Hey Mark!! Again, let me emphasize, that I am not the Biblical scholar of the group, and obviously, I don't hold d a candle to you, Sage and others. This is my impression, and I could be wrong, but a couple of examples of the symbolism of which Christ spoke:
* Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." *1 Corinthians 11:24 "*In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.*" 1 Corinthians 11:25. It is my (unqualified) opinion that The Eucharist in and of itself is symbolic!! Where am I misguided here? How am I wrong?? On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Mark <[email protected]> wrote: > why yes I have. Show me ANYWHERE in scripture where communion is identified > or even hinted at as being merely "symbolic". > > Ever "hear" of "symbolism" ??? would have furthered your point. > > > > > On Sun, Jun 21, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Sage2 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> EVER HERE OF SYMBOLLISM ? ? ? >> >> ********************************************************************* >> >> >> On Jun 21, 11:50 am, THE ANNOINTED ONE <[email protected]> wrote: >> > All the recent talk of religion on the board (christian and Moslem) >> > has lead me back to the Church of Gonz.... >> > >> > CHRISTIAN CANNIBALS >> > An argument of why Christians are cannibals (and possibly vampires) >> > from Christianity's own perspective >> > by Jim Walker (an ex-cannibal) >> > Originated: 07 January 2003 >> > Additions: 10 July 2006 >> > >> > How many Christians realize that when they eat that wafer and drink >> > the wine during communion service that they, in effect, practice >> > cannibalism by the partaking in the eating of human flesh and blood? >> > I certainly did not know that when I underwent communion in my >> > religious days. It sounds so innocent and benign; "Communion" imparts >> > the concept of sharing thoughts and feelings, or so I thought. Oh how >> > the priests fooled me. They used other obscure terms too, like >> > "Eucharist" and "Sacrament of the Last Supper." At no time did a >> > priest or deacon explain to me that I would share in the communal >> > eating of the human flesh and blood of Jesus. >> > Cannibal: A person who eats the flesh of human beings. >> > Since Jesus represents an actual human being, and I ate him, that made >> > me a cannibal. And if you have ever undergone communion, then you too >> > fall into that category. >> > The Church tricked me and turned me into a cannibal! >> > Not only did I drink blood and eat flesh, but they made me do it in >> > front of a statue of a bloody corpse hanging by nails on two pieces of >> > lumber, a representation of the human whom I had just eaten. (Imagine >> > eating a hamburger in front of an image of a freshly slain cow.) >> > >> > The Church indoctrinates cannibalism at an early age. Here we have a >> > priest putting pieces of raw human flesh into the mouths of children. >> > >> > While Popes and priests visit foreign countries, they also make sure >> > to spread their cannibalism. >> > Did this priest tell this child that she would eat human meat before >> > putting a slice of it into her mouth? >> > When I discovered the shocking realization that I had eaten human >> > flesh, and drank human blood I felt like vomiting. Where in the world >> > did this morbid practice begin, I wondered. I reread the Bible for >> > clues. Could that explain the mystery of the empty tomb of Jesus (Luke >> > 24:3)? Did the disciples eat him? >> > Several Christians tried to console me by explaining that Communion >> > only represents the symbolic eating of flesh, not the real thing (I >> > later discovered that many Protestant Christians don't believe in the >> > literal eating of Jesus, although some do). I felt relieved for awhile >> > until other Christians told me otherwise (virtually all Catholics and >> > Episcopalians believe in the literal interpretation). I began to do a >> > bit of research for myself from the Catholic Church's own position. My >> > stomach began to churn again as I discovered what communion and the >> > Eucharist really means. >> > >> > Communion >> > Communion, or "Holy Communion" as the Church officially calls it, >> > means the actual reception of the Sacrament of the Eucharist. As the >> > Catholic Encyclopedia puts it, "For real reception of the Blessed >> > Eucharist it is required that the sacred species be received into the >> > stomach. For this alone is the eating referred to by our Lord (John >> > 6:58)." >> > So you can't just put it in your mouth and spit it out. Oh no. You >> > have to make sure you swallow it into your stomach! >> > I looked up the Biblical chapter in John 6 and found this diabolical >> > revelation: >> > Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye >> > eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life >> > in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal >> > life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat >> > indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. (John 6:53-55) >> > Egads, I thought. Jesus really wants them to EAT HIM! It would make >> > perfect sense if the