RE: Telecommunications Vs. ITE Product

[Gregg Kervill]

Hi Dereck

Let me start by asking one simple question - WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF
CERTIFICATION?

1-  to meet the legal requirement
2-  help market the product
3-  do the 'right thing'
4-  not to kill anyone
5-  make sure that the product is nor recalled


Most companies will answer (4) to "make sure the product is not recalled".
This is a GOOD answer - it may not optimized, in terms of immediate cost,
but this is the one that I would opt for - particularly if I wanted to sleep
at night.



Support the product causes problems in 'associated' applications - will
there be complaints? Will there be good or bad PR?  Will it be easy to
market the product?




What about the EU phrase "reasonable use - foreseeable misuse"?  In this
scenario the outcome, following an up-help complaint, could be an enforced
product recall across the EU.




Hopefully these questions will provide a different (if not correct or
optimized) vantage point from which to address your original question.



Best regards

Gregg



--Original Message-
-From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
-[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Plante, Dereck
-Raymond (Dereck)
-Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:35 AM
-To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
-Subject: Telecommunications Vs. ITE Product
-
-
-
-
-My fellow compliance engineer and I are having a discussion
-about whether a
-product needs to meet the Telecommunications standard
-EN300-386 or the ITE
-standard EN55024.
-
-If a product is a test/development/simulation device to be used in a
-Telecommunications environment, and its intended application is a
-telecommunications market, but it is not actually hooked up to
-the network,
-then what standard would you test it too???
-
-The reason for this question, is that this device would not
-necessarily be
-strictly Telco Center and so therefore if it were required to
-meet EN300-386
-then it would have to be Non-Telco which calls out Class B limits for
-Radiated Emissions.
-
-Any thoughts.
-
-Dereck
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-Dereck R. Plante
-Compliance Engineer
-Lucent Technologies
-Switching Solutions Group, OPENet Solutions
-255 Independence Drive
-Hyannis, MA 02601-1854
-(508) 862-3302
-
-
-
-

-This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
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RE: broadband RE from AC induction motors

[Scott Lacey]

Ken,

The situation you describe sure sounds like the result of arcing. I would
normally suspect that the relay contacts were the culprit if not for the
repetition. If the noise is variable it may be caused by vibration. If
possible, try to physically isolate the relays from the chassis to see if it
goes away. A compressor can generate enough vibration to bounce some relay
contacts. It is even possible that the vibration is causing some arcing
problems inside of one of the motors.

Scott Lacey

-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 1:09 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: broadband RE from AC induction motors



Do any forum members have knowledge of a mechanism by which ac induction
motors (two are fan motors, one a compressor motor) can generate broadband
RE from 30 - 600 MHz?  This is outside my experience.  Are there perhaps
degradation modes that result in arcing?  The motors run off three phase 400
cycle power, 115 Volts rms phase to neutral.  The control system is
bang-bang, just mechanical relays making connections/disconnections based on
temperature and pressure inputs.  The rep rate of the BB noise is variable
but around 10 milliseconds.

Thank you.

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RE: CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation)

[Jim Eichner]

My understanding is that CSA is content with a date, a date-code, or a
date-traceable serial number.  The traceability of the serial number IS
allowed, unlike UL, to rely on the manufacturer's records.
 
Does anyone disagree?
 
Thanks,

Jim Eichner, P.Eng. 
Manager, Engineering Services 
Xantrex Technology Inc. 
Mobile Power 
phone:  (604) 422-2546 
fax:  (604) 420-1591 
e-mail:  jim.eich...@xantrex.com 
web: www.xantrex.com 

 
-Original Message-
From: jsarell...@tuvam.com [mailto:jsarell...@tuvam.com]
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:46 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation)



Hello Group, 

Does anyone know if the date of manufacturing is required to be in the label
of the equipment? I remember having seen this before but I don't know if
this is still the case. Asking a colleage, he said that it is not neccesary?
Any feedback is appriciated. Thank you in advance,

Regards, 

Jorge Sarellano 
TUV PRODUCT SERVICE 
Compliance Engineer 
Phone 408-919-3744 
Fax 408-919-0585 

Have you visited http://www.tuvam.com   


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RE: CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation)

[Lou Guerin]

Jorge,
I just checked my CSA report for No. 950 and it still asks for a date code
or equivalent.
My guess is that they would require the same for 61010.
Lou Guerin
Agency Approvals Manager
Littlefeet, Inc.
 
