Re: [DNG] ssh_exchange_identification: read: Connection reset by peer

[marc]

> $telnet odroid.lan
> Trying 192.168.1.2...
> Connected to odroid.lan.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> Connection closed by foreign host.
> 
> Any ideas what could be causing this?

It could be that your process table is full - Run ps fax and
understand what each process does. 

Alternatively /dev/pts isn't mounted, or (less likely) you 
are running something like fail2ban ?

regards

marc

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[DNG] ssh_exchange_identification: read: Connection reset by peer

[J. Fahrner]

Hi all,
I have a headless Odroid C2 running "Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii) 
(3.8.13.30)", all packages are up to date.

Often, when I try to connect through ssh I get the following error:

ssh_exchange_identification: read: Connection reset by peer

The only way to get access to it is removing power and power on again.

I installed telnetd to have an alternate way to access it when that 
happens, but in that case also telnet is not working. Telnet connection 
gets immediately close without error message.


$telnet odroid.lan
Trying 192.168.1.2...
Connected to odroid.lan.
Escape character is '^]'.
Connection closed by foreign host.

Any ideas what could be causing this?
After reboot both, ssh and telnet, are working normally.

Jochen
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Re: [DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.

[Rick Moen]

Quoting goli...@dyne.org (goli...@dyne.org):

> Communication often gets lost in 'translation' especially across
> cultures but sometimes even within the same culture.  Rick's posts
> often contain subtle language that could challenge even native
> speakers.

I thank you very much -- and have to try to remember, when addressing a
multilingual audience, to curb my desire to be clever.  (Author John
Scalzi's well-known saying should serve as a warning to me:  'The
failure mode of clever is "asshole."'
https://whatever.scalzi.com/2010/06/16/the-failure-state-of-clever/ )


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[DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

[Edward Bartolo]

"Propoganda"? Why not use the more appropriate word, "marketing"? This
kind of mail threads should be marked as SPAM or TRASH. Devuan needs
to prove itself to be a viable alternative that works, and that lets
computer admins/users configure their systems as they need, without
the requirement of unnecessarily hard workarounds.
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Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware

[spiralofhope]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:46:17 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751

Thanks for sharing.  Six more pages were added while I was reading the
thread.. people really care.

My roots are from Slackware, and I've always been both encouraged
and worried about its benevolent dictator model.  I hope to join those
others in contributing.
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Re: [DNG] the azeri project is underway. education for programming children with devuan

[spiralofhope]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 21:15:39 +0200
Basati  wrote:

> I've already named it: azeri (in Basque it means fox, children will
> need the skills of a fox for this)

Children will GET the skills of a fox with this.  :)
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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

[spiralofhope]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:49:45 +0900
Olaf Meeuwissen  wrote:

> KatolaZ writes:
> 
> > The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd
> > ...
> 
> +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-)

libsystemc   =p
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Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2018 26 Jul 18:14 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> Bruce,
> 
> It sounds like you have personal contact with him. Do you have for sure
> knowledge as to whether the https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi is Patrick's
> and funds I put in it would actually go to Patrick?

I'm reasonably certain that it is Patrick's PayPal as he posted the link
in the Linux Questions thread using his LQ account.  When I made a
donation it had his picture on the page.  At this time I am confident
that he received the money I sent.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Web: http://www.n0nb.us  GPG key: D55A8819  GitHub: N0NB


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Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware

[Don Wright]

Not a Bruce, but... Source reference for that address is on page 11 on the
LinuxQuestions.org thread quoted by Jaromil below. Here's a direct link.
Decide for yourself, or wait for http://www.slackware.com/ to post.

https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/page11.html#post5883695


Steve Litt wrote:
>
>Bruce,
>
>It sounds like you have personal contact with him. Do you have for sure
>knowledge as to whether the https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi is Patrick's
>and funds I put in it would actually go to Patrick?



>> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Jaromil  wrote:
>> 
>> > https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751

-- 

   This signature intentionally left blank.


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Re: [DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.

[golinux]

On 2018-07-26 17:04, Harald Arnesen wrote:

Rick Moen [2018-07-26 19:38]:


Quoting Basati (bas...@basatu.org):


I think there should be a little more respect for Europe's greatest
cultural treasure.


I hope you understand that I was speaking in _exactly_ that spirit.  
(In
case it wasn't clear, the person of whom I was saying 'Someone is a 
bit

provincial' was very much _not_ you, but rather the person who thought
the term 'Azeri' could not legitimately exist in two languages at the
same time.

If my intent of posting a friendly greeting including some warm bits 
of

welcome in the Basque language was somehow unclear, I am sorry that
happened, but that was the very opposite of my intention.


I, at least, had no difficulty in understanding what you meant. I think
it was a very respectful response on your part.



Communication often gets lost in 'translation' especially across 
cultures but sometimes even within the same culture.  Rick's posts often 
contain subtle language that could challenge even native speakers.


golinux
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Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware

[Steve Litt]

Bruce,

It sounds like you have personal contact with him. Do you have for sure
knowledge as to whether the https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi is Patrick's
and funds I put in it would actually go to Patrick?

Thanks,

SteveT


On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:11:32 -0700
Bruce Perens  wrote:

> I offered to introduce him to some lawyers. I've certainly made good
> use of them over the past year. Were it not for good lawyers willing
> to work cheap or free, I'd be in some hot water right now.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bruce
> 
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Jaromil  wrote:
> 
> >
> > dear fellow dng'ers
> >
> > let me bring your attention to this recent and sad message by
> > Patrick Volkerding, founder and maker of Slackware, a distribution
> > we all owe much in many different ways: knowledge, spirit, honesty
> > and minimalism
> > https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/
> > donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
> >
> > it is a sad story and I encourage everyone to donate to Slackware.
> > He has now published this account of his
> > https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
> >
> > the last thing we need is a systemd-free distro to disappear and
> > especially in this case, being Slackware. At Dyne.org we will also
> > consider a donation. Thanks to VUAs for bringing this to my
> > attention.
> >
> > in solidarity,
> >
> > ciao
> >
> > ___
> > Dng mailing list
> > Dng@lists.dyne.org
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


-- 
Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Freitag, 27. Juli 2018 schrieb Dr. Nikolaus Klepp:
> Sorry, this may break the thread but I already deleted the original message.
> 
> To make things short: this a minimal "libnosystemd" for sshd on ascii. It 
> basicly does nothing at all. To be more specific, it does exactly the same 
> that libsystemd0 does, which is nothing. 
> 
> Unpack where you like, compile and copy the resulting library to 
> /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0.17.0 (it might be a good idea to backup 
> the original). "service ssh stop; service ssh start" and oh magic sshd is up 
> and running without libsystemd0 - that is all it does. Good enough for me as 
> a proof of concept :-)
> 
> Nik
> 
> 

oops, wrong filename. should be "libnosystemd.tar.xz" instead of 
"libnosystemd.tar.gz".

