Helmut, you wrote, “Peirce did not write much about interpreters.”
A quick search of Peirce texts gives over 100 hits for “interpreter”. Of course it is not a waste of time to read writers other than Peirce. What I said was that it’s a waste of time to debate about “Peirce’s way of thinking” with people who don’t want to discuss what Peirce actually wrote, but prefer their own versions of what Peirce thought over his versions. If you want to discuss a “sign-as-event, which would be a real thing and include the real things utterer and interpreter” whatever that is, go ahead. But if you want to know what Peirce thought about it, then find what he wrote about it (if you can) and read it. And let us know what you find. Gary f. From: Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> Sent: 9-Jun-20 12:34 To: tabor...@primus.ca Cc: peirce-l@list.iupui.edu; g...@gnusystems.ca Subject: Aw: Re: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce's Way of Thinking (was Theory and Analysis of Semeiosis) Gary F., Edwina, List, Isn´t it so, that there are topics, about which Peirce did not write so much, but other writers did? For example, the online "Commens Dictionary" is named after the commens, which was a major topic of the last discussions, but if you look it up in the dictionary, there is only one entry about it (the "commens"), and the three interpretants effectual, intentional, communicational, that accord to the three interpreters utterer, interpreter, and both combined. Peirce did not write much about interpreters. So I think it is useful to compare him with e.g. Uexküll and systems theoreticians. For the advanced I think it also is good to compare Peirce´s mathematics and relation logic with other mathematics. So I think, it is not a waste of time for new list members to not only read Peirce, but- not "advance" and "channel", but compare his thoughts with the thoughts of others. Because new list members may know other philosophers from school or from voluntary reading, and not yet Peirce so well. I still am struggeling with the two concepts of sign-as-representation, which is "not a real thing" versus sign-as-event, which would be a real thing and include the real things utterer and interpreter. I am close to asking myself, is the more or less complete ignorance of the latter concept not a hidden form of dualism?? Best, Helmut 09. Juni 2020 um 16:57 Uhr "Edwina Taborsky" <tabor...@primus.ca <mailto:tabor...@primus.ca> > wrote: Gary F, I'll disagree with you. I think that debates about method are important. The only 'method' I've seen that JAS outlines, is to provide quotations from Peirce texts. But does interpretation of these texts consist only of repeating them and declaring that 'it means this'? Rather Saussurian. Is such a method enough to validate that particular interpretation? As some of us have been saying, as a method - it is weak, and requires real life pragmatics [Secondness] examples. Therefore - methodology is important. So- one can have one's own ideology about semiosis - and, quite frankly, one can support this personal ideology with many quotations from Peirce. BUT, these quotations can be a complete misinterpretation of what Peirce was really saying, because the quotations, lifted from the page, can take on a new meaning in this 'new page'. That is - a lot of what we see here is all about 'special interests' .. Now - who can evaluate whether these 'interpretations' are valid to Peirce, or valid for the personal 'special interest' ideology? That's not a simple task. When some of us, for example, ask repeatedly for real world examples of the interpretations offered - and don't get them, are we supposed to accept that the conclusions of this rather authoritarian method [I say this, and so, it is so] - must be accepted as valid? Jon Awbrey's recent outline of methods was, I felt, rather important and relevant to this situation. With regard to the debate between Robert and JAS - I don't see that it came to a 'natural end' [whatever that means]. It ended because the two participants have extremely different views both on Peircean semiosis, and on the methods of arriving at those views - and could come to no common ground. Yes, they were civil about it, and nodded graciously and said nice things about each other - but the real issue was: two completely different views on Peircean semiosis AND methodology. Edwina On Tue 09/06/20 10:04 AM , g...@gnusystems.ca <mailto:g...@gnusystems.ca> sent: Jon A.S., list, I can’t speak for Gary the moderator or anyone else on the list, but I think the principles you’ve outlined here are pretty much self-evident for any serious Peirce scholarship, and I would certainly prefer not to be subjected to further debates about them. If a list member feels that he or she can advance the understanding of Peirce’s thought by somehow ‘channeling’ him instead of carefully reading and quoting what he actually wrote (and citing its context), they are free to say so and to apply the results to whatever special interests they have; but the rest of us are free to ignore such posts and any threads that may result from them. Personally I’d like to extend this a bit further and suggest that experienced list members are obligated to ignore the kind of “methodological criticisms” you refer to. I hope, in other words, that list members who feel drawn into debate on such issues do their debating offlist, as you suggest, and save the rest of us the trouble of skimming and deleting such debates. I suggest this because such debates are a complete waste of time, not so much for those of us who ignore and delete them, but especially for newer members of the list who may not immediately recognize their futility. They deserve more substantial content on the Peirce list, and indeed require it if they are going to learn as much from participation onlist as you and I did in our early years with it. Your recent exchange