jgg, Ok, I guess then kids have the "right" to sing a theme from a McDonalds commerical or their favorite kid's TV program as well. Like i said, this is ridiculous. I'll waste no futher time on the subject.
On Nov 19, 12:33 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Here Hollywood is where we fundamentally disagree... Of course > students have the "Right" to either say the Pledge OR not... It is > part of the 1st Amendment -- you know the part of "Free Speech" and > "Religious Expression"... The Constitution does not discriminate by > age in the 1st Amendment nor does SCOTUS... > > You however insist on rewriting the 1st Amendment to restrict the > these Rights due to age... BTW SCOTUS has opined student led Pledges > are Constitutional... > > On Nov 19, 1:25 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > jgg, > > > Is there something you did not understand about my previous post? > > > Where on earth would a 7 or 8 year old kid , or anyone else for that > > matter, obtain the "right" to recite the Pleadge of Alligence"? The > > "right" to NOT be forced to say it comes from the 1943 Supreme Court > > decision. > > > This is simply ridiculous. It was written in 1892 to promote and sell > > a kid's magazine for God's sake! > > > On Nov 19, 12:06 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Gitmo is seen as a huge issue... But it only effect a few non US > > > citizens... Why is it a huge issue??? How it relates to an > > > individual's Rights... Likewise the case in NH... > > > > Does a Second grader have the Right to say the Pledge in his/her class- > > > room if it is student led??? If not, why does the "Right" NOT to say > > > the Pledge" strip all others their "Right" to say the Pledge"??? > > > Simple yet Fundamental questions are big deals... > > > > On Nov 19, 12:49 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > jgg, > > > > > I just simply do not see the big deal here. This is simply adults > > > > using school kids to score partisan political points. > > > > > Something MUCH more important than tripe like this would be to mandate > > > > American Civics & Government classes in all public schools starting in > > > > Jr. High School. > > > > > On Nov 19, 11:36 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > We have been through this history, it is the attempt in "not forcing" > > > > > anyone that got NO ONE the ability nor right to say the Pledge in the > > > > > classroom in this case.... When does the right of not saying the > > > > > Pledge dictate that the right to say the Pledge is restricted by > > > > > banning it in the classroom??? That is the issue Hollywood... It is > > > > > NOT a question of asking all to say the Pledge... > > > > > > On Nov 19, 12:26 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > A little history for you. usgovinfo.about.com/cs/usconstituion/a/ > > > > > > pledgehist.htm > > > > > > > 1. Pledge of Alligence written in Sept. 1892 by francis Bellmay for > > > > > > "the Youth Companion" magazine on Boston, Ma. > > > > > > > 2. In 1923 the First National Flag conference in washington, D.c. > > > > > > voted the change the words "my flag" to "the falg of the United > > > > > > States > > > > > > of America". > > > > > > > 3. Congress recognized the Pledge in 1942. > > > > > > > 4. In 19423SCOTUS ruled no public school student could be forced to > > > > > > recite it. > > > > > > > 5. Thw words "under God" were added in 1954. > > > > > > > On Nov 19, 9:39 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > But that is what is being imposed on them now.. > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 5:37 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > That's not what I proposed, is it? > > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 4:07 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Some 2nd graders actual do, they have to miss out on recess > > > > > > > > > to say the > > > > > > > > > pledge... The vote is by showing up... > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 4:50 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, you say 6th graders are emotionally and > > > > > > > > > > intellectually mature > > > > > > > > > > enough to understand the significance of the pledge? > > > > > > > > > > Good, then let the kids take a vote by secret ballot as ti > > > > > > > > > > if THEY > > > > > > > > > > want to say the pledge in class every morning and leave the > > > > > > > > > > adults out > > > > > > > > > > of it. > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 11:17 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From the article > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> "We don't want to isolate children every day in their > > > > > > > > > > > >>> own classroom, or make them feel they're different," > > > > > > > > > > > >>> said Principal Michaela Martin. > > > > > > > > > > > > That is exactly what they are doing by requiring kids to > > > > > > > > > > > go elsewhere > > > > > > > > > > > to recite the pledge... The simplest solution is to > > > > > > > > > > > have the kids > > > > > > > > > > > say it in the classroom with those kids who don't... It > > > > > > > > > > > would be a > > > > > > > > > > > lesson in being tolerant of another's opinion in the > > > > > > > > > > > Public > > > > > > > > > > > Square... > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Isn't it simply the adults scoring political points > > > > > > > > > > > >>> for one side or the other by using the kids and this > > > > > > > > > > > >>> pledge? