Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Jim Sharkey]

The Fool wrote:

>C. I am not preventing anyone from enslaving their mind to idiocy,
>F. I think forcing a way of life/thinking on someone else is wrong. 

And yet the title of this thread from the very beginning is "religion is evil, why it 
must be eradicated."  Seems to me that if you had your druthers, religion would be 
done away with, both for the Pat Robertsons and Bin Laden of the world and for the 
average person down the street that just likes God.

If that is the case, than wouldn't you be forcing your view on them?  I'm just trying 
to get where your coming from here, because it seems a bit contradictory.

If you hate religion because it has though police, but you are willing to forbid 
others from following it, how can we take your positions on free speech seriously?  
You say you aren't preventing anyone from enslaving their minds to idiocy, but you're 
also saying their idiocy should be eliminated.  Am I misreading you here?

Jim

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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[The Fool]

> From: Jim Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Just a general question for the Fool, after hours of reading the
volumes of discussion here:
> 
> Posts you've made in the past suggest you have an almost rabid love for
Free Speech.  Doesn't your position on religion, et. al. strike you as
even a little hypocritical?  Or is it that free speech and being able to
decide for oneself only applies to the things you agree with?

A. Most religions try to restrict free speech.
B. Most religions have various forms of 'thought crimes', Sins which are
against free speech.
C. I am not preventing anyone from enslaving their mind to idiocy,
Religion.
D. Religion is not just another bad idea, it's a bad paradigm, a bad way
of thinking, a bad way of life, a bad waste of time/money/effort/thought,
a bad way to solve problems, a bad way to understand
life/science/math/the universe, etc.
E. I think religion is dangerous and irrational.
F. I think forcing a way of life/thinking on someone else is wrong. 
(That slavery meme again).
G. Fermats last theorem wasn't solved by faith.
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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Jim Sharkey]

Just a general question for the Fool, after hours of reading the volumes of discussion 
here:

Posts you've made in the past suggest you have an almost rabid love for Free Speech.  
Doesn't your position on religion, et. al. strike you as even a little hypocritical?  
Or is it that free speech and being able to decide for oneself only applies to the 
things you agree with?

Jim


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Fwd: Religion, the good side

[Robert Zimmerman]

In a message dated 11/27/2002 1:14:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

No, I don't mean working on other things, unless those other things are
occupying only a small part of your thinking (for example, thinking
about the problem while driving down a long empty road would qualify as
working, but not reading a book about something unrelated).


Let me add my two cents. For me creativity is a start stop thing. I work 
on a paper or a peer review etc. I wokr for a while (one or two hours) but 
then I get stuck. At some point over the next day or two I will know the 
solution to my problem. With long projects this stop and start stuff 
reaches a critical mass and then I can plow through till the end no matter 
how many hours it takes.


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Fwd: Religion, the good side

[Robert Zimmerman]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 22:03:38 EST
Subject: Fwd: Religion, the good side
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230

In a message dated 11/27/2002 1:12:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

It isn't the golf that helps you solve the problem, it is the process
>of looking at the problem from a different angle. And there are more
>efficient ways to do that than golf.



Now just a minute; i have had many creative ideas while playing golf. I 
have devised creative uses of my putter (the putter javalin throw was my 
idea). Did you know that a golf cart can do a 360 after a bad shot  by 
simply hitting the breaks real hard when going down a steep hill at 
maximum speed? Oh yeah and thought f a way to use diffusion imaging to 
evaluate neurodegenerative diseases (well in fact my physicst thought of a 
solution to this problem after I posed it to him but I was thinking about 
him when hit my ball in the water for the forth time on the 9th hole)





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Message-ID: <03ab01c295dc$78dd2da0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dan Minette" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
References:

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]><036801c295d2$0029b7c0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Religion, the good side
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:16:06 -0600
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- Original Message -
From: "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:35 PM
Subject: Re: Religion, the good side


> On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 11:01:09PM -0600, Dan Minette wrote:
>
> > Good lord, an innovative technique, including coming up with a
> > radically new design, building and testing hardware, all within a
> > year?
>
> If they spent 6 hours per day working and it took two years, then yes,
> it is likely it could be done in one year if they spent 12 hours.

Isn't that like saying if you can run a marathon in 2 hours and 15 minutes,
you should be able to run 200 miles in 16 hours?  I can't keep peak
efficiency for creativity for more than an hour at most.  I've lead a team
under intense time pressure, implementing a design after the creative work
was done.  Yet, we couldn't work steady 12 hour days without causing more
harm than good.
>
> > But, the creative stuff requires me to do things like clean the
> > kitchen, play golf, etc. in order to solve the problem.  When I stop
> > looking at the problem, the solution appears.
>
> And the solution probably would have appeared faster if you weren't
> doing those other things. There are lots of things you can do to change
> your viewpoint on a problem, talk to others about it, read books, make a
> list of all possible solutions that have worked in the past for related
> problems, check your journal of ideas that you keep, or any of another
> million ways that you can look up in various problem solving books.

Very few creative people I know are list creators. Very few creative people
I know go to problem solving books.  That's good for solutions to mundane
problems, not real creativity.  The real trick for creativity is to not
work consciously.  Its to

Fwd: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Robert Zimmerman]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:34:25 EST
Subject: Fwd: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 230




True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine.
Well, probably.  It's not impossible that some of the
real fanatics in both fields would cause problems
there, but not at most places.  In Berkeley you might
have problems, for example, no matter what field
you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example,
I'd be okay.



Hey I am at Cornell, we don't want you right wing nut jobs. But we could 
still have dinner



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Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:59:26 PST
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:59:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> > Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually
> > getting an academic job are essentially zero, but
> > that's the way these things work nowadays...
> >
> > Gautam
>
> You're just in the wrong field . . .
> -- Ronn! :)

True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine.
Well, probably.  It's not impossible that some of the
real fanatics in both fields would cause problems
there, but not at most places.  In Berkeley you might
have problems, for example, no matter what field
you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example,
I'd be okay.

Gautam

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Re: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be erad...

[John D. Giorgis]

At 10:58 PM 11/27/2002 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>In a message dated 11/27/2002 8:18:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>>Please explain how issuing a ruling stating simply that "The US
>>Consitution is silent on the matter of abortion, therfore this is an
>>issue to be decided by Congress, or alternatively, the several States"
>>requires ignoring or rewriting the Constitution.
>>
>>
>>I am most curious in anyone's answer to this question.
>The constitution was written two centuries ago. Abortion was not an issue 
>then. Neither was telecommunications baseball anti-trust exemptions or most 
>of what we will deal with in the early 21st century. But the constitution 
>provides general rules about which part of goverment does which things and 
>what kind of things can be legislated. 

Correct.   Note the word "legislated."The abortion issue was being
discussed and considered n the Legislatures of the several States, until
the Supreme Court pulled the plug on the democratic process, and simply
legalized all abortions.

I simply do not see how a reasonable interpretation of the US Constitution
can lead you to conclude that it was intended for the US Supreme Court to
settle the abortion issue in 1973 based upon a "constitutional right to
abortion."  The Constitution clearly never decided for the US Supreme Court
to settle this issue.

>So the supreme courts abortion 
>ruling dealt with an unforeseen consequence of the constitution. The 
>strength of the document is that it provides a  balance between indiviudal 
>and societal rights; between the roles of various aspects of government.

Forgive me, but I do not see how issuing a ruling stating simply that "The US
Consitution is silent on the matter of abortion, therfore this is an issue
to be decided by Congress, or alternatively, the several States"requires
ignoring or rewriting the Constitution.   If you attempted to answer this
question, I honestly did not find your answer within your message.

You mention that "the supreme court ruling dealt with unforseen
consequences of the Constition."   I don't think that you meant to say
this, but rather, meant "situations unforseen by the Constitution."
Please correct me if I am wrong - but I simply don't see how abortion could
be described as a "consequence of the Constitution," unforseen or
otherwise.   

Anyhow, the Consitution actually addresses unforseen situations - and it
does not say that debates unforseen by the Constitution should be settled
by the US Supreme Court.   Rather, it says:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or
to the people."

And it also says: 
"The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary,
shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of
the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a
convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid
to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by
the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions
in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may
be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made
prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner
affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first
article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its
equal suffrage in the Senate."

Again, I do not see how saying that the abortion question must be resolved
by Congress or the several States requires ignoring or rewriting the
Constitution.   In fact, I would argue that it is far more in keeping with
the Constitution than your proposal that unforseen circumstances should be
settled by the Supreme Court.

Indeed, if you believe that the abortion issue *should* have been settled
by the Supreme Court, then you have to believe that it would have been just
as proper for them to declare that Constitution guarantees "that no person
shall be deprived of life   without due process of law", and
therefore every abortion is unconstitutional as it was proper for them to
find a right to abortion in the penumbra of the Constitution. 

>As to your other statements about americans attitudes towards abortion. You 
>said americans were against abortion and I challenged you on this. 

No.   I said that electorates wished to protect unborn human life.I
then stated that some electorates wished to provide total protection to
unborn human life, and also listed other examples of limited protections to
unborn human life that are supported by the general electorate, but have
variously been struck down by the US Supreme Court.

Moreover, you also missed the point that I know that some States wish to
ban abortion within their borders, and the US Supreme Court is apparently
violating the

RE: Humor: Hu's on First

[Jon Gabriel]

YVW :) 

A blurb about this e-mail was in Newsweek this week. 

For the past week, all anyone in a meeting in my office has had to say
was "Yes Sir." "Yasser?" and the place breaks up. :-) 

Jon



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Reggie Bautista
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 2:33 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Humor: Hu's on First

Jon wrote:
>Eccles posted this on Culture.  I'm sure it's gonna offend *somebody*
>:-)
>Jon
>
>
>
>>Playwright Jim Sherman wrote this after Hu Jintao was named chief of
the 
>>Communist Party in China.
>>
>>   HU'S ON FIRST By James
Sherman
>>
>>(We take you now to the Oval Office.)
>>
>>George:  Condi!  Nice to see you.  What's happening?
>>
>>Condi:   Sir, I have the report here about the new leader of China.
>>
>>George:  Great.  Lay it on me. Condi:   Hu is the new leader of China.

>>George:  That's what I want to know. Condi:   That's what I'm telling
you. 
>>George:  That's what I'm asking you.  Who is the new leader of China? 
>>Condi:   Yes. George:  I mean the fellow's name. Condi:   Hu. George:
The 
>>guy in China. Condi:   Hu. George:

[much snipped]

This is *completely* politically incorrect...

But I haven't laughed this much in a very long time!

Thanks for sharing!

Reggie Bautista


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Fwd: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be erad...

[by way of Robert Zimmerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]

In a message dated 11/27/2002 8:18:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Please explain how issuing a ruling stating simply that "The US
Consitution is silent on the matter of abortion, therfore this is an
issue to be decided by Congress, or alternatively, the several States"
requires ignoring or rewriting the Constitution.


I am most curious in anyone's answer to this question.

The constitution was written two centuries ago. Abortion was not an issue 
then. Neither was telecommunications baseball anti-trust exemptions or most 
of what we will deal with in the early 21st century. But the constitution 
provides general rules about which part of goverment does which things and 
what kind of things can be legislated. So the supreme courts abortion 
ruling dealt with an unforeseen consequence of the constitution. The 
strength of the document is that it provides a  balance between indiviudal 
and societal rights; between the roles of various aspects of government.

As to your other statements about americans attitudes towards abortion. You 
said americans were against abortion and I challenged you on this. Your 
response was to list aspects of the abortion debate that different people 
find difficult to accept. These are complex issues (what are the rights of 
an underage pregnant women? Under what circumstances can second trimester 
abortions be performed? The debates about these questions are healthy and 
necessary since these are difficult ethical moral and legal questions. But 
concerns about some aspects of abortion does not imply rejection of all 
abortions




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RE: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Jon Gabriel]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of William T Goodall
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:39 PM
To: BRIN-L
Subject: Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

on 28/11/02 12:29 am, Robert Seeberger at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

>> 
>> No, all lies are still evil.
>> 
> 
> "No honey, those pants don't make you look fat."
> 
> I rest my case.
> 

But 'honey' was probably asking because she intends to go out in  public
and
be seen by lots of people wearing *those* pants.

