Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-16 Thread cogoman 
On 08/15/2012 09:26 PM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote:
> I think problem again here.
> I am not talking about UBUNTU.
> I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program name-
> from icon on EMC2 where one load new program.
> When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular
> case---DELETE those file name.
> Is is clear now what i am talking about?
   LinuxCNC (formerly EMC2) without Ubuntu, or without the real time 
kernal, would make your PC just an expensive paperweight.  Ubuntu is the 
operating system on the live CD.
   There is a method for deleting files in Ubuntu, and this youtube 
video (and maybe the ones that follow it) should show how it's done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg1fwIaxDOA


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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-16 Thread Eric Keller 
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Chris Radek  wrote:

>
> In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete
> files in the file OPEN dialog box.  It is an abomination.
>
> In fact, this is the standard operating system behavior, not just ms
office.  I am not sure you can override this behavior in the file open
dialog box, although there are many obscure options.  I had a bug in one of
my windows programs that I didn't feel like fixing.  It would fail somehow
if I chose to over-write an existing file.  So if I wanted to over-write, I
would delete the old file from the open file dialog.  It's also nice when
cleaning up the cruft in a directory when you don't have to open the file
manager to delete a few files.  I generally prefer to have the freedom to
use my computer the way I want, and I find the linux desktop managers to be
a little clunky because they limit what you can do.

 I can see that a programmer should be able to override this behavior in
the case of a CNC file where an operator shouldn't be able to mess up a
directory.
Eric Keller
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-16 Thread Dave 
On 8/15/2012 10:35 PM, Chris Radek wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:42:18PM -0400, John Kasunich wrote:
>
>> Do you delete word processor files from the "file open" menu
>> of the word processor?  Do you delete spreadsheets from the
>> "file open" menu of the spreadsheet program?  NO.
>>  
> In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete
> files in the file OPEN dialog box.  It is an abomination.
>
>
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>>In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete
files in the file OPEN dialog box.  It is an abomination.<<


Yes, that is correct.

I was going to say the same thing.

When you show people you can do that oftentimes their jaw drops open..   
:-)

But really not much different than hitting the start button in Windows 
XP to shutdown the PC.

Yet another well thought out "software feature"  ;-)

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-16 Thread Stuart Stevenson 
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Chris Morley
wrote:

>
> In fact I could understand cases where I would not want the operator to use
> anything but the cnc screen.
>
>
> Chris M
>
> In my world there would almost never be a time when I would want an
operator to access anything but the cnc screen.

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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-16 Thread andy pugh 
On 16 August 2012 03:42, John Kasunich  wrote:

> Do you delete word processor files from the "file open" menu
> of the word processor?  Do you delete spreadsheets from the
> "file open" menu of the spreadsheet program?  NO.

Yes, actually.
Windows allows this, and it is sometimes quite useful. You can also
make a copy of a file before opening it, or move it to a new location.
Apple don't allow this, as far as I can tell.
I am not sure if the normal file-open dialog in Ubuntu allows this,
but the one that Axis uses is very minimalist.

I do think that there is an argument for using a different file
selector in Axis, perhaps one that allows navigation to network
drives, for example.

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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-15 Thread Dave Caroline 
> Question is will it ever happen?
Instead of whining why not add the facilities you want, it is open source

Dave Caroline

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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-15 Thread Chris Morley 



> 
> I think problem again here.
> I am not talking about UBUNTU.
> I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program name- 
> from icon on EMC2 where one load new program.
> When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular 
> case---DELETE those file name.
> Is is clear now what i am talking about?
> 
> 

It is clear enough now what you are talking about.

While I don't agree so much with having delete available in the load program
dialog, I see nothing wrong with a delete file option in the GUI.

If I had a production machine that showed the cnc screen full screen, I think
I would find it annoying to minimize the screen and use the file manager.

In fact I could understand cases where I would not want the operator to use
anything but the cnc screen.


Chris M
  
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-15 Thread N. Christopher Perry 


> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:42:18PM -0400, John Kasunich wrote:
>> 
>> Do you delete word processor files from the "file open" menu
>> of the word processor?  Do you delete spreadsheets from the
>> "file open" menu of the spreadsheet program?  NO.
> 
> In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete
> files in the file OPEN dialog box.  It is an abomination.
> 
But, on the other hand, it is very useful.  I use these features on a regular 
basis. 

I'm not terribly interested if it is an 'abominaton' if it helps me get the job 
done.

N.C.

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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-15 Thread Chris Radek 
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:42:18PM -0400, John Kasunich wrote:
> 
> Do you delete word processor files from the "file open" menu
> of the word processor?  Do you delete spreadsheets from the
> "file open" menu of the spreadsheet program?  NO.

In ms office in windows, you can in fact rename/move/delete
files in the file OPEN dialog box.  It is an abomination.