-- 
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA, CIA ...


libnosystemd.tar.xz
Description: application/txz
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Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

[Harald Arnesen]

Steve Litt [2018-07-26 18:44]:

> On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 18:00:45 +0200
> Basati  wrote:
> 
>> I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American
>> military complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and
>> the military of the United States
> 
> Damn Americans! Every one of them voted for Trump, owns ten
> semiautomatic rifles, owns stock in Red Hat, loves systemd, profits
> and enjoys his country's military complex.
> 
> Let's make a deal, you and I. I won't accuse your people of being
> separatist terrorists if you don't accuse mine of being
> Redhat loving militarists.
> 
> Anyone thinking of dissing a nation on this *technical* list should
> look long and hard at the deficiencies of his/her own country. Let he
> who is without sin cast the first stone.
> 
> Steve Litt
> Orlando, Florida, USA
> Campaigned and voted for Clinton in 2016
> As if that should be anyone's business but mine
> ___
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Well said! Americans are the worst and the best people in the world -
just like anyone else!
-- 
Hilsen Harald

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Sorry, this may break the thread but I already deleted the original message.

To make things short: this a minimal "libnosystemd" for sshd on ascii. It 
basicly does nothing at all. To be more specific, it does exactly the same that 
libsystemd0 does, which is nothing. 

Unpack where you like, compile and copy the resulting library to 
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0.17.0 (it might be a good idea to backup 
the original). "service ssh stop; service ssh start" and oh magic sshd is up 
and running without libsystemd0 - that is all it does. Good enough for me as a 
proof of concept :-)

Nik


-- 
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with 
the NSA, CIA ...


libnosystemd.tar.gz
Description: application/tgz
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Re: [DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.

[Harald Arnesen]

Rick Moen [2018-07-26 19:38]:

> Quoting Basati (bas...@basatu.org):
> 
>> I think there should be a little more respect for Europe's greatest
>> cultural treasure.
> 
> I hope you understand that I was speaking in _exactly_ that spirit.  (In
> case it wasn't clear, the person of whom I was saying 'Someone is a bit
> provincial' was very much _not_ you, but rather the person who thought
> the term 'Azeri' could not legitimately exist in two languages at the
> same time.
> 
> If my intent of posting a friendly greeting including some warm bits of
> welcome in the Basque language was somehow unclear, I am sorry that
> happened, but that was the very opposite of my intention.

I, at least, had no difficulty in understanding what you meant. I think
it was a very respectful response on your part.
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware

[Bruce Perens]

I offered to introduce him to some lawyers. I've certainly made good use of
them over the past year. Were it not for good lawyers willing to work cheap
or free, I'd be in some hot water right now.

Thanks

Bruce

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 1:46 PM, Jaromil  wrote:

>
> dear fellow dng'ers
>
> let me bring your attention to this recent and sad message by Patrick
> Volkerding, founder and maker of Slackware, a distribution we all owe
> much in many different ways: knowledge, spirit, honesty and minimalism
> https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/
> donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751
>
> it is a sad story and I encourage everyone to donate to Slackware.  He
> has now published this account of his https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi
>
> the last thing we need is a systemd-free distro to disappear and
> especially in this case, being Slackware. At Dyne.org we will also
> consider a donation. Thanks to VUAs for bringing this to my attention.
>
> in solidarity,
>
> ciao
>
> ___
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> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>



-- 
Bruce Perens K6BP - CEO, Legal Engineering
Standards committee chair, license review committee member, co-founder,
Open Source Initiative
President, Open Research Institute; Board Member, Fashion Freedom
Initiative.
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[DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware

[Jaromil]

dear fellow dng'ers

let me bring your attention to this recent and sad message by Patrick
Volkerding, founder and maker of Slackware, a distribution we all owe
much in many different ways: knowledge, spirit, honesty and minimalism
https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/donating-to-slackware-4175634729/#post5882751

it is a sad story and I encourage everyone to donate to Slackware.  He
has now published this account of his https://www.paypal.me/volkerdi

the last thing we need is a systemd-free distro to disappear and
especially in this case, being Slackware. At Dyne.org we will also
consider a donation. Thanks to VUAs for bringing this to my attention.

in solidarity,

ciao

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Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:07:42AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> 
> > Anyone thinking of dissing a nation on this *technical* list should
> > look long and hard at the deficiencies of his/her own country. Let he
> > who is without sin cast the first stone.
> 
> Careful.  Those Icelanders have plenty of hard rocks, and some of them
> are really hot, too.  ;->

So does Hawaii.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

[Daniel Abrecht]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 2018-07-26 14:32, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:
> It would help maintaining packages that depend on systemd too. You
> only would have to add some code to use the libnosystemd instead
> of libsystemd0.

If a libnosystemd package provides libsystemd, then there shouldn't be
any additional code or checks necessary in existing programs. But
both, replicating and changing "the libsystemd API" is wrong.
libsystemd is really badly and monolithically designed. It's main
problem is that it doesn't have an API, it has a lot of different APIs
in a single library! This prevents providing packages with dynamic
libraries replacing only one of the APIs. Therefore, ideally, the
systemd developers should split the libsystemd libraries in smaller
ones providing just one API per library. Something like libjournal for
their logging API for example, instead of munching it together with
everything else in libsystemd0. But I doubt that anyone of the systemd
devs ever had that insight, I would even suspect they put everything
in the same library on purpose, allegedly for simplicity, but in
reality for better lockin.

If a libnosystemd package is made, the different systemd APIs should
be defined, then some library names, and finally it should do nothing
more than forwarding the libsystemd function calls to the individual
libraries for the different APIs if said library exists, and otherwise
either do nothing or return an error depending on what would be worse.
This way, it would be possible for different people to provide various
implementations for different systemd APIs, without requiring them to
implement all of them.

Another problem could arise though, how stable are the systemd APIs? I
once wrote https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/sd_journal_shim , it
generates the libjournal library and just provides a subset of
systemds logging functions so it can be used as a shim for those, even
though it can't replace libsystemd. I think it's still in
experimental, even though I'm not sure if it still works, because
thankfully, noone seams to use the systemd journald APIs still, so
noone seams to have had any need for this shim.

Also, I think any such library should make it clear that it's
existents doesn't justify libsystemd usage and discourage developers
from using it.



On 2018-07-26 16:17, Steve Litt wrote:
>  sysvinit and OpenRC typically have init scripts tens or
> hundreds of lines, making init integration of an application seem
> like an arcane art. What are they thinking? IMHO these immense and
> unfathomable init scripts are what opened the door for systemd. 
> 

Those init scripts allow for any kind of scripting language to be
used, and thus also allow for the usage of ones that look like unit
scripts. I made an interpreter that allows yaml for declarative init
scripts that could be used with sysvinit or openrc:
https://github.com/Daniel-Abrecht/unitscript


Daniel Abrecht
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Luciano Mannucci (luci...@vespaperitivo.it):

> Wasn't there something called uselessd that had this very goal some
> time ago? It was promising but died, I don't know why ...

The anonymous author felt his initial versions (through 2014's
uselessd-8) had successfully made his point -- that with minimal effort
systemd's codebase could be made modular, unintrusive, and devoid of
extraneous junk -- and the only reason it wasn't is that the
author/maintaners prefer the horrific mess that systemd is and remains.

