On Friday, February 04, 2011 Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> Hi Serguei,
>
>>>>> This is false.
> ...
> I am still waiting for the argument why it is false, as you
> have argued in a previous message...
It was Julian (sse the attached mail) - you got the wrong man :)
Best wishes -
S.Osokine.
4 Feb 2011.
-----Original Message-----
From: p2p-hackers-boun...@lists.zooko.com
[mailto:p2p-hackers-boun...@lists.zooko.com] On Behalf Of Henry Sinnreich
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 2:13 PM
To: theory and practice of decentralized computer networks
Subject: Re: [p2p-hackers] What we should build for the Egyptian (and other)
protesters
Hi Serguei,
>>>> This is false. Egypt cut ALL Internet traffic including mobile. Having said
>>>> this the only solution is an AD-HOC network built with existing hardware w/
>>>> internet gateways somewhere along the path. This technology has been around
>>>> for quite some time. The downside is that it takes an incredible amount of
>>>> effort to daisy chain home and office routers in a manner that will "act"
>>>> like the Internet.
I am still waiting for the argument why it is false, as you have argued in a
previous message, to use mobile devices like phones and tablets in mesh.
Especially, since as pointed out here in this discussion, in crowded
environments, where most people may carry a mobile device anyway.
IMO, some Wi-Fi devices may possibly be lucky and reach the Internet via a
fixed router somewhere, such as in a nearby hotel where somebody has also
satellite access.
Or did we miss-communicate?
Last but not least, what are the pros and cons of Wi-Fi vs. Bluetooth?
Can you explain?
Thanks, Henry
On 2/4/11 3:46 PM, "Serguei Osokine" <serguei.osok...@efi.com> wrote:
> On Friday, February 04, 2011 David Barrett wrote:
>> That's true for piracy *and* communication: neither can get mass
>> adoption without seamless internet compatibility. A pirate mesh
>> needs to fall back on the internet when it can't find content
>> locally, and the communication network should only fall back to
>> the mesh when it can't communicate globally.
>
> Most certainly. All I'm saying that the system that "offers to set up
> a DHT or even, ad hoc mesh network -- or even a "sneakernet" -- if it
> detects the internet has stopped functioning" most likely won't be
> used by anyone if it does not offer any clear advantages even when
> the Internet is present. People would deploy it only if they can use
> it to stream movies or something even when the Internet is working.
>
> Besides, if you won't excercise your mesh code even under the normal
> conditions, it most likely simply won't work when you'll need it to.
> Simply because you'll have the bugs in it that will go undetected if
> you won't be testing it all the time in a real-scale deployment. So
> I have a feeling that "switch to mesh when SHTF" is simply not a very
> realistic scenario, both from software development standpoint and from
> the user adoption one. You have to find some compelling reasons why
> people would want to install and use it long before that - and when
> it turns out that after throwing the Big Switch this app still allows
> you to do quite a few things within the mesh coverage area, you will
> already have the sizable installed base of instantly operational code.
>
> In fact, in places like airplanes and beaches you might find yourself
> pleasantly surprised even long before the Internet stops functioning.
> Sure, it will also help demonstrators to organize flashmobs in Upper
> Lampusia - but only if they will already have it working by the moment
> when they will actually need it.
>
> Best wishes -
> S.Osokine.
> 4 Feb 2011.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: p2p-hackers-boun...@lists.zooko.com
> [mailto:p2p-hackers-boun...@lists.zooko.com] On Behalf Of David Barrett
> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 12:37 PM
> To: p2p-hackers@lists.zooko.com
> Subject: Re: [p2p-hackers] What we should build for the Egyptian (and other)
> protesters
>
> On 02/04/2011 12:02 PM, Serguei Osokine wrote:
>> http://blog.quinthar.com/2011/01/how-piracy-will-hyperlocalize-with-mesh.html
>>
>> - albeit with software radio instead of the existing wi-fi hardware.
