jgg, Is there something you did not understand about my previous post?
Where on earth would a 7 or 8 year old kid , or anyone else for that matter, obtain the "right" to recite the Pleadge of Alligence"? The "right" to NOT be forced to say it comes from the 1943 Supreme Court decision. This is simply ridiculous. It was written in 1892 to promote and sell a kid's magazine for God's sake! On Nov 19, 12:06 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gitmo is seen as a huge issue... But it only effect a few non US > citizens... Why is it a huge issue??? How it relates to an > individual's Rights... Likewise the case in NH... > > Does a Second grader have the Right to say the Pledge in his/her class- > room if it is student led??? If not, why does the "Right" NOT to say > the Pledge" strip all others their "Right" to say the Pledge"??? > Simple yet Fundamental questions are big deals... > > On Nov 19, 12:49 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > jgg, > > > I just simply do not see the big deal here. This is simply adults > > using school kids to score partisan political points. > > > Something MUCH more important than tripe like this would be to mandate > > American Civics & Government classes in all public schools starting in > > Jr. High School. > > > On Nov 19, 11:36 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > We have been through this history, it is the attempt in "not forcing" > > > anyone that got NO ONE the ability nor right to say the Pledge in the > > > classroom in this case.... When does the right of not saying the > > > Pledge dictate that the right to say the Pledge is restricted by > > > banning it in the classroom??? That is the issue Hollywood... It is > > > NOT a question of asking all to say the Pledge... > > > > On Nov 19, 12:26 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > jgg, > > > > > A little history for you. usgovinfo.about.com/cs/usconstituion/a/ > > > > pledgehist.htm > > > > > 1. Pledge of Alligence written in Sept. 1892 by francis Bellmay for > > > > "the Youth Companion" magazine on Boston, Ma. > > > > > 2. In 1923 the First National Flag conference in washington, D.c. > > > > voted the change the words "my flag" to "the falg of the United States > > > > of America". > > > > > 3. Congress recognized the Pledge in 1942. > > > > > 4. In 19423SCOTUS ruled no public school student could be forced to > > > > recite it. > > > > > 5. Thw words "under God" were added in 1954. > > > > > On Nov 19, 9:39 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > But that is what is being imposed on them now.. > > > > > > On Nov 18, 5:37 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > That's not what I proposed, is it? > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 4:07 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Some 2nd graders actual do, they have to miss out on recess to > > > > > > > say the > > > > > > > pledge... The vote is by showing up... > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 4:50 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > Fine, you say 6th graders are emotionally and intellectually > > > > > > > > mature > > > > > > > > enough to understand the significance of the pledge? > > > > > > > > Good, then let the kids take a vote by secret ballot as ti if > > > > > > > > THEY > > > > > > > > want to say the pledge in class every morning and leave the > > > > > > > > adults out > > > > > > > > of it. > > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 11:17 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > From the article > > > > > > > > > > >>> "We don't want to isolate children every day in their own > > > > > > > > > >>> classroom, or make them feel they're different," said > > > > > > > > > >>> Principal Michaela Martin. > > > > > > > > > > That is exactly what they are doing by requiring kids to go > > > > > > > > > elsewhere > > > > > > > > > to recite the pledge... The simplest solution is to have > > > > > > > > > the kids > > > > > > > > > say it in the classroom with those kids who don't... It > > > > > > > > > would be a > > > > > > > > > lesson in being tolerant of another's opinion in the Public > > > > > > > > > Square... > > > > > > > > > > >>> Isn't it simply the adults scoring political points for > > > > > > > > > >>> one side or the other by using the kids and this pledge? > > > > > > > > > > Ah yes, the "kids are too dumb to understanding" straw man... > > > > > > > > > As this > > > > > > > > > question applies to six graders also in this case, will you > > > > > > > > > say the > > > > > > > > > same about a 12 year old??? FYI there are kids as young as > > > > > > > > > 5 or 6 to > > > > > > > > > whom understanding of "God" or "Pledge" IS grasped... Do > > > > > > > > > not these > > > > > > > > > kids have the right to say the Pledge??? Or is it the agenda > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > adults with a particular POV who wish to impose the habit of > > > > > > > > > EXCLUDING GOD from the Public Square??? > > > > > > > > > > As to the purpose of the Pledge -- to instill a sense of duty > > > > > > > > > owed to > > > > > > > > > one's country and community... And that IS a valid > > > > > > > > > educational > > > > > > > > > goal... As valid as the demand that families of same sex > > > > > > > > > couples be > > > > > > > > > used as role models... The real issue here is WHOSE agenda > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > incorporated into the curriculum, the nutscases of the Left > > > > > > > > > does not > > > > > > > > > GOD or patriotism in the agenda on the whole... And that IS A > > > > > > > > > PROBLEM... > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 11:26 am, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe the question should be why does it matter to any > > > > > > > > > > rational person > > > > > > > > > > WHERE the pledge is said? > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone questioned at what age a kid is old enough to > > > > > > > > > > understand > > > > > > > > > > the significance of what the pledge means? Ask a 2rd grader > > > > > > > > > > to define > > > > > > > > > > the word "pledge" at certain ages is not the "pledge" > > > > > > > > > > simply like a > > > > > > > > > > "song" or "poem" they have memorized w/o understanding the > > > > > > > > > > meaning or > > > > > > > > > > significance? What is the real point here? Isn't it simply > > > > > > > > > > the adults > > > > > > > > > > scoring political points for one side or the other by using > > > > > > > > > > the kids > > > > > > > > > > and this pledge? > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 8:31 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > That Hollywood is the question in this matter... Do not > > > > > > > > > > > the students > > > > > > > > > > > who wish to say the Pledge have the right to do it in > > > > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > > > classroom? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 17, 6:36 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > jjg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beats the fuck out of me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 17, 3:23 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So why make the kids who want to say it go to the > > > > > > > > > > > > > gym... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 17, 3:52 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is all really simple. Kid wants to say it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fine, kid dosen't want > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to say it, fine. Someone is afraid a kid might be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > criticized for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either saying it or not saying it, toogh shit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's likfe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You DO know that the phrase "under God" was not an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > original part of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the pledge and was adding during the 1950"s "Oh my > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God the commie's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are going to get us" phase, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 17, 9:00 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a current Separation where Secularist are > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > seeking to enforce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their ban Religion from the Public Square... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The question is not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IF but when, where, and who... A side note, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > isn't having the kids > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who do not wish to say "under God" stay in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > classrooms while the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rest of the students go to the gym "isolating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them"??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20081114/NEWS/81114027 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Unlike other Pledge controversies, this one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> centers on how and where schoolchildren say > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> it, not whether they should be allowed to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In 1943, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schoolchildren can opt out > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of reciting the pledge for religious reasons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sixty-one years later, the court said a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > California father couldn't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > challenge the Pledge of Allegiance, reversing a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lower-court decision > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > saying teacher-led Pledge recitals in public > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schools were > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unconstitutional. That case involved an atheist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who didn't want his > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > third-grader to have to listen to the phrase > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "under God." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it didn't rule on the constitutionality of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > compulsory recitation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The brouhaha in the Vermont school began in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > September, when parent Ted > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tedesco began circulating petitions calling for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > its return as a daily > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > practice in the 19th-century schoolhouse, which > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > has 55 children in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > grades kindergarten through six. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > School officials agreed to resume the pledge as a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > daily exercise, but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in the classroom. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "We don't want to isolate children every day in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their own classroom, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or make them feel they're different," said > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Principal Michaela Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Instead, starting last week, a sixth grade > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > student was assigned to go > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > around to the four classrooms before classes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > started, gathering up > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > anyone who wanted to say it and then walking them > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > up creaky wooden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > steps to a second-floor gymnasium, where he led > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them in the pledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About half the students chose to participate, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > according to Martin.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. 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