 
-Original Message-
From: jsarell...@tuvam.com [mailto:jsarell...@tuvam.com]
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:46 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation)
 
Hello Group, 
Does anyone know if the date of manufacturing is required to be in the label
of the equipment? I remember having seen this before but I don't know if
this is still the case. Asking a colleage, he said that it is not neccesary?
Any feedback is appriciated. Thank you in advance,
Regards, 
Jorge Sarellano 
TUV PRODUCT SERVICE 
Compliance Engineer 
Phone 408-919-3744 
Fax 408-919-0585 
Have you visited http://www.tuvam.com   

Re: broadband RE from AC induction motors

[Nick Rouse]

Corona discharge can occur when air is electrically
stressed near its break down limit and this will generate
broadband RF energy.

If you have small bubbles of air in a insulator with a fairly
high dielectric constant in an electrical field it produces an
effect known as dielectric focusing and produces a electric
field strength  in the air in the bubble many times that
given by the voltage across the insulator divided by the
thickness of the insulator.

 If this field strength is strong enough to cause any ionised
air molecules that are around (and there always a few from
the effects of cosmic rays if nothing else) to be accelerated to
sufficient velocity before they bump into other molecules for them
to ionise them then this can lead to a cascade. Eventually at high
enough fields this can lead to full blown arcing but before that there
is a region before that where only the statistically rare long free paths
will give enough energy to produce many generations and the
cascades the result is eventually peter out.  The result is a
bubble of highly ionised gas that emits RF energy as the electrical
current that movement of the ions varies randomly.
.
 Increasing the frequency of the AC supply makes things worse.
A shorter time between cycles leaves less time for the ions
to be neutralised after the field strength dies before the next
peak comes leaving a greater seed population of ions to start
the next cycle.
 This is one of the reasons it is common when impregnating
transformers and other electrical equipment to do so in a vacuum
Although this effect can take some time to produce complete failure
it will very likely do so in the end

Nick Rouse

- Original Message -
From: "Ken Javor" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 6:08 PM
Subject: broadband RE from AC induction motors


>
> Do any forum members have knowledge of a mechanism by which ac induction
> motors (two are fan motors, one a compressor motor) can generate broadband
> RE from 30 - 600 MHz?  This is outside my experience.  Are there perhaps
> degradation modes that result in arcing?  The motors run off three phase
400
> cycle power, 115 Volts rms phase to neutral.  The control system is
> bang-bang, just mechanical relays making connections/disconnections based
on
> temperature and pressure inputs.  The rep rate of the BB noise is variable
> but around 10 milliseconds.
>
> Thank you.
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
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>  Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old
messages are imported into the new server.
>


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RE: Websites for world-wide requirements

[paul_j_smith]

Hi,

I remember there was a relatively recent discussion on the a website that
can provide the various regulatory requirements and or contacts for each
country throughout the world.

Does anyone still have that website address?

Thanks for your anticipated help.

REgards,Paul J Smith , Teradyne, Boston

Go Patriots


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CSA labeling requirements to EN61010-1 (deviation)

[jsarellano]

Hello Group,

Does anyone know if the date of manufacturing is required to be in the label
of the equipment? I remember having seen this before but I don't know if
this is still the case. Asking a colleage, he said that it is not neccesary?
Any feedback is appriciated. Thank you in advance,

Regards,

Jorge Sarellano
TUV PRODUCT SERVICE
Compliance Engineer
Phone 408-919-3744
Fax 408-919-0585

Have you visited http://www.tuvam.com

RE: Telecommunications Vs. ITE Product

[richwoods]

I am going to make some assumptions. I am keying in on what you said - "it
is not actually hooked up to the network." I therefore assume that the
device in question connects to a port of a telecom device that is connected
to the network. The device in question is not required for the telecom
device to function, but is only used to "test/develop/simulate" the telecom
equipment. I will assume that the primary function of the device is to
process data (in and/or out), so I conclude that the device is ITE.

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


-Original Message-
From: Plante, Dereck Raymond (Dereck) [mailto:drpla...@lucent.com]
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 11:35 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Telecommunications Vs. ITE Product




My fellow compliance engineer and I are having a discussion about whether a
product needs to meet the Telecommunications standard EN300-386 or the ITE
standard EN55024.  