disciples did eat his dead corpse. Of course you >> > wouldn't want to admit your cannibalism to the unbelievers and you'd >> > have to explain the missing body to the authorities. You might say >> > something like, "He is not here, but is risen..." (Luke 24:6). Yeah, >> > right, that's the ticket. >> > >> > If the disciples did eat Christ, it may have looked something like >> > this. >> > >> > Eucharist >> > Eucharist describes the name given to the "Blessed Sacrament of the >> > Altar," (older religions also used blood sacrifices to an altar. Some >> > used virgin humans, bulls, lambs, etc.). The Christians use it to mean >> > an actual sacrifice by Jesus where they truly believe the bread and >> > wine turns into the actual corporal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. >> > Christians also use other titles such as, "Table of the Lord" (Mensa >> > Domini) or the morbid term, "Lord's Body" (Corpus Domini). >> > From the Catholic Church and as far back as the pronouncement from the >> > Council of Trent, the quintessence of the Eucharist means that "the >> > Body and Blood of the God-man ARE truly, really, and substantially >> > present." >> > >> > Here we have a community of Christians lining up to eat and swallow >> > the uncooked flesh of Jesus in what Christianity calls the "Blessed >> > sacrament of the Altar" or better known as the 'Eucharist' during a >> > ceremony of communion. Looks innocent, doesn't it? Not at all the >> > image of cannibalism as usually depicted in folklore. >> > The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992), stresses the centrality >> > of the Eucharist to Catholic life: >> > The Eucharist is 'the source and summit of the Christian life.' >> The >> > other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works >> > of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented >> > toward it. For in the Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good >> > of the Church, namely Christ himself, or Pasch. >> > The Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 1324 >> > So if you practice Catholicism, and wish to remain a Catholic, you >> > must honor the connubiality of the Eucharist. Not only does it mean >> > eating the flesh and blood of Christ as a sacrifice, it means a union >> > with the gore: >> > In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the >> sacrifice >> > of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, >> > sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with >> > his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice >> > present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of >> > Christians to be untied with his offering. >> > The Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 1368 >> > Moreover, you must never deny the priesthoods power of consecrating >> > the flesh and blood: >> > If any one shall say that in the New Testament there is no >> visible >> > and external priesthood nor any power of consecrating and offering the >> > Body and Blood of the Lord, as well as of remitting and retaining >> > sins, but merely the office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel, >> > let him be anathema. >> > Council of Trent, No. 961 >> > Note: anathema means cursed, a malediction on your soul. >> > So how does bread and wine turn into actual flesh, you may ask? The >> > Christians believe it comes from the concept of transubstantiation. >> > >> > Transubstantiation >> > According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Hildebert of Tours (~1079) >> > probably first used the term transubstantiation and the Church later >> > adopted the practice in the Fourth Council of the Lateran (1215) and >> > the Council of Lyons (1274), and finally, the Council of Trent >> > (1545-1563). >> > Transubstantiation basically means, the transition or conversion of >> > one thing into another in some aspect of being. Turning water into >> > wine gives one example of transubstantiation, and turning bread into >> > flesh and wine into blood gives another. Transubstantiation, however, >> > doesn't just describe a simple conversion of one thing into another >> > but a substantial conversion (conversio substantialis). >> > Transubstantiation differs from every other substantial conversion in >> > this, that only the substance gets converted into another. >> > [Advice to the Church: Before converting the wine into blood, why not >> > also transubstantiate water into wine? No need for expensive grape >> > orchards, harvesting, or processing because Jesus would do the entire >> > conversion for you for free. That way, you could give (or better yet, >> > sell) bottles of wine to your congregations (you could call it "Jesus >> > Juice"). You could establish Catholic wineries around the world! Just >> > imagine the new converts you would get and, oh how your coffer cups >> > would overflow. Just a thought.] >> > In the Eucharist, two extremes of conversions occur, namely the bread >> > and wine as the terminus a quo, and the Body and Blood of Christ as >> > the terminus ad quem (before and after). In other words, the substance >> > of the bread and wine departs in order to make