Can you speak in general terms at RacketCon?
> On Apr 16, 2019, at 3:02 PM, dexterla...@gmail.com wrote: > > I use Racket daily in production at Mercury Filmworks (Disney TVA, Amazon, > Netflix productions among others), and I wish I could talk more about how > Racket helps us where it counts. If there was to be an evangelist, I'd be a > candidate, however 1) I don't consider myself a good Racket programmer, and > 2) most of what I work on can't be published. That said, I'd love to write a > case study on our use in production, especially Racket's role in replacing > Python/Bash/Csh scripts with fast, self-contained binaries. I use it for > everything from video formats handling (+ffmpeg) to automation to animation > software plugins. > > Dexter > > On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 at 3:51:21 PM UTC+1, Neil Van Dyke wrote: > Stephen De Gabrielle wrote on 12/26/18 7:40 AM: > > How did other languages grow their audience? e.g. Ruby-on-Rails, Perl, > > Python, PHP, C++, Rust ? > > All of those had merits, were right place and at right time, and (except > Rust) really spread when there was *a lot* less noise and sheer mass of > stuff. Also, some of those had very long ramps to their ultimate > popularity (which could give some hope to Racketeers). > > Ruby with Rails was a decent language that pushed a good model and > automagical conveniences for Web developer productivity, and they seemed > to have a good community (e.g., when I was shopping around for my new > research platform language, and I don't think I'd even heard of Ruby at > that time, one of the nice Ruby people happened to hear about my quest, > and emailed me, suggesting Ruby). > > We talked about Perl growth spikes here recently. > > Python started out as some guy on Usenet with a reusable extension > language (Tcl was another, and some RnRS implementations were another) > -- all 3 of them had interesting innovations and merits. (Tcl got > popular because of Tk GUIs, and then it has some moments in the sun for > earlier database-backed Web servers (as opposed to manually-edited HTML) > while a lot more readable than Perl, and was pushed commercially by > Philip Greenspun, before Sun hired Tcl creator Ousterhout, and Tcl > disappeared, in favor of Java and then LiveScript/JS.) > > PHP was in the early Web gold rush, when template-ish approaches were > attractive alternative to CGI scripts that started as Perl (or, less > likely, other imperative language) code that spat out HTML strings. You > could also do HTML templates various other ways, including in Perl, but > the Web was so new, and the tools so not figured out, and everyone was > racing to do neat stuff (or to get VC funding, then Herman Miller office > furniture and launch party, and then IPO), that there was a lot of > random going on, and we aren't in that kind of environment anymore. > Well, unless you were pitching a "blockchain" startup during the BTC:USD > run-up a year ago -- it didn't much matter what tools you grabbed, so > long as you told the VCs you were doing "blockchain" (you didn't even > have to madlibs pitch "Our startup is like _Uber_, for _cats_! (Can you > handle the sheer force of our raw innovation, unleashed!)"). > > C++ had the funding and promotional/endorsement backing of the people > who brought us C and Unix, and (again) there was a lot less stuff, and a > lot fewer programmers. The people using C were some of the most > technically-skilled programmers: OS-level systems programmers (who also > used assembler), Unix workstation technical application/research > programmers, PC shrinkwrap software developers, and EEs doing software > bits of embedded systems. (The corporate MIS programmers were a > separate group -- they mostly did database forms and reports and > business logic, and there seemed to be subgroups for different > platforms. Much of the MIS seemed to be analogous to today's Web > programmers, and I'm not sure how MIS platform adoption decisions were > made in various kinds of organizations then.) > > Anyway, besides the Bell Labs / AT&T backing, I recall one thing that > helped push C++ was the people doing GUI and hearing about OO (with > references to Smalltalk), at a time when people were just reasoning > low-level code and ad hoc formalisms, or using pre-OO analysis and > design methods (structured SA and SD, ERDs, etc.), and it was really > easy to sell generalization/polymorphism to those people. Plus AT&T was > saying C++ would help with mission-critical and performance-critical > large and complex systems, and you had workstation developers like > Mentor Graphics endorsing it. Also, again, the amount of stuff and the > number of programmers was a lot smaller then; one anecdote: by the time > there was a Usenix C++ conference, it was small enough that, while > Stroustrup was talking during a Q&A in the hotel conference room (maybe > around the scale of current RacketCon), some toddler goes running up the > aisle from the back of the room, saying something like "daddy!", and > everyone laughs. > > Early Rust had some really thoughtful and language careful design, and > it tackled one of the hardest challenges of working in C, which is > allocation management (which not enough C programmers take seriously > enough). Now they have the funding investment and high-profile > endorsement (sound familiar?) of Mozilla and a few other > credibility-lending companies, and might be driven now in part by > pragmatic needs of projects. (Early Racket pragmatics also seemed > driven by pragmatic needs, like getting DrScheme to work, and > cross-platform.) Rust has also attracted a ton of volunteer effort, > including a large number of high-quality and innovative reusable > packages. (Innovative, not unlike you'd see from Lisp-family people, > because their platform gives them an advantage, and because the > programmer is likely to be high-skilled. Racket was doing some of this > early on, but the numbers of such contributions didn't ramp up as > quickly as they did for Rust.) I missed part of history of how Rust > evolved, while I was focused on Racket and paying bills, so maybe > someone can fill in the gaps here of how they bootstrapped popularity, > and what Racket can learn from that. > > (BTW, it's good to see Racket's secret research lab doing more work on > DSLs and other things. We can't rest on our laurels, and other > languages are improving their DSL support, though they have syntax > handicaps and are starting way later than us, Bell Labs and older Lisps > excepted.) > > Why I suggested focusing outreach on Hacker News (and maybe I've talked > about it more recently on "racket-money" than "racket-users") was... I > want to see more people making a living working with/on Racket (outside > of professorships, and grad student slave stipends), and I think that > means a lot more companies using it for substantial projects, and I > suspect the best bet is startups who can choose their tools (and are > funded as gambles), and I suspect the best bet for that is getting HN > startup success stories like: "we got to launch and ___ funding round, > with Racket, because DSLs, and Racket is the best for that". Then other > HN people will see a success story, a couple might be inspired to think > about DSLs for their own startup idea, and then somehow this becomes > RACKET EXPONENTIAL EXPLOSION. Or at least more people making a living > working with/on Racket. > > BTW, maybe jobs using Racket will also encourage a lot more quality > contributions of packages, when there's the additional motivation of > open source "auditioning" for jobs, in addition to the current community > participation, platform promotion, and love of craft. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Racket Users" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to racket-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Racket Users" group. 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