(Before Holly jumps in to correct me, I am aware that Corinthians is from Paul, speaking to the Corinthians, but what Paul is speaking of, is of Christ, and what he conveyed.)
On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 12:12 PM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]>wrote: > Hey Mark!! > > Again, let me emphasize, that I am not the Biblical scholar of the group, > and obviously, I don't hold d a candle to you, Sage and others. This is my > impression, and I could be wrong, but a couple of examples of the symbolism > of which Christ spoke: > > * Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all > partake of the one loaf. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 > > And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which > is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." > *1 Corinthians 11:24 > "*In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new > covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of > me.*" 1 Corinthians 11:25. > > It is my (unqualified) opinion that The Eucharist in and of itself is > symbolic!! Where am I misguided here? How am I wrong?? > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > >> why yes I have. Show me ANYWHERE in scripture where communion is >> identified or even hinted at as being merely "symbolic". >> >> Ever "hear" of "symbolism" ??? would have furthered your point. >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Sage2 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> EVER HERE OF SYMBOLLISM ? ? ? >>> >>> ********************************************************************* >>> >>> >>> On Jun 21, 11:50 am, THE ANNOINTED ONE <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > All the recent talk of religion on the board (christian and Moslem) >>> > has lead me back to the Church of Gonz.... >>> > >>> > CHRISTIAN CANNIBALS >>> > An argument of why Christians are cannibals (and possibly vampires) >>> > from Christianity's own perspective >>> > by Jim Walker (an ex-cannibal) >>> > Originated: 07 January 2003 >>> > Additions: 10 July 2006 >>> > >>> > How many Christians realize that when they eat that wafer and drink >>> > the wine during communion service that they, in effect, practice >>> > cannibalism by the partaking in the eating of human flesh and blood? >>> > I certainly did not know that when I underwent communion in my >>> > religious days. It sounds so innocent and benign; "Communion" imparts >>> > the concept of sharing thoughts and feelings, or so I thought. Oh how >>> > the priests fooled me. They used other obscure terms too, like >>> > "Eucharist" and "Sacrament of the Last Supper." At no time did a >>> > priest or deacon explain to me that I would share in the communal >>> > eating of the human flesh and blood of Jesus. >>> > Cannibal: A person who eats the flesh of human beings. >>> > Since Jesus represents an actual human being, and I ate him, that made >>> > me a cannibal. And if you have ever undergone communion, then you too >>> > fall into that category. >>> > The Church tricked me and turned me into a cannibal! >>> > Not only did I drink blood and eat flesh, but they made me do it in >>> > front of a statue of a bloody corpse hanging by nails on two pieces of >>> > lumber, a representation of the human whom I had just eaten. (Imagine >>> > eating a hamburger in front of an image of a freshly slain cow.) >>> > >>> > The Church indoctrinates cannibalism at an early age. Here we have a >>> > priest putting pieces of raw human flesh into the mouths of children. >>> > >>> > While Popes and priests visit foreign countries, they also make sure >>> > to spread their cannibalism. >>> > Did this priest tell this child that she would eat human meat before >>> > putting a slice of it into her mouth? >>> > When I discovered the shocking realization that I had eaten human >>> > flesh, and drank human blood I felt like vomiting. Where in the world >>> > did this morbid practice begin, I wondered. I reread the Bible for >>> > clues. Could that explain the mystery of the empty tomb of Jesus (Luke >>> > 24:3)? Did the disciples eat him? >>> > Several Christians tried to console me by explaining that Communion >>> > only represents the symbolic eating of flesh, not the real thing (I >>> > later discovered that many Protestant Christians don't believe in the >>> > literal eating of Jesus, although some do). I felt relieved for awhile >>> > until other Christians told me otherwise (virtually all Catholics and >>> > Episcopalians believe in the literal interpretation). I began to do a >>> > bit of research for myself from the Catholic Church's own position. My >>> > stomach began to churn again as I discovered what communion and the >>> > Eucharist really means. >>> > >>> > Communion >>> > Communion, or "Holy Communion" as the Church officially calls it, >>> > means the actual reception of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. As the >>> > Catholic Encyclopedia puts it, "For real reception of the Blessed >>> > Eucharist it is required that the sacred species be received into the >>> > stomach. For this alone is the eating referred to by our Lord (John >>> > 6:58)." >>> > So you can't just put it in your mouth and spit it out. Oh no. You >>> > have to make sure you swallow it into your stomach! >>> > I looked up the Biblical chapter in John 6 and found this diabolical >>> > revelation: >>> > Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye >>> > eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life >>> > in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal >>> > life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat >>> > indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (John 6:53-55) >>> > Egads, I thought. Jesus really wants them to EAT HIM! It would make >>> > perfect sense if the disciples did eat his dead corpse. Of course you >>> > wouldn't want to admit your cannibalism to the unbelievers and you'd >>> > have to explain the missing body to the authorities. You might say >>> > something like, "He is not here, but is risen..." (Luke 24:6). Yeah, >>> > right, that's the ticket. >>> > >>> > If the disciples did eat Christ, it may have looked something like >>> > this. >>> > >>> > Eucharist >>> > Eucharist describes the name given to the "Blessed Sacrament of the >>> > Altar," (older religions also used blood sacrifices to an altar. Some >>> > used virgin humans, bulls, lambs, etc.). The Christians use it to mean >>> > an actual sacrifice by Jesus where they truly believe the bread and >>> > wine turns into the actual corporal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. >>> > Christians also use other titles such as, "Table of the Lord" (Mensa >>> > Domini) or the morbid term, "Lord's Body" (Corpus Domini). >>> > From the Catholic Church and as far back as the pronouncement from the >>> > Council of Trent, the quintessence of the Eucharist means that "the >>> > Body and Blood of the God-man ARE truly, really, and substantially >>> > present." >>> > >>> > Here we have a community of Christians lining up to eat and swallow >>> > the uncooked flesh of Jesus in what Christianity calls the "Blessed >>> > sacrament of the Altar" or better known as the 'Eucharist' during a >>> > ceremony of communion. Looks innocent, doesn't it? Not at all the >>> > image of cannibalism as usually depicted in folklore. >>> > The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992), stresses the centrality >>> > of the Eucharist to Catholic life: >>> > The Eucharist is 'the source and summit of the Christian life.' >>> The >>> > other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works >>> > of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented >>> > toward it. For in the Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good >>> > of the Church, namely Christ himself, or Pasch. >>> > The Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 1324 >>> > So if you practice Catholicism, and wish to remain a Catholic, you >>> > must honor the connubiality of the Eucharist. Not only does it mean >>> > eating the flesh and blood of Christ as a sacrifice, it means a union >>> > with the gore: >>> > In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the >>> sacrifice >>> > of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, >>> > sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with >>> > his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice >>> > present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of >>> > Christians to be untied with his offering. >>> > The Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 1368 >>> > Moreover, you must never deny the priesthoods power of consecrating >>> > the flesh and blood: >>> > If any one shall say that in the New Testament there is no >>> visible >>> > and external priesthood nor any power of consecrating and offering the >>> > Body and Blood of the Lord, as well as of remitting and retaining >>> > sins, but merely the office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel, >>> > let him be anathema. >>> > Council of Trent, No. 961 >>> > Note: anathema means cursed, a malediction on your soul. >>> > So how does bread and wine turn into actual flesh, you may ask? The >>> > Christians believe it comes from the concept of transubstantiation. >>> > >>> > Transubstantiation >>> > According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Hildebert of Tours (~1079) >>> > probably first used the term transubstantiation and the Church later >>> > adopted the practice in the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) and >>> > the Council of Lyons (1274), and finally, the Council of Trent >>> > (1545-1563). >>> > Transubstantiation basically means, the transition or conversion of >>> > one thing into another in some aspect of being. Turning water into >>> > wine gives one example of transubstantiation, and turning bread into >>> > flesh and wine into blood gives another. Transubstantiation, however, >>> > doesn't just describe a simple conversion of one thing into another >>> > but a substantial conversion (conversio substantialis). >>> > Transubstantiation differs from every other substantial conversion in >>> > this, that only the substance gets converted into another. >>> > [Advice to the Church: Before converting the wine into blood, why not >>> > also transubstantiate water into wine? No need for expensive grape >>> > orchards, harvesting, or processing because Jesus would do the entire >>> > conversion for you for free. That way, you could give (or better yet, >>> > sell) bottles of wine to your congregations (you could call it "Jesus >>> > Juice"). You could establish Catholic wineries around the world! Just >>> > imagine the new converts you would get and, oh how your coffer cups >>> > would overflow. Just a thought.] >>> > In the Eucharist, two extremes of conversions occur, namely the bread >>> > and wine as the terminus a quo, and the Body and Blood of Christ as >>> > the terminus ad quem (before and after). In other words, the substance >>> > of the bread and wine departs in order to make room for the Body and >>> > Blood of Christ. >>> > Transubstantiation, as a conversion of the total substance, is the >>> > transition of the entire substance of the bread and wine into the Body >>> > and Blood of Christ, comes as the express doctrine of the Church >>> > (Council of Trent, Sess. XIII, can. ii). >>> > This theophagy (god eating) of course did not come first from the >>> > Catholics but had occurred throughout pagan religions long before >>> > Christianity. The notion that eating another living human being lies >>> > at the belief of absorbing his nature into his own, thus becoming, in >>> > some sense, more godlike, similar to the even more primitive belief >>> > that eating one's enemies makes one more powerful. >>> > No true Christian should doubt it. Eating that wafer and drinking the >>> > wine in Church actually means truly and really eating human meat and >>> > blood. In fact, it's the entire body: eyes, brains, gall bladder, >>> > spleen, rectum, penis, testicles, etc. Everything. If you've ever >>> > watched the TV program, Fear Factor, that's nothing compared with >>> > eating the components of an entire human body. According to the >>> > Council of Trent, if you deny the Transubstantiation, then you are >>> > accursed (anathema). You will also get to spend eternity in hell. >>> > Bon appetit! >>> > For the full reading of this official Church doctrine from the Council >>> > of Trent, click here. >>> > >>> > How does transubstantiation work? >>> > So how does transubstantiation actually work; what process does the >>> > Church use to transform bread and wine into human flesh and blood (and >>> > guts, etc.)? Apparently this remains a deep Church secret. However, we >>> > do know that the priests make verbal incantations, pass smoking >>> > incense about, and pray a lot during a rite they call >>> > "Offertory" (Offertorium). Apparently the actual transformation occurs >>> > during the Prayer of Consecration, by which the bread and wine cease >>> > to be bread and wine, and are converted into the flesh and blood of >>> > Christ. At just what miraculous moment during the prayer it turns into >>> > human flesh, I haven't clue and I suspect the priests don't either. >>> > Apparently Jesus does the actual conversion, but I haven't discovered >>> > the method of how the priests know when this occurs or what test >>> > procedures they use to insure that Jesus made the transubstantiation >>> > (what if Jesus got lazy that day or just decided, enough is enough?). >>> > In any case, by the time the priest places the wafer into your mouth, >>> > you can rest assured that you are actually eating Christ's meat. (It >>> > tastes like chicken.) >>> > We do know that an industry exists to make the bread and wine. For >>> > example, S&M (I kid you not) stands as one of the companies that make >>> > official communion bread for the Church: >>> > >>> > If you don't know what S&M means, in colloquial terms it stands for >>> > sadomasochism or the practice of sadism (sadistic) and masochism >>> > (subjecting oneself to abuse or physical pain). >>> > Now I doubt that this company's name means or intends a connection >>> > with sadomasochism, but it seems an appropriate term if you consider >>> > what the eating of human flesh means to the recipient or the giver of >>> > one's own flesh. I cannot think of another word than sadomasochism to >>> > better describe the act of consciously eating the flesh of a human >>> > from another person (a sadistic act) who willingly gives them their >>> > flesh and blood to eat (an extreme masochist act). >>> > Frankwright Mundy & Co. Ltd. sells communical sets. They even offer >>> > briefcases and shoulder bags for carrying around the flesh and blood >>> > of Jesus. What next, I wondered; will they one day build fast food >>> > outlets where a Christian can get Jesus meat anytime of day? McJesus? >>> > Christ-In-A-Box? Considering the Bush administration's disregard for >>> > the Constitution, these chain restaurants could avoid taxes and get >>> > special federal funding as Faith-based institutions. We could all >>> > become cannibals! >>> > >>> > Vampirism >>> > Not only did I eat human flesh in my communion sacraments, but I also >>> > drank the "actual" blood of Jesus. Doesn't this make me a vampire >>> > also? Although vampires supposedly suck blood instead of drinking it, >>> > this seems an insignificant distinction. On the contrary, the drinking >>> > and the whole swallowing of blood as opposed to sucking seems to me a >>> > bit more bloodthirsty if you ask me. >>> > If you consider the folklore surrounding vampire stories and compare >>> > them with the beliefs of Christianity, the claims appear similar. >>> > Vampire myths (see Dracula) and Christianity both believe that by >>> > drinking human blood, you will live forever. Actually Christianity >>> > goes one step further by requiring the eating of human flesh along >>> > with the blood (John 6:53-55). And of course you're also eating the >>> > penis of Jesus (does that make one gay, I wonder?) and the small and >>> > large intestines of Jesus, and the bladder of Jesus, etc. Only by this >>> > cannibalistic act can you achieve "eternal life." >>> > Consider also that vampirism and their drinking of blood and >>> > immortality represent fiction, whereas Christians actually believe >>> > their communal drinking of blood and eating of Jesus' corpse will earn >>> > them eternal life. Doesn't this, at the very least, put Christian >>> > vampirism in a more deleterious light than fictional vampirism? >>> > Note that the actual Dracula (not the fictional one) lived as a >>> > Christian. Click here for more information. No doubt the real Dracula >>> > thoroughly enjoyed his communal ingesting of human blood. >>> > >>> > Addiction? >>> > Now I don't know why just one eating of flesh and drinking of blood >>> > won't get you to heaven, but I've yet to get a good explanation of why >>> > Christians need to eat flesh and blood every week. This continual >>> > practice of ritual cannibalism and vampirism brings up even more >>> > pressing questions about this gruesome practice. Does the act of >>> > communion lead to habitual use or an addictive need for more flesh and >>> > blood? Consider that Christians have done more to promote bloody wars >>> > throughout history than any other group, and their insistence on >>> > evangelizing every human on earth to their faith, should non-believers >>> > fear that the Christians might turn them into human flesh eaters too? >>> > >>> > (Click to enlarge) >>> > They start this addiction at the earliest possible age. For the first >>> > communion, they actually give a reward for remembering their first >>> > cannibalistic act, usually in the form of a certificate. (You'd think >>> > the promise of everlasting life would serve as enough reward.) Note >>> > that nowhere in the certificate does it say that you've just eaten the >>> > human meat of Jesus. >>> > >>> > Here we have a Christian boy eagerly awaiting his fix of Jesus' flesh. >>> > (Note the extra large portion.) >>> > >>> > Christian Cannibalism and vampirism continues into elderly life. >>> > >>> > How many glasses of Christ's blood has this woman drank over the >>> > years? >>> > Another concern involves the length of time of transubstantiated bread >>> > and wine. Just how long does this conversion last? We now know that >>> > you must swallow it for its effect to work, but at what stage does it >>> > turn back into naturally digested bread and wine? Does it remain >>> > transubstantiated even after digestion? Does it ever reconvert? If >>> > not, consider what this means as we move our bowels. Should we not >>> > treat the remains of Christ as sacred, just as we do the remains of >>> > the bodies of dead saints? Perhaps we might consider a better form of >>> > elimination of the excrement made from our Redeemer than just >>> > thoughtlessly flushing Him down the toilet. >>> > I find the practice of sacred cannibalism disturbing and potentially >>> > life threatening, regardless of how many of the addicted faithful tell >>> > us it will give us everlasting life. I humbly make the following >>> > proposal: that the FDA and the CDC get involved in the study of the >>> > composition of the Transubstantiated bread and wine and the narcotic >>> > or addictive effects they may impose on the human body. >>> > I hope that I have alarmed you enough to contact your local law >>> > enforcement office and state representative about this pressing >>> > matter. If you and I don't do it, who will? >>> > >>> > Conclusion >>> > Even if you still stubbornly cling to the belief that the Eucharist >>> > represents only a symbol of eating flesh and drinking blood, that >>> > still makes you a cannibal, if only a symbolic cannibal. If you >>> > partake in communion as a metaphorical representation of eating >>> > Christ's body, then that still makes you a metaphorical cannibal. You >>> > simply have no easy out of this predicament as a symbolic cannibal >>> > sits as a subset of cannibalism. >>> > You might also want to question the metaphorical or symbolic stance >>> > because if the Eucharist presents metaphor, then what does that say >>> > for Jesus himself and what Jesus directly says from the Bible about >>> > eating his meat? Metaphorical also? How do you distinguish between >>> > metaphor and reality in the Bible when it treats all doctrines equally >>> > as the inspired words of God? Would you object to the title of >>> > Symbolic Christian or Metaphorical Christian? If you consider yourself >>> > a metaphorical or symbolic Christian, then you still fall under the >>> > label of Christian just as a symbolic cannibal falls under the label >>> > of cannibal. >>> > >>> > There simply exists no way out for a Christian to escape the cannibal >>> > label, except of course to exit Christianity entirely. I did just that >>> > and by doing so, I escaped cannibalism along with all the other >>> > nonsense. I wrote this article as satire but if you live as one of the >>> > millions of faithful that believe in the Bible and the doctrines of >>> > Christianity then you must take this article as a serious argument. >>> > >>> > Sources: >>> > Catholic Encyclopedia >>> > Holy Communion >>> > The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist >>> > Offertory rite >>> > >>> > The Council of Trent The Thirteenth Session >>> >>> -- >>> Mark M. Kahle, , >>> www.filacoffee.com >>> >>> >>> >>> > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. For options & help see http://groups.google.com/group/PoliticalForum * Visit our other community at http://www.PoliticalForum.com/ * It's active and moderated. Register and vote in our polls. * Read the latest breaking news, and more. -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
