Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir

[John Howell]

At 4:01 PM -0400 9/16/11, Raymond Horton wrote:
>On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:17 PM, John Howell  wrote:
>>  familiar with Piston.  But of course any
>>  first-semester orchestration course has to spend
>>  hours on the ranges and transpositions, while in
>>  my Vocal-Choral Arranging class I have the
>>  students actually ARRANGING short exercises from
>>  day one.
>
>I am still appalled at people in music at advanced stages (including
>one conductor at a very advanced stage) who think that tuba sounds an
>octave lower than written.  It IS a bit confusing for orchestration
>beginners, since contrabassoon and doublebass (the corresponding
>contrabass instruments in woodwinds and strings) both sound 8ba, but
>no one ever said life would be consistent.

I haven't run into that, but I'm equally appalled 
at the otherwise good composers or arrangers who 
don't understand that the relationship between 
euphonium and tuba (in band transcriptions of 
orchestral music) is NOT the same as the 
relationship between cellos and basses in an 
orchestra.  Sure, the tubas can PLAY the low 
notes that the string basses play, but they don't 
fill the same musical function when they're 
groveling down there!  The use of Eb and BBb 
tubas is also something too many arrangers are 
ignorant of (and that's really a better analog of 
cello and bass), but it's  never safe to assume 
that a band will have both available.  (Says I 
who just moved back from bass trombone to Eb tuba 
because that's what our band needs this Fall; our 
terrific tubist from last Spring and Summer is 
now a Freshman music major at Indiana.)

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)

[John Howell]

At 3:26 PM -0400 9/16/11, Raymond Horton wrote:
>On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:38 PM, John Howell  wrote:
>
>>  Bagpipes?  Well, there's a place for them and
>>  their music, preferably not too close by!
>>
>It's a classic:
>Q. Why do bagpipers walk when they play?
>A. They're trying to get away from the noise.

On the other hand, when I was in the Air Force 
Band I was always VERY impressed with the pipe 
corps.  They were awfully good together, and the 
drummers played the cleanest rudiments I've ever 
heard:  you could drive a truck through the space 
between their rebounds!!  (They also rehearsed 
right under our barracks windows, so it's a good 
thing they WERE so good!)

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 3:05 PM -0700 9/16/11, TXSTNR POP account wrote:
>At least you guys know singers who can read at 
>all.  When I took first semester sight singing 
>an North Texas, the worst readers in the class 
>were the singers.

Oh, we understand the problem; we just can't do 
anything about it by ourselves.  There are two 
causes:  (1) Music Education in America is 
catch-as-catch-can, with music ed students 
"exposed" to a number of approaches and 
encouraged to use whichever ones appeal to them 
rather than adopting a single approach and 
following through with it in a sequential and 
progressive TEACHING system.  Think about what 
math teaching would be if every year ignored what 
had been learned the year before!!!  That's why 
6th graders in Hungary can read music infinitely 
better than college Sophomores in the U.S.!!!

And (2), singers are permitted to get by with 
pretty voices and parts are pounded out for them 
on the piano until they finally hit those 
sightsinging classes at age 18 or 19, when nobody 
has bothered to teach them basic solfege skills. 
Or if they have REALLY pretty voices they go on 
to sing opera, where "voice coaches" continue to 
pound out the parts for them.

By rights we should require good sightreading as 
a prerequisite before we accepted any student as 
a college music major, but if we actually did 
that we wouldn't have any voice majors at all 
(except the smart ones, many of whom started 
taking piano at around the age of 7!!).

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word

[Christopher Smith]

I converted a whole cartload of existing EPS graphics (from Fin 2005) to PDF 
with Preview. Worked great!

I don't know the answer to the Word question. I hate the durned piece of 
petach! (Klingon for crap!)

Christopher


On Fri Sep 16, at FridaySep 16 10:58 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote:

> Hi Jef,
> 
> My suggestion is to not EPS from Finale. Instead, make a PDF, crop as needed, 
> and insert the PDF graphics into the Word file.
> 
> Or you could use a graphics program to convert the existing EPS files to PDF.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> - DJA
> -
> WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org
> 
> 
> 
> On 16 Sep 2011, at 10:25 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote:
> 
>> 
>> exporting EPS from finale i can view them correctly in graphics 
>> programmes but then when using them in word they appear as full black 
>> images.  tif (1200 ppi) functions fine.
>> 
>> i saved the same word file as PS, opened in distiller (set to convert 
>> to 1200 ppi) and the resulting PDF is only 150 ppi...?
>> 
>> anyone know why this might happen?
>> 
>> trying to get a PDF of the score and covers/notes ready for publisher...
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[TXSTNR POP account]

At least you guys know singers who can read at all.  When I took first semester 
sight singing an North Texas, the worst readers in the class were the singers.

On Sep 16, 2011, at 2:49 PM, David W. Fenton wrote:

> On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote:
> 
>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for
>> tenors, I simply find it impractical.
> 
> That makes no sense -- it is by far the most practical clef FOR THE 
> TENORS (i.e., the musicians for whom the music is written, that is, 
> the ones who have to PERFORM IT). It may not be "practical" for an 
> accompanist, but it's not written for the accompanist.
> 
>> News flash: We all have to deal
>> with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). 
>> Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be
>> comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5.  
> 
> While I would not argue that tenors shouldn't be able to read leger 
> lines, I WOULD argue that it's ludicrous to insist that more leger 
> lines than necessary be used.
> 
> Get used to it -- the clef is not going away, because it's the best 
> compromise for the range involved.
> 
> []
> 
>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: 
> 
> Free clue: treble clef 8 IS THE STANDARD.
> 
> You are the one who needs to get used to it.
> 
> -- 
> David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
> David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/
> 
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> 

Lon Price
lonpr...@txstnr.com
http://www.txstnr.com/




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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[David W. Fenton]

On 16 Sep 2011 at 11:18, Patrick Sheehan wrote:

> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for
> tenors, I simply find it impractical.