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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-15 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 15 August 2012 22:26:54 John Kasunich did opine:

> Why do you expect EMC to be different than any other program?
> 
> Do you delete word processor files from the "file open" menu
> of the word processor?  Do you delete spreadsheets from the
> "file open" menu of the spreadsheet program?  NO.  You delete
> files using your computer's file manager application (or the
> command line).
> 
> G-code files are no different than spreadsheets or word
> processor documents.  They are just files, and you can copy,
> delete, or rename them using the operating system just like
> any other file.  It would be stupid to duplicate that
> functionality in EMC, when the operating system does it better,
> and in a standard and well-known way that doesn't require any
> extra learning curve.
> 
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012, at 09:26 PM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote:
> > I think problem again here.
> > I am not talking about UBUNTU.
> > I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program
> > name- from icon on EMC2 where one load new program.
> > When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular
> > case---DELETE those file name.
> > Is is clear now what i am talking about?
> > 
> > On 2012-08-15 19:05, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
> > >> Point that file, from icon where pick a program, process of DELETE
> > >> /remove of it need to be simple.
> > > 
> > > Ubuntu already does that.  Just like windows.  I don't see how it
> > > could be
> > > made simpler.
> > > 
> > > Stephen

I for one cannot grasp why the OP wants to delete the file.  Doesn't he 
want to ever make another copy of that part?  What if he had a power 
failure in the middle of that part?  He would be totally screwed and have 
to redesign it before he could make another.

Boggles what mind I have left.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-15 Thread John Kasunich 
Why do you expect EMC to be different than any other program?

Do you delete word processor files from the "file open" menu
of the word processor?  Do you delete spreadsheets from the
"file open" menu of the spreadsheet program?  NO.  You delete
files using your computer's file manager application (or the
command line).

G-code files are no different than spreadsheets or word
processor documents.  They are just files, and you can copy,
delete, or rename them using the operating system just like
any other file.  It would be stupid to duplicate that
functionality in EMC, when the operating system does it better,
and in a standard and well-known way that doesn't require any
extra learning curve.


On Wed, Aug 15, 2012, at 09:26 PM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote:
> I think problem again here.
> I am not talking about UBUNTU.
> I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program name- 
> from icon on EMC2 where one load new program.
> When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular 
> case---DELETE those file name.
> Is is clear now what i am talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2012-08-15 19:05, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
> >> Point that file, from icon where pick a program, process of DELETE
> >> /remove of it need to be simple.
> >>
> >
> > Ubuntu already does that.  Just like windows.  I don't see how it 
> > could be
> > made simpler.
> >
> > Stephen
> > 
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-15 Thread a 
I think problem again here.
I am not talking about UBUNTU.
I am talking about EMC2 2.2.5 and problem in DELETE file -program name- 
from icon on EMC2 where one load new program.
When load file/program into EMC2 --EMC2 2.2.5 in my particular 
case---DELETE those file name.
Is is clear now what i am talking about?




On 2012-08-15 19:05, Stephen Dubovsky wrote:
>> Point that file, from icon where pick a program, process of DELETE
>> /remove of it need to be simple.
>>
>
> Ubuntu already does that.  Just like windows.  I don't see how it 
> could be
> made simpler.
>
> Stephen
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-15 Thread Stephen Dubovsky 
> Point that file, from icon where pick a program, process of DELETE
> /remove of it need to be simple.
>

Ubuntu already does that.  Just like windows.  I don't see how it could be
made simpler.

Stephen
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-15 Thread a 
Hi
Eventually with the help of other point made clear.
Point that file, from icon where pick a program, process of DELETE 
/remove of it need to be simple.
Like –click on file—DELETE ---result file not there any more.
That will be significant help to –“diligent in policing their files”.
EMC2 is a diamond (rough or no) but in constant process of cut to make 
it better and convenient to use for “Final User”.
Question is will it ever happen?

aram


On 2012-08-12 10:32, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> 2012/8/12 jeremy youngs :
>> I have almost no idea what you are meaning here. But are you saying
>> that there are too many files in the file-selection dialog in
>> LinuxCNC/Axis?
>>
>> andy if you will tell us I think we will all know :) I think he was
>> saying its difficult to remove a file but with a large hard drive 
>> why
>> would you want to
>
> I guess that the reason for dissatisfaction of original poster is 
> that
> it is hard to find the one right file, if it is hiding among hundreds
> of others.
> So for sake of convenient work it is useful to keep things in order
> and to remove unnecessary files. Or at least put them in other folder
> (subfolder or whatever).
>
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>
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> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-12 Thread jeremy youngs 
right i think its more of a user and tidieness issue than one of the
software, If one is not diligent in policing their files pretty soon
chaos erupts, Ive seen this many times on the shop floor. It amounts
to form a system never deviate
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-12 Thread Viesturs Lācis 
2012/8/12 jeremy youngs :
> I have almost no idea what you are meaning here. But are you saying
> that there are too many files in the file-selection dialog in
> LinuxCNC/Axis?
>
> andy if you will tell us I think we will all know :) I think he was
> saying its difficult to remove a file but with a large hard drive why
> would you want to

I guess that the reason for dissatisfaction of original poster is that
it is hard to find the one right file, if it is hiding among hundreds
of others.
So for sake of convenient work it is useful to keep things in order
and to remove unnecessary files. Or at least put them in other folder
(subfolder or whatever).

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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-12 Thread jeremy youngs 
I have almost no idea what you are meaning here. But are you saying
that there are too many files in the file-selection dialog in
LinuxCNC/Axis?

andy if you will tell us I think we will all know :) I think he was
saying its difficult to remove a file but with a large hard drive why
would you want to
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-12 Thread andy pugh 
On 11 August 2012 21:28,   wrote:
> In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out.
> number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that
> shows available programs.