Someone named Tarnyko purported to take over maintenance of uselessd in
early 2015, but with no results so far.
(https://github.com/Tarnyko/uselessd)

Meanwhile, the anonymous original author claimed he'd shifted to work
designing/implementing some truly heterodox init system, but again
nothing's yet been seen.

And, in the meantime, there's Luke Shumaker's notsystemd, extremely
similar in spirit to uselessd:
https://lists.parabola.nu/pipermail/dev/2018-July/006882.html
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Re: [DNG] A new article on Devuan (in German)

[Rick Moen]

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):

> Dear D1rs,
> 
> just to point out the nice article written by Michael Plura and
> recently published in the German computer magazine "iX":
> 
>   https://www.heise.de/select/ix/2018/8/1533453649894916

That is a truly outstanding article.  Thank you for the recommendation.
There may be some hope for IT journalism in the 21st Century, after all.

(For those whose Deutsch is as halting as mine, I recommend Google
Translate's results in this case as an aid.  The English translation in
this case works with only a few minor bobbles.)

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Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves
> developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit?

The same way that the more-vocal djbware fans, and Prof. Bernstein
himself, compared qmail _only_ with sendmail, not with Postfix, Exim4,
or Courier-MTA, and compared djbdns _only_ with BIND9, not with
Unbound/NSD, MaraDNS/Deadwood, or PowerDNS.

Comparing what you like only with the cruftiest and oldest alternative
is among the oldest, lamest, and most common rhetorical tricks around.
Overcoming this chicanery was part of the inspiration for many of my
more-popular Web pages, such as:

http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Network_Other/dns-servers.html
http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Mail/mtas.html

I'm sure you've been disappointed by this sort of thing before, Steve.
;->

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Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Anyone thinking of dissing a nation on this *technical* list should
> look long and hard at the deficiencies of his/her own country. Let he
> who is without sin cast the first stone.

Careful.  Those Icelanders have plenty of hard rocks, and some of them
are really hot, too.  ;->

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[DNG] Thunar issue (was: Re: New user of Devuan)

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 07/25/2018 12:27 PM, aitor_czr wrote:



By the way, I have also noticed here that inserting a CD/DVD in this
Devuan installation does not mount the medium automatically, neither it
opens a file manager. How to make it the same way as it does in
Ubuntu/Debian? Tnx.


It seems to me that this is window-manager related, wich one do you 
use(sorry if you already told it)? 


It's related with the file manager's configuration. Go to 
"preferencies->advanced->device mangement" or something similar.




Ok, here it is Thunar 1.6.3 file manager in this Devuan Live Jessie 
Desktop Edition. So I did in this order: Preferences > advanced > click 
on "Enable volume management" > Configure > Storage > removable storage, 
click on "Mount removable media when inserted", also click on "Browse 
removable media when inserted", (even tried with click on "Mount 
removable drives when hot-plugged").


That helped partially: Now after a CD is inserted, a new CD icon appears 
on the xfce desktop. By hovering the mouse over the CD icon, it says "no 
mounted". However, a right-click on the icon offers to mount the medium, 
to open it (in file manager), and so on.


So far - so good. It all goes manually, however not (yet) automatically. 
In Thunar, in its left-side pane, besides the CD title, there was a sign 
to click on to eject the medium. And it ejected it. Good.


Ok, then I rebooted the machine, opened the tray and inserted the CD 
again, and voilà: It mounted the CD automatically and opened Thunar 
after that. Great! BUT, only for the 1st time: After ejecting the 
medium, and re-inserting it again, it behaves the same as before 
rebooting the machine.


After any next reboot, the same as above repeated (1st time all worked 
automatically, the 2nd and later only CD icon on the desktop).


While I can settle for that for now, I wonder whether it is a bug or so 
in Thunar?

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Irrwahn]

Steve Litt wrote on 26.07.2018 18:17:
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:17:21 +0200
> Irrwahn  wrote:
>> What's more, I'd
>> go even further and say I wouldn't mind at all if every daemon
>> package came with support for all init systems in current use
>> (rc-style sysv|openrc, runit, ... , systemd), as that would make
>> switching init systems in an already installed system much, much less
>> of a pain in the rear. Why would I care about a few dozen tiny
>> innocuous unused files on a system that per default install is
>> already cluttered with literally thousands of files I'm never going
>> to use in any way.
> 
> I write my own daemons. There may come a time when I put a free
> software license on one of them and distribute it to the world. If I
> did so, I might (or might not) include the runit run script I use to
> run it. If I were feeling particularly nice that day, I might also
> supply an s6 run script, because s6 run scripts are almost 1 to 1
> translations from runit.
> 
> But there's no way I'd ever take the time to supply facilities for
> startup in sysvinit, OpenRC, systemd or busybox. **Not my job!**

While writing I was thinking more about package maintainers, not 
necessarily the author of a piece of software, though there will
always be some considerable overlap between those groups of people.

>> That'd be what I'd call "init freedom". It's very unlikely to happen
>> in the foreseeable future though, as it would require cooperative
>> effort of hundreds of individuals to include and maintain those init
>> support files in the respective packages.
> 
> Now it sounds like you're talking about something else. It now sounds
> like you're talking about a group of init experts making startup
> facilities for programs using various inits. This is a good idea. A
> systemd unit file, or an s6 or runit run script offer excellent
> documentation for how to configure the application for just about any
> init system.

Again, as above, I was thinking more about distribution package 
maintainers. Though it would obviously be of great help if patches 
were submitted by "init experts", without giving much thought to 
the question what traits would characterize such an "expert". By
"cooperative effort" I meant that the maintainers of _all_ the 
daemon packages present in a distribution would have to provide 
and/or maintain init facilities for all supported init systems, 
as otherwise the whole endeavor would fail.

> 
> sysvinit and OpenRC typically have init scripts tens or hundreds of
> lines, making init integration of an application seem like an arcane
> art. What are they thinking? IMHO these immense and unfathomable init
> scripts are what opened the door for systemd.
> 


I rarely write init scripts from scratch, and when I have to edit
one I count myself lucky if it's just some posix shell script that, 
while admittedly not being exactly elegant, is in most parts 
comprehensible to me without in-depth study of some init system 
manual. Hence, I for one am content with the imperfect well-hung
sysv-rc init. I'd however never try to force that attitude onto 
other people. (Not implying you did, mind you, just generally 
speaking here.)


Each to their own, I'd say. While I agree that a lot of rc-style
scripts look quite messy, at least these are plain shell scripts, 
giving full control over as much minutiae of daemon behavior as 
is conceivably possible, as the author is provided with virtually
unrestricted access to the complete toolbox of standard unix 
utilities to pick from in order to accomplish his task. 

On the other hand, concise configuration files as used by many 
non-rc-style init systems have their own charm, but this gain in 
elegance comes at the expense of handing over a lot of fine 
grained control specifics to (a set of more or less integrated) 
binaries that behave to at least some degree opaque to the casual 
observer. This offloading of nitty-gritty specifics can come as 
either a blessing or a curse, depending on the case at hand.

In the big picture, rc-style init systems constitute (almost) 
one extreme of the spectrum, while systemd is the perfect example 
for the other extreme, i.e. what happens when scope creep takes 
the alleged simplification more than a few steps too far by 
basically building a shadow OS, epitomized as a nightmarish 
hairball of elements that each are individually inferior compared 
to their "do one thing" unixish counterparts in the actual OS.