Now what's evil?

~~~
The ANSWER isn't evil, the QUESTION is evil!!

:-)

Jon

BTW and seriously, My wife asks these same questions, but she knows
she'll get an honest answer without sarcastic (or godforbid 'humorous')
comments.  If she's looking for anything but honesty, she doesn't ask,
and therefore doesn't take it personally.  (Maru)
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Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/27/2002 6:39:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Remove The Walls, Let In More Light! Maru

I can't see any walls. Every wall is covered by a bookshelf.

William Taylor
---
And some windows, too.
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Re: Something fun based on Something Scouted. :)

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/27/2002 5:29:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Possible Brinnellian headlines for the new Shape and Muscle & Fitness 
>  covers:
>  
>  Get healthier skin: 4 'when to shed' tips from Soro Queen 'Spork'.
  --and how to do your nails, all five of them.

>  Arnold Schwarzenegger speaks out about the Pila and Eyedrop Abuse.
just don't pump them up until they burst a button.

>  Jophur pharmacist arrested for selling Phen Phen under the ring.
 ---Mulch ado about nothing.

>  Shocking Expose: "Hoonish Diet Protein Shakes" a Scam
  --So they were given the throat sack?

>  Build a better body (and a second head) in just 30 days.
What a Nish-ty thing to say.

>  Our new Bench Pressing regime from Gorilla Ooga
 ---You won't be fat or Thennanin either.

>  The best diet ever!  (Hint, it involves Steroids & Anal Probes)
Don't let 'em scream. Put the Cartman before the hoarse.

>  Can't stop eating?  Try our new exploding cheesecake recipe from Tymbrimi
>  Chef Sirellicalluana
 It's a Tytlal-ating recipe.
>  
>  Any takers?
-Or have you been taken?

>  :-)
>  Jon
>  

William Taylor
-
Any Uplift Urbane Legends out there?
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Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/27/2002 3:58:56 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> >A rubber mallet is a very useful thing.  I think we could use another
>  >one around here.

As a past armour, I had a total of over 50 different hammers.

A rubber mallet?

Try three deadblows, two rubber, three plastic, and three hardwood mallets.

The steel hammers would take longer to describe.

William Taylor
-
When I nod my head..
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Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Russell Chapman]

Kevin Tarr wrote:


Some people are e-mailing from the future.


Face it - Australia is the future - we leave you all behind (ignore NZ & 
Fiji, everyone else does...)

What are tonight's powerball numbers? I'll share.


But how are you going to get my share forward in time to me?

Cheers
Russell C.


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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message -
From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "BRIN-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)


> on 28/11/02 12:29 am, Robert Seeberger at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >>
> >> No, all lies are still evil.
> >>
> >
> > "No honey, those pants don't make you look fat."
> >
> > I rest my case.
> >
>
> But 'honey' was probably asking because she intends to go out in  public
and
> be seen by lots of people wearing *those* pants.
>
> Now what's evil?
>
The results of telling the truth could be very evil.

xponent
Has A Larger Ass Than His Fiance Maru
rob


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Re: Civil War (was RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated)

[John D. Giorgis]

At 05:46 AM 11/27/2002 -0600 Ronn! Blankenship wrote:
>At 10:48 PM 11/25/02 -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:
>>if you're south of the Mason-Dixon line, the War Between the States
>
>
>Wrong.
>
>It's called "The War of Northern Aggression."

In Boston, they call it "The Rebellion" - which is more accurate, IMHO.

JDG
___
John D. Giorgis -   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern
them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female;
 own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of 
freedom are right and true for every person,  in every society -- and the 
duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common 
calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages.
-US National Security Policy, 2002
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Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message -
From: "Kevin Tarr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:58 AM
Subject: Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???


> last of six because it's currently the nicest. I'd like to move or remove
a
> wall to redo the kitchen, wondering if I should consult an architect or
> interior design person. Any suggestion/experiences?
>
> A friend who is helping has made one great suggestion and two bad ones. He
> thinks the nine foot ceilings are too much and should put in drop
ceilings,
> and replace my cast iron drain pipes with PVC while I have the walls open.
> I hate drop ceilings (visually) and I hate PVC drain pipes (noise).
>

9 foot ceilings are much nicer. They make a room look spacious.

If the cast iron is in good shape and not rusted through, keep it.
Iron pipe is much more durable.

Are your walls plaster or drywall?

Stippling the ceiling and a nice wallpaper border at the top of a wall can
do a lot to improve a living space. Its a waste in a bedroom if you ask me,
but enough people like it that you see it pretty often.

xponent
Remove The Walls, Let In More Light! Maru
rob


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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[The Fool]

> From: John D. Giorgis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> At 06:29 PM 11/27/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote:
> >Yeshua's father joseph has two geneologies, both different from each
> >other, listed in matthew, and luke.
> 
> One is possibly the genealogy of Mary.

NO.  Nowhere does it say 'Mary'.
It says father to 'Joseph' and 'Joseph' son of...

It says:

Matthew 1:1-16
1 The book of the history of Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham:

 2 Abraham became father to Isaac;
Isaac became father to Jacob;
Jacob became father to Judah and his brothers;
 3 Judah became father to Pe'rez and to Ze'rah by Ta'mar;
Pe'rez became father to Hez'ron;
Hez'ron became father to Ram;
 4 Ram became father to Am·min'a·dab;
Am·min'a·dab became father to Nah'shon;
Nah'shon became father to Sal'mon;
 5 Sal'mon became father to Bo'az by Ra'hab;
Bo'az became father to O'bed by Ruth;
O'bed became father to Jes'se;
 6 Jes'se became father to David the king.
 David became father to Sol'o·mon by the wife of U·ri'ah;
 7 Sol'o·mon became father to Re·ho·bo'am;
Re·ho·bo'am became father to A·bi'jah;
A·bi'jah became father to A'sa;
 8 A'sa became father to Je·hosh'a·phat;
Je·hosh'a·phat became father to Je·ho'ram;
Je·ho'ram became father to Uz·zi'ah;
 9 Uz·zi'ah became father to Jo'tham;
Jo'tham became father to A'haz;
A'haz became father to Hez·e·ki'ah;
10 Hez·e·ki'ah became father to Ma·nas'seh;
Ma·nas'seh became father to A'mon;
A'mon became father to Jo·si'ah;
11 Jo·si'ah became father to Jec·o·ni'ah and to his brothers at the time
of the deportation to Babylon.

12 After the deportation to Babylon Jec·o·ni'ah became father to
She·al'ti·el;
She·al'ti·el became father to Ze·rub'ba·bel;
13 Ze·rub'ba·bel became father to A·bi'ud;
A·bi'ud became father to E·li'a·kim;
E·li'a·kim became father to A'zor;
14 A'zor became father to Za'dok;
Za'dok became father to A'chim;
A'chim became father to E·li'ud;
15 E·li'ud became father to El·e·a'zar;
El·e·a'zar became father to Mat'than;
Mat'than became father to Jacob;
16 Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was
born, who is called Christ.


Luke 3:23-38
23 Furthermore, Jesus himself, when he commenced [his work], was about
thirty years old, being the son, as the opinion was,
of Joseph,
[son] of He'li,
24 [son] of Mat'that,
[son] of Le'vi,
[son] of Mel'chi,
[son] of Jan'na·i,
[son] of Joseph,
25 [son] of Mat·ta·thi'as,
[son] of A'mos,
[son] of Na'hum,
[son] of Es'li,
[son] of Nag'ga·i,
26 [son] of Ma'ath,
[son] of Mat·ta·thi'as,
[son] of Sem'e·in,
[son] of Jo'sech,
[son] of Jo'da,
27 [son] of Jo·an'an,
[son] of Rhe'sa,
[son] of Ze·rub'ba·bel,
[son] of She·al'ti·el,
[son] of Ne'ri,
28 [son] of Mel'chi,
[son] of Ad'di,
[son] of Co'sam,
[son] of El·ma'dam,
[son] of Er,
29 [son] of Jesus,
[son] of E·li·e'zer,
[son] of Jo'rim,
[son] of Mat'that,
[son] of Le'vi,
30 [son] of Sym'e·on,
[son] of Judas,
[son] of Joseph,
[son] of Jo'nam,
[son] of E·li'a·kim,
31 [son] of Me'le·a,
[son] of Men'na,
[son] of Mat'ta·tha,
[son] of Nathan,
[son] of David,
32 [son] of Jes'se,
[son] of O'bed,
[son] of Bo'az,
[son] of Sal'mon,
[son] of Nah'shon,
33 [son] of Am·min'a·dab,
[son] of Ar'ni,
[son] of Hez'ron,
[son] of Pe'rez,
[son] of Judah,
34 [son] of Jacob,
[son] of Isaac,
[son] of Abraham,
[son] of Te'rah,
[son] of Na'hor,
35 [son] of Se'rug,
[son] of Re'u,
[son] of Pe'leg,
[son] of E'ber,
[son] of She'lah,
36 [son] of Ca·i'nan,
[son] of Ar·pach'shad,
[son] of Shem,
[son] of Noah,
[son] of La'mech,
37 [son] of Me·thu'se·lah,
[son] of E'noch,
[son] of Ja'red,
[son] of Ma·ha'la·le·el,
[son] of Ca·i'nan,
38 [son] of E'nosh,
[son] of Seth,
[son] of Adam,
[son] of God.
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Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message -
From: "Jon Gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated


> >From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
> >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:10:21 -0500
> >
> >At 11:43 PM 11/26/2002 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >> >I'm going to guess it's the Social Security system he's referring
to.
> > >>  >I'm sure he'll let us know if I'm right.
> > >>
> > >>  Indeed, we have a winner. :)
> > >
> > >As opposed to anyone under 40 who's paying into Social Security.
> >
> >Which is why I can't consider FDR to be a great President - for saddling
> >America's future generations with this disaster.
> >
> >JDG
>
> John,
>
> My family barely survived one year (when I was quite young) and wouldn't
> have if it weren't for temporary use of SSDI and unemployment benefits.
>
> Have you ever had to depend on unemployment and/or SSDI as a temporary,
sole
> source of income to feed your children?  I suspect you haven't. From
> experience, it tends to make one more sympathetic to the plight of others
> who have.
>
> I do think the SSI/SSDI system is overtaxed and taken advantage of, yes.
> But the concept itself has, I know from personal experience, helped many
> people who need a hand.  I'm obviously referring here to people who might
> need a temporary boost, or to a retiree living on a fixed income and not
> people who are milking the system.
>
> A followup Q: does this mean you would also like to eliminate unemployment
> benefits?  They certainly seem to be in the same category...
>

Same story here. My dad died in 75 and my brother died in 76. If it were not
for SS benefits, we would have had nearly no income for my mom to support
herself and six children with. As it was, we had nearly no income to support
us when you include the SS benefits. When you can barely pay the bills
Christmas is pretty sparse, as are birthdays, and the like.

xponent
We Had Each Other Maru
rob


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Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Kevin Tarr]

At 10:43 AM 11/28/2002 +1000, you wrote:

Kevin Tarr wrote:


 I'm pulling new electric, cable, and phone wires for each room, plus 
other things. Maybe new whole house AC, but will wait to see how much 
new insulation helps.

Ducting is whole lot easier while you're ripping into things than to come 
back and do it later.
Unless you're looking at having several head units in strategic locations 
(which means only the refrigeration pipes need to traverse the house 
between the main compressor and the head units instead of running full 
ducts), then make the decision now.

The room I'm in now will be the last of six because it's currently the 
nicest. I'd like to move or remove a wall to redo the kitchen, wondering 
if I should consult an architect or interior design person. Any 
suggestion/experiences?

A builder. I've seen too many people remove/relocate a wall only to 
discover that the wall had some load bearing function.

A friend who is helping has made one great suggestion and two bad ones. 
He thinks the nine foot ceilings are too much and should put in drop 
ceilings, and replace my cast iron drain pipes with PVC while I have the 
walls open. I hate drop ceilings (visually) and I hate PVC drain pipes (noise).

Depending on the age of the house (well, of the plumbing to be precise), 
it may be worthwhile replacing the cast iron pipes with new cast iron 
pipes. The old ones will have layers of rust, calcium and general gunk in 
them dramatically reducing their effectiveness. Same applies for water 
supply pipes.
Either that or put in PVC (much easier and cheaper) and then jam 
insulation around them before you reclad the walls.
Depending on the climate, I'd keep the 9 foot ceilings. They're coming 
back into vogue here now as an extra cost option when you contract to have 
a house built. Cooler in summer and a more open and airy feel to the room.

Cheers
Russell C.

Kevin T.
One person, yet the laundry never stops.


(and nor will the renovations and repairs once you start...)



Never mind about my other post, wondering if they are getting lost. Some 
people are e-mailing from the future. What are tonight's powerball numbers? 
I'll share.

Thank you for the reply. Going backwards: southern PA is the climate. Trust 
me, dropped ceilings were never an option, but he says it every time. I can 
stand the lower heat settings, I do great with my fuel costs, but the 
summers are horrid. The house has complete exposure east, west, and south. 
Sometime days it was 85 at 5am inside, while 70 outside. I know about 
getting the heat out, but sometimes can't.
That does seem like a good idea, with the PVC pipes. I know I 'should' 
replace the iron, but I don't want to; at least 75 years old. That decision 
is far in the future. It's a whole complicated mess: The bathroom is big, I 
could put in shower and whirlpool. But I'd have to keep the one wall I'd 
like to remove in place for that extra weight. My kitchen, limited by this 
wall, is very small, the sink, stove and most cabinets are in another room 
from fridge and table. Yes a builder is a good idea. But again: that is far 
in the future, the last phase.
I understand about the duct work, I have to think about it. There are other 
considerations.

Kevin T.
But again: thank you.

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Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

[John D. Giorgis]

At 07:23 PM 11/27/2002 -0500 John Garcia should have wrote:
>As for Reagan's greatness, I'll stack him up against ANY President in the 
>latter half of the 20th Century. All pale in comparison.

