-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David A.
Desrosiers
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2003 5:56 PM
To: Plucker General List
Subject: RE: bittorrent/mirrors
> If it so immoral to charge for your time and energy why do you charge
> your boss to pay your wages? I am sure you make money somehow. Why not
> work for them for free?
--- you ---
You really don't want to get into this with me, especially me.
--- me ---
Actually, I do. That's probably why I am here. I wasn't looking for this
discussion and infact tried 3 times to not have it. But it seemed like
I kept getting invited back and so I took it as a sign to stay. You're
the authority on this list so you hold control as to when to end the
conversation.
--- you ---
I have been officially unemployed for 697 days. That's 100
weeks,
as of today. I do not have a "boss", and I do not charge them for my
time.
On contracting projects I work on, I get paid for my insight, my code,
my
time, and my hard work. This is called trade. I trade my time and skills
for something someone else needs. It is a mutually-agreeable
arrangement.
--- me ---
And what then is wrong with doing this with the software you are
writing? If you define it as being 'worth' say, as a random number, 5
dollars, to download your software. If they choose to download it then
its mutually agreeable.
For your contracts, do you always let your contractors define exactly
what they are going to pay you? Wouldn't they always want it for free?
Do you ever turn down an offer because you feel its unfair to you? This
is the same thing with offering your software to the public for a
reasonable charge. Esepcially since YOU get to define reasonable.
--- you ---
If I didn't have to pay for a mortgage, food, fuel bills, power,
bandwidth, and other things, I would certainly not feel bad working for
free, as long as it is something I believe in. In fact, a good
percentage
of my time is given away, gratis, to the community at large, on several
projects, mailing lists, websites, documents, and literally hundreds of
other things. I do these things gratis, because I believe in them, in
some
way or another. I don't require "payment" for things I believe in. Do
you
get paid to preach the word of God to people? I've read your website.
Would you find that immoral? Why do you do it for free?
--- me ---
But the point is you DO have mortgage, food, fuel bills, power bandwidth
and other things to pay for. You even have more bandwidth to allow the
direct download of your software to pay for but your choosing not to.
And I don't preach for free. I actually didn't realize I was preaching.
This is my natural mode of conversation with nearly everyone I meet. Its
how God has wired me and I don't shrink from it or try to hide it.
I serve God. And I get paid with my life. My needs are provided by those
around me that feel inclined to provide them and my wants are provided
by gifts also by those that feel like providing them. I havnt actually
been employed for over 6 years. (That's 300 weeks if we're counting) Not
even contract work and owe over twenty thousand dollars in debts to
people that I accrued through my drug abuse. Ive been told by the doctor
because of my mental condition from the drug abuse I cant work in the
public workforce without extreme supervision that nobody is really going
to provide and still pay me with an income. So if nothing else I envy
you that you CAN pay your own way in this world. I have to live my
entire life on gifts and handouts.
-- us --
> Or did you get your computer for free, your car or other mode of
> transportation for free, your house or other living area for free,
food
> on the table, clothes on your back, etc etc.
No, in fact I didn't. I worked hard to achieve those things,
because they are "required" here in the US, for basic transportation and
common decency to function in society. If society could function without
them, I would certainly go without. I've had to make a LOT of sacrifices
over the last few years, and I'm not about to sacrifice something I
believe in, just because someone else doesn't agree with it.
-- me --
What did I ask you to sacrifice?
-- us --
> If you had no need for money you wouldn't have such a problem paying
for
> a server to host the files directly. If you find it personally
revolting
> to be paid for YOUR time and energy then just take the money needed to
> pay for the server and donate the rest to a charitable organization of
> your choice.
Excuse me, I do. 50% of -every- donation I receive goes to the
FSF
(Free Software Foundation), to help fund -their- cause, which just
happens
to align well with the cause most of us believe in.. the freedom and
ongoing liberty of Free Software.
-- me --
So then my solution works, (I think someone else mentioned it to, I know
its not unique). Just take enough money to pay for the download server
and donate the rest to the FSF.
-- us --
> Just charge for http/ftp downloads. Then you could leave the
bittorrent
> up for people who want to mess with it but provide a quick and easy
> access for those that don't want to use it or don't trust it or for
> whatever reason object to its use.
I have a better idea. Distribute the files over BitTorrent
during
heavy load times as well as regular http downloads. If mirrors wish to
obtain the files, they can use the supplied BitTorrent links, and make
their own mirror. I'll be happy to link to it and advertise its location
on the Plucker website. If people don't wish to use BitTorrent (like
yourself), then they can wait until it appears on a mirror of their
choice
(assuming there is one), or not.