>>
>> So David, since this mesh hyperlocalization was your own idea, I'm
>> not sure - why would you suggest that ther's no compelling value in
>> mesh networks, even with normally functioning Internet? Except for
>> this pesky ubiquitous wi-fi encryption, of course...
>
> I'm pro-mesh for local activity. Piracy is best done locally (for both
> performance *and* security reasons) so is best done over a mesh. In
> other words, mesh piracy can be *better* than internet piracy.
>
> Global communication, on the other hand, is best done with the internet.
> Mesh communication is *worse* than internet communication, at least
> over large distances.
>
> Ultimately, we should use the best tool for the job. The internet is
> really frickin' good; we should use it whenever it's available and
> preferable.
>
> That's true for piracy *and* communication: neither can get mass
> adoption without seamless internet compatibility. A pirate mesh needs
> to fall back on the internet when it can't find content locally, and the
> communication network should only fall back to the mesh when it can't
> communicate globally.
>
> -david
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Best wishes -
>> S.Osokine.
>> 4 Feb 2011.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: p2p-hackers-boun...@lists.zooko.com
>> [mailto:p2p-hackers-boun...@lists.zooko.com] On Behalf Of Alen Peacock
>> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 10:55 AM
>> To: theory and practice of decentralized computer networks
>> Subject: Re: [p2p-hackers] What we should build for the Egyptian (and other)
>> protesters
>>
>> I'd always hoped that a global ad-hoc wireless network would spring
>> from something like MIT's RoofNet
>> (http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/roofnet/doku.php).
>>
>> There's still a lot of academic research into ad-hoc networks, but I'm
>> not aware of anyone really pursuing something like this in the
>> commercial space -- anyone been following closer than me?
>>
>> Alen
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Serguei Osokine
>> <serguei.osok...@efi.com> wrote:
>>> On Friday, February 04, 2011 wrote:
>>>> The only way something like this will take off is if it provides
>>>> some *very* compelling value even when the internet is functioning
>>>> normally.
>>>
>>> Two things that spring to mind first are CB-like (as in "CB radio")
>>> anonymous contacts with people who are in the vicinity, and the p2p
>>> traffic anonymization through local relay chains. 802.11 typically
>>> has plenty of spare bandwitdth, being much faster than your normal
>>> ISP broadband link, so you can have, say, five-hop relays without
>>> any service quality degradation whatsoever. Kind of like local Tor,
>>> except that in 802.11 space you're not paying for forwarding traffic
>>> with your own service quality, and tracking the ad-hoc MAC-address
>>> routing is pretty challenging for an adversary.
>>>
>>> Of course, 802.11 traffic is routinely encrypted these days, so that
>>> might be a bit of a challenge - but this challenge is present in any
>>> ad-hoc scenario.
>>>
>>> Best wishes -
>>> S.Osokine.
>>> 4 Feb 2011.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: p2p-hackers-boun...@lists.zooko.com
>>> [mailto:p2p-hackers-boun...@lists.zooko.com] On Behalf Of David Barrett
>>> Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 9:12 AM
>>> To: theory and practice of decentralized computer networks
>>> Subject: Re: [p2p-hackers] What we should build for the Egyptian (and other)
>>> protesters
>>>
>>> On 02/04/2011 08:58 AM, Julian Cain wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is false. Egypt cut ALL Internet traffic including mobile. Having said
>>>> this the only solution is an AD-HOC network built with existing hardware w/
>>>> internet gateways somewhere along the path. This technology has been around
>>>> for quite some time. The downside is that it takes an incredible amount of
>>>> effort to daisy chain home and office routers in a manner that will "act"
>>>> like the Internet. This is the only solution to a complete
>>>> government/corporate takeover. Build a new Internet with existing hardware
>>>> that gateways users into the public Internet.