Somewhere among this vast spectrum between spaghetti script and 
three-liners consumed by incomprehensible pseudo-modular binary 
monsters there should be something suitable for virtually anybody. 
And that is what makes me buy into the notion of init freedom as 
a declared objective of Devuan.

As always this post is worth what you paid for it, YMMV, etc.

Regards,
Urban

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Re: [DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Basati (bas...@basatu.org):

> I think there should be a little more respect for Europe's greatest
> cultural treasure.

I hope you understand that I was speaking in _exactly_ that spirit.  (In
case it wasn't clear, the person of whom I was saying 'Someone is a bit
provincial' was very much _not_ you, but rather the person who thought
the term 'Azeri' could not legitimately exist in two languages at the
same time.

If my intent of posting a friendly greeting including some warm bits of
welcome in the Basque language was somehow unclear, I am sorry that
happened, but that was the very opposite of my intention.

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Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

[Эльбрус Кондратьев]

On Thu, 2018-07-26 at 18:10 +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl
wrote:
> On 26-07-18 18:00, Basati wrote:
> > I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American military 
> > complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and the military of 
> > the 
> > United States
> >
> > I acknowledge that I used this argument with the DGN trap prior to the fork.
> >
> > My opinion has not changed systemd is a troll horse not yet activated. When 
> > it 
> > is impossible to remove and has thousands and thousands of lines of code 
> > that 
> > make it very difficult to audit. They'll open the back door.
> >
> > For 30 years they have not been able to cope with linux systems. They come 
> > and 
> > go as they please on the windows.
> >
> > The article is clearly biased. It lies and does the same thing that was 
> > done 
> > in debian to obviate the underlying reason.
> >
> > We don't have the resources or the contacts to fight this battle.
> >
> > But we have something much more powerful. We have devuan, its very 
> > existence 
> > is already a resistance. As the number of developers and users increases 
> > little by little. It will strengthen us to deal with this.
> >
> > But they can do NOTHING, we are the ones who DO.
> >
> > I honestly don't think we should waste time with these propaganda anti 
> > devuan 
> > actions by redhat.  I'm convinced they're behind the article. It's their 
> > specialty that they know how to intoxicate.
> >
> > Basati
> >
> 
> 
> I am not into conspiracy theories and keep it simple:
> http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html and then ask why the hell does
> someone wants a init system to do all this stuff? Easy answer: latest
> row in table on that page "Easily writable, extensible and parseable
> service files, suitable for manipulation with enterprise management
> tools" which is not by coincidence the main business of Red Hat.
> 
> Grtz.
> 
> Nick

I agree with this latest point. While most probably they placed a
backdoor in systemd, they may have plenty of them in the hardware and
linux kernel. Access in the military goes by the security clearance of
the individuals, thus any backdoor in systemd may just add another layer
to the stack. 
The largest profit of systemd arises from withdrawing the control of the
users from their own machines, the same way android and windows did so
successfully. More sheep, more profits for everybody, more easy to rule
over them. For 30 years they have fought against linux systems because
users do whatever they want with their machines.

Regards.


-- 
Elbrus Kondratiev


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Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 18:00:45 +0200
Basati  wrote:

> I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American
> military complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and
> the military of the United States

Damn Americans! Every one of them voted for Trump, owns ten
semiautomatic rifles, owns stock in Red Hat, loves systemd, profits
and enjoys his country's military complex.

Let's make a deal, you and I. I won't accuse your people of being
separatist terrorists if you don't accuse mine of being
Redhat loving militarists.

Anyone thinking of dissing a nation on this *technical* list should
look long and hard at the deficiencies of his/her own country. Let he
who is without sin cast the first stone.

Steve Litt
Orlando, Florida, USA
Campaigned and voted for Clinton in 2016
As if that should be anyone's business but mine
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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 26-07-18 18:21, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:13:41 +0200
> info at smallinnovations dot nl  wrote:
>
>> No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd
>> API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd
>> systems too.
> Eu!
>
> What makes you different from the devs at Gnome? If it weren't for devs
> taking advantage of this "opportunity", systemd would not have a
> hegemony today.
>
> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

You did read this part too?

> It would help maintaining packages that depend on systemd too. You only
> would have to add some code to use the libnosystemd instead of
> libsystemd0. Like if no systemd installed then use libnosystemd.
> Depending of which API calls are used in the program and which are
> supported by libnosystemd you would have to do less. And you are not
> depending on a monolithic binary blob like systemd because you can
> script any API call the way you like it.
Do not forget that developers make and maintain almost all the software
in use on your system. If you can make their life and your own easier
what is wrong with that?

Grtz

Nick



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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:13:41 +0200
info at smallinnovations dot nl  wrote:

> No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd
> API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd
> systems too.

Eu!

What makes you different from the devs at Gnome? If it weren't for devs
taking advantage of this "opportunity", systemd would not have a
hegemony today.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:17:21 +0200
Irrwahn  wrote:

> Hendrik Boom wrote on 26.07.2018 12:35:
> > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 06:50:43PM +0200, Irrwahn wrote:  
> >> Hendrik Boom wrote on 25.07.2018 17:59:
> >> [cut]   
> >>> Package dependencies are of the form
> >>> Install X if Y is installed
> >>> Too bad it doesn't handle
> >>> Install X it Y and Z are installed.
> >>> I suspect, though, we don't wand to have to embed a SAT solver
> >>> into the package manager.  It's already complicated enough.  
> >>
> >> Hi Hendrik,
> >>

> What's more, I'd
> go even further and say I wouldn't mind at all if every daemon
> package came with support for all init systems in current use
> (rc-style sysv|openrc, runit, ... , systemd), as that would make
> switching init systems in an already installed system much, much less
> of a pain in the rear. Why would I care about a few dozen tiny
> innocuous unused files on a system that per default install is
> already cluttered with literally thousands of files I'm never going
> to use in any way.

I write my own daemons. There may come a time when I put a free
software license on one of them and distribute it to the world. If I
did so, I might (or might not) include the runit run script I use to
run it. If I were feeling particularly nice that day, I might also
supply an s6 run script, because s6 run scripts are almost 1 to 1
translations from runit.

But there's no way I'd ever take the time to supply facilities for
startup in sysvinit, OpenRC, systemd or busybox. **Not my job!**

> That'd be what I'd call "init freedom". It's very unlikely to happen
> in the foreseeable future though, as it would require cooperative
> effort of hundreds of individuals to include and maintain those init
> support files in the respective packages.

Now it sounds like you're talking about something else. It now sounds
like you're talking about a group of init experts making startup
facilities for programs using various inits. This is a good idea. A
systemd unit file, or an s6 or runit run script offer excellent
documentation for how to configure the application for just about any
init system.


sysvinit and OpenRC typically have init scripts tens or hundreds of
lines, making init integration of an application seem like an arcane
art. What are they thinking? IMHO these immense and unfathomable init
scripts are what opened the door for systemd.


SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 26-07-18 18:00, Basati wrote:
> I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American military 
> complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and the military of the 
> United States
>
> I acknowledge that I used this argument with the DGN trap prior to the fork.
>
> My opinion has not changed systemd is a troll horse not yet activated. When 
> it 
> is impossible to remove and has thousands and thousands of lines of code that 
> make it very difficult to audit. They'll open the back door.
>
> For 30 years they have not been able to cope with linux systems. They come 
> and 
> go as they please on the windows.
>
> The article is clearly biased. It lies and does the same thing that was done 
> in debian to obviate the underlying reason.
>
> We don't have the resources or the contacts to fight this battle.
>
> But we have something much more powerful. We have devuan, its very existence 
> is already a resistance. As the number of developers and users increases 
> little by little. It will strengthen us to deal with this.
>
> But they can do NOTHING, we are the ones who DO.
>
> I honestly don't think we should waste time with these propaganda anti devuan 
> actions by redhat.  I'm convinced they're behind the article. It's their 
> specialty that they know how to intoxicate.
>
> Basati
>


I am not into conspiracy theories and keep it simple:
http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html and then ask why the hell does
someone wants a init system to do all this stuff? Easy answer: latest
row in table on that page "Easily writable, extensible and parseable
service files, suitable for manipulation with enterprise management
tools" which is not by coincidence the main business of Red Hat.

Grtz.

Nick




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[DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.

[Basati]

El miércoles, 25 de julio de 2018 21:21:39 (CEST) Rick Moen escribió:
> Quoting Basati (bas...@basatu.org):
> > But what do you think about this?
> 
> Personally, I think:  Nola esaten da 'someone is a bit provincial'
> euskaraz?  ;->
> 
> Ongi etorri.  Pozten naiz zu ezagutzeaz.  (Ez dakit euskaraz hitz
> egiten.  But the world is much richer for your native language, and I
> thank & congratulate you for the Azeri project.)
> 
> > I thought this was a little trolly.
> 
> Jakinduria.
> 
> (Seriously, I do _not_ speak your fine language, so I hope I didn't
> mangle it too badly.)

I think there should be a little more respect for Europe's greatest cultural 
treasure.

It turns out that our language is the only Neolithic language that survives in 
Europe. We've been calling the Azeri at Fox for over 15.000 years.

I understand that there may be people who do not understand that a project can 
be called anything other than English. I suppose the name LibreOffice will also 
bother you.

In any case, the project is carried out with children who are Basque speakers.

I don't think we need to go into this any further.

A greeting

Basati

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

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[DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

[Basati]

I would like to recall that RedHat is a company of the American military 
complex. With close relations with civil intelligence and the military of the 
United States

I acknowledge that I used this argument with the DGN trap prior to the fork.

My opinion has not changed systemd is a troll horse not yet activated. When it 
is impossible to remove and has thousands and thousands of lines of code that 
make it very difficult to audit. They'll open the back door.

For 30 years they have not been able to cope with linux systems. They come and 
go as they please on the windows.

The article is clearly biased. It lies and does the same thing that was done 
in debian to obviate the underlying reason.

We don't have the resources or the contacts to fight this battle.

But we have something much more powerful. We have devuan, its very existence 
is already a resistance. As the number of developers and users increases 
little by little. It will strengthen us to deal with this.

But they can do NOTHING, we are the ones who DO.

I honestly don't think we should waste time with these propaganda anti devuan 
actions by redhat.  I'm convinced they're behind the article. It's their 
specialty that they know how to intoxicate.

Basati


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Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2018 schrieb Steve Litt:
> [...]
> Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves
> developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit?
> Do these same "developers" neglect to put in error handling for a bad
> value, because the program earlier supposedly set the variable to one
> of two correct values?

Well, windows devs have arrived at linux. what do you expect?

> 
> I found this video particularly obnoxious.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
> 
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Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork

[Antony Stone]

On Thursday 26 July 2018 at 17:16:56, Эльбрус Кондратьев wrote:

> It's called 'herd behavior'. Someone told them that systemd constituted
> 'the way to go'. Nevermind if that way results irrational.

Oh well, at least it wasn't Hurd behaviour, otherwise we wouldn't have an 
Operating System at all...

Antony.

> On Thu, 2018-07-26 at 10:49 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 07:13:52 -0400
> > 
> > Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> > > I found this article online.
> > > 
> > > https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/debian-without-systemd-devuan/
> > 
> > I could have swapped the phrase "s6 plus s6-rc" for "systemd" and that
> > entire video would have been true except the part that says if you're
> > using Enterprise Linux, you're stuck with systemd.
> > 
> > Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves
> > developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit?
> > Do these same "developers" neglect to put in error handling for a bad
> > value, because the program earlier supposedly set the variable to one
> > of two correct values?
> > 
> > I found this video particularly obnoxious.
> > 
> > SteveT

-- 
I own three Windows books, published by O'Reilly.   They are "Windows 
Annoyances", "Office 97 Annoyances" and "Windows 98 Annoyances".   That pretty 
much sums it up for me.

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Luciano Mannucci]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:45:29 +0200
info at smallinnovations dot nl  wrote:

> systemd is in principle
> nothing new in functionality but provides an uniform API for some
> information you otherwise have to program yourself. We can serve them
> the same information without serving systemd this way. And as a start
> just supporting the most used API calls instead of the whole API.
Wasn't there something called uselessd that had this very goal some
time ago? It was promising but died, I don't know why ...

Luciano.
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Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork

[Эльбрус Кондратьев]

It's called 'herd behavior'. Someone told them that systemd constituted
'the way to go'. Nevermind if that way results irrational.

Regards

On Thu, 2018-07-26 at 10:49 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 07:13:52 -0400
> Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> 
> > I found this article online.
> > 
> > https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/debian-without-systemd-devuan/
> 
> I could have swapped the phrase "s6 plus s6-rc" for "systemd" and that
> entire video would have been true except the part that says if you're
> using Enterprise Linux, you're stuck with systemd.
> 
> Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves
> developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit?
> Do these same "developers" neglect to put in error handling for a bad
> value, because the program earlier supposedly set the variable to one
> of two correct values?
> 
> I found this video particularly obnoxious.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt
> Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
> 
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Re: [DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 07:13:52 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> I found this article online.
> 
> https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/debian-without-systemd-devuan/

I could have swapped the phrase "s6 plus s6-rc" for "systemd" and that
entire video would have been true except the part that says if you're
using Enterprise Linux, you're stuck with systemd.

Can I ask all of you something? How do people, who call themselves
developers, joyfully embrace a false choice like systemd vs sysvinit?
Do these same "developers" neglect to put in error handling for a bad
value, because the program earlier supposedly set the variable to one
of two correct values?

I found this video particularly obnoxious.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 26-07-18 16:34, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:45:53 +0200
> info at smallinnovations dot nl  wrote:
>>
>> Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First
>> call to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to
>> libnosystemd API which init system == installed? Or something like
>> that. But put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls
>> to libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names
>> would make libnosystemd far more useful imo. Especially for
>> developers.
> How would you like to be the maintenance programmer in charge of such
> shelled out code? Are we not, at this point, reinventing the complexity
> that was systemd?
>
> SteveT
>
>  
> Steve Litt
> Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
That depends: from a developers point of view systemd is in principle
nothing new in functionality but provides an uniform API for some
information you otherwise have to program yourself. We can serve them
the same information without serving systemd this way. And as a start
just supporting the most used API calls instead of the whole API.