I have almost no idea what you are meaning here. But are you saying
that there are too many files in the file-selection dialog in
LinuxCNC/Axis?

I admit to being no sort of fan of the very limited version of a file
selector used by Axis (It is rather non-obvious how to get to a
mounted network drive (Desktop->(show hidden files)->.hgfs-> seems to
be the way) but it is surely not that hard to click Places->Home
Folder->linuxcnc->nc_files and manage the directory from the normal
GUI?

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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-12 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Sunday 12 August 2012 05:51:59 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine:

> About (4) to how make money.
> 1. sell support ---is OK
> 2. sell hardware -- How come? Point of EMC2 is that one can buy
> hardware by them self generic parts and components.
> I did that -- all AC Servomotors, Amplifiers for AC servomotors, boards
> Only 2 companies for that - Servodynamics and Mesa electronics.
> 3. (Red Hat)-? why ? UBUNTU is there
> 4.  Tractor Supply -- try and see . you will put money in will you get
> money back?
> 
> Important.
> About commercial CNC machine with EMC2, need to make video and put on
> YouTube to potential customer can see it.

already been done, lots of times. Learn to use the search box.

> Do you have video on YouTube to show your success of putting EMC2 on
> commercial CNC machine? How controller look - monitor, key board and
> mouse?

Not personally.  I am not competing with those that do unless its right 
here in my home town.

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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-12 Thread Dave 
>>2. sell hardware -- How come? Point of EMC2 is that one can buy
hardware by them self generic parts and components.<<

The customers I deal with are typically not looking for parts and pieces.   
They are busy making things and are looking for a solution.

They want a machine updated via a conversion or a new custom machine that runs 
reliably.   They also usually want operator training after the machine is 
started up.

They usually don't care what drives are used or what PCs are used.   They want 
a completed machine, training on the machine, and support when something goes 
wrong in the future.

I don't understand your comment:>>
all AC Servomotors, Amplifiers for AC servomotors, boards
Only 2 companies for that - Servodynamics and Mesa electronics.<<

While Mesa sells boards for Linuxcnc, so does Pico Systems and others.
There are hundreds of companies that sell servo drives and motors.

If the customer wants to have a system that looks just like a Fanuc or 
Siemens system, then chances are that they really want a Fanuc or 
Siemens system.

If they can't afford a Fanuc or Siemens system, then LinuxCNC can be a 
good alternative in many applications.

I had a video up of a 4 head gantry style water jet cutter that I did a 
couple of years ago, but I think it has been deleted.I used a 19" 
flat screen industrial monitor in a steel enclosure and surrounded it with
typical oil tight industrial pushbuttons for start cycle, stop cycle, 
and a range of other things.   The waterjet is fed automatically via a 
conveyor.

They run that waterjet a lot and it has been extremely reliable.

I did a controls retrofit job on a automatic bandsaw at the same plant 
last week.  The bandsaw automatically cuts up large buns of foam into 
sheets for processing  on the waterjet.
We used a Micro PLC and touch screen for that job as there was no 
requirement for any G code style programmable motion.

Dave


On 8/12/2012 1:46 AM, a...@conceptmachinery.com wrote:
> About (4) to how make money.
> 1. sell support ---is OK
> 2. sell hardware -- How come? Point of EMC2 is that one can buy
> hardware by them self generic parts and components.
> I did that -- all AC Servomotors, Amplifiers for AC servomotors, boards
> Only 2 companies for that - Servodynamics and Mesa electronics.
> 3. (Red Hat)-? why ? UBUNTU is there
> 4.  Tractor Supply -- try and see . you will put money in will you get
> money back?
>
> Important.
> About commercial CNC machine with EMC2, need to make video and put on
> YouTube to potential customer can see it.
> Do you have video on YouTube to show your success of putting EMC2 on
> commercial CNC machine? How controller look - monitor, key board and
> mouse?
> 
>
> Interesting.
> “Most of us who make money with EMC2 do it integrating it into
> machines.
>
> None of my machines require anyone know a command line, EMC starts
> automatically.  See the documentation if you want to do this too...
> It's not that hard.”
>
> How many commercial CNC machines and machine shops in whole country use
> EMC2?
> Any idea?
>
> Just read documentation and problem solved. ?
> For the  “Final User”?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2012-08-11 22:27, Jack Coats wrote:
>
>> In a similar situation, a friend had a company for several years that
>> 'sold' Asterisk (a Linux based PBX phone system).
>>
>> The users understood how to use and do some user configuration of the
>> software,  but my friends company
>> made money by selling consulting services and the hardware (phones
>> and
>> server and other misc equipment).
>> Some customers didn't understand why it cost so much since the
>> software is 'free'.
>>
>> Basically the only way to make money with open source I have found is
>> to
>>
>> 1) sell support (any number of contract and support companies from
>> IBM
>> &  Dell to the thousands of 1&  2 person shops world wide)
>> 2) sell hardware (Digium)
>> 3) sell value added product (Red Hat)
>> 4) use it as a tool (as end-user) to make/sell other stuff (locally
>> Tractor Supply is a RedHat shop that sells farm and garden supplies
>> and equipment through a retail network and online)
>>
>> In parrens above are some samples or $$ makers using that model.
>> Like
>> in (4) above, there are many examples on this list.
>>
>> Making money from OSS is hard.  But then again, making $$ anyway
>> always is.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond.
>> Discussions
>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in
>> malware
>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> ___
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>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.ne

Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-12 Thread Viesturs Lācis 
2012/8/11  :
> Hi
> In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out.
> number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that
> shows available programs.
> to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc
> Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user?
> How -- click on it --and --DELETE.
> Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and not
> LINUX software Engineer.