with Robert, for instance, did feature some substantial content, and didn’t get drowned out with irrelevant debates — and came to a natural end before devolving into fruitless repetition. For the sake of those relatively new to the list, I’d like to see more of that. And for my part, I’ll pledge not to make any more meta-posts like this one. Gary f. } Entering is the source, and the source means from beginning to end. [Dogen] { <http://gnusystems.ca/wp/> http://gnusystems.ca/wp/ }{ living the transition From: Jon Alan Schmidt Sent: 8-Jun-20 20:51 To: peirce-l@list.iupui.edu <mailto:peirce-l@list.iupui.edu> Subject: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce's Way of Thinking (was Theory and Analysis of Semeiosis) John, List: I will spell out my position one more time, but I continue to find these strictly methodological criticisms tiresome, and I suspect that many others on the List would prefer not to be subjected to further debates about them. I respectfully request that in the future any such exchanges be kept off-List. JFS: But when trying to understand what Peirce wrote, it's essential to interpret his words according to his way of thinking. The only way to ascertain Peirce's way of thinking in the first place is by interpreting his words. JFS: The reason why you always agree with Jon is that you both happen to think in the same way. Gary R. does not always agree with me, and we do not think in exactly the same way. What we do have in common are certain methodological principles for interpreting Peirce or any other author, which are very widely accepted within the entire community of scholars. JFS: Robert and I are not claiming that your way is a bad way. We're just saying that it's not the way Peirce was thinking. Therefore, it's unreliable as a method for deriving any conclusions from his writings. Robert can speak for himself, and no one can authoritatively declare what is and is not "the way Peirce was thinking" except by quoting his own words. Again, his writings constitute the only definitive evidence available, so we must appeal to them when making our respective cases. JFS: I strongly agree with Robert's objections to a "literalist' method of just quoting words. Robert raised no particular objections, he simply made an offhand reference to my alleged "incessant 'literalist' activism." In any case, what alternative would somehow better support one's interpretations of Peirce's writings than quoting his own words? After all, someone once <https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/arc/peirce-l/2020-04/msg00118.html> asserted (albeit without textual warrant) that "Peirce would cringe at most, if not all attempts to paraphrase his thoughts," and then later <https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/arc/peirce-l/2020-05/msg00301.html> claimed never to have "seen any paraphrase of Peirce's words that was clearer or more precise than his own." If both quotes and paraphrases are disallowed, then what else is left? No reputable scholar would seriously advocate such an impossibly restrictive approach. JFS: Since Jon has an engineering background, he would have had enough training in science and mathematics that he could learn to appreciate Peirce's way of thinking. I have indeed learned to appreciate Peirce's way of thinking, which is why I have spent so much time contemplating it and then writing about it, both here and in various publications. In particular, my series of articles on "The Logic of Ingenuity" (beginning <https://www.structuremag.org/?p=10373> here , with links to the other three parts) is a direct application of it to the way of thinking that we engineers routinely employ. Peirce even did some structural calculations himself in the mid-1890s, for George S. Morison's proposed (but never constructed) bridge over the Hudson River (see <https://www.structuremag.org/?p=11048> here and <https://www.structuremag.org/?p=11401> here). JFS: Unfortunately, Peirce's late writings present his conclusions without going into the details of how he derived his results. Those writings are good for learning Peirce's conclusions, but they don't show how to draw any further inferences from them. I strongly disagree. Since most of those late writings are in various manuscripts and letters, including unsent drafts, they do not merely "present his conclusions," they embody his way of thinking. The images of his original pages are especially enlightening, showing his self-corrections, marginal notes, and various false starts. Like me and many others, Peirce wrote to find out what he thought, going so far as to state that his inkstand was as essential to his thinking as any lobe of his brain. Oops, that is a paraphrase, so here is a quote of the relevant passage for good measure. CSP: A psychologist cuts out a lobe of my brain (nihil animale me alienum puto) and then, when I find I cannot express myself, he says, "You see your faculty of language was localized in that lobe." No doubt it was; and so, if he had filched my inkstand, I should not have been able to continue my discussion until I had got another. Yea, the very thoughts would not come to me. So my faculty of discussion is equally localized in my inkstand. It is localization in a sense in which a thing may be in two places at once. On the theory that the distinction between psychical and physical phenomena is the distinction between final and efficient causation, it is plain enough that the inkstand and the brain-lobe have the same general relation to the functions of the mind. (CP 7.366, 1902) Studying Peirce's own words is the best--really, the only--method for learning his way of thinking. Accordingly, quoting Peirce's own words is the best--really, the only--method for supporting one's interpretations of his writings. Regards, Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. 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