Grtz.

Nick



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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:45:53 +0200
info at smallinnovations dot nl  wrote:

> On 26-07-18 12:15, KatolaZ wrote:
> >
> > The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init
> > system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we
> > could put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to
> > libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names.
> > Then, the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever
> > they want in those scripts, or even remove them altogether.
> >
> > This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related
> > events and "translate" them to events for any other init system,
> > using a simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they
> > like...
> >
> > My2Cents
> >
> > KatolaZ
> >  
> Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First
> call to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to
> libnosystemd API which init system == installed? Or something like
> that. But put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls
> to libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names
> would make libnosystemd far more useful imo. Especially for
> developers.

How would you like to be the maintenance programmer in charge of such
shelled out code? Are we not, at this point, reinventing the complexity
that was systemd?

SteveT

 
Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 26-07-18 16:22, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 04:13:41PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl 
> wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> I guess our main problem is to maintain packages that depend on
> systemd, and provide alternatives for that dependency. Not to ease the
> life of developers that decide to rely on system. Even because I doubt
> that such an API would ever be accepted upstream (i.e., by systemd
> developers). 
>
>
> HND
>
> KatolaZ

It would help maintaining packages that depend on systemd too. You only
would have to add some code to use the libnosystemd instead of
libsystemd0. Like if no systemd installed then use libnosystemd.
Depending of which API calls are used in the program and which are
supported by libnosystemd you would have to do less. And you are not
depending on a monolithic binary blob like systemd because you can
script any API call the way you like it.

Grtz

Nick



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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:15:13 +0200
KatolaZ  wrote:


> This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events
> and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a
> simple mechanism. 

Sounds like a great idea. The daemon phones home to what it thinks is
systemd to day "I'm functional", and that info is given to runit. Cool!

And then I begin to think some more. That notification is given via
dbus. And what, runit must *listen for* this event? With what daemon?
And how do we know that the daemon defines "functional" the same way we
do? What if the daemon chooses to call itself functional when it
achieves a network link, whereas the admin considers it functional only
when it can ping http://www.troubleshooters.com?

> Or just plainly ignore them, if they like...

Upon further consideration, ignoring it sounds like a great idea.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 04:13:41PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:

[cut]

> > But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use
> > libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is
> > exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P
> >
> > HND
> >
> > KatolaZ
> >
> No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd
> API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd
> systems too.
> Developers who do not use libsystemd0 now because they do not need it or
> cannot afford it (embedded systems with a small memory footprint) can
> easily ignore it.
>


I guess our main problem is to maintain packages that depend on
systemd, and provide alternatives for that dependency. Not to ease the
life of developers that decide to rely on system. Even because I doubt
that such an API would ever be accepted upstream (i.e., by systemd
developers). 

> But may be we better discuss this on dev1galaxy instead of this list.
> 

Why should we? This list is more than adequate for such discussions, I
guess. I personally never liked forums :\

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 26-07-18 14:05, KatolaZ wrote:
>> Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First call
>> to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to libnosystemd API
>> which init system == installed? Or something like that. But put in place
>> a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions
>> to a set of scripts with pre-defined names would make libnosystemd far
>> more useful imo. Especially for developers.
>>
> But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use
> libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is
> exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P
>
> HND
>
> KatolaZ
>
No it would not, it will offer developers who want to use some systemd
API call in their development the opportunity to do so for nosystemd
systems too.
Developers who do not use libsystemd0 now because they do not need it or
cannot afford it (embedded systems with a small memory footprint) can
easily ignore it.

But may be we better discuss this on dev1galaxy instead of this list.

Grtz.

Nick



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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Klaus Ethgen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Am Do den 26. Jul 2018 um 14:23 schrieb Lars Noodén:
> Looking at the DSC files, it seems that the culprit is either gnome or
> ssh-askpass-gnome or both.
> 
> Is there an alternative ssh-askpass-* graphical utility likely to be
> more portable which can replace it?

Well, I use gpg-agent instead of ssh-agent. That is a better way to
handle keys and allows more control for about how long you allow the
keys/pass to get cached.

And gpg-agent uses pinentry that is available in many flavours.

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
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pub  4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen 
Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753  62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Lars Noodén]

On 07/26/2018 04:01 PM, Klaus Ethgen wrote:> Hi,
>
> Am Mo den 23. Jul 2018 um 14:24 schrieb Rolf Schmidt:
>> I would ask, if it is true, that the openssh-server still needs
>> libsystemd0 in ascii?
>
>> Can I expect e fix?
>
> If you trust me ( :-D ) you can use my package[0].[snip]

Looking at the DSC files, it seems that the culprit is either gnome or
ssh-askpass-gnome or both.

Is there an alternative ssh-askpass-* graphical utility likely to be
more portable which can replace it?

/Lars
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Klaus Ethgen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi,

Am Mo den 23. Jul 2018 um 14:24 schrieb Rolf Schmidt:
> I would ask, if it is true, that the openssh-server still needs
> libsystemd0 in ascii?
> 
> Can I expect e fix?

If you trust me ( :-D ) you can use my package[0].

It is the debian package cleaned from systemd, the disastrous patch
introduced by debian to lower security (user-group-patch) and two other
small patches that are not accepted upstream.

The most active dist is sid and ceres but I also have
1:7.4p1-11+securityfix1 for ascii and stretch.

Regards
   Klaus

[0] deb ftp://ftp.ethgen.ch/pub/debian-security sid unofficial-secured
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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

Minor correction in-lined below.

Olaf Meeuwissen writes:

> Hi,
>
> KatolaZ writes:
>
>> The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd
>> which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility
>> of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get
>> there.
>
> +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-)
>
> # Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-(
>
> d-systemized ... perhaps
>
> For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a minute
> or so ago?  Dang!  Should have retitled that post :-(
>
>  [1]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html
>
> Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd itself
> stays out of the system.  And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot, out of the
> installer as well.  BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle might be a nice
> avenue to explore for package names!
>
> # init-freedom-botox ... :-\
> # Maybe just plain init-freedom?

I just realized that true init-freedom should be systemd-inclusive, so
don't put that dpkg-cfg hack in any kind of "init-freedom" package,
please.

> Remember, coming up with a neat name is half the fun of an open source
> software project ;-)

Hope this helps,
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

KatolaZ writes:

> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 12:45:53PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl 
> wrote:
>> On 26-07-18 12:15, KatolaZ wrote:
>> >
>> > The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init
>> > system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we could
>> > put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to
>> > libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names. Then,
>> > the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever they want
>> > in those scripts, or even remove them altogether.
>> >
>> > This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events
>> > and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a
>> > simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they like...
>> >
>> Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First call
>> to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to libnosystemd API
>> which init system == installed? Or something like that. But put in place
>> a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions
>> to a set of scripts with pre-defined names would make libnosystemd far
>> more useful imo. Especially for developers.
>>
> But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use
> libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is
> exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P

Exactly.  Any package that Provides: libsystemd0 is *not* at liberty to
change that library's documented API.  No matter how much you may
dislike that API and whatever it stands for, you either provides an API
compliant replacement OR you end up forking every package that depends
on libsystemd0.