:)
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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[John D. Giorgis]

At 06:29 PM 11/27/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote:
>Yeshua's father joseph has two geaneologies, both different from each
>other, listed in matthew, and luke.

One is possibly the genealogy of Mary.

JDG
___
John D. Giorgis -   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern
them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female;
 own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of 
freedom are right and true for every person,  in every society -- and the 
duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common 
calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages.
-US National Security Policy, 2002
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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Kevin Tarr]

At 06:29 PM 11/27/2002 -0600, you wrote:


- Original Message -
From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "BRIN-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)


> on 27/11/02 1:48 pm, Richard Baker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Jeroen said:
> >
> >> QED lies are evil.
> >
> > Not at all. The statement "lies are evil" might more accurately be
> > stated "all lies are evil". John G gave a counterexample,
>
> Which was flawed.
>
> > so the
> > statement "all lies are evil" is not true. You've only given a
> > counterexample to the statement "no lies are evil". We're left,
> > therefore, with "some but not all lies are evil".
>
> No, all lies are still evil.
>

"No honey, those pants don't make you look fat."

I rest my case.


xponent
You Gotta Be Stupid Not Have Seen That Coming Maru

rob


To be follow by the crowd pleaser: 'It's the pint of ice cream and sitting 
on the sofa every night from 5 - 10 that make you 'look' fat.'

Kevin T.
Have I been dinged? I don't see my e-mails coming back. (Not a bad thing, 
my connection is much faster again.)

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Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Russell Chapman]

Kevin Tarr wrote:


 I'm pulling new electric, cable, and phone wires for each room, plus 
other things. Maybe new whole house AC, but will wait to see how much 
new insulation helps. 

Ducting is whole lot easier while you're ripping into things than to 
come back and do it later.
Unless you're looking at having several head units in strategic 
locations (which means only the refrigeration pipes need to traverse the 
house between the main compressor and the head units instead of running 
full ducts), then make the decision now.

The room I'm in now will be the last of six because it's currently the 
nicest. I'd like to move or remove a wall to redo the kitchen, 
wondering if I should consult an architect or interior design person. 
Any suggestion/experiences?

A builder. I've seen too many people remove/relocate a wall only to 
discover that the wall had some load bearing function.

A friend who is helping has made one great suggestion and two bad 
ones. He thinks the nine foot ceilings are too much and should put in 
drop ceilings, and replace my cast iron drain pipes with PVC while I 
have the walls open. I hate drop ceilings (visually) and I hate PVC 
drain pipes (noise).

Depending on the age of the house (well, of the plumbing to be precise), 
it may be worthwhile replacing the cast iron pipes with new cast iron 
pipes. The old ones will have layers of rust, calcium and general gunk 
in them dramatically reducing their effectiveness. Same applies for 
water supply pipes.
Either that or put in PVC (much easier and cheaper) and then jam 
insulation around them before you reclad the walls.
Depending on the climate, I'd keep the 9 foot ceilings. They're coming 
back into vogue here now as an extra cost option when you contract to 
have a house built. Cooler in summer and a more open and airy feel to 
the room.

Cheers
Russell C.

Kevin T.
One person, yet the laundry never stops.


(and nor will the renovations and repairs once you start...)


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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[William T Goodall]

on 28/11/02 12:29 am, Robert Seeberger at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>> 
>> No, all lies are still evil.
>> 
> 
> "No honey, those pants don't make you look fat."
> 
> I rest my case.
> 

But 'honey' was probably asking because she intends to go out in  public and
be seen by lots of people wearing *those* pants.

Now what's evil?

-- 
William T Goodall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/


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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[The Fool]

> From: J. van Baardwijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> At 11:58 27-11-2002 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote:
> 
> >The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the people who insist
that 
> >it is literal truth, and those fundamentalists are obviously misled 
> >anyway, because the Bible can't *possibly* all be literal truth, as 
> >evidenced by the contradictions I mentioned above.
> 
> You only mentioned the *existence* of contradictions, you did not give
any 
> *examples* of contradictions in the bible. Someone who has never read
the 
> bible might not be familiar with any contradictions in it, so you
should 
> provide one or two examples.

Aaron dies twice: once at mount sinai, once again forty years later
before entering the promised land.

Yeshua's father joseph has two geaneologies, both different from each
other, listed in matthew, and luke.

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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message -
From: "William T Goodall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "BRIN-L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)


> on 27/11/02 1:48 pm, Richard Baker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Jeroen said:
> >
> >> QED lies are evil.
> >
> > Not at all. The statement "lies are evil" might more accurately be
> > stated "all lies are evil". John G gave a counterexample,
>
> Which was flawed.
>
> > so the
> > statement "all lies are evil" is not true. You've only given a
> > counterexample to the statement "no lies are evil". We're left,
> > therefore, with "some but not all lies are evil".
>
> No, all lies are still evil.
>

"No honey, those pants don't make you look fat."

I rest my case.


xponent
You Gotta Be Stupid Not Have Seen That Coming Maru

rob


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Something fun based on Something Scouted. :)

[Jon Gabriel]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/27/business/media/27MAG.html

The National Enquirer's owner is expected to announce the purchase Weider 
Publications, the publisher of Muscle & Fitness and Shape.


Possible Brinnellian headlines for the new Shape and Muscle & Fitness 
covers:

Get healthier skin: 4 'when to shed' tips from Soro Queen 'Spork'.
Arnold Schwarzenegger speaks out about the Pila and Eyedrop Abuse.
Jophur pharmacist arrested for selling Phen Phen under the ring.
Shocking Expose: "Hoonish Diet Protein Shakes" a Scam
Build a better body (and a second head) in just 30 days.
Our new Bench Pressing regime from Gorilla Ooga
The best diet ever!  (Hint, it involves Steroids & Anal Probes)
Can't stop eating?  Try our new exploding cheesecake recipe from Tymbrimi 
Chef Sirellicalluana

Any takers?
:-)
Jon

_
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

[John Garcia]

On Wednesday, November 27, 2002, at 12:10  AM, John D. Giorgis wrote:


At 11:43 PM 11/26/2002 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I'm going to guess it's the Social Security system he's referring 
to.
I'm sure he'll let us know if I'm right.

 Indeed, we have a winner. :)


As opposed to anyone under 40 who's paying into Social Security.


Which is why I can't consider FDR to be a great President - for 
saddling
America's future generations with this disaster.

JDG
___

Your complaint should be with successive administrations and 
legislatures who expanded Social Security to an unsustainable point.

As for FDR's greatness, I'll stack him up against ANY President in the 
latter half of the 20th Century. All pale in comparison.

john

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Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

[Robert Seeberger]

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 6:52 AM
Subject: RE: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated


> > -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> > Van: Robert Seeberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 6:23
> > Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Onderwerp: Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
>
> > > Which is why I can't consider FDR to be a great President - for
> > > saddling America's future generations with this disaster.
> > >
> > Ahh..and what was the situation before the advent of social
> > security?
>
> Educated guess: poverty, alcohol abuse, violence (domestic and otherwise)
> due to alcohol abuse, suicides.
>

Quibble: Vilolence (domestic and otherwise) is not due to alcohol, it is a
predisposition. Blaming alcohol (or any other drug) is just an excuse.
And IMO its no excuse at all.


xponent
Wonderful Life Maru
rob


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Re: Scouted: Googlism

[Russell Chapman]

J. van Baardwijk wrote:


jeroen died of viral myocarditis
jeroen unfortunately died on January 22, 1999
jeroen has been cured 


Medicine is pretty advanced in the Netherlands...



Cheers
Russell C.


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Fwd: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradi...

[Robert D. Zimmerman]

Return-Path:  
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:54:57 EST 
Subject: Fwd: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradi... 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

In a message dated 11/26/2002 12:39:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

On the other hand, the right of Congress to declare war has been
eviscerated, the limitations on the powers of Congress in article II have
been eviscerated, the 9th and 10th amendments are virtually  meaningless,
the US government now has trillions of dollars of debt, the US government
is the country's single largest operator of a pyramid-Ponzi scheme, and a
group of unelected justices overturned the electorates desire to  protect
unborn human life.


Let me get this straight. You think that a majority of the americans favor outlawing abortion? You think that issues such as this should be decided by a majority? When you speak of justices are you referring to the court that went against all of its philosophical beliefs to intervene in a state courts ruling about a state law? But of course it is likely that you will get what you want. The current court seems to have no problem with ignoring or rewriting the constitution to suit its conservative agenda.




In many respects, it could be argued that we could have done much  better
than the US Constitution.



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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:24:23 -0500 
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From: "John D. Giorgis"  
Subject: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it 
must be eradicated 
In-Reply-To:  
References:  






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At 07:39 PM 11/24/2002 -0600 Dan Minette wrote: 
>> The US Constitution has been subject to hundreds of years of 
>> verification. It seems to work fairly well. 

On the other hand, the right of Congress to declare war has been 
eviscerated, the limitations on the powers of Congress in article II have 
been eviscerated, the 9th and 10th amendments are virtually meaningless, 
the US government now has trillions of dollars of debt, the US government 
is the country's single largest operator of a pyramid-Ponzi scheme, and a 
group of unelected justices overturned the electorates desire to protect 
unborn human life. 

In many respects, it could be argued that we could have done much better 
than the US Constitution. 

JDG 

___ 
John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern 
them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; 
own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of 
freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the 
duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common 
calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. 
-US National Security Policy, 2002 
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Fwd: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Robert D. Zimmerman]

Return-Path:  
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 20:34:25 EST 
Subject: Fwd: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 



True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine. 
Well, probably.  It's not impossible that some of the
real fanatics in both fields would cause problems
there, but not at most places.  In Berkeley you might
have problems, for example, no matter what field
you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example,
I'd be okay.


Hey I am at Cornell, we don't want you right wing nut jobs. But we could still have dinner



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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:59:26 -0800 (PST) 
From: Gautam Mukunda  
Subject: Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated 
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> > Of course, as a conservative, my odds of actually 
> > getting an academic job are essentially zero, but 
> > that's the way these things work nowadays... 
> > 
> > Gautam 
> 
> You're just in the wrong field . . . 
> -- Ronn! :) 

True - in economics or the hard sciences I'd be fine. 
Well, probably. It's not impossible that some of the 
real fanatics in both fields would cause problems 
there, but not at most places. In Berkeley you might 
have problems, for example, no matter what field 
you're in, but at Dartmouth or Cornell, for example, 
I'd be okay. 

Gautam 

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Re: Bush Seeks To Roll-Back Clean Air Rules

[Kevin Tarr]

> Existing rules require U.S. utilities and refineries to invest in
> state-of-the-art pollution controls if a plant undergoes a major
> expansion or modification. The issue is pivotal for aging coal-fired
> utilities in the Midwest that could face hundreds of millions of dollars
> in new investments.  Under the proposed rules, the EPA would change the
> definition of "routine maintenance" to give utilities more leeway to
> modify a plant without triggering extra pollution-reduction requirements.

So let's say that a coal fired power plant wanted to upgrade their steam
turbines to a new design that was 15 percent more efficient than their
previous design.  Under the old (Clinton era) rules, this would trigger the
EPA to force "new source review"; killing the upgrade because of the
hundreds of millions of dollars to upgrade the entire plant to the highest