room for the Body and >> > Blood of Christ. >> > Transubstantiation, as a conversion of the total substance, is the >> > transition of the entire substance of the bread and wine into the Body >> > and Blood of Christ, comes as the express doctrine of the Church >> > (Council of Trent, Sess. XIII, can. ii). >> > This theophagy (god eating) of course did not come first from the >> > Catholics but had occurred throughout pagan religions long before >> > Christianity. The notion that eating another living human being lies >> > at the belief of absorbing his nature into his own, thus becoming, in >> > some sense, more godlike, similar to the even more primitive belief >> > that eating one's enemies makes one more powerful. >> > No true Christian should doubt it. Eating that wafer and drinking the >> > wine in Church actually means truly and really eating human meat and >> > blood. In fact, it's the entire body: eyes, brains, gall bladder, >> > spleen, rectum, penis, testicles, etc. Everything. If you've ever >> > watched the TV program, Fear Factor, that's nothing compared with >> > eating the components of an entire human body. According to the >> > Council of Trent, if you deny the Transubstantiation, then you are >> > accursed (anathema). You will also get to spend eternity in hell. >> > Bon appetit! >> > For the full reading of this official Church doctrine from the Council >> > of Trent, click here. >> > >> > How does transubstantiation work? >> > So how does transubstantiation actually work; what process does the >> > Church use to transform bread and wine into human flesh and blood (and >> > guts, etc.)? Apparently this remains a deep Church secret. However, we >> > do know that the priests make verbal incantations, pass smoking >> > incense about, and pray a lot during a rite they call >> > "Offertory" (Offertorium). Apparently the actual transformation occurs >> > during the Prayer of Consecration, by which the bread and wine cease >> > to be bread and wine, and are converted into the flesh and blood of >> > Christ. At just what miraculous moment during the prayer it turns into >> > human flesh, I haven't clue and I suspect the priests don't either. >> > Apparently Jesus does the actual conversion, but I haven't discovered >> > the method of how the priests know when this occurs or what test >> > procedures they use to insure that Jesus made the transubstantiation >> > (what if Jesus got lazy that day or just decided, enough is enough?). >> > In any case, by the time the priest places the wafer into your mouth, >> > you can rest assured that you are actually eating Christ's meat. (It >> > tastes like chicken.) >> > We do know that an industry exists to make the bread and wine. For >> > example, S&M (I kid you not) stands as one of the companies that make >> > official communion bread for the Church: >> > >> > If you don't know what S&M means, in colloquial terms it stands for >> > sadomasochism or the practice of sadism (sadistic) and masochism >> > (subjecting oneself to abuse or physical pain). >> > Now I doubt that this company's name means or intends a connection >> > with sadomasochism, but it seems an appropriate term if you consider >> > what the eating of human flesh means to the recipient or the giver of >> > one's own flesh. I cannot think of another word than sadomasochism to >> > better describe the act of consciously eating the flesh of a human >> > from another person (a sadistic act) who willingly gives them their >> > flesh and blood to eat (an extreme masochist act). >> > Frankwright Mundy & Co. Ltd. sells communical sets. They even offer >> > briefcases and shoulder bags for carrying around the flesh and blood >> > of Jesus. What next, I wondered; will they one day build fast food >> > outlets where a Christian can get Jesus meat anytime of day? McJesus? >> > Christ-In-A-Box? Considering the Bush administration's disregard for >> > the Constitution, these chain restaurants could avoid taxes and get >> > special federal funding as Faith-based institutions. We could all >> > become cannibals! >> > >> > Vampirism >> > Not only did I eat human flesh in my communion sacraments, but I also >> > drank the "actual" blood of Jesus. Doesn't this make me a vampire >> > also? Although vampires supposedly suck blood instead of drinking it, >> > this seems an insignificant distinction. On the contrary, the drinking >> > and the whole swallowing of blood as opposed to sucking seems to me a >> > bit more bloodthirsty if you ask me. >> > If you consider the folklore surrounding vampire stories and compare >> > them with the beliefs of Christianity, the claims appear similar. >> > Vampire myths (see Dracula) and Christianity both believe that by >> > drinking human blood, you will live forever. Actually Christianity >> > goes one step further by requiring the eating of human flesh along >> > with the blood (John 6:53-55). And of course you're also eating the >> > penis of Jesus (does that make one gay, I wonder?) and the small and >> > large intestines of Jesus, and the bladder of Jesus, etc. Only by this >> > cannibalistic act can you achieve "eternal life." >> > Consider also that vampirism