>>>
>>> Just to clarify, did Egypt cut *domestic* phone and internet, or just
>>> *international*? For example, if I had a server inside Egypt, using an
>>> Egyptian domain, could users inside Egypt generally access it?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Most home routers can perform this either by extending the network or
>>>> bridging networks.
>>>
>>> The only way something like this will take off is if it provides some
>>> *very* compelling value even when the internet is functioning normally.
>>> Otherwise it'll always be relegated to being a tiny fringe project.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think a better approach is to prepare a system that uses the internet
>>> when it's available (as it almost always is), but then offers to set up
>>> a DHT or even, ad hoc mesh network -- or even a "sneakernet" -- if it
>>> detects the internet has stopped functioning.
>>>
>>> For example, imagine that everybody's mobile Twitter device, upon
>>> discovering a loss of connection to twitter.com, offered to connect to
>>> the "BlueTooth mesh". In high-density environments like a protest, I
>>> imagine it could actually work. Then all the laptops that had domestic
>>> internet access establish a DHT (perhaps they quietly had it established
>>> all along) and bridge the various bluetooth meshes that have sprung up
>>> around the nation. And at that time also mention that it can just
>>> "manually synchronize" using a USB keydrive or MP3 player.
>>>
>>> But all this needs to be kept quiet, totally automated, and entirely
>>> unobtrusive in normal operation; it can't bother people to even consider
>>> these options when the internet is available, because the internet is so
>>> much more convenient to use. Nobody will care about any of these
>>> features, and they'll be an active *demerit* to the application that
>>> *reduces* its adoption -- up until everybody absolutely depends on them.
>>>
>>> -david
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 1, 2011, at 3:32 PM, Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> These are useful thoughts at the p2p and application levels.
> There is more to it however:
>
> * Application level - as below, possibly
> * P2P layer - as below, possibly
> * UDP/IP/Data Link/Physical - is missing and here is what may work:
>
> All users to have at least their cell phones equipped with a global standard
> compliant p2p UA and all 5 + p2p layers of the IP protocol stack. Even if
> all the network infrastructure fails due to "main made" :-) or natural
> disasters, users within near wireless range could still communicate as long
> as their battery will last.
This is false. Egypt cut ALL Internet traffic including mobile. Having said
this the only solution is an AD-HOC network built with existing hardware w/
internet gateways somewhere along the path. This technology has been around for
quite some time. The downside is that it takes an incredible amount of effort
to daisy chain home and office routers in a manner that will "act" like the
Internet. This is the only solution to a complete government/corporate
takeover. Build a new Internet with existing hardware that gateways users into
the public Internet.
Most home routers can perform this either by extending the network or bridging
networks.
> If lucky, some of the peers may even have
> Internet connectivity, thus serving as gateway for other users, albeit with
> some congestion.
>
> The key is all mobile phones and other devices to communicate in a global
> standards compliant way. This would require all mobile phone and other
> device manufacturer to include such a global standard compliant capability.
> To specify the standard, at least the IEEE, IETF and W3C would need to
> cooperate for consistency across all the 6 layers, considering p2p as a
> (sub) layer as well.
>
> Last but not least, to overcome the pushback from many parties who may not
> like it.
>
> The most promising approach would be to start such a project in academic
> and/or other R&D organizations and make it publicly available, as has
> happened for the early Internet.
>
> There are some IEEE papers on this topic, but accessible only for pay :-(
>
> My two cents,
>
> Henry
>
>
> On 1/31/11 5:35 PM, "David Barrett" <dbarr...@quinthar.com> wrote:
>
>> Egypt appears to have cut all internet connectivity with the rest of the
>> world in an attempt to quell its use in organizing protests. The only
>> reason this makes any sense is if the tools used to organize the
>> protests (Twitter, Facebook, Gmail, etc) are hosted outside Egypt.
>>
>> To this you might say "Let's just host protest-organizing tools on
>> servers inside protest-likely nations in anticipation of them using this
>> strategy again." But that won't work because odds are the government
>> would just seize all protest-organizing servers within their borders.