I know that You are here on this list for a while now. You have been
using Ubuntu and LinuxCNC, so I am really wondering, how hard is it to
come up with a thought that it is much easier to delete old and
unnecessary files in the moment, when the nc_files directory (or
whatever place You store the files in) is open in the file manager
program (most probably - nautilus) as You copy the new g-code files in
than doing it in some small "open file" window?
Add new files and remove the old ones at once. And in Nautilus You can
select numerous files at a time and delete them quicker than selecting
them one by one in "open file" dialog window.

LinuxCNC is not guilty for curved hands of its user.
Damn, it is so obvious even for 5th grader (which is really far from
Linux software engineer) and yet there is somebody to whine about
that.

Having a bad day and now You need something/somebody to help You get
the steam off?


> Do you have video on YouTube to show your success of putting EMC2 on
> commercial CNC machine? How controller look - monitor, key board and
> mouse?

There are more than few guys here on the list that earn their living
with building and/or retrofitting cnc machines. I would add myself to
that group. And since they hang out on this mailing list, it means
that they use [also] LinuxCNC.
Here You can see some videos with the welding robot I built. The
control cabinet also is shown in some places:
http://www.youtube.com/user/viestartss/videos

> How many commercial CNC machines and machine shops in whole country use
> EMC2?
> Any idea?

You already have been told that it is not possible to find that out,
the only numbers You will get will be some guesstimates.

And regarding the question of how to earn money with LinuxCNC, I have
seen only 2 things that will lead to payment from client into my bank
account:
1) add some additional value to their machine:
whenever I get a job for retrofitting existing machine, I make it
"better" than it is. Either the machine becomes more stable and
reliable, more convenient to use thus providing time savings to client
which translates in increased productivity, or I add some new
capabilities which expand the usefulness of the machine. For example,
I did a plasma table retrofit. I got that job because client was not
able to get 2 different THC sensors to work together with their
existing controls. LinuxCNC handles that with ease after I modified
thc module, so that was the part of the whole deal that allowed me to
get that job and earn something.

2) save the cost for the client:
learn LinuxCNC and mechanical things good enough that You can build
simple machine faster and cheaper (by knowing better sources of
different parts - motors, drives etc) than client would do it by
themselves, thus they would get the machine sooner and start producing
their things faster thus generating cash flow and that is what people
are willing to pay for;

Or even better - win Your competition and combine both of these things
together (but then the first point is compared against the offer of
Your competitors, not their existing machine). That is what I did with
the machine I am currently building. I was able to make it faster and
designed it in a way that it takes 40% less space in their premises.
And I am pretty happy about the competitor's price as I managed to

Ok, I have to admit that not everything is going smooth, I already am
over the deadline and the machine is not yet ready, but client visited
my last week to check on my progress and they already are willing to
talk about the next machine they need...

The conclusion is that LinuxCNC itself will not earn any money to
anyone, it is the effort and time for integration it in existing or
yet-to-be-built machine that client is paying for. It is the overall
result and total solution provided to client that it is paying for.
Creating new configs with all sorts of stuff in HAL, adjusting
kinematics modules, customizing HAL components, creating VCP panels -
all that is part of my effort to provide customer with machine they
need and that is what they are paying for - LinuxCNC adjusted for
their particular needs. That takes me as an integrator to post
questions here on mailing list, when I do not know, how to handle
particular issue, read manuals, search wiki, so that the "End user"
can simply use the machine, not knowing, what exactly is he/she
actually working with.


Your described situation, when:
1) "End user" needs to know command-line and be Linux software engineer;
2) "End user" needs to RTFM just to get

Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-12 Thread Dave Caroline 
> Just read documentation and problem solved. ?
> For the  “Final User”?
>

Not the final user you the integrator.
You should create whatever you think you need for your interface
it is open source so that you can

Dave Caroline

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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-11 Thread a 
About (4) to how make money.
1. sell support ---is OK
2. sell hardware -- How come? Point of EMC2 is that one can buy 
hardware by them self generic parts and components.
I did that -- all AC Servomotors, Amplifiers for AC servomotors, boards
Only 2 companies for that - Servodynamics and Mesa electronics.
3. (Red Hat)-? why ? UBUNTU is there
4.  Tractor Supply -- try and see . you will put money in will you get 
money back?

Important.
About commercial CNC machine with EMC2, need to make video and put on 
YouTube to potential customer can see it.
Do you have video on YouTube to show your success of putting EMC2 on 
commercial CNC machine? How controller look - monitor, key board and 
mouse?


Interesting.
“Most of us who make money with EMC2 do it integrating it into 
machines.