achievable standards.  So instead of being 15 percent more efficient, plants
are only being maintained and not improved.   Maybe you would like to
explain how in this case the Clinton era policy actually helps the
environment?

The Bush "rollback" consists of putting the "new source review" back to
where it belongs, namely in ensuring that any new power plant be built to
utilize the best pollution fighting technology available.  Old coal plants
are by definition "old".  They should be allowed to upgrade as necessary
without being burdened with regulations that only brand new power plants
should adhere to.

> Critics also warned that the new proposal could endanger ongoing
> lawsuits brought by the EPA against nine U.S. utilities to enforce the
> new source review rules.

Always important to sue utility companies.  It's only one of the ways the
government makes everything we buy just a little more expensive.  And maybe
a little less cleaner than they should be.

Hanging with the Anti-Christ,
Matthew Bos



Rah rah! Another true answer, not rhetoric like the journalists like to push.

Your posts are too few and far between Matthew, but quality makes up for 
quantity a hundred-fold.

Kevin T.
No added value(my post)

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Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Kevin Tarr]

A rubber mallet is a very useful thing.  I think we could use another
one around here.

Crescent wrenches aren't too bad.  A crescent wrench implies something
that's already tooled to fit together, just needing tightening or
something.  (Of course, you can over-tighten, and get problems that
way.  Fortunately, Bowflex will send replacement bolts if you ask them.)

> To be fair I have to admit that although Jeroen is somewhat of a dummy 
at any
> form of constructive DIY he is very good at the destructive kind. Last year
> he spent almost a week getting down all the plaster (stripping the 
whole lot
> back to the brikwork where necessary) from all the walls and ceilings 
in our
> hallway (with a simple chisel and a klaw hammer). It was a lot of plaster
> that came off those walls. I believe it took about 700 kg dry weight to
> replace it all.

Wow.

I don't like plaster.  Too hard to get anything into it to hang things,
was my experience at my mother's new (actually, rather old) house.  (I
say new because she bought it in 1999, but it was built in the 1930s.
At least, the original part of it was.  It had an addition sometime
before 1980, and then another one IIRC in 1992.  The last addition is a
nice large room, on the order of 6m X 6m.)  I've got a system worked out
now for putting things up when it's wood studs for the frame and drywall
for the wall surface.

Julia


Three relevant points in one posts! I almost feel like e-mailing off list, 
but that's gotten a bad rap lately. First the Bowflex: you have one? You 
like? My gym membership runs out soon and while I'm much stronger and 
healthier than I was last year, the other reasons I joined this gym have 
gone away. It will be good for me to drop the membership. I already have 
home free weights and a chepo bench, but was wondering about a machine. I 
saw this:

http://healthfxamerica.com/

which is much cheaper.

While I'm not a serious mechanic anymore, my favorite tool(s) you had to 
special order from sears. They are tappet wrenches. Couldn't find an easy 
link, and don't know if they make them in metric. They have a thinner head 
than a normal wrench, with two sizes on each wrench, and are longer. My 
four wrenches saw more action than any other tool in my belt pouch.

Still haven't started yet, waiting for the mad season to be over with: 
Sonja, what do you mean about the weight of the plaster replaced, 700kg? Do 
you mean that 50kg came off a wall that had to be replaced with something 
else, or that was truly the weight of the material that was new?

I've got my house mapped out, home much surface material and insulation 
I'll need and the current costs. I'm pulling new electric, cable, and phone 
wires for each room, plus other things. Maybe new whole house AC, but will 
wait to see how much new insulation helps. The room I'm in now will be the 
last of six because it's currently the nicest. I'd like to move or remove a 
wall to redo the kitchen, wondering if I should consult an architect or 
interior design person. Any suggestion/experiences?

A friend who is helping has made one great suggestion and two bad ones. He 
thinks the nine foot ceilings are too much and should put in drop ceilings, 
and replace my cast iron drain pipes with PVC while I have the walls open. 
I hate drop ceilings (visually) and I hate PVC drain pipes (noise).

Kevin T.
One person, yet the laundry never stops.

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Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

[Jon Gabriel]

From: "John D. Giorgis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:10:21 -0500

At 11:43 PM 11/26/2002 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> >I'm going to guess it's the Social Security system he's referring to.
>>  >I'm sure he'll let us know if I'm right.
>>
>>  Indeed, we have a winner. :)
>
>As opposed to anyone under 40 who's paying into Social Security.

Which is why I can't consider FDR to be a great President - for saddling
America's future generations with this disaster.

JDG


John,

My family barely survived one year (when I was quite young) and wouldn't 
have if it weren't for temporary use of SSDI and unemployment benefits.

Have you ever had to depend on unemployment and/or SSDI as a temporary, sole 
source of income to feed your children?  I suspect you haven't. From 
experience, it tends to make one more sympathetic to the plight of others 
who have.

I do think the SSI/SSDI system is overtaxed and taken advantage of, yes.  
But the concept itself has, I know from personal experience, helped many 
people who need a hand.  I'm obviously referring here to people who might 
need a temporary boost, or to a retiree living on a fixed income and not 
people who are milking the system.

A followup Q: does this mean you would also like to eliminate unemployment 
benefits?  They certainly seem to be in the same category...

Jon

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RE: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 14:37 27-11-2002 -0500, Jean-Louis Couturier wrote:


In a typically brinellian way, Reggies demonstrates a willingness to undergo
severe metal anguish to prove himself right.


Hey, I thought that was *my* prerogative!

Er... um... er... forget I said that...   


Jeroen

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Survey: French make most love

[J. van Baardwijk]

LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Couples in France make love the most 
frequently, a survey by a condom manufacturer indicated on Monday.

Britons report having sex more often than Americans and Spaniards, but are 
outdone between the sheets by the French, Dutch, Danes and Canadians, 
according to the non-scientific survey.

The Durex Global Sex survey revealed that the French report making love an 
average of 167 times a year, beating couples in the Netherlands (158), 
Denmark (152), Canada (150) and Britain (149).

Those taking their love-making at a more relaxed pace included Americans 
(138 times a year), New Zealanders, (135) and the Spanish, who limped in at 
an annual love rate of just 121.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/11/25/offbeat.britain.sex.reut/index.html



Jeroen "Make love, not war" van Baardwijk

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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 11:58 27-11-2002 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote:


The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the people who insist that 
it is literal truth, and those fundamentalists are obviously misled 
anyway, because the Bible can't *possibly* all be literal truth, as 
evidenced by the contradictions I mentioned above.

You only mentioned the *existence* of contradictions, you did not give any 
*examples* of contradictions in the bible. Someone who has never read the 
bible might not be familiar with any contradictions in it, so you should 
provide one or two examples.


Jeroen

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Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

[J. van Baardwijk]

At 12:02 27-11-2002 -0500, William Taylor wrote:


> > Governments do not generate income.
>
>  Actually, they do. It is called "taxes". (My apology for using a dirty
>  word.)
>

Agreed. But the taxes have to come from people who have incomes. Governments
do not generate people's incomes.


True; people generate their own income by working for it. Of course, it 
might be argued that the income of people in the Civil Service is generated 
by most of the population, as these people are paid with taxpayers' money.

Allow me to use this opportunity to send a big "Thanks!" to Ticia for her 
contributions to my paycheck!   :-)


At some point, the taxes become high enough that more lower income people
give up and become sucklers instead of sows.


Sucklers? Sows? What are those?



>  > They can't pull money for entitlements out of thin air.
>
>  Correct -- that is why we pay taxes.

And if the tax base decreases but expenditures remain constant?


Then the government will have to commit the mother of all cruel acts: raise 
taxes.   


>  > I think the disaster point is when it'll take three workers to pay for
>  > one retired person.
>
>  That is not so much a disaster but a case of real lousy long-term 
planning.

Long term planning unfortunately means almost nothing but looking towrds
one's re-election.

That is a politician's viewpoint; when I say "long-term planning" I am 
thinking more along the lines of planning ahead for the several decades.


If Social Security today was the same as when it was started, it would work.


Social Security over here has not changed all that much over time, it is 
the age distribution of the population that has changed. Our biggest 
problem with Social Security right now is State Pensions. When it was first 
set up (1950's IIRC) there were many young people and relatively few old 
people, so paying for it was not a problem. However, the guy who set it up 
did not think of the fact that those young people would some day be old 
enough to apply for a State Pension, and that there might not be enough 
younger people then to pay for it. He also did not (but probably could not) 
foresee that old people would live longer, and thus would be receiving a 
State Pension longer.


Jeroen

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Scouted: Galileo wakes from radiation-induced coma

[Jon Gabriel]

From CNN:

Galileo wakes from radiation-induced coma

By Richard Stenger
CNN
Wednesday, November 27, 2002 Posted: 9:57 AM EST (1457 GMT)
(CNN) -- An aging Jupiter probe that shut down during its final and most 
daring scientific mission has resumed normal operations, according to NASA.

The Galileo spacecraft, which went silent November 5 after making its 
closest approach to Jupiter, is now in good working order, except for its 
tape recorder, mission scientists said this week.

The instrument stored data recorded during the flyby, which brought Galileo 
within 44,500 miles (71,500 kilometers) of Jupiter's visible clouds.

"It appears that the tape recorder has taken a hit from the intense 
radiation Galileo passed through. Our efforts to restore the tape recorder 
may continue for a few weeks," said Eilene Theilig, lead Galileo scientist 
at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

The descent, the most dangerous since Galileo arrived in the giant planet 
system seven years ago, took the ship deep into the dangerous radiation 
belts enveloping Jupiter.

Galileo, which has endured four times as much radiation as it was designed 
to withstand, shuts down automatically when faced with high radiation 
levels, a reflexive response called "safe mode" intended to protect its 
sensitive electronics.

The $1.4 billion craft has survived other deep forays into the radiation 
belts, but the one in November subjected it to twice as much radiation as 
any previous encounter.

The repeated energy bathes have taken a toll in recent years. Galileo's 
camera is now shuttered and its tape player has become stuck several times.

NASA engineers have always managed to unblock the tape player, but 
diagnostic tests suggest that the current problem is different.

They hope to fix the recording device to download data from the November 5 
dive, which took Galileo within 100 miles (160 kilometers) of the tiny inner 
moon Amalthea and inside Jupiter's little studied "gossamer" ring, an 
extremely faint and diffuse debris band outside the planet's main ring.

The observations include information about dust levels, charged particles 
and possibly the composition and density of Amalthea, an oddly shaped 
satellite about 155 miles (250 kilometers) wide.

Whether the data is recovered or not, Galileo, nearly spent of fuel, remains 
on a collision course with Jupiter in September 2003.

The fatal plunge is to ensure that the bus-sized robot ship does not strike 
and contaminate the large moon Europa, thought to possess a vast subsurface 
ocean that could harbor microbial life.


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Re: Catholic View of Sex

[Kevin Tarr]

At 12:28 AM 11/26/2002 -0500, you wrote:

At 09:34 PM 11/24/2002 -0500 K. Feete wrote:
>I'm living with a girl who's strongly Catholic right now. I don't
>understand her, and she doesn't understand me, but we've learned which
>subjects to avoid (sex is the biggie) and we get along very well.

Why do you avoid this topic?   My best friend is a firm believer that
premarital sex is something to be encouraged.   Yet, even though we
disagree totally, we learn a lot from our disagreements.

JDG


You four should go on a double date then. In fact make it a series of four 
dates, so you switch partners twice.*

Kevin T.
*I mean after the initial awkwardness of the first date, you have a second 
date with the same person so you can have more relaxed conversations, then 
switch partners.

**Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-)

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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

"K. Feete" wrote:

> Superstition and irrational beliefs occur with or without religion.
> Witness Skinner's "superstitious" pigeons, or my conviction that
> mentioning the fact that it's raining if I want it to rain will make the
> rain stop. 
>

I thought that's what umbrellas are for. Bring one and it won't rain, forget
yours and it will pour. No? ;o)

Sonja

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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Dan Minette wrote:

> One needs to look at sources that support one's view with the same critical
> eye as those that oppose it. Technique is a good starting point.


I think that that is scientifically incorrect. You first need to try to
disprove your own point in all possible ways to be able to prove it. So you
need to look more closely at the opposing sources.


Sonja