If a product is a test/development/simulation device to be used in a
Telecommunications environment, and its intended application is a
telecommunications market, but it is not actually hooked up to the network,
then what standard would you test it too???  

The reason for this question, is that this device would not necessarily be
strictly Telco Center and so therefore if it were required to meet EN300-386
then it would have to be Non-Telco which calls out Class B limits for
Radiated Emissions.  

Any thoughts.

Dereck







Dereck R. Plante
Compliance Engineer
Lucent Technologies
Switching Solutions Group, OPENet Solutions
255 Independence Drive
Hyannis, MA 02601-1854
(508) 862-3302




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broadband RE from AC induction motors

[Ken Javor]

Do any forum members have knowledge of a mechanism by which ac induction 
motors (two are fan motors, one a compressor motor) can generate broadband
RE from 30 - 600 MHz?  This is outside my experience.  Are there perhaps
degradation modes that result in arcing?  The motors run off three phase 400
cycle power, 115 Volts rms phase to neutral.  The control system is
bang-bang, just mechanical relays making connections/disconnections based on
temperature and pressure inputs.  The rep rate of the BB noise is variable
but around 10 milliseconds.

Thank you.

---
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Re: EN 61000-3-3 compliant heater controller

[Andrew Carson]

I know it is not fair. But the PSUs in question were not ours, and the problem 
was at a customers facility, so
revealing any technical details of the problem and fix will be breaching 
confidentiality agreements.

John Woodgate wrote:

> I read in !emc-pstc that Andrew Carson  wrote
> (in <3c4fd4e8.31a84...@uk.xyratex.com>) about 'EN 61000-3-3 compliant
> heater controller', on Thu, 24 Jan 2002:
> >As much as I can say, was a large number (600+) of switch mode supplies,
> >installed in such a manner that their front
> >end emc filters were ineffective. It was not on a European or US distribution
> >distribution and once a simple fix was
> >in place, near perfect sine waves.
>
> You can't get way with that! 'Simple fix' indeed. If you know of a
> simple fix, you tell! (;-)
> --
> Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
> After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero.
> PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
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>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old 
> messages are imported into the new server.

--

Andrew Carson - Senior Compliance Engineer, Xyratex, UK
Phone: +44 (0)23 9249 6855 Fax: +44 (0)23 9249 6014



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Telecommunications Vs. ITE Product

[Plante, Dereck Raymond (Dereck)]

My fellow compliance engineer and I are having a discussion about whether a
product needs to meet the Telecommunications standard EN300-386 or the ITE
standard EN55024.  

If a product is a test/development/simulation device to be used in a
Telecommunications environment, and its intended application is a
telecommunications market, but it is not actually hooked up to the network,
then what standard would you test it too???  

The reason for this question, is that this device would not necessarily be
strictly Telco Center and so therefore if it were required to meet EN300-386
then it would have to be Non-Telco which calls out Class B limits for
Radiated Emissions.  

Any thoughts.

Dereck







Dereck R. Plante
Compliance Engineer
Lucent Technologies
Switching Solutions Group, OPENet Solutions
255 Independence Drive
Hyannis, MA 02601-1854
(508) 862-3302




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Re: Immunity for Automobiles

[Ken Javor]

There are a whole host of SAE-Jxxx requirements.  I don't know if those are
international or only USA application.

--
From: "Lou Aiken" 
To: 
Subject: Immunity for Automobiles
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Thu, Jan 24, 2002, 11:40 PM


Gentlefolk:  Will any of you EMC experts tell me what immunity standard(s)
apply to a new production automobile?

I am a PSE person and therefore discard most of the EMC messages, but I seem
to remember a string of automobile concerns not too long ago but evidently I
have already dumped them.

Regards, Lou

Lou Aiken
27109 Palmetto Drive
Orange Beach, AL
36561 USA

Tel ++1 251 981 6786
Fax ++1 251 981 3054
Cel ++1 251 979 4648

Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in ) about 'EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs', on Fri,
25 Jan 2002:
>Dear John 
>Thank you for your replies. 
>A couple of points... 
>
>Optional application of standards: I believe there is nothing to stop 
>purchasers from using any IEC standards in their contracts with suppliers. 
>So a purchaser of a 30A/phase equipment could specify that the equipment 
>must meet the emissions limits set out in IEC 61000-3-2. Nothing to do 
> with 
>CE marking, of course, merely a private agreement. This was what I meant 
> by 
>'optional' in the below. 