Hope this helps,
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[DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

KatolaZ writes:

> The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd
> which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility
> of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get
> there.

+1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-)

# Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-(

d-systemized ... perhaps

For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a minute
or so ago?  Dang!  Should have retitled that post :-(

 [1]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html

Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd itself
stays out of the system.  And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot, out of the
installer as well.  BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle might be a nice
avenue to explore for package names!

# init-freedom-botox ... :-\
# Maybe just plain init-freedom?

Remember, coming up with a neat name is half the fun of an open source
software project ;-)

Hope this helps,
--
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

Joel Roth writes:

> Katolaz wrote on March 2, 2018:
>
>> leloft wrote:
>
>>
>> I issued $locate systemd
>> and got 200 lines of output, including
>> /etc/systemd/system/* (23 files)
>> /lib/systemd/system/* (60 files)
>> /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0 (and 0.17.0)
>> /usr/lib/systemd (25 files)
>> /usr/bin/deb-systemd-helper ((and deb-systemd-invoke)
>> /var/lib/systemd/deb-systemd-helper-enabled/* (68 files)
>> /var/lib/dpkg/info/libsystemd):amd64* (5 files)
>>
>> This seems a lot to me.  Please could you confirm that an ascii
>> installation should contain 200 systemd files as part of a normal
>> ascii installation.  Sorry to trouble you if these are trivial
>> questions, but they feel far from that.
>> Many thanks
>> leloft
>
> Most of those "alarming" files are just systemd units files, put there
> by daemons/packages/utilities who "also" support systemd in a way or
> another. So they are not alarming but just *totally* *harmless* if you
> don't have a running systemd as PID 1, since only systemd understands
> and can run them.  It would be *totally* *useless* (and utterly
> *stupid* IMHO) to fork, rebuild, and maintain a few more hundred
> packages only because they happen to provide a systemd unit file for
> those systems where systemd is used.

Actually, you can keep these files off your systems fairly easily
without the need to fork, rebuild and maintain piles of packages.
The idea is to exploit the power of dpkg's --path-exclude option.
Please note that the dpkg(1) manual page says

  Warning: take into account that depending on the excluded paths you
  might completely break your system, use with caution.

So if you try this and stuff breaks you get to keep the pieces ;-/

You can add a /etc/dpkg/dpkg.cfg.d/systemd-razor file that contains
path-exclude globs for all the systemd files you want to get rid of
like so

  path-exclude=*systemd*
  path-include=/etc/dpkg/dpkg.cfg.d/systemd-razor

although you might just want to be a bit more subtle ;-)

# See dpkg.cfg(5) for (scant) details.

The above prevents installation of any new "offending" files (while
keeping the systemd-razor file installed, doh).  To get rid of files
already installed, you can retro-actively apply the above on what's
installed already like so-ish

  find / -name '*systemd*' ! -name systemd-razor -delete

with appropriate privileges, i.e. as root.  Please adjust if you used a
more (set of) exclude patterns.

People that want to do so can do this themselves rightaway and Devuan
*could* add this dpkg.cfg.d file to a suitable package (and the find
invocation in that package's postinst).  The latter only after a good
deal of testing of course.

Disclaimer: None of the above has been tested (although I do use this
approach to clean out /usr/share/doc in my devuan/slim Docker images,
see https://gitlab.com/paddy-hack/devuan).

Hope this helps,
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 12:45:53PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:
> On 26-07-18 12:15, KatolaZ wrote:
> >
> > The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init
> > system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we could
> > put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to
> > libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names. Then,
> > the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever they want
> > in those scripts, or even remove them altogether.
> >
> > This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events
> > and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a
> > simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they like...
> >
> > My2Cents
> >
> > KatolaZ
> >
> Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First call
> to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to libnosystemd API
> which init system == installed? Or something like that. But put in place
> a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions
> to a set of scripts with pre-defined names would make libnosystemd far
> more useful imo. Especially for developers.
> 

But that would entail forking and patching all the packages which use
libsystemd to force them to check if systemd is available... which is
exactly what we are trying to avoid by nooping libsystemd0... :P

HND

KatolaZ


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[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
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Re: [DNG] A new article on Devuan (in German)

[Irrwahn]

KatolaZ wrote on 26.07.2018 12:03:
> Dear D1rs,
> 
> just to point out the nice article written by Michael Plura and
> recently published in the German computer magazine "iX":
> 
>   https://www.heise.de/select/ix/2018/8/1533453649894916

That was a pleasant read, thanks for the link! I hope we'll be able
to see more and more well balanced articles like this one, written 
by informed individuals who adhere to factual reporting instead of 
stirring up useless emotion-laden fights over spilled milk.

Regards,
Urban
P.S.: 
That bit about Devuan technical support made me chuckle:

| Technische Hilfe erhält man in der Regel schnell, auch wenn sich
| ein beachtlicher Teil der Konversationen um eher esoterische und
| prinzipielle Fragen dreht.

Which roughly translates to:

| In general you get technical support in a timely manner, even if 
| a considerable part of the conversation revolves around more
| esoteric and principled questions.

I take that as a polite way to give us a reminder to always strive 
to keep the signal to noise ratio as high as possible and to let 
threads about conspiracy theories and other cruft quickly find their 
final destination in /dev/null.

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Sapere aude!



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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Irrwahn]

Hendrik Boom wrote on 26.07.2018 12:35:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 06:50:43PM +0200, Irrwahn wrote:
>> Hendrik Boom wrote on 25.07.2018 17:59:
>> [cut] 
>>> Package dependencies are of the form
>>> Install X if Y is installed
>>> Too bad it doesn't handle
>>> Install X it Y and Z are installed.
>>> I suspect, though, we don't wand to have to embed a SAT solver into the
>>> package manager.  It's already complicated enough.
>>
>> Hi Hendrik,
>>
>> I'm not entirely sure I correctly understand what you think that could
>> accomplish. In case you meant it the way I _think_ you did, this would 
>> be my two cents worth of comment:
>>
>> It wouldn't help a bit, at least in the case at hand. The package 
>> dependency exists to make sure a library (here: libsystemd.so.0) the 
>> application (here: sshd) was linked against is present on the system, 
>> as otherwise the application would simply fail to start, which is 
>> undesirable.
> 
> I was thinking about package Y, which has systemd init script in package Xd,
> depend on package Xd only if systemd is present.
> 
> No linking involved.
> 
> But I agree that adding such a mechanism would greaty complicate the 
> package manager, likely beyond feasibility.  Not worth it if it's only 
> to avoid a few small files that may never be used.
> 

Oh, you were talking about init scripts and unit files and the like, so 
I did get you wrong after all. 

I agree it's not worth it, for the reasons you gave. What's more, I'd go 
even further and say I wouldn't mind at all if every daemon package came 
with support for all init systems in current use (rc-style sysv|openrc, 
runit, ... , systemd), as that would make switching init systems in an 
already installed system much, much less of a pain in the rear. Why would 
I care about a few dozen tiny innocuous unused files on a system that per
default install is already cluttered with literally thousands of files 
I'm never going to use in any way.