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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/27/2002 2:43:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Should the Democratic party be eradicated because of the illegal actions 
>of Bill Clinton?

[I think they're doing a good enough job of that all by themselves.]

[and don't forget Hillary.]

William Taylor
-
I want a choice again.
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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

Alberto Monteiro wrote:

> Jeroen wrote:
> >
> > However, given the worship of the Almighty Dollar by
> > some people, one cannot help but wonder if Capitalism
> > qualifies as a religion...   :-)
> >
> Not Capitalism, but just one perverted sect of capitalism
> that believes that the dollar is worth anything but
> what is written in it.

Reminds me of how that American expert on counterfitting so charmingly
put it, when interviewed by the BBC on the subject of why the dollar
isn't made more frauderesistant by adding additional safety features:
The dollar basically is our money but in essential it is your problem
not ours.

Sonja :o)

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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

The Fool wrote:

> > From: Alberto Monteiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> >
> > Reggie Bautista asked:
> > >
> > >Kneem, should the Republican party be eradicated because of the
> illegal
> > >actions of Richard Nixon?  Should the Democratic party be eradicated
> because
> > >of the illegal actions of Bill Clinton?
> > >
> > Should Democracy be banned because eventually we [*] elect a jerk,
> > a tyrant, a thief or a megalomaniac?
> >
> > Alberto Monteiro
> >
> > 
> > [*] "we" must be taken as a generalization, and I am not
> > thinking about any specific election that happened recently
> > in any country.
> > 
>
> Bullshit.  Bush is all of those things and you know it.

Not quite. If I remember my history correctly Hitler was elected, so was
Mussolini and if I'm not totally mistaken a few other proven megalomaniacs
and or thieves and or  etc. as well.

Sonja

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Re: Scouted: Women prefer HDTV to Diamonds???

[Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten]

"Ronn! Blankenship" wrote:

> I think Julia did not take a good look at the items I suggested.  Might I
> suggest she click on the "See larger picture" link or read the reviewers'
> descriptions?  (If she does, I think she will see why the shipping
> restrictions are not a problem . . . )

ROTFLMAO I missed it the first time I looked. But you maybe right. That might just 
be it. At least Jeroen can't do any
major damage to the house or himself using those. On the other hand he would be hard 
pressed keeping Tom out of this kind
of toolkit, seen the interest little Tom already developed for mamies grown ups 
toolbox. 

Sonja

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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[The Fool]

> From: John D. Giorgis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> At 04:59 PM 11/25/2002 -0600 The Fool wrote:
> >> Hum. The dark ages, IIRC, were a result of invading barbarians
> >destroying 
> >> a weakened Rome. The Catholic Church helped preserve what knowledge
was
> >
> >> left and bring them to the end. 
> >
> >The catholic church did ten times as much damage as the sacking of
Rome
> >ever did.
> 
> Well, as a statement, I find this particularly unconvincing.   Perhaps
you
> should try backing it up.

I said I would get to my anti-religion/christ essay sometime in jan/feb.
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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[The Fool]

> From: Bryon Daly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> The Fool - Isn't "religion is evil" a rather broad statement?  Do you
really

No.  It is an exact statement.

> believe ALL religions are inherently evil?  Do no religions do any good
for

Yes.

> the world so that they must all be eradicated?

No, yes.

> As for the Crusades: http://www.angelfire.com/ky/dodone/Crusades.html .
> It took quite long, but I think civilization is slowly maturing -- and
so are
> our religions (despite the fact some seem lodged in the past and are
only
> maturing reluctantly).
> 
> Looking at the world *today*, can you really say that all of the
world's
> religions *as a whole* ultimately produce more far more bad than good
in
> the world?

Yes.

> Remember two things - 1) much of the world's charity is
> organized/administered by religions and 2) Just as you say that some

Bullshit.  The U.S. gives the smallest percent of it's gdp as foreign aid
(of all industrialized nations), but that number is still larger than
what any other nation gives as aid by a wide margin.

> people commit evil for their god, there are many (and I'd say far more)
> who commit good for their god.

Spreading, irrationality, anti-science, esoteric Trvth, wars in any
number of nations, and other things aren't evil?

>  And I'd say the threat/promise of an
> afterlife that many religions have has a net postive effect.

Spreading the Threat And/Or promise of an afterlife is single most evil
thing religion does.  It's what gives terrorists the ability to commit
massive kamikaze attacks against innocents.

> What justifies your absolutism to say religion must be eradicated?

Anything that preaches irrational ideas as rational is something that has
to be stopped.

>  Does
> this absolutism apply to other institutions and facets of life?

Yes.

>  You
> never responded to other people's analogous questions, so I'll pose
some
> here:

> - The Germans committed many evil, terrible atrocities in WWII.  Should
all
> Germans today be eradicated?

You are Creating a false dichotomy.

> - Alcohol has ruined lives, caused countless deaths, and probably even
caused
> a number of wars.  Should alcohol be abolished?

Yes.

> - Some people will put forward a fervent case replete with proof that
the USA
> (aka "Great Satan") -or perhpas even all western civilization- is quite
evil and
> should be eradicated.  Would you agree?

That is irrational and religious.  Why would I advocate
irrational/religious conspiracies?

> Honestly, I don't think anyone here is strongly debating whether
assorted
> religions are responsible for some evils of the past/present.   The
thing is that
> you're overlooking a great many other factors, such as the fact that
religions are
> human institutions and are subject to human fallibilities just like
everything else
> we do.   Also, economic factors play/played a big role in much
religious zealotry
> of the present and past.  Blaming religion without considering things
such as
> these is only seeing a small part of the picture.

Religions were created because of the fear of death.  Taking away that
fear of death allows people to kill others at will: because those others
they kill don't really die, they go so some mythical plane of being.

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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Reggie Bautista]

The Fool quoted a bunch of biblical quotes to show how the Bible endorses 
slavery and the divine right of kings.

My reply:

This is why a literal interpretation of the Bible is problematic at best.  
For each of these passages, there are other passages that can be quoted that 
contradict them (I don't have the time or patience to do a search right now, 
but I may have time sometime next week).  The Bible is great as a historical 
document.  The Bible is also great as a philosophical treatise.  It even 
includes a little history among all the parable and allegory.  But it should 
not be taken as literal truth or literal direction.

Reggie Bautista
The above paragraph is IMHO, YMMV, as usual.


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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[The Fool]

> From: Nick Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> > Behalf Of The Fool
> 
> ...
> 
> > > conquestadors, slavery, apartheid, and feudal systems were
political
> > and
> >
> > conquistadors: conquer, take gold, convert to catholicism.  Notice
how
> > most of south America is adamantly catholic?
> 
> I don't think there's any question that the primary goal, far and away,
was
> material.  And there's a very good argument that Catholicism was (and
still
> often is) abused by the minority to retain political and economic
power.
> The fact that religion can be misused so effectively doesn't prove that
it
> is bad, only that it is very powerful.
> 
> > Slavery was ever aided and abetted by the bible, the bible says
slavery
> > is OK, tells how to mark slaves, how to treat slaves, how to sell
slaves,
> > how to free slaves (except female slaves).  It was the religious who
used
> > the bible as justification for slavery in the south,
before-during-after
> > the civil war.
> 
> Same argument as above.  The war was about economics and states'
rights,
> wasn't it?

No.


Titus 2:9-10
 Let slaves be in subjection to their owners in all things, and please
them well, not talking back, 
 10 not committing theft, but exhibiting good fidelity to the full, so
that they may adorn the teaching of our Savior, God, in all things.

1 Peter 2:18-20
18 Let house servants be in subjection to their owners with all due fear,
not only to the good and reasonable, but also to those hard to please.
 19 For if someone, because of conscience toward God, bears up under
grievous things and suffers unjustly, this is an agreeable thing.
 20 For what merit is there in it if, when YOU are sinning and being
slapped, YOU endure it? But if, when YOU are doing good and YOU suffer,
YOU endure it, this is a thing agreeable with God.

> > divine right of kings:  Kings can do anything because god appointed
them,
> > and so they are acting on behalf of god.  This is a pivotal christian
> > doctrine.
> 
> No, it is most certainly not.  That is a medieval idea that was quite
> self-serving for those in power.  Although the Bible says that leaders
> fulfill God's purposes, it also quite clearly says that the purpose may
be
> to show people a negative example.  Christianity teaches that
*everyone*
> makes mistakes, except Adam before the Fall and Christ.
> 
> You'd do well to learn more about what Christianity actually teaches if
> you're going to criticize it.  Criticism that is based on extreme
> interpretations isn't going to convince the mainstream.  We're not all
> right-wing fundamentalists.

Romans 13:1-4
13 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there
is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in
their relative positions by God.
 2 Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the
arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive
judgment to themselves. 
 3 For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to
the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing
good, and you will have praise from it; 
 4 for it is God's minister to you for your good. But if you are doing
what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the
sword; for it is God's minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one
practicing what is bad.

Colossians 1:16
16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens
and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no
matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or
authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

Titus 3:1-2
3 Continue reminding them to be in subjection and be obedient to
governments and authorities as rulers, to be ready for every good work, 
 2 to speak injuriously of no one, not to be belligerent, to be
reasonable, exhibiting all mildness toward all men.

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Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[The Fool]

> From: Alberto Monteiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> The Fool wrote: 
> >  
> > No.  Which exactly my point.  If I can't prove my own 
> > existence I also can't prove god's existence.  
> > Math exists whether god, the universe, 
> > consciousness, I, etc. exist.  Math is the only thing 
> > that is transcendent.  And those math proofs do exist. 
> >  
> > This may all just be some big matrix I am in, but math 
> > works either way. 
> > 
> What about the Axiom of Choice? Does it exist? Or 
> the Continuum Hypothesis? Does it exist? 

AoC: Neither accepting it or NOT accepting it leads to a contradiction. 
Both are valid.



Analysis of the Continuum One path to finding out if CH is true is to
look for sets of real numbers that have cardinality greater than aleph0
and less than c. If such sets exist, then CH is false. While looking for
these sets mathematicians have decomposed the reals into different types
of sets and come up with characterizations of the reals, continua, and
continuity. 3.3.1 Decomposing the Reals There are many ways to decompose
the reals. We can split the reals into two sets, such as the rational and
irrational numbers or the algebraic and transcendental numbers, or we can
look at types of subsets of the reals, such as Borel sets and non-Borel
sets. The hope is that these decompositions will help us to characterize
the entire set of reals. For example, the rationals provide a good
approximation to the reals because any real number can be approximated
"as closely as you please" by a rational number. This should serve as a
warning though. Despite the rationals' great ability to represent the
reals they are of a different cardinality than the reals. So, just
because a collection of sets is a good approximation of the reals doesn't
mean that it will give us much useful information about cardinality
questions. Bearing this in mind, let's try to understand CH by looking at
sets that, in some sense, represent the reals. 
CH is true for closed, Borel, and analytic sets, i.e.: 
any infinite closed set either has cardinality aleph0 or c. 
any infinite Borel set either has cardinality aleph0 or c. 
any infinite analytic set either has cardinality aleph0 or c. 
This means that if there is a set that falsifies CH, i.e., a set with
cardinality between aleph0 and c, it will not be one of these types of
sets. Since there are only c of these types of sets and there are
2csubsets of R, there are plenty of sets left which might falsify CH! 

http://www.ii.com/math/ch/
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RE: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!

[Reggie Bautista]

Jean-Louis wrote:

In a typically brinellian way, Reggies demonstrates a willingness to 
undergo
severe metal anguish to prove himself right.

> Reggie Bautista
> Truly Puzzled Maru

Either that or you're a masochist.  :-)

Nope, I'm just a compulsive troubleshooter.

Hmm, maybe that *does* make me a masochist :-)

Reggie Bautista
I've been called far worse Maru


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RE: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!

[Jean-Louis Couturier]

De : Reggie Bautista [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> RE: http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html, I wrote:

> I just went back again, and clicked refresh in Internet Explorer to
reload, 
> and still was able to see it.  So I typed the URL in Netscape Navigator, 