But that is crazy! Pardon my French, but *there are no emission limits
for a 30 A equipment in the standard*. What you are saying is that a
purchaser might impose contractually limits appropriate for, say, a 5 A
equipment to a 30 A equipment, which is indeed true but hardly more
realistic than a requirement for no emissions at all. It falls into the
same category as the all too common 'contractual requirement', 'The
equipment shall comply with all British, European and International
Standards.'. Does that include the one for toilet paper?

>
>Do I understand from the following correspondence... 
>QUOTE 
>>    4) My copy of EN 61000-3-2 has a paragraph at the end of its Scope 
>section 
>>    that says: 
>>    "Special equipment, which is not widely used and is designed in such 
> a 
>way 
>>    that it is unable to comply with the requirements (limits), may be 
>subject 
>>    to installation restrictions. The supply authorities shall be 
> notified 
>as 
>>    authorization may be required before connection." 
>
>This gobbledegook was deleted by the Millennium Amendment (MA, aka A14 
>to EN61000-3-2). No-one could define 'special' and 'not widely used', 
>when challenged to do so, so out it came! 
>
>>    So custom-made or low-volume manufactured equipment (even if under 
>>    16A/phase) does not have to comply with EN 61000-3-2, as long as 
> their 
>users 
>>    check with their power suppliers that they are OK to be connected. 
>
>Yes, this is explained *properly* in clause 4 of the MA. 
>UNQUOTE 
>... that although the 'gobbledygook' paragraph has been removed the option 
>to not comply with EN 61000-3-2 still exists as long as users check with 
>their power suppliers that they are permitted to connect the equipment 
>concerned? 
>
Yes. I suggest you get the edition of the standard that is notified in
the OJEC and see for yourself. Be careful! CENELEC in its 'wisdom' has
got out of step with IEC, so there is an amended First Edition of the EN
AND a 'Second Edition' which is actually 6 months out-of-date compared
with the amended First Edition, unless you are into kitchen appliances. 
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero.
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs

[John Woodgate]

I read in !emc-pstc that rehel...@mmm.com wrote (in
) about 'EN 61000-3-2
applicability and let-outs', on Fri, 25 Jan 2002:
>
>
>
>>I realise that none of the above give much comfort to manufacturers of
>>domestic or consumer products, but maybe a computer manufacturer could
>offer
>>a version without PFC only for use in installations that have a dedicated
>LV
>>supply.
>
>No, the big problem is for manufacturers who make commercial and light
>industrial equipment 

The Millennium Amendment re-classifies most of that equipment as Class
A.
 
>that are under
>16A and are connected to the public power mains. This is the majority of
>commercial equipment.
>
>As was mentioned previously, the harmonic and flicker standards are
>considered by many to be "skewed"
>standards because they were heavily influenced by the power industry
>virtually to the exclusion of all other
>data and input.

No, that's not entirely fair. AFAIK, nothing (credible) that was
*submitted* was ignored, but very little was submitted. Equipment
manufacturers either did not see a need to participate in the work or
(in the case of SMEs) did not know about it.
>
>The issue is not whether harmonics and line votage variations are a
>problem. The issue is to what extent they
>are a problem. 

Correct, and this is different in different countries, even within
Europe.

>And until these standards become "unskewed" and all data is
>weighed, these two "tainted"
>standards will not be believeable.
>
The large 'Millennium' amendment to IEC/EN61000-3-3 removes virtually
all the 'skewing' from that standard, and the MA to IEC/EN61000-3-2 goes
a long way to removing it from that standard, *for most products*. If
you don't agree, please tell us what 'skewing' you still detect. With
specific information, we can take action in the IEC WG. Without it, we
can't.
-- 
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk 
After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero.
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!

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Luxembourg EMF Conference

[richwoods]

A conference was held last November to discuss the state of current European
law concerning EMF and future regulations. The presentations can be found at
the following link.

