On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 at 21:37, Antoine Pitrou <anto...@python.org> wrote: > > > Apparently it's this one: > https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2018-September/053482.html > > By the way, regardless of this single case, I would like people to think > of the broader issue we're having. It's more than a single contentious > decision.
Before I say anything else, I want to point out that (a) I'm not objecting to the ban, or the process that took place to impose it, and (b) I'm extremely appreciative of the work our moderators put into trying to police things in an increasingly difficult environment. So please take anything I say in that context - as perspective from someone who is concerned about the direction that certain of our groups are taking, but understands that it's not an easy problem to solve. But in the interest of looking at the broader issue (which I agree with Antoine is something we should be concerned about)... I understand that the taboo in question is a strong one in American culture, and as such violating that is inconsiderate and insensitive. Doing so deliberately is both unacceptable, and a cheap form of debate (if giving offense is the only way you have to make your point, maybe your point's not good enough?) But it is still very much one culture's position, and American sensibilities often seem to be very clear and present in a lot of the debates we see that "get out of hand" in one way or another. I'm British (and my age may also be relevant - I grew up in the 1960s and 70s), and from my perspective, it feels like a lot of people are over-sensitive, and very quick to perceive offense - to the extent that entirely natural (to many British people) and accepted tones, like sarcasm and irony, are almost impossible to express without having to completely obscure meaning by adding clarifications and explanations. I'll also comment on the point made here, can anyone point to a non-American taboo that has been violated and hasn't been dealt with the same way? Not really, but in my case that's because I don't think the British *have* strong taboos like that (and Antoine indicates that the same is true of the French). The only thing I can think of is religious taboos, such as Muslim concerns about taking the name of the Prophet in vain, but I don't think I've ever seen that sort of violation (and I would expect that to be dealt with just as swiftly). Personally, as a Catholic, arguing religious taboos on a list about a language based on Monty Python feels ironic anyway - but for the record, please don't ban references to the Spanish Inquisition or the Holy Grail on my account :-) Openness needs to be a two way street, in my view. Certainly people from cultures that have a more "robust" (shall we say) natural form of expression need to be aware that other cultures and people may not be able to deal with that - but conversely, people from cultures with a strong sense of certain words and expressions being unacceptable need to be open to the fact that others don't have that sense, and expect thicker skins in debate. That's not how I see the Python community going at the moment - rather we're moving towards a "lowest common denominator" approach, where *everyone* needs to skirt around all possible forms of offense, and the person claiming to be offended is in effect always in the right. That, to me, is taking the easy option, and I think that the Python community should aspire to do something better than that, even if it's hard. The internet in general is a hugely beneficial technology, allowing us to interact with people in radically different cultures and situations than we were ever able to in the past. That's a massive step forward for humanity as a whole in understanding each other - and we shouldn't undermine it by putting up barriers to communication in the form of preventing people from making (and learning from) dumb social mistakes. As things stand, everyone is living in fear of giving offense. As an example, some time ago, I was participating in a discussion where some participant made a comment that I thought was a bit out of line with the list's policy,. It didn't bother me, personally, at all (as I say, I'm British :-)) but rather than let it lie, I felt that I should mention this, rather than leave it to someone else. However, what ended up happening was that I got a lot of criticism for "taking offense unnecessarily". (I don't have a link, and I don't want to provide one - it's an example, not something I feel the need to analyze further). So rather than *helping*, I ended up being the bad guy simply from trying to channel other people's views and getting it wrong. And I ended up with a strong sense that everyone viewed me as the sort of over-sensitive complainer that I try very, very hard not to be. When I write mails for the lists, it's an exhausting process. The technical content is easy, but policing my own tone against an increasingly complex and restrictive set of standards that I don't personally subscribe to, nor do I really understand, is becoming a burden that puts me off contributing. That is *not* to say that I have any problem with the CoC - I certainly wouldn't consider myself to be anything other than "Open, Considerate and Respectful" - but I constantly feel that I have to word my contributions in a way that's unnatural to me, simply because I have to take the view that people reading my words have no sense of who I am, and cannot get any such sense because if I were to "loosen up", there's too much of a risk that someone would take offense. (As an example, people who know me in real life would be used to me referring to things as "stupid" and "idiotic" and wouldn't worry or take offense - because I call *myself* "stupid" and "idiotic" far more often than I use the terms about anything else - but how would I ever get to the point where I could do that in a list conversation? So I have to find alternative words which convey the same sense that I get when I say "stupid" - and that basically means a 5 or 6 word phrase with a couple of footnotes saying "no, I don't mean you personally" or similar. Which destroys the readability of my comment. Much like my having to over-expand this parenthetical note has done ;-)) We have to take care. There are no visual or body language cues when writing emails. I'm not arguing that people should be given license to say whatever they want. But nor should people be made to live in fear of making a genuine mistake. Paul _______________________________________________ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers Code of Conduct: https://www.python.org/psf/codeofconduct/