Hi Ric,
The simplification is something I will run at in the next couple of days, but
as far as the 'chatting' between the windows with different views for different
amounts of information, I am not sure what the best way to do that would be. Do
you have any ideas?
Cheers, bob
On Feb 11, 2014, at 12:01 PM, Ric Sherlock <tikk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> I agree with Pascal that arrays with leading 1's in their shape are more
> likely to trip users up than those with leading 0's.
>
> I remember a conversation on the fourm several years ago about how to make
> "hidden" noun info more visible in the session. From memory Roger's
> suggestion was to have a separate window/box to the side that showed
> information (shape, type etc) about the nouns.
>
> Along those lines it would be nice to be able to turn on a minimum level of
> hinting that may for example use the existing display output with colour
> hints for shape (or type). The user could turn this up to next level to
> provide a separate window with your display in its full glory.
>
> Ric
>
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 6:53 AM, Pascal Jasmin <godspiral2...@yahoo.ca>wrote:
>
>> I like it.
>>
>> I'll restate my preference for simpler css. Using colour only if boxes
>> aren't completely necessary (datatype).
>>
>> I understand the desire to deal with leading 0 shapes, but I think leading
>> 1 shapes are what byte people/beginers the most. For instance assuming
>> that }. and {: produce identical results with 2 elements.
>>
>> So, if there was a way to only box-decorate items when there is a leading
>> 1 or 0 dimension, I think it would be very helpful without being as noisy.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: robert therriault <bobtherria...@mac.com>
>> To: Programming forum <programm...@jsoftware.com>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:14:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] problem matching boxed string
>>
>> Thanks Raul,
>>
>> I am currently working on the boxing display and you are right, it does
>> present some different challenges. My plan is to have the script on the
>> wiki for general amusement later this afternoon. I have put this together
>> as a way to see the results of the language in a way that I found more
>> useful and it involves a mix of html, css and J, so as far as coding I
>> think of myself as a hobbyist rather than a pro.
>>
>> It should not be hard to change the size of the empty spots and I think
>> that is a really good idea. The nice thing about CSS is that you can change
>> appearance across classes, although the complexity can avalanche when you
>> start to decide how classes will display based on the context of other
>> classes.
>>
>> Anyway, I will post when I have the script up on the jwiki.
>>
>> Cheers, bob
>>
>> On Feb 11, 2014, at 8:51 AM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This looks promising.
>>>
>>> I currently have two quibbles which you might want to reject:
>>>
>>> First, the additional markup seems to get in the way for some typical
>>> cases. I can see the need for leading 1 dimensions and embedded zero
>>> dimensions. I understand the idea of consistent display of information,
>> but
>>> there's so much going on when arrays have no zeros or ones in their shape
>>> and I can't help but wonder if a reduced complexity presentation might be
>>> nice, at least as a later option?
>>>
>>> Second, when there are zeros in the shape, the placeholders are the same
>>> size and "shape" (ha ha, get it? shape... eh... maybe you had to be
>> there)
>>> as when data is present. Maybe you could shrink the cell size for empty
>>> cells?
>>>
>>> I should also probably watch it again for how you display boxed data. One
>>> of my worries is that with so much decoration on "flat" arrays that
>> boxing
>>> will get lost in the noise.
>>>
>>> That said, from a user point of view, I can totally imagine wanting to be
>>> able to customize this, and I can also imagine not wanting to touch it
>> and
>>> wanting it to lead me off to some other page that shows me how to reason
>>> about it, and I can also imagine wanting to take the data and wanting to
>>> play with it and render it in other ways. So I guess also there are
>> plenty
>>> of opportunities for the future.
>>>
>>> If I were a manager, though, I might want you to ship it right now, the
>> way
>>> it is.
>>>
>>> Fortunately, you don't have to please me. I do not know what I would want
>>> if I were just starting. We need more beginners, and maybe that is
>>> something we can do something about, over the next few weeks and months.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> --
>>> Raul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 10:21 AM, robert therriault
>>> <bobtherria...@mac.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just an update on the visualization of J results.
>>>>
>>>> I have done a second video/blog post on using CSS and HTML to display
>>>> results on JHS. It provides examples of a system that allows you to
>>>> distinguish between 1 $ 1 , 1 1 $1 , and 1 as well as displaying arrays
>>>> with zeros in the shape such as 0 1 $ 1 and 1 0 $ 1.
>>>>
>>>> Blog post is here:
>>>>
>> http://bobtherriault.wordpress.com/2014/02/11/using-css-and-html-to-display-the-shapes-of-arrays-on-the-jhs-platform/?relatedposts_exclude=513
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, bob
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 4, 2014, at 8:25 AM, robert therriault <bobtherria...@mac.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 4, 2014, at 5:29 AM, Raul Miller <rauldmil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course you will also get an error if you try to combine one of
>>>>>> those with another array of the wrong shape. Error conditions are one
>>>>>> of the cases where I like getting the shapes of arrays.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes the zeros can affect the result even though they can't be
>> seen
>>>> in the display
>>>>>
>>>>> $ ( 0 2 3 $ 4), 5 7 $5
>>>>> 1 5 7
>>>>> $ (0 0 2 3 $ 4), 5 7 $5
>>>>> 1 1 5 7
>>>>>
>>>>> I am looking for ways to give the programmer some 'leverage' into these
>>>> situations by the ways that shapes are displayed
>>>>>
>>>>>> One of my favorite tricks, if I am getting an error from an expression
>>>>>> that seems to be due to of a lack of shapeliness (like a length error)
>>>>>> is to replace the last verb with $ (or a variation like ;&$ or $&.> or
>>>>>> ;&($ L:0) or whatever else).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that brings up another issue related to finding the shapes of
>>>>>> things: the shape inside a box will typically be different from the
>>>>>> shape outside the box (these shapes are "independent" of each other).
>>>>>
>>>>> Yep, I am working on boxes at the moment and it is a challenge for
>>>> display while retaining the independent shape of contents.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, the shape of transitory arrays (intermediate results) can also
>>>>>> matter. So familiarity with debugging tools and techniques can be
>>>>>> crucial - sometimes even more important for coding than familiarity
>>>>>> with shape and rank issues. (These are not, properly speaking, a part
>>>>>> of the language itself so much as they are a part of the environment.
>>>>>> But that's something of a technicality.)
>>>>>
>>>>> No doubt. Display can't replace knowing how rank and shape work. I am
>>>> hoping that a little better way of displaying results will make it
>> easier
>>>> to see the differences and may emphasize the importance of understanding
>>>> the concepts to those learning the language - that would be me!
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, bob
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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