> which I had not used previously to view it.  And it came up.  Then I
clicked 
> "Reload" in Netscape and got a message saying it wasn't there.  So I 
> re-typed it and pressed enter.  And it was there.  Then I clicked "Reload"

> again and it wasn't there again.
> So I tried again in Internet Explorer, and it worked 2 out of 5 times.

In a typically brinellian way, Reggies demonstrates a willingness to undergo
severe metal anguish to prove himself right.

> Reggie Bautista
> Truly Puzzled Maru

Either that or you're a masochist.  :-)

Jean-Louis, who woke up with the tune in his mental jukebox and hasn't
shaken it since.
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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Reggie Bautista]

William T. Goodall wrote:

Some Anglican clergy in England (or so I have heard) have the position that
the Bible is parable and metaphor, that some of the historical events *may*
have taken place (although that doesn't really matter), but that none of 
the
miracles actually happened, that there was no actual resurrection, that
Jesus (if he was a historical figure) was not literally the son of God
(since God doesn't literally exist) and so on.

Under this interpretation the Bible could be interpreted as not making any
counterfactual claims and therefore possibly not lying.

But I don't think that is the interpretation of all Christians who are not
fundamentalists.

True, it's probably not the interpretation of all Christians who are not 
fundamentalists, but it's at least pretty close to the interpretation of 
this particular (more or less) Christian who is definitely not a 
fundamentalist.

The original thing that started this whole discussion was a "proof" that 
religion is evil because of lies.  If, in my case, my religion is not a lie, 
then in my case, at least, religion is not evil based on that proof.

Now, if you'd care to revise the proof...

:-)

Reggie Bautista


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Re: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!

[Reggie Bautista]

RE: http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html, I wrote:


I just clicked on the link
and it opened a new browser window and took me right there.


William T. Goodall replied:

You must have some caching going on, because it is gone.


I just went back again, and clicked refresh in Internet Explorer to reload, 
and still was able to see it.  So I typed the URL in Netscape Navigator, 
which I had not used previously to view it.  And it came up.  Then I clicked 
"Reload" in Netscape and got a message saying it wasn't there.  So I 
re-typed it and pressed enter.  And it was there.  Then I clicked "Reload" 
again and it wasn't there again.

So I tried again in Internet Explorer, and it worked 2 out of 5 times.

Very strange.  Perhaps something is working strangely at mac.com's 
webserver?

Reggie Bautista
Truly Puzzled Maru


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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[William T Goodall]

on 27/11/02 5:58 pm, Reggie Bautista at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> William T Goodall wrote:
 No, all lies are still evil.
> 
> I replied:
>>> Fiction is a form of creative lying (fictional stories are, by
>> definition,
>>> not true, and anything not true must be a lie, right?).  So is fiction
>> evil?
> 
> William responded:
>> Lie - a false statement made with the intention of deceiving: anything
>> misleading or of the nature of imposture.
>> 
>> Fiction doesn't pretend to be true, and therefore isn't a lie.
> 
> Not all Christians are fundamentalists who insist on the literal truth of
> the Bible.  Many Christians interpret most of the stories in the bible as
> parable and metaphor.
> 
> Therefore, for those people, the Bible doesn't lie.
> 
> And if it turns out that portions of the New Testament are literal truth
> (portions, because it can't *all* be true -- it contradicts itself), then
> the Bible doesn't lie.

That would mean that portions of it weren't lies, not all of it.
> 
> The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the people who insist that
> it is literal truth, and those fundamentalists are obviously misled anyway,
> because the Bible can't *possibly* all be literal truth, as evidenced by the
> contradictions I mentioned above.
> 
> If you take issue with fundamentalists, I'm right there with you 100%.  If
> you take issue with all Christians because the Bible is not 100% literal
> truth, then you are making a straw man arguement.

Some Anglican clergy in England (or so I have heard) have the position that
the Bible is parable and metaphor, that some of the historical events *may*
have taken place (although that doesn't really matter), but that none of the
miracles actually happened, that there was no actual resurrection, that
Jesus (if he was a historical figure) was not literally the son of God
(since God doesn't literally exist) and so on.

Under this interpretation the Bible could be interpreted as not making any
counterfactual claims and therefore possibly not lying.

But I don't think that is the interpretation of all Christians who are not
fundamentalists.

-- 
William T Goodall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/


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Re: misspelling cthulhu is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Reggie Bautista]

I wrote:


> (...) the last shirt I looked at said "Cthulhu
> for President: why settle for a lesser evil?"


and somehow evil Hotmail changed that to:


> (...) the last shirt I looked at said "Cthulu
> for President: why settle for a lesser evil?"


and so Alberto replied:

Cthulhu.

Ph'unglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!


I promise, I really did spell it correctly the first time I typed it.  I 
dunno what happened.  It must be Nyarlathotep's fault...  :-)

Reggie Bautista
How many other ways can I temp the Elders today? Maru


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Re: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!

[William T Goodall]

on 27/11/02 6:31 pm, Reggie Bautista at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>>>  http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html
>>> 
>>> *blink*
>>> 
>>> *twitch*
>>> 
>>> Make it stop
>>> 
>>> Adam C. Lipscomb
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Guatam wrote:
>> I just clicked on this and it told me that the page
>> could not be found.  What's up?
> 
> A problem with your internet service provider?  I just clicked on the link
> and it opened a new browser window and took me right there.

You must have some caching going on, because it is gone.

-- 
William T Goodall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/


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Re: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!

[William T Goodall]

on 27/11/02 6:20 pm, Gautam Mukunda at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>>  http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html
>> 
>> *blink*
>> 
>> *twitch*
>> 
>> Make it stop
>> 
>> Adam C. Lipscomb
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> I just clicked on this and it told me that the page
> could not be found.  What's up?
> 
> Gautam

He probably exceeded his bandwidth quota and had to remove it. Just for you
I have recreated it at

http://homepage.mac.com/williamgoodall/iMovieTheater8.html

And will take it down tomorrow.

-- 
William T Goodall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/


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RE: Religion, the good side

[Nick Arnett]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Erik Reuter
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:41 AM

...

> More accurately, it flies in the face of your perception of the success
> you've had. The successes are one thing, that is an objective fact (more
> or less). But the mechanism of those successes, that is much harder to
> pin down. If your brain is as peculiar as you suggest, I'm not sure I
> trust the accuracy of those perceptions.
>
> > I don't follow.  I see no conflict between the two parts.
>
> If it is not random, then it can be influenced.

I haven't argued that it can't be influenced.  I argued that it cannot be
forced.  That's like the difference between criticism and censorship.

> So, we agree that working longer ("head in an interesting direction
> related to what you are working on") will be likely to create more
> results. I guess we have nothing to argue about!

Only if one equates "working longer" with "head in an interesting
direction."

Nick

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brin-l.com is down

[Jon Gabriel]

Unsure if this has already been mentioned (or if anyone gives a rat's 
behind), but brin-l.com is down.  It's been down for at least 12 hours -- 
possibly longer.  I had been working on updating my website through 
Frontpage last night and the link kept getting a 'down' tag.

Jon




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Re: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!

[Reggie Bautista]

>  http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html
>
> *blink*
>
> *twitch*
>
> Make it stop
>
> Adam C. Lipscomb
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Guatam wrote:

I just clicked on this and it told me that the page
could not be found.  What's up?


A problem with your internet service provider?  I just clicked on the link 
and it opened a new browser window and took me right there.

And then I saw it starting again and panicked, and managed to close not only 
that window, but also the one below it, and had to sign back on to Hotmail 
to send this reply to you :-)

Reggie Bautista


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Re: Lies Aren't Evil

[Reggie Bautista]

I wrote:

>
> The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the
> people who insist that it is literal truth,


Alberto replied:

This is an empty set. Books such as _Job_ are
considered as fiction by everyone.


Perhaps this is true in Brazil, but I know of at least one person who sits 
two rows over from me who believes that every single word in the Bible is 
the literal truth.  And she's not alone.  I think it's really sad, but it's 
true.  I spent a few years part-time at a community college before 
transferring to UMKC (University of Missouri at Kansas City), and there were 
whole *droves* of people who believed in the literal truth.  And they kept 
trying to recruit me.

Reggie Bautista
Resistance is *not* futile


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Re: [LINK] AAAIIIIEEEE!!!!! The horror! The horror!

[Gautam Mukunda]

>  http://homepage.mac.com/msparby/iMovieTheater5.html
> 
> *blink*
> 
> *twitch*
> 
> Make it stop
> 
> Adam C. Lipscomb
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

I just clicked on this and it told me that the page
could not be found.  What's up?

Gautam

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Re: Religion, the good side

[Erik Reuter]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 12:02:08PM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote:

> But if by "work longer hours" you mean think about the problems while
> working on other things to let the subconscious work on the problem,
> then I think we're all in agreement.

No, I don't mean working on other things, unless those other things are
occupying only a small part of your thinking (for example, thinking
about the problem while driving down a long empty road would qualify as
working, but not reading a book about something unrelated).


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Lies Aren't Evil

[Alberto Monteiro]

Reggie Bautista wrote: 
>  
> The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the 
> people who insist that it is literal truth,  
> 
This is an empty set. Books such as _Job_ are 
considered as fiction by everyone. 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
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Re: Religion, the good side

[Reggie Bautista]

Erik wrote:

Anyway, more breakthroughs will be made by those with exceptional minds
WHO WORK LONGER HOURS than those with equally exceptional minds who work
shorter hours.


I think the only real issue here is the definition of work.  If by "work 
longer hours" you mean "work longer hours tied to a desk," then I (and 
probably Dan and Nick) will have to continue to disagree with you.  But if 
by "work longer hours" you mean think about the problems while working on 
other things to let the subconscious work on the problem, then I think we're 
all in agreement.

Reggie Bautista


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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Reggie Bautista]

William T Goodall wrote:

>> No, all lies are still evil.


I replied:

> Fiction is a form of creative lying (fictional stories are, by 
definition,
> not true, and anything not true must be a lie, right?).  So is fiction 
evil?

William responded:

Lie - a false statement made with the intention of deceiving: anything
misleading or of the nature of imposture.

Fiction doesn't pretend to be true, and therefore isn't a lie.


Not all Christians are fundamentalists who insist on the literal truth of 
the Bible.  Many Christians interpret most of the stories in the bible as 
parable and metaphor.

Therefore, for those people, the Bible doesn't lie.

And if it turns out that portions of the New Testament are literal truth 
(portions, because it can't *all* be true -- it contradicts itself), then 
the Bible doesn't lie.

The only people for whom the Bible is a lie are the people who insist that 
it is literal truth, and those fundamentalists are obviously misled anyway, 
because the Bible can't *possibly* all be literal truth, as evidenced by the 
contradictions I mentioned above.

If you take issue with fundamentalists, I'm right there with you 100%.  If 
you take issue with all Christians because the Bible is not 100% literal 
truth, then you are making a straw man arguement.

Reggie Bautista


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Re: Religion, the good side

[Erik Reuter]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 08:44:07AM -0600, Dan Minette wrote:

> What data source do you have that contradicts the data provided by
> people who have actually been highly creative?

Why are your anecdotal sources so much more credible than mine? I guess
having a magic god-given brain makes your sources more credible? Well,
maybe god just gave me a magic brain, and my brain has stronger magic
than yours, did you think of that, didya, punk? :-)

> But, I know what has worked successfully over the years.  I've been
> able to solve in 15 minutes what plodders haven't been able to do
> working 12 hour days for many days.

Oh, that magic god given brain again. Of course, the perceptions of a
mundane, comprehensible, objective brain are more credible than a magic
brain. Your past comments on the working of the brain and intelligence
have demonstrated a pattern that I think lacks scientific objectivity
and therefore loses some credibility with me. If you believe something