and their drinking of blood and >> > immortality represent fiction, whereas Christians actually believe >> > their communal drinking of blood and eating of Jesus' corpse will earn >> > them eternal life. Doesn't this, at the very least, put Christian >> > vampirism in a more deleterious light than fictional vampirism? >> > Note that the actual Dracula (not the fictional one) lived as a >> > Christian. Click here for more information. No doubt the real Dracula >> > thoroughly enjoyed his communal ingesting of human blood. >> > >> > Addiction? >> > Now I don't know why just one eating of flesh and drinking of blood >> > won't get you to heaven, but I've yet to get a good explanation of why >> > Christians need to eat flesh and blood every week. This continual >> > practice of ritual cannibalism and vampirism brings up even more >> > pressing questions about this gruesome practice. Does the act of >> > communion lead to habitual use or an addictive need for more flesh and >> > blood? Consider that Christians have done more to promote bloody wars >> > throughout history than any other group, and their insistence on >> > evangelizing every human on earth to their faith, should non-believers >> > fear that the Christians might turn them into human flesh eaters too? >> > >> > (Click to enlarge) >> > They start this addiction at the earliest possible age. For the first >> > communion, they actually give a reward for remembering their first >> > cannibalistic act, usually in the form of a certificate. (You'd think >> > the promise of everlasting life would serve as enough reward.) Note >> > that nowhere in the certificate does it say that you've just eaten the >> > human meat of Jesus. >> > >> > Here we have a Christian boy eagerly awaiting his fix of Jesus' flesh. >> > (Note the extra large portion.) >> > >> > Christian Cannibalism and vampirism continues into elderly life. >> > >> > How many glasses of Christ's blood has this woman drank over the >> > years? >> > Another concern involves the length of time of transubstantiated bread >> > and wine. Just how long does this conversion last? We now know that >> > you must swallow it for its effect to work, but at what stage does it >> > turn back into naturally digested bread and wine? Does it remain >> > transubstantiated even after digestion? Does it ever reconvert? If >> > not, consider what this means as we move our bowels. Should we not >> > treat the remains of Christ as sacred, just as we do the remains of >> > the bodies of dead saints? Perhaps we might consider a better form of >> > elimination of the excrement made from our Redeemer than just >> > thoughtlessly flushing Him down the toilet. >> > I find the practice of sacred cannibalism disturbing and potentially >> > life threatening, regardless of how many of the addicted faithful tell >> > us it will give us everlasting life. I humbly make the following >> > proposal: that the FDA and the CDC get involved in the study of the >> > composition of the Transubstantiated bread and wine and the narcotic >> > or addictive effects they may impose on the human body. >> > I hope that I have alarmed you enough to contact your local law >> > enforcement office and state representative about this pressing >> > matter. If you and I don't do it, who will? >> > >> > Conclusion >> > Even if you still stubbornly cling to the belief that the Eucharist >> > represents only a symbol of eating flesh and drinking blood, that >> > still makes you a cannibal, if only a symbolic cannibal. If you >> > partake in communion as a metaphorical representation of eating >> > Christ's body, then that still makes you a metaphorical cannibal. You >> > simply have no easy out of this predicament as a symbolic cannibal >> > sits as a subset of cannibalism. >> > You might also want to question the metaphorical or symbolic stance >> > because if the Eucharist presents metaphor, then what does that say >> > for Jesus himself and what Jesus directly says from the Bible about >> > eating his meat? Metaphorical also? How do you distinguish between >> > metaphor and reality in the Bible when it treats all doctrines equally >> > as the inspired words of God? Would you object to the title of >> > Symbolic Christian or Metaphorical Christian? If you consider yourself >> > a metaphorical or symbolic Christian, then you still fall under the >> > label of Christian just as a symbolic cannibal falls under the label >> > of cannibal. >> > >> > There simply exists no way out for a Christian to escape the cannibal >> > label, except of course to exit Christianity entirely. I did just that >> > and by doing so, I escaped cannibalism along with all the other >> > nonsense. I wrote this article as satire but if you live as one of the >> > millions of faithful that believe in the Bible and the doctrines of >> > Christianity then you must take this article as a serious argument. >> > >> > Sources: >> > Catholic Encyclopedia >> > Holy Communion >> > The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist >> > Offertory rite >> > >> > The Council of Trent The Thirteenth Session >> >> -- >> Mark M. 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