>>
>> So the only protest-tools that will continue to work reliably are those
>> that continue to work without access to the outside world, without
>> relying on locally-hosted servers, and *without even relying on the
>> internet at all*. It's a tall order, but here's how I'd do it.
>>
>> 1) Recognize that this service needs to be used in the good days, such
>> that there is adequate distribution already in place when the bad days
>> happen. THIS IS THE HARDEST PART. I say this in all caps because this
>> is why no meaningful system like this exists today: the people most
>> likely to build it are too obsessed with esoteric technical problems
>> than solving the issues that actually matter in the real world.
>> Asymmetric, anonymized, mesh-distributed, onionskin-routed communication
>> doesn't mean anything if nobody uses it. So before even thinking about
>> the technology, we need to think how to make it relevant to users who
>> *aren't* protesting (yet).
>>
>> 2) At an absolute minimum, it needs to be no worse than then existing
>> alternatives. So if it's going to replicate Twitter, it needs to be at
>> *least* as good as Twitter, otherwise everybody will use the *real*
>> Twitter (until it's turned off by their local neighborhood dictator).
>> On way to be better than Twitter is to actually be better than Twitter.
>> Good luck with that. Another way is to just make your tool post to
>> Twitter. I think that's a much better idea: if this tool (let's call it
>> "anoninet" just for kicks) offers some Twitter-like functionality, it
>> should be completely compatible with the real Twitter in the
>> 99.99999999999% of situations where the real Twitter is actually
>> available. Same goes for Facebook, Flickr, etc.
>>
>> 3) Ok, so anoninet's primary value in "good times" is starting to take
>> shape: it's a one-stop-shop to post to all your social networks. So you
>> install this thing, type in all your passwords (You could store them
>> locally in some encrypted keychain decrypted by a master password, but
>> that's the sort of technomasturbation thinking that obscures real-world
>> requirements; in reality just store it unencrypted because those who
>> don't care don't care, and those who do should really just encrypt their
>> whole hard drive), then you can post status updates, photos, videos, and
>> everything will automatically go to the right place. Indeed, before you
>> even think about making this into some sort of resilient
>> protest-enabling tool, you should make this the best possible
>> social-network posting tool. (Because if it's not that, then nobody
>> will have it installed when they want it most.) I'd suggest emphasizing
>> how this thing works even with unreliable internet, essentially letting
>> you queue up everything locally and it does background uploading as the
>> network becomes available. Similarly, it downloads everything locally
>> for offline reading. Odds are your protest-likely environment has
>> shitty internet to start, so this feature will likely have immediate
>> value. Add in really good support for USB-connected devices (cameras,
>> videocams), and basically present it as the single best way to do social
>> networking in a nation with shitty internet.
>>
>> 4) Step 4 is to succeed with step (3). Don't even think of anything
>> else until you've done that. Seriously, it's a waste of your time and a
>> disservice to your users. (3) needs to be totally nailed and immensely
>> popular before anything else matters. I'd say something like 10% of
>> your target population needs to be using it before you consider continuing.
>>
>> 5) Once you've got huge distribution of your client-side
>> social-network-optimizer, then you can start to raise the bar. Because
>> it's targeted to environments that have expensive and/or unreliable
>> internet, P2P starts to sound interesting. Throw in a network-localized
>> DHT and build out a distribution network that "rides" on these other
>> networks. So every time they post to Twitter, Facebook, Flickr,
>> YouTube, or whatever -- they're also posting to anoninet. And when
>> another anoninet is reading your Twitter stream, somehow they detect
>> each other and rather than getting the data from Twitter (for example),
>> they get it directly via some localized P2P connection. Present this to
>> the user as faster, more reliable, and cheaper than getting it from the
>> *real* YouTube.