is true, especially if it relates to mental processes, it is quite
likely you will find a way to make it true. Self-fulfilling prophecy.

> I look around and note the working habits of others who have
> significant creative breakthroughs.  I look at the habits of those who
> don't.  Why should one assume that the people who are creative would
> be even more creative if they work like those who aren't?

What did I say that made you think that? The creative people can think
standing on their head for all I care, but the longer they stand on
their head and think, the more work they are likely to accomplish (up to
a point, of course, but as I said, I know and have known many creative
people who get more results up to 10 to 14 hours)

> Part of the problem with trying to be a creative plodder is that
> creativity is an edge experience.  For me, at least, its foundation is
> coming up with a new way to ask the question.  Long hard work tends to
> get me in a groove/rut of looking at it the same way.

Looks like a mental block to me, maybe the magic god-given brain isn't
all its cracked up to be. There are lots of ways to work and look at
things from a different angle other than playing golf. Although if you
are thinking about the problem most of the time you are playing golf,
then I would call that working longer hours.

> The proof is in the pudding.  Let me give one final example.  After
> months of effort, a theorist came up with a solution to a special case
> of a general problem.  He discussed it with Feynman.  Feynman proved
> to be interested and asked him questions.  The guy was thrilled that
> Feynman took an interest in his work.  The next day, Feynman had the
> general solution.

Why did you get the idea that I was saying no one is better at problem
solving than anyone else? If you had a story where Feynman worked 6 hour
days and solved a problem more quickly than when he worked 12 hours
days, then you would have something relevant.

> Most breakthroughs are made by those with a God
> given spark, not by the hardest workers.

I assume you mean by that, "those with an exceptional mind". Or do you
mean to say that only god can create an exceptional mind?

Anyway, more breakthroughs will be made by those with exceptional minds
WHO WORK LONGER HOURS than those with equally exceptional minds who work
shorter hours.



-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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misspelling cthulhu is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Alberto Monteiro]

Reggie Bautista wrote: 
> 
> (...) the last shirt I looked at said "Cthulu  
> for President: why settle for a lesser evil?" 
> 
Cthulhu. 
 
Ph'unglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn! 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
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Re: Religion, the good side

[Erik Reuter]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 09:08:32AM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:
> What makes you think so?

Experience, observation, logic.

> It flies in the face of the success I've had.  Do you have real-world
> experience in this area?

More accurately, it flies in the face of your perception of the success
you've had. The successes are one thing, that is an objective fact (more
or less). But the mechanism of those successes, that is much harder to
pin down. If your brain is as peculiar as you suggest, I'm not sure I
trust the accuracy of those perceptions.

> I don't follow.  I see no conflict between the two parts.

If it is not random, then it can be influenced.

> > Head in an interesting direction related to what you are working on,
> > and you are likely to find useful things that will help you get your
> > work done. You can't absolutely force ideas, but you can make them more
> > likely.
> 
> Uh, that's what I said.

So, we agree that working longer ("head in an interesting direction
related to what you are working on") will be likely to create more
results. I guess we have nothing to argue about!


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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Re: Lies Aren't Evil

[Alberto Monteiro]

Reggie Bautista wrote: 
>  
> Fiction is a form of creative lying (fictional stories 
> are, by definition, not true, and anything not true 
> must be a lie, right?).  So is fiction evil? 
> 
Fictional stories are not lies, because lies can only 
exist when there the purpose is deception. 
 
Sometimes even telling the absolute truth _is_ a 
lie, when it's told in such a way that the victim 
will not believe it. 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
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Re: Religion, the good side

[Erik Reuter]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 10:15:50AM -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote:

> Having worked warehousing and manufacturing jobs, secretarial jobs,   
> and creative jobs, I can confidently tell you that 6 hours of 
> "creative work" is *much* more taxing that 10 or 12 hours of "picking 
> up heavy things and putting them down again"  

Almost every company I've been to, the secretaries and manual laborers
go home at 5pm (or whenever the shift ends). If you are there late, it
is almost solely the people with the creative or somewhat creative jobs
who are still working.



-- 
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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[William T Goodall]

on 27/11/02 4:16 pm, Reggie Bautista at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> William T Goodall wrote:
>> No, all lies are still evil.
> 
> Fiction is a form of creative lying (fictional stories are, by definition,
> not true, and anything not true must be a lie, right?).  So is fiction evil?

Lie - a false statement made with the intention of deceiving: anything
misleading or of the nature of imposture.

Fiction doesn't pretend to be true, and therefore isn't a lie.

-- 
William T Goodall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/


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RE: Religion, the good side

[Nick Arnett]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Erik Reuter

...

> >  Pick up any book on creativity and you'll find that creative people
> > are interested in everything.  (We're into an area of my expertise
> > here; IIRC, that very sentence appears on my web site.)  Metaphor is
> > powerful, so is letting a problem linger in the back of one's head.
> > Big problems are rarely solved by tackling them head-on; many are
> > serendipitous.
>
> That is mostly sensationalism and wishful thinking. It doesn't make a
> good story to say that you were working on the problem for hours and you
> solved it. It makes a great story to say you were in the bathtub and
> suddenly had to jump out and run naked to your desk to write down the
> idea that just occurred to you. Selective memory and drama.

What makes you think so?  It flies in the face of the success I've had.  Do
you have real-world experience in this area?  My successes have been at
Intel, IBM, Microsoft, Apple, etc.  Not to mention my own companies.

> > Serendipity is not something you can force to happen, but it's not
> > random, either.
>
> The first part is a tautology or a useless definition, so I'll ignore
> it, and the second part conflicts with the first.

I don't follow.  I see no conflict between the two parts.

> >  Head in an interesting direction and you're likely to find things you
> > weren't even looking for.
>
> Head in an interesting direction related to what you are working on,
> and you are likely to find useful things that will help you get your
> work done. You can't absolutely force ideas, but you can make them more
> likely.

Uh, that's what I said.

Nick

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Re: Lies Aren't Evil

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/27/2002 7:51:28 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> > When there are only two choices, then the lesser
>  > of the two evils is _not_ evil.
>  
>  Unless it is.

That depends upon what your defin...

**BANG**

Ow.

I'll shut up now.

William Taylor
-
The classical Chinese language had no word for "is".
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Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

[Medievalbk]

In a message dated 11/27/2002 7:39:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> > Governments do not generate income.
>  
>  Actually, they do. It is called "taxes". (My apology for using a dirty
>  word.)
>  

Agreed. But the taxes have to come from people who have incomes. Governments 
do not generate people's incomes. At some point, the taxes become high enough 
that more lower income people give up and become sucklers instead of sows. 
Governments do not create the income that is taxible. People scream "It's our 
money!" and the Government screams "Only what we let you keep."

>  
>  > They can't pull money for entitlements out of thin air.
>  
>  Correct -- that is why we pay taxes.
>  

And if the tax base decreases but expenditures remain constant?

>  
>  > I think the disaster point is when it'll take three workers to pay for
>  > one retired person.
>  
>  That is not so much a disaster but a case of real lousy long-term planning.

Long term planning unfortunately means almost nothing but looking towrds 
one's re-election.

If Social Security today was the same as when it was started, it would work.

I think only one worker in 20 was expected to live long enough to get 
benifits, and it was about 15 workers to support one retired person. [Very 
rough estimate. I bet John has or can get the exact figures instantly.] There 
were no heart transplants, lung transplant, kidney transplants etc.

But naturally, no elected politician is going to decrease benifits.

William Taylor
-
Give it to the people that are closing air bases.
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RE: Hello again

[Marvin Long, Jr.]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Horn, John wrote:

> > From: Marvin Long, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > I'm tiptoeing 
> > back, thinking to myself, "No more L3s.  No more L3s.  No 
> > more L3s")
> 
> With all the discussions about logic and religion, I think this is going to
> be *very* hard for you to do!  

Yeah, well...sometimes you have to agree to disagree.  Unless somebody
comes up with a fresh angle on the issues, I think I'm content to let my
old verbage stand.  I'll do my best to confine myself to potshots 
and one-liners for the nonce.  :)

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, & Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA)

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Scouted: Face Off may become a reality

[Jon Gabriel]

Face transplants 'on the horizon'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/health/2516181.stm

A leading plastic surgeon is calling for a debate about the ethics of
face transplants - which he predicts will be possible within months

This would be really helpful for people with Crouzon Syndrome. IIRC, An 
American surgeon announced this in 1998-9, but I don't recall hearing 
anything about it afterwards.

Jon


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Fwd: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradi...

[Robert D. Zimmerman]

Return-Path:  
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:54:57 EST 
Subject: Fwd: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it must be eradi... 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

In a message dated 11/26/2002 12:39:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

On the other hand, the right of Congress to declare war has been
eviscerated, the limitations on the powers of Congress in article II have
been eviscerated, the 9th and 10th amendments are virtually  meaningless,
the US government now has trillions of dollars of debt, the US government
is the country's single largest operator of a pyramid-Ponzi scheme, and a
group of unelected justices overturned the electorates desire to  protect
unborn human life.


Let me get this straight. You think that a majority of the americans favor outlawing abortion? You think that issues such as this should be decided by a majority? When you speak of justices are you referring to the court that went against all of its philosophical beliefs to intervene in a state courts ruling about a state law? But of course it is likely that you will get what you want. The current court seems to have no problem with ignoring or rewriting the constitution to suit its conservative agenda.




In many respects, it could be argued that we could have done much  better
than the US Constitution.



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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:24:23 -0500 
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From: "John D. Giorgis"  
Subject: Verifying the US Constitution Re: religion is evil, why it 
must be eradicated 
In-Reply-To:  
References:  






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At 07:39 PM 11/24/2002 -0600 Dan Minette wrote: 
>> The US Constitution has been subject to hundreds of years of 
>> verification. It seems to work fairly well. 

On the other hand, the right of Congress to declare war has been 
eviscerated, the limitations on the powers of Congress in article II have 
been eviscerated, the 9th and 10th amendments are virtually meaningless, 
the US government now has trillions of dollars of debt, the US government 
is the country's single largest operator of a pyramid-Ponzi scheme, and a 
group of unelected justices overturned the electorates desire to protect 
unborn human life. 

In many respects, it could be argued that we could have done much better 
than the US Constitution. 

JDG 

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People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern 
them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; 
own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of 
freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the 
duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common 
calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. 
-US National Security Policy, 2002 
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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Reggie Bautista]

William T Goodall wrote:

No, all lies are still evil.


Fiction is a form of creative lying (fictional stories are, by definition, 
not true, and anything not true must be a lie, right?).  So is fiction evil?

Reggie Bautista


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Re: Religion, the good side

[Reggie Bautista]

Erik wrote:

Creative work can have people with more endurance
than, for example, non-physical drudge work or physical labor. Many more
people find the creative work enjoyable and so can work at it longer
without tiring. That is one reason why you see more people voluntarily
working overtime for creative jobs and not for jobs like secretary or
construction worker.


Having worked warehousing and manufacturing jobs, secretarial jobs, and 
creative jobs, I can confidently tell you that 6 hours of "creative work" is 
