, vs i can target 1billion tomorrow with a 48% click through, how would that change your ROI assessment? What works for Honda doesn't necessarily work for Ford is my point :) ________________________________________ From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of David Connors [[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 4:34 PM To: ozSilverlight Subject: Re: Our new silverlight site 2009/12/2 Scott Barnes <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> Most of the research I've read / conducted around "plugins + risk" has constantly shown that the average user will install anything put before them provided they get access to the context of what they were seeking. 400million+ installs of Silverlight testifies to this behavior. If you use javascript you lose up to 7% of users because their browsers either don't run it, have it turned off or have McAfee/Norton/Whatever "screw with my Internet experience 2009 edition" installed. Let me explain that to you in another way: If you are going to sell $1 000 000 worth of stuff in a year on your site, then you will be immediately flushing $70 000 of your revenue down the can. If you're paying $ to acquire a lead, you're throwing out $7 in every $100 of your EDM budget. And I'm just talking about JS. Sending out marketing and then presenting customers with an Install button instead of a sales call to action is crazy. Don't get me wrong, SL and Flash have their place and I love kongregate.com<http://kongregate.com><http://kongregate.com> - but as an adjunct, not an impediment to a transaction. -- David Connors ([email protected]<mailto:[email protected]><mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>) Software Engineer Codify Pty Ltd - www.codify.com<http://www.codify.com><http://www.codify.com> Phone: +61 (7) 3210 6268 | Facsimile: +61 (7) 3210 6269 | Mobile: +61 417 189 363 V-Card: https://www.codify.com/cards/davidconnors Address Info: https://www.codify.com/contact _______________________________________________ ozsilverlight mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight _______________________________________________ ozsilverlight mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://prdlxvm0001.codify.net/mailman/listinfo/ozsilverlight
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