Lets face it, if during an "Antenna Party" club organized or not, if someone is injured or killed, the family of the injured party will be bringing action against anyone in sight.
The same would also apply to incidents after the fact caused by the equipment or work done with permission of the club. It would be very rare, but lets say the new "club" repeater caused a fire, cable entry point caused a leak, batteries vented fumes, etc. etc etc., the site owners insurance would be looking to recover damages from the responsible party. Even if the party being sued is deemed not responsible, the legal bills and grief are tremendous. As a commercial site manager & owner, I have been mostly unable to allow ham clubs on our sites as they could not obtain proper insurance, naming us and the property owners as additionally insured. The site owner is responsible for so much as a twisted ankle for hams or any other person visiting the site. My lawn contractors must have proper insurance, causes a hell of a problem getting a job done cheaply, but I make no exceptions. There are lawyers who will sue for falls on a cracked sidewalk, if someone is injured at a site, what makes you think they may may not be forced to sue even if they did not want to ??? Under no circumstances would I allow a ham club to install their own antennas, my insurance company would cancel me immediately.Proper procedure is to hire out the job to licensed and insured contractors with proper liability AND workers comp insurance, PERIOD. I also insist that all installations be supervised and Signed off by myself just as if the ham club were a commercial paying customer, access limited to an authorized access list and sign in/out log, no extra vistors, wives or buddies allowed. Insurance is available, condo associations, flea markets, ham swaps and many others purchase insurance, find a way to pay for good insurance. When you sign up for insurance, have two club members in attendance with the agent, take notes and ask good questions, make sure the coverage works for any scenario. Just my 2 cents Chris Deluge--General Mobile Radio Service Inc. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, <rb_n3...@...> wrote: > > Nate, > I believe you are, for the most part, entirely correct, in my non-legal opinion. However, there are still clubs out here in RF land that are not Incorporated (for what-ever reason or act of ignorance) under State law, and there I belive the indiviual members can be held responsible/liable (at tleast those that may be participating in a given activity). This may vary from State to State. If my belief if incorrect then I apologize for any confusion I may have caused to the QSO. > Doug > N3DAB/WPRX486/WPJL709 > ---- Nate Duehr n...@... wrote: > Doubtful. They have no authority (or responsibility) for what the > Corporate entity does, really. Nor do they make decisions for the Corporation. > > The law recognizes the registered officers of an Incorporation as > those responsible for its actions. In most cases. > > The analogy would be if the membership voted (even in a "democratic" > organization) to have the club do something illegal, it would still be > the club officers who would enact (or not enact) those wishes, and be > liable for them under the law. > > Saying, "the members made me do it" wouldn't be a defense. > > You choose to follow the member's wishes, or in the worst-case > scenario, you are forced to resign and say you're unable to fulfil them. > > Corporations, Partnerships, and so-called "Limited Liability" > Corporations are all handled a little differently, both in general, and also in different jurisdictions. > > For example, in aircraft partnerships, it's common to build those as an LLC and one should never say they "own an airplane". You say, "I own a portion of the incorporation that owns the airplane", if you're truly doing it right. > > If someone hears you say you own the plane with Mr. X, and X had a bad day and put the airplane down through negligence through a roof into someone's living room, or worse, he loses it and decided to start dropping grand pianos on unsuspecting motorists from the airplane you jointly "own", and a lawyer can prove you treated it more as a "Partnership" than an LLC, his temporary lack of good judgement could mean your assets are seized until a judge decides your true relationship with Mr. X. > > Far easier to just say "Mr. X crashed the corporation's aircraft" and hire your own lawyer to make sure you get your money back from the insurance company during the ensuing legal battle between the Corporation and Mr. X for the replacement costs of the aircraft. > > Most ham club's biggest liability risk (to me anyway) of real losses comes on tower climbing day. I'm a pain in the ass about hard hats at our work parties and I bring extra, figuring that even retaining an average lawyer fir one hour would cost me more than buying everyone at the site a cheap Home Depot hard hat. As just one example... Nate Duehr > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jan 26, 2009, at 19:40, "Gary Schafer" gascha...@... wrote: > > Hi Nate, > > Canât members of the club be held liable as well as officers? > > 73 > > > > Gary K4FMX > > > > From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com > > ] On Behalf Of Nate Duehr > > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 8:31 PM > > To: Repeater Builder List > > Cc: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Site Insurance Vendors> > > > > > Yeah I know. I just didn't want to depress people further.> > > > > > If you have "considerable assets", of any kind -- being a club leader is inherently a very risky position to put yourself in, financially -- now that corporate rules regarding liability of organizations have been eviscerated. > > > > Thank Enron and Qwest leadership for the motivation to change the > > law the next time you see them.> > > > > > ARRL says little about this. They have a whole organization dedicated to clubs that never says a word in any publication about how to properly set up Amateur organizations from a liability standpoint. > > > > At least my AOPA membership means they lobby for product liability changes in aviation. If ARRL ever starts fighting for liability limits for volunteer organizations in The Beltway instead of the never-ending BPL fight, I'll be pretty impressed. > > > > Nate Duehr > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Jan 26, 2009, at 17:49, Butch Kanvick hot...@... wrote: > > > >> Usually when some one signs a waiver letter, it is not worth the ink that it is written with. You cannot assign your rights away before something happens, it usually means you have just admitted liability with them signing the letter. It might slow down litigation by about 5 minutes, but does not mean anything. It is feel good measure, but good luck when it is used against you. > >> > >> Butch, KE7FEL/r > >> > >> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com > >> From: n...@... > >> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:12:39 -0700 > >> Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Site Insurance Vendors > >> > >> Check to see if they can later subrogate in cases of negligence or gross negligence in your state. In California, I think it's gross negligence, but I'd have to check. > >> > >> Sure they have to defend you, but if they lose... then they can usually turn around and sue you. > >> > >> And... this becomes a conflict of interest, because in States where they can subrogate only in cases of GROSS negligence (you have to get the difference between negligence and gross negligence here...), they're motivated to provide you with a really shoddy defense. > >> > >> Basically the old adage comes true again -- any lawyer you're not paying out of your pocket, isn't looking out for your best interests, they're looking to the best interests of their CLIENT. In this case, the insurance company. > >> > >> Let's use a real-world example: Someone falls off a tower and is hurt. It'd be REALLY easy for any lawyer involved to prove GROSS negligence today if everyone climbing didn' t have FORMAL OSHA-Approved climbing training. > >> >>> Send one guy up the tower who VOLUNTEERS to do so without modern training, and he falls, and you don't have a signed waiver from him -- if you're an officer of the organization, be prepared to lose your house to his widow. > >> > >> This is the kind of stuff that keeps club Presidents and officers awake at night when it's time to replace antennas. > >> > >> Nate > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com > >> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Gomberg > >> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 3:06 PM > >> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com > >> Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Site Insurance Vendors > >> > >> At 13:34 1/26/2009, Nate Duehr wrote: > >> >Also consider that most of your Bo ard and Officers will be bankrupt from paying for the lawyers to defend themselves (let alone the organization)long before the insurance kicks in... Nate > >> > >> You picked a bad state, Nate. In California, an insurance company has a duty to defend, even if they think the suit is baseless or not covered by your policy (they must defend to ensure that they get that ruling). And they pay for the defense. > >> > >> FWIW, I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, this is NOT legal advice. > >> -- > >> Dave Gomberg, San Francisco NE5EE gomberg1 at wcf dot com > >> All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html <http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html>