> http://www.era.int/www/en/r_electro.htm
> 
Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


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Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs

[reheller]

>I realise that none of the above give much comfort to manufacturers of
>domestic or consumer products, but maybe a computer manufacturer could
offer
>a version without PFC only for use in installations that have a dedicated
LV
>supply.

No, the big problem is for manufacturers who make commercial and light
industrial equipment that are under
16A and are connected to the public power mains. This is the majority of
commercial equipment.

As was mentioned previously, the harmonic and flicker standards are
considered by many to be "skewed"
standards because they were heavily influenced by the power industry
virtually to the exclusion of all other
data and input.

The issue is not whether harmonics and line votage variations are a
problem. The issue is to what extent they
are a problem. And until these standards become "unskewed" and all data is
weighed, these two "tainted"
standards will not be believeable.

Bob Heller
3M Product Safety, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252




   
CherryClough@ao 
   
l.comTo: j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk  

 cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
   
01/24/2002 (bcc: Robert E. 
Heller/US-Corporate/3M/US)  
11:58 AM Subject: EN 61000-3-2 
applicability and let-outs  
Please respond  
   
to CherryClough 
   

   

   





Dear John
I understand the following statements to be true.
Please make corrections / comments where necessary.

1) EN 61000-3-2 only applies to equipment consuming up to 16A/phase, and
there are no mandatory harmonic limits in the EU (yet) for higher-powered
equipment, other than what the power supplier might impose.

So EN 61000-3-2 is optional for equipment consuming >16A/phase.

2) EN 61000-3-2 currently has a let-out for "professional equipment" that
consumes more than 1kW, so its application is optional for that category of
equipment too.

This could exclude many of the larger products sold solely for commercial
and/or industrial use from EN 61000-3-2.

(Maybe the combined air-conditioner / personal computer may not be such a
bad
idea if it gets consumption up above 1kW!).

3) The 'public low voltage supply' is a 4156/230V supply with more than one
consumer connected. Large plants or office building often take their power
at
MV (11kV or more) and transform their own LV supply with their own
distribution transformer - creating a 'private' low voltage supply
dedicated
for their own use.

EN 61000-3-2 is optional for any equipment sold solely for use on such
dedicated low voltage supplies.

Privately-generated LV supplies ditto.

4) My copy of EN 61000-3-2 has a paragraph at the end of its Scope section
that says:
"Special equipment, which is not widely used and is designed in such a way
that it is unable to comply with the requirements (limits), may be subject
to
installation restrictions. The supply authorities shall be notified as
authorization may be required before connection."

So custom-made or low-volume manufactured equipment (even if under
16A/phase)
does not have to comply with EN 61000-3-2, as long as their users check
with
their power suppliers that they are OK to be connected.

Maybe they could agree to deal with any harmonic issues at site-level, by
installing an active harmonic cancellation unit.


Regards, Keith Armstrong




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Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs

[CherryClough]

Dear John
Thank you for your replies.
A couple of points...

Optional application of standards: I believe there is nothing to stop 
purchasers from using any IEC standards in their contracts with suppliers. So 
a purchaser of a 30A/phase equipment could specify that the equipment must 
meet the emissions limits set out in IEC 61000-3-2. Nothing to do with CE 
marking, of course, merely a private agreement. This was what I meant by 
'optional' in the below.

Do I understand from the following correspondence...
QUOTE
>4) My copy of EN 61000-3-2 has a paragraph at the end of its Scope 
section 
>that says: 
>"Special equipment, which is not widely used and is designed in such a 
way 
>that it is unable to comply with the requirements (limits), may be 
subject 
>to installation restrictions. The supply authorities shall be notified 
as 
>authorization may be required before connection." 

This gobbledegook was deleted by the Millennium Amendment (MA, aka A14
to EN61000-3-2). No-one could define 'special' and 'not widely used',
when challenged to do so, so out it came!

>So custom-made or low-volume manufactured equipment (even if under 
>16A/phase) does not have to comply with EN 61000-3-2, as long as their 
users 
>check with their power suppliers that they are OK to be connected. 

Yes, this is explained *properly* in clause 4 of the MA.
UNQUOTE
... that although the 'gobbledygook' paragraph has been removed the option to 
not comply with EN 61000-3-2 still exists as long as users check with their 
power suppliers that they are permitted to connect the equipment concerned?