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah yes, the "kids are too dumb to understanding" straw > > > > > > > > > > > man... As this > > > > > > > > > > > question applies to six graders also in this case, will > > > > > > > > > > > you say the > > > > > > > > > > > same about a 12 year old??? FYI there are kids as young > > > > > > > > > > > as 5 or 6 to > > > > > > > > > > > whom understanding of "God" or "Pledge" IS grasped... > > > > > > > > > > > Do not these > > > > > > > > > > > kids have the right to say the Pledge??? Or is it the > > > > > > > > > > > agenda of > > > > > > > > > > > adults with a particular POV who wish to impose the > > > > > > > > > > > habit of > > > > > > > > > > > EXCLUDING GOD from the Public Square??? > > > > > > > > > > > > As to the purpose of the Pledge -- to instill a sense of > > > > > > > > > > > duty owed to > > > > > > > > > > > one's country and community... And that IS a valid > > > > > > > > > > > educational > > > > > > > > > > > goal... As valid as the demand that families of same sex > > > > > > > > > > > couples be > > > > > > > > > > > used as role models... The real issue here is WHOSE > > > > > > > > > > > agenda is > > > > > > > > > > > incorporated into the curriculum, the nutscases of the > > > > > > > > > > > Left does not > > > > > > > > > > > GOD or patriotism in the agenda on the whole... And that > > > > > > > > > > > IS A > > > > > > > > > > > PROBLEM... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 11:26 am, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe the question should be why does it matter to any > > > > > > > > > > > > rational person > > > > > > > > > > > > WHERE the pledge is said? > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone questioned at what age a kid is old enough > > > > > > > > > > > > to understand > > > > > > > > > > > > the significance of what the pledge means? Ask a 2rd > > > > > > > > > > > > grader to define > > > > > > > > > > > > the word "pledge" at certain ages is not the "pledge" > > > > > > > > > > > > simply like a > > > > > > > > > > > > "song" or "poem" they have memorized w/o understanding > > > > > > > > > > > > the meaning or > > > > > > > > > > > > significance? What is the real point here? Isn't it > > > > > > > > > > > > simply the adults > > > > > > > > > > > > scoring political points for one side or the other by > > > > > > > > > > > > using the kids > > > > > > > > > > > > and this pledge? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 18, 8:31 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That Hollywood is the question in this matter... Do > > > > > > > > > > > > > not the students > > > > > > > > > > > > > who wish to say the Pledge have the right to do it in > > > > > > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > > > > > classroom? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 17, 6:36 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jjg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beats the fuck out of me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 17, 3:23 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So why make the kids who want to say it go to the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gym... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 17, 3:52 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > jgg, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is all really simple. Kid wants to say it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fine, kid dosen't want > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to say it, fine. Someone is afraid a kid might > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be criticized for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > either saying it or not saying it, toogh shit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's likfe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You DO know that the phrase "under God" was not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > an original part of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the pledge and was adding during the 1950"s "Oh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my God the commie's > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are going to get us" phase, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 17, 9:00 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a current Separation where Secularist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > are seeking to enforce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > their ban Religion from the Public Square... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The question is not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IF but when, where, and who... A side note, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > isn't having the kids > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > who do not wish to say "under God" stay in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the classrooms while the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rest of the students go to the gym "isolating > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them"??? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20081114/NEWS/81114027 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Unlike other Pledge controversies, this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> one centers on how and where > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> schoolchildren say it, not whether they > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>> should be allowed to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In 1943, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schoolchildren can opt out > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of reciting the pledge for religious reasons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sixty-one years later, the court said a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > California father couldn't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > challenge the Pledge of Allegiance, reversing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > a lower-court decision > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > saying teacher-led Pledge recitals in public > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > schools were > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > unconstitutional. That case involved an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > atheist who didn't want his > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > third-grader to have to listen to the phrase > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "under God." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But it didn't rule on the > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