*much* more taxing that 10 or 12 hours of "picking up heavy things and 
putting them down again" (our unofficial job description for a warehousing 
job I had at Proctor and Gamble), or any of the secretarial work I did.  
YMMV, of course.  However, I had some great creative moments, conceived of 
some great music, while doing that warehousing job, mostly because I wasn't 
consciously thinking about music at the time.  (I was working at P&G as a 
summer job during college, and during that same summer I did a sound design 
with original music for a community theater production of _The Bad Seed_.)

Reggie Bautista


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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Reggie Bautista]

William T Goodall wrote:

Or it could be the lesser of two evils.


Strange syncronicity:  Within the past day, Julia posted a link to a site 
that sells t-shirts, sweatshirts, stickers, etc.  I was looking at that site 
just before reading your email, and the last shirt I looked at said "Cthulu 
for President: why settle for a lesser evil?"

:-)

Reggie Bautista


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Re: Religion, the good side

[Reggie Bautista]

Dan wrote:

The creative muse is not badgered.  You don't simply think day and night.
You look at the problem, know that it is solveable, but not now, and go
away.  As one of the guys told me when he was fussed at for surfing the net
at work, "how else can I solve a problem...if I just stare at it, I'll
never figure it out."


[much snipped]

This sounds a lot like the creative process as applied to music, as well.  
The really good stuff, the truly insightful insights, come from the 
subconscious mind, not the conscious.  Sometimes, much of the time even, you 
have to get your conscious mind out of the way in order to solve a problem 
or create something truly new.

Reggie Bautista


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Re: Posted message.

[Reggie Bautista]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Post.


-er.

Poster.

Reggie "The Electric Company" Bautista


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Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Reggie Bautista]

In a message dated 11/26/2002 8:53:55 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> If religion is a lie, what is "evil?"


William Taylor responded:

Evil is any system of philosophy written by George Lucas. ;-)

William Taylor
-
Merely throwing two different threads into a blender.


Or L. Ron Hubbard

Reggie Bautista
Merely adding in a third thread...


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RE: religion is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Horn, John]

> From: K. Feete [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> Yes, but, as Searle and Merleau-Ponty are both so fond of 

Merleau-Ponty?  Isn't that that English comedy team that did all those TV
shows and movies???

 - jmh
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RE: Hello again

[Horn, John]

> From: Marvin Long, Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> I'm tiptoeing 
> back, thinking to myself, "No more L3s.  No more L3s.  No 
> more L3s")

With all the discussions about logic and religion, I think this is going to
be *very* hard for you to do!  

 - jmh
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Re: Lies Aren't Evil

[William T Goodall]

on 27/11/02 2:04 pm, Alberto Monteiro at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> William T Goodall wrote:
>> 
>> Or it could be the lesser of two evils.
>>  
> When there are only two choices, then the lesser
> of the two evils is _not_ evil.

Unless it is.

-- 
William T Goodall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/


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Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[Marvin Long, Jr.]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, William T Goodall wrote:

> on 27/11/02 3:53 am, Marvin Long, Jr. at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > 
> > If religion is a lie, what is "evil?"
> > 
> 
> Evil is whatever I'm pointing at when I say 'that is evil' :)

Excellent!  Glad we've cleared that up.  

Marvin Long
Austin, Texas
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, & Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA)

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Re: Religion, the good side

[Dan Minette]

- Original Message -
From: "Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:00 AM
Subject: Re: Religion, the good side



> That is mostly sensationalism and wishful thinking. It doesn't make a
> good story to say that you were working on the problem for hours and you
> solved it. It makes a great story to say you were in the bathtub and
> suddenly had to jump out and run naked to your desk to write down the
> idea that just occurred to you. Selective memory and drama.

What data source do you have that contradicts the data provided by people
who have actually been highly creative?  Yes, my data are limited.  My
personal experience is just one person.  But, I know what has worked
successfully over the years.  I've been able to solve in 15 minutes what
plodders haven't been able to do working 12 hour days for many days.

I look around and note the working habits of others who have significant
creative breakthroughs.  I look at the habits of those who don't.  Why
should one assume that the people who are creative would be even more
creative if they work like those who aren't?

Part of the problem with trying to be a creative plodder is that creativity
is an edge experience.  For me, at least, its foundation is coming up with
a new way to ask the question.  Long hard work tends to get me in a
groove/rut of looking at it the same way.

The proof is in the pudding.  Let me give one final example.  After months
of effort, a theorist came up with a solution to a special case of a
general problem.  He discussed it with Feynman.  Feynman proved to be
interested and asked him questions.  The guy was thrilled that Feynman took
an interest in his work.  The next day, Feynman had the general solution.

Edison copied a lot more than did. Fundamentally, he was wrong, but told a
darned good story.  Further, the chances of accomplishing great new
technologies through simple trial and error have tremendously diminished
over the past century.  Most breakthroughs are made by those with a God
given spark, not by the hardest workers.

Dan M.


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RE: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

[J . v . Baardwijk]

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 14:51
> Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Onderwerp: Re: Social Security is Evil and Must Be Eradicated

> > Why is it a "disaster" if a government decides to financially help
> > those members of the population who (for some reason) are unable to
> > generate income themselves?
> 
> Governments do not generate income.

Actually, they do. It is called "taxes". (My apology for using a dirty
word.)


> They can't pull money for entitlements out of thin air.

Correct -- that is why we pay taxes.


> I think the disaster point is when it'll take three workers to pay for
> one retired person.

That is not so much a disaster but a case of real lousy long-term planning.


Jeroen
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Re: Lies Aren't Evil Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[William T Goodall]

on 27/11/02 1:48 pm, Richard Baker at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Jeroen said:
> 
>> QED lies are evil.
> 
> Not at all. The statement "lies are evil" might more accurately be
> stated "all lies are evil". John G gave a counterexample,

Which was flawed.

> so the
> statement "all lies are evil" is not true. You've only given a
> counterexample to the statement "no lies are evil". We're left,
> therefore, with "some but not all lies are evil".

No, all lies are still evil.

-- 
William T Goodall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/


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income tax is evil, why it must be eradicated

[Alberto Monteiro]

So far, the only thing the new commie gov.br has 
done was increasing the t*xes. But a friend of mine 
told me that they have remodelled the great satan's 
website to explain for _children_ what they do. 
 
I imagine the next step will be giving bonus to 
kids who denounce their parents :-/ 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
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RE: Religion, the good side

[Ronn! Blankenship]

At 02:07 PM 11/27/02 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: Ronn!Blankenship
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Verzonden: woensdag 27 november 2002 13:17
> Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Onderwerp: Re: Religion, the good side

> GSV Those Who Can, Do:  Those Who Can't Do, End Up In Management

ROTFL!

There is truth in many things -- and this is definitely one of them.



It's based on my observations from jobs I've held in the computer field.


Like the day when, after about two years working for that company, I 
arrived at the office one morning to discover that the combination to the 
lock on the computer room had been changed and that my login would no 
longer work.  So I called someone to find out what was going on, and that 
person told me to ask my supervisor, who told me (by then, this was maybe 
9:30 in the morning), "See me after lunch."  He finally broke down a little 
later and told me, "Today is your last day."  Though no one ever came out 
and said so, I could only guess that they thought I knew enough about the 
system to do something nasty if they had given me any warning, as no one 
else who had been let go previously had been treated that way.  I decided 
to take it as a compliment to my programming skills rather than a 
suggestion that I might actually consider sabotage . . .

To make it even funnier, within a week I got a call from them asking me if 
I would come back as a temporary contractor and finish the project I was 
working on when they abruptly canned me:  I suppose no one else there could 
figure it out.  (Yes, I did.  And I never considered doing any funny stuff 
. . .)

(I keep wondering if I should send the account of my experience to Scott 
Adams, but I don't know how he could fit it into a single strip, much less 
whether anyone would believe it if it came out as a comic:  truth can 
definitely be stranger than fiction . . . )

A few years later, I was asked to teach a class on the basics of operating 
system design at one of those technical colleges.  One day, one of my 
students asked me why I preferred _teaching_ programmers to actually 
working as a programmer . . .


If You've Read This Far The Answer Should Be Obvious Maru



--Ronn! :)

I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon.
I never dreamed that I would see the last.
--Dr. Jerry Pournelle


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Re: New thread Re: Religion is evil (proof)

[William T Goodall]

on 27/11/02 2:39 am, Julia Thompson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> William T Goodall wrote:
>> [2] If you want to argue that religion is not a lie start a thread.
> 
> A lot of religion has myth.  Myth is stories that, while not literally
> true, may contain truths.  The best ones contain truths about human
> nature.  Some warn against particular human tendencies, others celebrate
> certain human tendencies.
> 
> So I'd argue that at least one part of religion is lies containing
> truths.

So the rest of it is lies containing just lies?

-- 
William T Goodall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk/


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Re: Lies Aren't Evil

[Alberto Monteiro]

William T Goodall wrote: 
> 
> Or it could be the lesser of two evils. 
>  
When there are only two choices, then the lesser 
of the two evils is _not_ evil. 
 
Alberto Monteiro 
 
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Re: Religion, the good side

[Erik Reuter]

On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 05:42:55AM -0800, Nick Arnett wrote:

> Seems to me that you've just shot down your proposition, since those
> words limit it to selected cases.

No, it means my proposition is valid. The longer people can work without
getting tired, the more they will get done. I've rarely met people who
can't work more than 6 hours without getting tired.

>  Now we can agree, although I'd say it thus: for some people, dealing
> with some kinds of work, more hours yields more output.  Generally
> speaking, I'll add, those are the less creative kinds of work.

No, we don't agree. Creative work can have people with more endurance
than, for example, non-physical drudge work or physical labor. Many more
people find the creative work enjoyable and so can work at it longer
without tiring. That is one reason why you see more people voluntarily
working overtime for creative jobs and not for jobs like secretary or
construction worker.

>
> > I think the real trick is to stimulate as much of your mind as
> > possible in as many ways related to the problem as possible.
>
> There's the rub -- you never know what might be related.

But you can make some really good guesses, good enough to greatly
increase your efficiency.

>  Pick up any book on creativity and you'll find that creative people
> are interested in everything.  (We're into an area of my expertise
> here; IIRC, that very sentence appears on my web site.)  Metaphor is
> powerful, so is letting a problem linger in the back of one's head.
> Big problems are rarely solved by tackling them head-on; many are
> serendipitous.

That is mostly sensationalism and wishful thinking. It doesn't make a
good story to say that you were working on the problem for hours and you
solved it. It makes a great story to say you were in the bathtub and
suddenly had to jump out and run naked to your desk to write down the
idea that just occurred to you. Selective memory and drama.

> Serendipity is not something you can force to happen, but it's not
> random, either.

The first part is a tautology or a useless definition, so I'll ignore
it, and the second part conflicts with the first.

>  Head in an interesting direction and you're likely to find things you
> weren't even looking for.

Head in an interesting direction related to what you are working on,
and you are likely to find useful things that will help you get your
work done. You can't absolutely force ideas, but you can make them more
likely.

> Not every task should be approached this way; sometimes focus and
> follow-through are far more important than creativity.  Learning how
> to switch deliberately from one mode to the other is an extremely
> valuable skill.

Which contradicts your statement about not being able to influence ideas
to happen. (I use influence instead of force since I assume that is what
you meant; neither of us would argue that you can absolutely force an
idea to come at a given time)


-- 
"Erik Reuter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.erikreuter.net/
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