None of my machines require anyone know a command line, EMC starts
automatically.  See the documentation if you want to do this too...
It's not that hard.”

How many commercial CNC machines and machine shops in whole country use 
EMC2?
Any idea?

Just read documentation and problem solved. ?
For the  “Final User”?






On 2012-08-11 22:27, Jack Coats wrote:
> In a similar situation, a friend had a company for several years that
> 'sold' Asterisk (a Linux based PBX phone system).
>
> The users understood how to use and do some user configuration of the
> software,  but my friends company
> made money by selling consulting services and the hardware (phones 
> and
> server and other misc equipment).
> Some customers didn't understand why it cost so much since the
> software is 'free'.
>
> Basically the only way to make money with open source I have found is 
> to
>
> 1) sell support (any number of contract and support companies from 
> IBM
> & Dell to the thousands of 1 & 2 person shops world wide)
> 2) sell hardware (Digium)
> 3) sell value added product (Red Hat)
> 4) use it as a tool (as end-user) to make/sell other stuff (locally
> Tractor Supply is a RedHat shop that sells farm and garden supplies
> and equipment through a retail network and online)
>
> In parrens above are some samples or $$ makers using that model.  
> Like
> in (4) above, there are many examples on this list.
>
> Making money from OSS is hard.  But then again, making $$ anyway 
> always is.
>
> 
> --
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. 
> Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in 
> malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users


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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-11 Thread Jack Coats 
In a similar situation, a friend had a company for several years that
'sold' Asterisk (a Linux based PBX phone system).

The users understood how to use and do some user configuration of the
software,  but my friends company
made money by selling consulting services and the hardware (phones and
server and other misc equipment).
Some customers didn't understand why it cost so much since the
software is 'free'.

Basically the only way to make money with open source I have found is to

1) sell support (any number of contract and support companies from IBM
& Dell to the thousands of 1 & 2 person shops world wide)
2) sell hardware (Digium)
3) sell value added product (Red Hat)
4) use it as a tool (as end-user) to make/sell other stuff (locally
Tractor Supply is a RedHat shop that sells farm and garden supplies
and equipment through a retail network and online)

In parrens above are some samples or $$ makers using that model.  Like
in (4) above, there are many examples on this list.

Making money from OSS is hard.  But then again, making $$ anyway always is.

--
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threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions 
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-11 Thread jeremy youngs 
I presume for non hobby applications at that? :)

On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:04 AM, John Murphy  wrote:

> Most of us who make money with EMC2 do it integrating it into machines.
>
> None of my machines require anyone know a command line, EMC starts
> automatically.  See the documentation if you want to do this too...
> It's not that hard.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:59 PM,   wrote:
> > Hi
> > Gene i did not talk about grandpa level of machinist that do manual
> > machining.
> > I am talking about 99% of machinist in CNC machine shop, with 5 to 35
> > years of experience.
> > Most of them went through many types of CNC machines and many types of
> > CAD CAM.
> > They are a "Final User" of EMC2.
> > They are who will buy and pay $$$ for EMC2.
> > It is not reasonable to tell them -- that " to use EMC2 you also must
> > to learn command line of LINUX"
> > it will not happen ever.
> > result of that:
> > 1. good and capable EMC2 used on few commercial machines (not a hobby)
> > in whole country. Very few commercial shop actually use EMC2.
> >
> > 2. people that know EMC2 can not make $$$ money out of knowledge of
> > EMC2. I am interesting to know who is actually can earn money from
> > implementation of EMC2? If machine shop do not ask and pay for EMC2 than
> > from where $$money will come?
> > EMC2 is in ice age.
> > To change situation need to work on putting EMC2, under more familiar
> > shell of machines shops existing controllers.
> > Machinist does not care what actually run CNC machine.
> > If machine is working and there is more familiar push button, jag
> > wheal, toggle switch, light bulb, manual rotational feed rate switch
> > than existing situation will change and it will be fast.
> > That will benefit machine shop and those that will help machine shop to
> > understand and use EMC2.
> > Help to “Final User” to digest EMC2 is an only way to make money out of
> > EMC2.
> > aram
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2012-08-11 19:46, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> On Saturday 11 August 2012 20:47:27 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine:
> >>
> >>> Hi
> >>> In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out.
> >>> number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that
> >>> shows available programs.
> >>> to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc
> >>> Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user?
> >>> How -- click on it --and --DELETE.
> >>> Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and
> >>> not
> >>> LINUX software Engineer.
> >>> This is one answer why with all good thing EMC2 still has hard time
> >>> to
> >>> gain trust from final user.
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Aram
> >>>
> >> Aram, a point needs made here.  And I am going to ramble a bit too to
> >> make
> >> that point.
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> I am friends with 2 of the local shops, one doing oil & gas well
> >> service
> >> rig design & fabrication to order, the other doing drive shaft
> >> maintenance.
> >> The first has a bridgeport, 3 or 4 lathes, power hacksaws and can
> >> weld with
> >> most anything hotter than a kitchen match, with mig & tig setups plus
> >> a
> >> smith wrench, all at the ready.
> >>
> >> The other only has one bit of electronics near his lathes, a drive
> >> shaft
> >> balancing rig.
> >>
> >> These guys, neither one, is the least bit interested in doing a thing
> >> with
> >> cnc, because basically both are doing 'one offs'.  Neither think they
> >> have
> >> the time, or the resources, to invest in such a wildcat idea.
> >>
> >> If these guys are any indication of what one might call a machinist,
> >> I
> >> can't say as I've seen either of them do "precise" work from
> >> drawings.
> >>
> >> In todays world, the true machinist should be familiar enough with
> >> gcode to
> >> do any thing the machine itself is capable of.  He is NOT a machinist
> >> in
> >> the sense that your grandfather might have been, but when he needs 50
> >> copies of something, the cnc mill with enough accessories to feed it,
> >> and
> >> take its output, will have those 50 copies made while grandpa is just
> >> getting started on the 3rd tool setup of 10 or more changes by lunch
> >> the
> >> next day, when the cnc guy has those 50 copies in a box ready for ups
> >> to
> >> come and get.
> >>
> >> Todays modern machine shop, run by competent people, can out produce
> >> the
> >> best my grandfather could have done by a large margin.
> >>
> >> And yet the things I saw him do, on a farm in Madison County Iowa,
> >> were
> >> just as  much magic to me when I was 5 or 6, as some of the stuff we
> >> can
> >> watch on you tube today. except that today I know its not magic, just
> >> the
> >> human demonstrating his intelligence whether its programming a robot
> >> to
> >> carve a toyota engine block, or carving a new Wincharger blade from
> >> solid
> >> oak to replace the one that broke in yesterdays high wind before the
> >> batteries in the ice house were completely dead.  Yup, grandpa was
>

Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-11 Thread John Murphy 
Most of us who make money with EMC2 do it integrating it into machines.

None of my machines require anyone know a command line, EMC starts
automatically.  See the documentation if you want to do this too...
It's not that hard.



On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:59 PM,   wrote:
> Hi
> Gene i did not talk about grandpa level of machinist that do manual
> machining.
> I am talking about 99% of machinist in CNC machine shop, with 5 to 35
> years of experience.
> Most of them went through many types of CNC machines and many types of
> CAD CAM.
> They are a "Final User" of EMC2.
> They are who will buy and pay $$$ for EMC2.
> It is not reasonable to tell them -- that " to use EMC2 you also must
> to learn command line of LINUX"
> it will not happen ever.
> result of that:
> 1. good and capable EMC2 used on few commercial machines (not a hobby)
> in whole country. Very few commercial shop actually use EMC2.
>
> 2. people that know EMC2 can not make $$$ money out of knowledge of
> EMC2. I am interesting to know who is actually can earn money from
> implementation of EMC2? If machine shop do not ask and pay for EMC2 than
> from where $$money will come?
> EMC2 is in ice age.
> To change situation need to work on putting EMC2, under more familiar
> shell of machines shops existing controllers.
> Machinist does not care what actually run CNC machine.
> If machine is working and there is more familiar push button, jag
> wheal, toggle switch, light bulb, manual rotational feed rate switch
> than existing situation will change and it will be fast.
> That will benefit machine shop and those that will help machine shop to
> understand and use EMC2.
> Help to “Final User” to digest EMC2 is an only way to make money out of
> EMC2.
> aram
>
>
>
>
> On 2012-08-11 19:46, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Saturday 11 August 2012 20:47:27 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine:
>>
>>> Hi
>>> In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out.
>>> number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that
>>> shows available programs.
>>> to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc
>>> Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user?
>>> How -- click on it --and --DELETE.
>>> Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and
>>> not
>>> LINUX software Engineer.
>>> This is one answer why with all good thing EMC2 still has hard time
>>> to
>>> gain trust from final user.
>>> Thanks
>>> Aram
>>>
>> Aram, a point needs made here.  And I am going to ramble a bit too to
>> make
>> that point.
>>
>> 
>>
>> I am friends with 2 of the local shops, one doing oil & gas well
>> service
>> rig design & fabrication to order, the other doing drive shaft
>> maintenance.
>> The first has a bridgeport, 3 or 4 lathes, power hacksaws and can
>> weld with
>> most anything hotter than a kitchen match, with mig & tig setups plus
>> a
>> smith wrench, all at the ready.
>>
>> The other only has one bit of electronics near his lathes, a drive
>> shaft
>> balancing rig.
>>
>> These guys, neither one, is the least bit interested in doing a thing
>> with
>> cnc, because basically both are doing 'one offs'.  Neither think they
>> have
>> the time, or the resources, to invest in such a wildcat idea.
>>
>> If these guys are any indication of what one might call a machinist,
>> I
>> can't say as I've seen either of them do "precise" work from
>> drawings.
>>
>> In todays world, the true machinist should be familiar enough with
>> gcode to
>> do any thing the machine itself is capable of.  He is NOT a machinist
>> in
>> the sense that your grandfather might have been, but when he needs 50
>> copies of something, the cnc mill with enough accessories to feed it,
>> and
>> take its output, will have those 50 copies made while grandpa is just
>> getting started on the 3rd tool setup of 10 or more changes by lunch
>> the
>> next day, when the cnc guy has those 50 copies in a box ready for ups
>> to
>> come and get.
>>
>> Todays modern machine shop, run by competent people, can out produce
>> the
>> best my grandfather could have done by a large margin.
>>
>> And yet the things I saw him do, on a farm in Madison County Iowa,
>> were
>> just as  much magic to me when I was 5 or 6, as some of the stuff we
>> can
>> watch on you tube today. except that today I know its not magic, just
>> the
>> human demonstrating his intelligence whether its programming a robot
>> to
>> carve a toyota engine block, or carving a new Wincharger blade from
>> solid
>> oak to replace the one that broke in yesterdays high wind before the
>> batteries in the ice house were completely dead.  Yup, grandpa was
>> ahead of
>> his time on that farm with a 32 volt battery setup for lights after
>> dark.
>> In those days folks who had a washing machine at all, got it from
>> Maytag
>> and it had a small 2 stroke engine with a step on lever to start it.
>> But
>> it could kick back and even run backwards.
>>
>> One of those kickbacks broke grandmothers ankle in

Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-11 Thread jeremy youngs 
I am the final user of emc The cnc machinist you speak of. While I can give
some validity to the thought of making *LINUXCNC2*  (this is what it is
called now we called it Emc2 in the last ice age) a little closer to a
commercial machine. One can do this with several available guis. User
interfaces, jog pendants feed rate over ride etc etc this is a hardware
issue all of this will run on linux cnc.As to making  you make money
selling parts, many people on this list build machines or components
professionally. As far as command line and deleting a program once the
machine i setup there is no need for a command line and in some instances
(searches, bulk delete, and file managment) the command line is far more
effective, what version  are you running? I just cleaned my home folder by
clicking and sending to trash  much easier than some of the matsuura
machines I have run. lcnc can adapt to v irtually any situation including
probing, digitizing and toolsetting I really cant think of what else i
would want.
Having learned conversational programming, eia,ascii, and these controls
fanuc mazak, mazatrol, matuura , fadal monarch, and yang it is the
machinists job to know the machine.
The last time I checked lcnc is not about money but about a great motion
controller, highly adaptive and updating faster and better than the
commercial competition. I would say that to criticize here is akin to
looking a gift horse in the mouth. It is also about community, good support
and tolerance for ot as these people become friends all of these are far
better than any support ive recieved from Ill put you on hold for an hour
and call you back in 5 min (tomorrow) front desk support. without being
harsh I can only see a very small part of your point and just today I was
chatting with jt whom was working on tutorials for gui implementation in
his spare time for free. So iI think its about more than money and I think
we can give the others a run for it anyhow. Thats my .02 if ya dont like it
keep the change, if its not enough wait till we are better paid.
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Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-11 Thread a 
Hi
Gene i did not talk about grandpa level of machinist that do manual 
machining.
I am talking about 99% of machinist in CNC machine shop, with 5 to 35 
years of experience.
Most of them went through many types of CNC machines and many types of 
CAD CAM.
They are a "Final User" of EMC2.
They are who will buy and pay $$$ for EMC2.
It is not reasonable to tell them -- that " to use EMC2 you also must 
to learn command line of LINUX"
it will not happen ever.
result of that:
1. good and capable EMC2 used on few commercial machines (not a hobby) 
in whole country. Very few commercial shop actually use EMC2.

2. people that know EMC2 can not make $$$ money out of knowledge of 
EMC2. I am interesting to know who is actually can earn money from 
implementation of EMC2? If machine shop do not ask and pay for EMC2 than 
from where $$money will come?
EMC2 is in ice age.
To change situation need to work on putting EMC2, under more familiar 
shell of machines shops existing controllers.
Machinist does not care what actually run CNC machine.
If machine is working and there is more familiar push button, jag 
wheal, toggle switch, light bulb, manual rotational feed rate switch 
than existing situation will change and it will be fast.
That will benefit machine shop and those that will help machine shop to 
understand and use EMC2.
Help to “Final User” to digest EMC2 is an only way to make money out of 
EMC2.
aram