Regards, Keith Armstrong
www.cherryclough.com

In a message dated 24/01/02 22:31:21 GMT Standard Time, j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk 
writes:

> Subj:Re: EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs
> Date:24/01/02 22:31:21 GMT Standard Time
> From:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk (John Woodgate)
> Sender:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Reply-to: mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk";>j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk 
> (John Woodgate)
> To:emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> 
> I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in <84.222da8c6.298
> 1a...@aol.com>) about 'EN 61000-3-2 applicability and let-outs', on Thu,
> 24 Jan 2002:
> >Dear John 
> >I understand the following statements to be true. 
> >Please make corrections / comments where necessary. 
> >
> >1) EN 61000-3-2 only applies to equipment consuming up to 16A/phase, 
> and 
> >there are no mandatory harmonic limits in the EU (yet) for 
> higher-powered 
> >equipment, other than what the power supplier might impose. 
> 
> Yes. Furthermore , it applies only to equipment intended to be connected
> to the *public* LV supply.
> >
> >So EN 61000-3-2 is optional for equipment consuming >16A/phase. 
> 
> No. It *does not apply*. There are no limits stated for over 16A.
> >
> >2) EN 61000-3-2 currently has a let-out for "professional equipment" 
> that 
> >consumes more than 1kW, so its application is optional for that 
> category of 
> >equipment too. 
> 
> I don't know what you mean by 'optional'. Since there are *no limits*
> for professional equipment above 1 kW, there is nothing to 'apply'.
> >
> >This could exclude many of the larger products sold solely for 
> commercial 
> >and/or industrial use from EN 61000-3-2. 
> 
> Yes, up to 16A/phase. These products are relatively few in number and
> have diverse 'harmonic signatures' (complex spectra). Their impact on
> the network is small.
> >
> >(Maybe the combined air-conditioner / personal computer may not be 
> such a 
> >bad idea if it gets consumption up above 1kW!). 
> 
> Yes, we have heard a lot about joke products like that in the WG. The
> joke is wearing a bit thin now.
> >
> >3) The 'public low voltage supply' is a 4156/230V supply with more 
> than one 
> >consumer connected. Large plants or office building often take their 
> power 
> >at MV (11kV or more) and transform their own LV supply with their own 
> >distribution transformer - creating a 'private' low voltage supply 
> dedicated 
> >for their own use. 
> >
> >EN 61000-3-2 is optional for any equipment sold solely for use on such 
> >dedicated low voltage supplies. 
> 
> It *does not apply*.
> >
> >Privately-generated LV supplies ditto. 
> 
> It *does not apply*. I think your references to 'optional' may create
> (even more!) confusion, which we definitely do not need.
> >
> >4) My copy of EN 61000-3-2 has a paragraph at the end of its Scope 
> section 
> >that says: 
> >"Special equipment, which is not widely used and is designed in such a 
> way 
> >that it is unable to comply with the requirements (limits), may be 
> subject 
> >to installation restrictions. The supply authorities shall be notified 
> as 
> >authorization may be required before connection." 
> 
> This gobbledegook was deleted by the Millennium Amendment (MA, aka A14
> to EN6

Re: Harmonics measurement instrumentation - solved !

[Gunter_J_Maass]

The situation with the two setups for harmonic measurement was solved, and
the problem was quite simple ...
The resistance of the cables used with the watt meter was 0.25 ohms .
Enough to reduce the harmonics sufficiently.
Not using the appropriate cables was a basic mistake... but I am happy to
have learned another detail that makes difference in an EMC test.

Thanks for all that replied my mail.

Günter J. Maass
Researcher - Power Electronics Development
EMBRACO S.A.





  "Robert Macy" 

   To:   
, 
  Sent by:  cc: 

  owner-emc-pstc@majordoSubject:  Re: Harmonics 
measurement instrumentation 
  mo.ieee.org   





  22/01/02 18:06

  Please respond to 

  "Robert Macy" 










Hmmm...measured with a current meter, then measured with a wattmeter and
got
different answersHarmonics out of phase? contain no power?

- Robert -

   Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com
   408 286 3985  fx 408 297 9121
   AJM International Electronics Consultants
   619 North First St,   San Jose, CA  95112


-Original Message-
From: gunter_j_ma...@embraco.com.br 
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:56 AM
Subject: Harmonics measurement instrumentation



List

I would like your precious opinion about a situation regarding harmonic
current measurement (61000-3-2).