Oh wait, we're already doing that. Problem solved.
-- me --
And you measure your success how? By the number of people you turn away
because they don't want to mess around with third and fourth party
software just to get yours? And please try to show me numbers of how
successful you are at me. For every one person that comes to your site
that downloads it I gaurentee there is atleast one or two more that say.
"Sorry, not worth the effort." If you believed so much in the freedom of
your own software then you would be willing to let people who WANT to
pay for it PAY FOR IT so that they can download it too. THIS IS A MUTUAL
AGREEABLE ARANGEMENT. I am not asking you to do away with bittorrent
unless you feel inclined to do so. But just offer a paying alternative
for those that feel honor bound to pay for it and NOT use bittorrent.
Give them the choice. You want freedom? Give THEM freedom. Right now you
are forcing everyone into your definition of freedom, that's not
freedom, that's just dictatorship under a different name.
Ill give you an example from real life:
Soup kitchens. Soup kitchens are there to provide free meals to the
hungry. But they will not TURN AWAY someone that wants to pay. If that
person WANTS TO PAY then they allow them to pay and put the money
towards a good cause.
Im sure you have had situations in your life where you have done a
friend a favor and they have wanted to pay you. How hard did you fight
them to have them not pay you? Did you turn away that friend and take
back the gift because they refused to not not pay you?
Right now you are so high in your own mightyness about free software
that your blinded by your own version of greed, or sice we seem to share
a common vocabulary, self righteousness.
--- us ---
> Being that ive already gotten it working Id probably use bittorrent
the
> way I and several others on the list have described, as just a
download
> tool, but had I been been a first time user to the site and seen a 5
> dollar download option I may have gone with it instead.
This is because you completely misunderstand the technology, and
are used to "leeching", given your self-described jaded past of openly
and
knowingly violating copyright by illegally distributing commerical
software for download.
--- me ---
No, ive overcome that. I recognize the difference. I choose not to use
p2p solutions for two reasons.
1) It slows down someone elses connection to the internet on my cable
link and during prime time that can be quite noticeable and that is a
very unfair application of my bandwidth, never mind the fact that enough
of it and I can get kicked off the network. Never mind the countless
people (though not me thankfully) that are on pay to play cable that
purchases bandwidth by use.
Yeah, by forcing them to use p2p peer that uploads on its own your
COSTING THEM MONEY. Only that money is going to their cable company and
not to the FSF.
2) It DIRECTLY supports the 'leeching' that you are referring to in a
broader sense. It encourages more massive downloads and faster
distribution of stolen software. Case in point are the bittorent file
sites. They are nothing but listings of stolen property references. Even
if things such as redhat made it on the list I gaurentee it would be
flooded off within a day by even more references to music, video and
software files.
--- you ---
You can use BitTorrent as a downloading tool if you wish, but
even
if you wanted to just use it to download, it is still uploading while it
is downloading. In a very small way, you're still contributing and
uploading back to other BitTorrent users, whether you like it or not. It
doesn't download the whole file, -then- begin uploading it. It downloads
a
piece, then uploads that, and begins the upload/download process,
synchronously, until your full local file is downloaded. When you
disconnect, you've still contributed quite a bit back to other users by
uploading the pieces you already have.
--- me ---
That doesn't bother me as its impact on my system and the network is
negligible. It's the continued impact on the system over time that I
object to for reason 1. Reason 2 doesn't apply to this instance but to
the overall popularity instance. If I leave it up for the minute it
takes to download the file and I upload it 5 times to someone else. Ok.
That's nice. But if I left it up for an hour and uploaded 100 or more
times. I would be promoting bittorrent in a way that I would not be
comfortable with.
> Anyway if ive stepped over any boundaries let me know. I can get
> intense in conversations and not always guauge the receiver best. Ill
> apologize for any offenses that I may have made against you
personally.
No offense taken. I have a very thick skin.
--- you ---
I think you need to tone down your "My Way Is The Right Way(tm)"
diatribe. Insulting a group of users and developers who have produced
something -you- find useful, is not a good way to earn and keep friends
in
the community. You should know that from your own personal belief
system.
--- me ---
I'm not worried. Im confident the conversation went as intended. If you
know my belief system well then youll know that this could have (don't
claim to know that it actually was) a money changers in the temple
courts affair, Jesus spent a lot of his time pissing people off and it
has its time and place, especially if it gets people to think about
things they normaly don't think about. Sometimes ruffling a few
feathers or out and out burning them comes with the territory.
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