That'd be what I'd call "init freedom". It's very unlikely to happen in 
the foreseeable future though, as it would require cooperative effort of 
hundreds of individuals to include and maintain those init support files 
in the respective packages.

Regards,
Urban
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[DNG] Linux Without systemd: Why You Should Use Devuan, the Debian Fork

[Hendrik Boom]

I found this article online.

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/debian-without-systemd-devuan/

It doesn't really get into the problems with systemd, unfortunately.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 26-07-18 12:15, KatolaZ wrote:
>
> The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init
> system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we could
> put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to
> libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names. Then,
> the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever they want
> in those scripts, or even remove them altogether.
>
> This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events
> and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a
> simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they like...
>
> My2Cents
>
> KatolaZ
>
Of course does the libsystemd API not provide it, but we can. First call
to libsystemd API == systemd installed? If no, call to libnosystemd API
which init system == installed? Or something like that. But put in place
a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to libsystemd functions
to a set of scripts with pre-defined names would make libnosystemd far
more useful imo. Especially for developers.

Grtz.

Nick



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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 06:50:43PM +0200, Irrwahn wrote:
> Hendrik Boom wrote on 25.07.2018 17:59:
> [cut] 
> > Package dependencies are of the form
> > Install X if Y is installed
> > Too bad it doesn't handle
> > Install X it Y and Z are installed.
> > I suspect, though, we don't wand to have to embed a SAT solver into the
> > package manager.  It's already complicated enough.
> 
> Hi Hendrik,
> 
> I'm not entirely sure I correctly understand what you think that could
> accomplish. In case you meant it the way I _think_ you did, this would 
> be my two cents worth of comment:
> 
> It wouldn't help a bit, at least in the case at hand. The package 
> dependency exists to make sure a library (here: libsystemd.so.0) the 
> application (here: sshd) was linked against is present on the system, 
> as otherwise the application would simply fail to start, which is 
> undesirable.

I was thinking about package Y, which has systemd init script in package Xd,
depend on package Xd only if systemd is present.

No linking involved.

But I agree that adding such a mechanism would greaty complicate the 
package manager, likely beyond feasibility.  Not worth it if it's only 
to avoid a few small files that may never be used.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 12:01:54PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:
> On 26-07-18 10:00, KatolaZ wrote:
> >
> > The main problem is that those packages need to be maintained, and not
> > just stripped of the libsystemd0 dependency once, and then forgotten,
> > which is what happened with most of the Jessie packages that were
> > forked for that reason. 
> >
> > The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd
> > which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility
> > of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get
> > there.
> >
> > My2Cents
> >
> > KatolaZ
> >
> 
> Main question is which direction do we go with libsystemd0. Creating a
> libnosystemd sounds like a good idea to me. Too bad i do not have
> developer skills in that area. But i cloned the git repo to take a look
> at it and i wonder if there is a way to supply certain information from
> daemons if installed to make better use of it. Better in the way that it
> not only tells no systemd installed but make some information available
> like which init system is installed. Or other useful information.

The libsystemd API does not provide any way to check *which* init
system is running (ehm...for "obvious" reasons, right?). But we could
put in place a mechanism that allows to shell out the calls to
libsystemd functions to a set of scripts with pre-defined names. Then,
the system administrator or the packagers can put whatever they want
in those scripts, or even remove them altogether.

This would in principle allow people to "catch" systemd-related events
and "translate" them to events for any other init system, using a
simple mechanism. Or just plainly ignore them, if they like...

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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[DNG] A new article on Devuan (in German)

[KatolaZ]

Dear D1rs,

just to point out the nice article written by Michael Plura and
recently published in the German computer magazine "iX":

  https://www.heise.de/select/ix/2018/8/1533453649894916

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 26-07-18 10:00, KatolaZ wrote:
>
> The main problem is that those packages need to be maintained, and not
> just stripped of the libsystemd0 dependency once, and then forgotten,
> which is what happened with most of the Jessie packages that were
> forked for that reason. 
>
> The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd
> which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility
> of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get
> there.
>
> My2Cents
>
> KatolaZ
>

Main question is which direction do we go with libsystemd0. Creating a
libnosystemd sounds like a good idea to me. Too bad i do not have
developer skills in that area. But i cloned the git repo to take a look
at it and i wonder if there is a way to supply certain information from
daemons if installed to make better use of it. Better in the way that it
not only tells no systemd installed but make some information available
like which init system is installed. Or other useful information.

Another item: is there a resource (preferred text) how to maintain a
package? I would not mind to maintain 1 or 2 packages but i do not have
a clue how to do that.

Grtz.

Nick



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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[Irrwahn]

Simon Hobson wrote on 25.07.2018 23:25:
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
>> Replace 'links2' with 'openssh-server' and 'libfbdirect' with
>> 'libsystemd0', and you should see what I mean. Most of the De??an
>> installations actually have tons of libraries that are never used, or
>> are just used to probe for a certain functionality that is not
>> available. This happens all the time, under the hood. 
> 
> Well yyeee, and no.
> AIUI it is **possible** to write your program with functionality along the 
> lines of :
> - test if libx is available
> - if so
> -- load libx
> -- call function y to see if facility z is available

And there's also the option of linking statically at build time.

Please note I'm mentioning this only for completeness' sake, not 
that I actually propose to descend to that ring of hell. (Except
for the few and far between well defined cases where this is 
actually a reasonable thing to do.)

Static linking: 
After shooting your foot you rebuild the world to recover.

Dynamic linking: 
You shoot everyone's foot at once in a single shot.

Moral of the story: There is no silver bullet.

Regards,
Urban

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:25:32PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote:
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> > Replace 'links2' with 'openssh-server' and 'libfbdirect' with
> > 'libsystemd0', and you should see what I mean. Most of the De??an
> > installations actually have tons of libraries that are never used, or
> > are just used to probe for a certain functionality that is not
> > available. This happens all the time, under the hood. 
> 
> Well yyeee, and no.
> AIUI it is **possible** to write your program with functionality along the 
> lines of :
> - test if libx is available

How do you do that at runtime, exactly, and in a portable way? The
only way would be using libdl, but that's a pretty shitty way of using
libraries, if you have to use that all the time. 

> - if so
> -- load libx
> -- call function y to see if facility z is available
> 
> 
> But that's a fair bit more work than just :
> (assume libx is present, link to libx when building binary)
> - call function y and let the system take care of loading libx
> 
> Certainly when I raised a bug report against clamav the response was a "quite 
> emphatic" "that's how it works, if libsystemd0 isn't present then your system 
> is broken because that's now Debian policy". It's clear that libsystemd 
> linkage is here to stay in Debian packaging, and it's equally clear that 
> rebuilding **LOTS** of packages *just* to remove that one call to find out 
> that systemd isn't present would not be a good use of the limited developer 
> time & skills available.

The main problem is that those packages need to be maintained, and not
just stripped of the libsystemd0 dependency once, and then forgotten,
which is what happened with most of the Jessie packages that were
forked for that reason. 

The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd
which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the possibility
of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so. We will get
there.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
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