First case:
Using a sinusoidal AC power source, with a controlled output voltage
(almost perfect sine, voltage THD lower than the needed, even with load), I
measured the current harmonics using the internal instrument of the power
source.
The 13th and 15th harmonics were right above the limits (Class A limits).

Second case:
I add a digital wattimeter to measure the harmonics.
The harmonic content became 30% lower than the first case (good enough to
pass). And I got this results with the two instruments (the one inside the
power source, and  the wattimeter).

My first thought was the increased impedance due to the wattimeter (Zm).
But I got 50mV of drop voltage in this instrument (peak voltage), that is
lower than the specified in 61000-3-2, Annex B (0,15Vpeak maximum).
And the impedance of its current shunt is only 0,008 ohms (data from its
manual).
This put my first guess down ! Theoretically, the wattimeter couldn't
attenuate so much the harmonics !

Any idea of what could be happening  ?

Thank you again.

Günter J. Maass
Researcher - Power Electronics Development
EMBRACO S.A.



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Immunity for Automobiles

[Lou Aiken]

Gentlefolk:  Will any of you EMC experts tell me what immunity standard(s) 
apply to a new production automobile?

I am a PSE person and therefore discard most of the EMC messages, but I seem  
to remember a string of automobile concerns not too long ago but evidently I 
have already dumped them.

Regards, Lou  

Lou Aiken
27109 Palmetto Drive
Orange Beach, AL
36561 USA

Tel ++1 251 981 6786
Fax ++1 251 981 3054
Cel ++1 251 979 4648

Re: Mil Strd 461 Cand D

[Ken Javor]

For actual specs, try my website, www.emccompliance.com.  For a comparison,
try old ITEMs from that time period, about 92-93.

--
From: "Alan E Hutley" 
To: "emc-pstc" 
Subject: Mil Strd 461 Cand D
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Thu, Jan 24, 2002, 11:33 AM


Hi Group
Can anyone tell me or point me to a web site where I can find the difference
between these two standards.
Thank you
Alan E Hutley
EMC Compliance Journal
www.compliance-club.com 

RE: noise immunity on mains powered equipment

[Andre Boons]

Hi again,

I think I expressed myself not that clear enough when asking the question? 
so a bit more clear now:
The noise is injected on the AC mains port of mains powered (commercially 
sold) equipment by a bulk current injection method.

What standard describe such a testmethod.
Kris



From: "Price, Ed" 
Reply-To: "Price, Ed" 
To: "'EMC-PSTC'" 
Subject: RE: noise immunity on mains powered equipment
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:27:05 -0800


I can add that there is a Ford vehicular EMC specification, document
ES-XW7T-1A278-AB, that includes a Method RI-112 bulk current immunity test.
(I can send you a pdf on request.)

Regards,

Ed



Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780  (Voice)
858-505-1583  (Fax)
Military & Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis


>-Original Message-
>From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
>Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 8:49 AM
>To: kristiaan.carpent...@alcatel.be; 'EMC-PSTC'
>Subject: Re: noise immunity on mains powered equipment
>
>
>
>I was hoping someone would be able to answer this more
>authoritatively than
>I can, but if there have been any replies, I missed them.  I
>am aware that
>the US FDA imposes a BCI type requirement like MIL-STD-461
>CS114.  Of course
>that is for medical equipment.  RTCA/DO-160 imposes a very similar BCI
>requirement on commercial avionics.  SAE ARP 1972 included BCI
>testing but
>was just a recommended practice, I don't know of any entity
>that actually
>levied it as a requirement.  The automotive world in this
>country at least
>has adopted BCI techniques as well.  There were in-house specs
>(I recall
>seeing a GM spec) and a better version has been adopted as an
>SAE J-type
>requirement industry-wide.  That's about all I can think of
>off the top of
>my head.
>
>--
>>From: kristiaan.carpent...@alcatel.be
>>To: "'EMC-PSTC'" 
>>Subject: noise immunity on mains powered equipment
>>Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2002, 11:06 AM
>>
>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Has any-one ever heard about a standard (non-military) that
>describes noise
>> immunity of mains powered equipment.
>> Testing seems to be done by the current bulk injection
>method. the standard
>> is not IEC 61000-4-6.
>> Regards,
>> Kris Carpentier

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