>>
>> 6) Quietly encrypt everything and tunnel over commonly-used ports.
>> Don't talk about this, just do it. Users don't care until they do, and
>> by then it's too late.
>>
>> 7) Ok, so at this point we have wide distribution of a very popular
>> social networking tool that uses a localized P2P mesh as an optimized
>> fallback to the major global tools. Its major advantage is it works
>> over networks that are slow, unreliable, or expensive. This'll save you
>> in the Egypt case; these users would continue using the tools they
>> already use, to talk to the people they already talk with, and
>> everything will continue functioning as normal. They won't be able to
>> talk with the rest of the world, but they *will* be able to talk amongst
>> themselves, which is the important thing. Furthermore, because it's all
>> P2P, there are no servers to seize, and because it's all encrypted over
>> common ports, it's indistinguishable from all other encrypted traffic.
>>
>> 8) However, if this had existed in Egypt, odds are Egypt would have just
>> shut down the internet, period. If a dictator is willing kill you, odds
>> are they wouldn't blink at turning off your email. So how to make this
>> work without internet? The answer is: make it incredibly easy to batch
>> and retransmit data like Fidonet back in the day. So when shit is
>> *really* going down, you whip out your favorite 4GB, 32GB, or 640GB USB
>> drive and just sync your local repository (remember how everything was
>> conveniently cached locally for fast offline access?) with the device.
>> Optimize it to sync the most popular content first, basically ensuring
>> that the most intersting/important message is also the most widely and
>> redundantly distributed.
>>
>> 9) Finally, this needs to spit out an installable copy of itself to
>> whatever removable media is available. This way when the shit starts to
>> *really* go down, as people realize the true value of this system it can
>> spread fast to the people who need it.
>>
>> Voila. A tool that supports communication amongst protesters even in
>> the face of total internet blackout. Some other random thoughts:
>>
>> - Ideally it'd piggyback on existing credentials. So when you install
>> this thing you don't need to think "I'm creating a new account".
>> Rather, you just install this thing, type in your Twitter username and
>> password, and whatever giant asymmetric keypair it creates internally is
>> just some nameless thing associated with that Twitter account. (And you
>> might have multiple.)
>>
>> - This thing needs to broadcast itself via existing networks in a
>> totally transparent way, so if we're both users and I read your Twitter
>> stream, I should know you're also a user without you ever telling me.
>> The first way that comes to mind is this thing could watermark your
>> profile image with maybe a digital signature (or perhaps just jam it
>> into some sort of extra field in the image). Then when I follow you, my
>> client sees the watermark, reaches out to the DHT, sees that you're
>> signed in (or not), and establishes a NAT-tunneled P2P connection directly.
>>
>> - Social networks are particularly good for this sort of architecture as
>> they map well to the "publish/subscribe" model. This works easily on a
>> P2P network (you register yourself with the DHT by name and
>> keyword/hashtag, and then when you post there everybody who is
>> "following" you or a particular hashtag gets your data), as well as
>> create an implicit "value" metric for use when synchronizing data in
>> "sneakernet mode" (publishers/hashtags with a high follower count are
>> assumed to be more valuable and thus beat out less-popular content).
>>
>> - This sort of system actually isn't that useful to terrorists,
>> criminals, drug-dealers, and so on because it's designed for mass public
>> communication (not indvidual private communications). Granted, nothing
>> in this protects the individual from being targeted, but that's an
>> entirely different problem. (And I wager one that could be layered on
>> top of this in a straightforward manner.)
>>
>> In all honesty, this isn't that hard a thing to build. One dude could
>> do it. I could personally do it, and know several others who could as
>> well. But I'm busy. Hopefully a better person than me with more time
>> on their hands will pick up on this and do what needs to be done. The
>> world will thank them for it, though its dictators won't.
>>
>> -david
>> My blog (including this post) is at http://quinthar.com
>> Follow me at http://twitter.com/quithar
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