On 2012-08-11 19:46, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Saturday 11 August 2012 20:47:27 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine:
>
>> Hi
>> In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out.
>> number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that
>> shows available programs.
>> to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc
>> Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user?
>> How -- click on it --and --DELETE.
>> Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and 
>> not
>> LINUX software Engineer.
>> This is one answer why with all good thing EMC2 still has hard time 
>> to
>> gain trust from final user.
>> Thanks
>> Aram
>>
> Aram, a point needs made here.  And I am going to ramble a bit too to 
> make
> that point.
>
> 
>
> I am friends with 2 of the local shops, one doing oil & gas well 
> service
> rig design & fabrication to order, the other doing drive shaft 
> maintenance.
> The first has a bridgeport, 3 or 4 lathes, power hacksaws and can 
> weld with
> most anything hotter than a kitchen match, with mig & tig setups plus 
> a
> smith wrench, all at the ready.
>
> The other only has one bit of electronics near his lathes, a drive 
> shaft
> balancing rig.
>
> These guys, neither one, is the least bit interested in doing a thing 
> with
> cnc, because basically both are doing 'one offs'.  Neither think they 
> have
> the time, or the resources, to invest in such a wildcat idea.
>
> If these guys are any indication of what one might call a machinist,  
> I
> can't say as I've seen either of them do "precise" work from 
> drawings.
>
> In todays world, the true machinist should be familiar enough with 
> gcode to
> do any thing the machine itself is capable of.  He is NOT a machinist 
> in
> the sense that your grandfather might have been, but when he needs 50
> copies of something, the cnc mill with enough accessories to feed it, 
> and
> take its output, will have those 50 copies made while grandpa is just
> getting started on the 3rd tool setup of 10 or more changes by lunch 
> the
> next day, when the cnc guy has those 50 copies in a box ready for ups 
> to
> come and get.
>
> Todays modern machine shop, run by competent people, can out produce 
> the
> best my grandfather could have done by a large margin.
>
> And yet the things I saw him do, on a farm in Madison County Iowa, 
> were
> just as  much magic to me when I was 5 or 6, as some of the stuff we 
> can
> watch on you tube today. except that today I know its not magic, just 
> the
> human demonstrating his intelligence whether its programming a robot 
> to
> carve a toyota engine block, or carving a new Wincharger blade from 
> solid
> oak to replace the one that broke in yesterdays high wind before the
> batteries in the ice house were completely dead.  Yup, grandpa was 
> ahead of
> his time on that farm with a 32 volt battery setup for lights after 
> dark.
> In those days folks who had a washing machine at all, got it from 
> Maytag
> and it had a small 2 stroke engine with a step on lever to start it.  
> But
> it could kick back and even run backwards.
>
> One of those kickbacks broke grandmothers ankle in about '39 IIRC.  
> In
> those days it was pretty serious because that put the wife out of 
> work and
> running a farm was a full time job for both.  About 3 days later 
> grandpa
> hitched up the team of horses and loaded up a wagonload of shelled 
> corn and
> took it to town, coming back with a 1/3rd horse electric motor and 
> enough
> heavy cable to reach the machine, and we had

Re: [Emc-users] Final user of EMC2.

2012-08-11 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Saturday 11 August 2012 20:47:27 a...@conceptmachinery.com did opine:

> Hi
> In emc2 when loading program, it is hard to delete program out.
> number of program will increase and clog those small place icon that
> shows available programs.
> to delete need --type - in exact -- name of file etc
> Why not to make delete of file --simple -- to final user?
> How -- click on it --and --DELETE.
> Need to remember that final user/users of EMC2 are machinist - and not
> LINUX software Engineer.
> This is one answer why with all good thing EMC2 still has hard time to
> gain trust from final user.
> Thanks
> Aram
> 
Aram, a point needs made here.  And I am going to ramble a bit too to make 
that point.



I am friends with 2 of the local shops, one doing oil & gas well service 
rig design & fabrication to order, the other doing drive shaft maintenance.  
The first has a bridgeport, 3 or 4 lathes, power hacksaws and can weld with 
most anything hotter than a kitchen match, with mig & tig setups plus a 
smith wrench, all at the ready.

The other only has one bit of electronics near his lathes, a drive shaft 
balancing rig.

These guys, neither one, is the least bit interested in doing a thing with 
cnc, because basically both are doing 'one offs'.  Neither think they have 
the time, or the resources, to invest in such a wildcat idea.

If these guys are any indication of what one might call a machinist,  I 
can't say as I've seen either of them do "precise" work from drawings.

In todays world, the true machinist should be familiar enough with gcode to 
do any thing the machine itself is capable of.  He is NOT a machinist in 
the sense that your grandfather might have been, but when he needs 50 
copies of something, the cnc mill with enough accessories to feed it, and 
take its output, will have those 50 copies made while grandpa is just 
getting started on the 3rd tool setup of 10 or more changes by lunch the 
next day, when the cnc guy has those 50 copies in a box ready for ups to 
come and get.

Todays modern machine shop, run by competent people, can out produce the 
best my grandfather could have done by a large margin.

And yet the things I saw him do, on a farm in Madison County Iowa, were 
just as  much magic to me when I was 5 or 6, as some of the stuff we can 
watch on you tube today. except that today I know its not magic, just the 
human demonstrating his intelligence whether its programming a robot to 
carve a toyota engine block, or carving a new Wincharger blade from solid 
oak to replace the one that broke in yesterdays high wind before the 
batteries in the ice house were completely dead.  Yup, grandpa was ahead of 
his time on that farm with a 32 volt battery setup for lights after dark.  
In those days folks who had a washing machine at all, got it from Maytag 
and it had a small 2 stroke engine with a step on lever to start it.  But 
it could kick back and even run backwards.

One of those kickbacks broke grandmothers ankle in about '39 IIRC.  In 
those days it was pretty serious because that put the wife out of work and 
running a farm was a full time job for both.  About 3 days later grandpa 
hitched up the team of horses and loaded up a wagonload of shelled corn and 
took it to town, coming back with a 1/3rd horse electric motor and enough 
heavy cable to reach the machine, and we had the first electric washing 
machine in rural Madison County IA (think Bridges, with Eastwood & steep) 
by almost a decade, no one else had one until the REA came down the road 
with power in '47.  I still have the scars on a finger that the wringer on 
that SOB gave me too.

And that is my point, technology moves on, and those who will not move with 
it, _will_ be left behind.  That choice is theirs.

I think it was Bob Dillon who sang "The times, they are a changin."  and he 
was right.



Cheers, Gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page:  is up!
Yow!  Am I in Milwaukee?

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