That makes no sense -- it is by far the most practical clef FOR THE 
TENORS (i.e., the musicians for whom the music is written, that is, 
the ones who have to PERFORM IT). It may not be "practical" for an 
accompanist, but it's not written for the accompanist.

>  News flash: We all have to deal
> with reading multiple ledger lines (pianists, flutists, violinists). 
> Don't complain about ledger lines; learn to read them and be
> comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines, only 5.  

While I would not argue that tenors shouldn't be able to read leger 
lines, I WOULD argue that it's ludicrous to insist that more leger 
lines than necessary be used.

Get used to it -- the clef is not going away, because it's the best 
compromise for the range involved.

[]

> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized: 

Free clue: treble clef 8 IS THE STANDARD.

You are the one who needs to get used to it.

-- 
David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com
David Fenton Associates   http://dfenton.com/DFA/

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[arabushka]

Good thing the auidence can't hear the cleffing...

ajr


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Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)

[Dean M. Estabrook]

Agree with John here ...  I just finished transcribing a Mendelssohn  
orchestral overture  for Wind Ensemble, and could not  have done it  
sans help from the Picc., esp. when dealing with the higher violin  
parts.  I am a Picc. fan when it comes to that situation ..

Dean

On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:38 AM, John Howell wrote:

> At 5:18 PM +0100 9/16/11, Steve Parker wrote:
>>
>> Gotta disagree about the piccolo... there are
>> not many instruments I can never imagine writing
>> for (unless paid of course)
>> but piccolo and bagpipes share the lead! ;-)
>
> Interesting statement, Steve.  I can't imagine
> not having piccolo available for concert band
> music, and it's been an orchestral instrument for
> about 250 years (although Beethoven didn't use it
> in a symphony until his 5th).  The earlier
> piccolo concertos--including the several by
> Vivaldi--were actually for sopranino recorder
> rather than small transverse flute.
>
> Of course like any strong spice, it needs to be
> used sparingly and in exactly the right places,
> but in those places it's the only thing that can
> do the job.  If you happen to remember Billy
> May's "Sorta Dixie" album, whoever played the
> piccolo double on it was a superb player, and the
> jazz piccolo solo(s) was played really elegantly.
>
> Don't judge the instrument by high school
> marching bands.  Our Community Band has two
> excellent piccolists, one a retired professional
> and the other an excellent semi-professional, and
> they both play in tune and with beautiful tone.
>
> Bagpipes?  Well, there's a place for them and
> their music, preferably not too close by!
>
> John
>
>
> -- 
> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> School of Performing Arts & Cinema
> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
>
> "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
> (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms
>
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The perfect drive..a diminishing sphere of white impaling the azure
heavens in a graceful ellipticheight and distance vying for
supremacy..compatriot's jowls lax, eyes huge, their raucous paeans
thinly veiling jealousy..one stroke justifying a capricious  
investment
in the titanium industry.

Dean M. Estabrook

http://sites.google.com/site/deanestabrook/


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Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir

[Raymond Horton]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 2:17 PM, John Howell  wrote:
> familiar with Piston.  But of course any
> first-semester orchestration course has to spend
> hours on the ranges and transpositions, while in
> my Vocal-Choral Arranging class I have the
> students actually ARRANGING short exercises from
> day one.

I am still appalled at people in music at advanced stages (including
one conductor at a very advanced stage) who think that tuba sounds an
octave lower than written.  It IS a bit confusing for orchestration
beginners, since contrabassoon and doublebass (the corresponding
contrabass instruments in woodwinds and strings) both sound 8ba, but
no one ever said life would be consistent.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com

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Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)

[Lawrence Yates]

As I have noted before, the tragedy of the bagpipe player and why he walks
lies in the fact that when you stop blowing a bagpipe, the noise continues -
the poor devils do not realise that they are themselves the founder of their
own malady.

Best wishes,

Lawrence

On 16 September 2011 20:26, Raymond Horton  wrote:

> Q. Why do bagpipers walk when they play?
> A. They're trying to get away from the noise.
>

-- 
Lawrenceyates.co.uk
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Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)

[Raymond Horton]

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:38 PM, John Howell  wrote:

> Bagpipes?  Well, there's a place for them and
> their music, preferably not too close by!
>
It's a classic:
Q. Why do bagpipers walk when they play?
A. They're trying to get away from the noise.


Raymond Horton (who has written for piccolo and for bagpipes, but not
at the same time)

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Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir

[David H. Bailey]

On 9/16/2011 2:17 PM, John Howell wrote:
[snip]> And I certainly agree about Andrew's book,
> although I made the mistake of buying it on disk
> and would MUCH rather have it sitting ready to
> pick up in my bookcase.

I value it so much, I bought it twice -- once in paper form and then as 
soon as it was released on disk, I bought that and moved it to my 
computer and now have it on my iPad for quick reference even when I'm 
not near my computer or office.


-- 
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Raymond Horton]

Absolutely, write what is clearest and most easily understood.  If
bass clef for your tenors is that, fine.

But saying "All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no
exception"  is another matter.

Interesting to see real examples of how jazz trombonists never
embraced clefs other than bass in solo transcriptions recently posted
on youtube.  All bass clef, frequently switching to 8va marks for
upper register.  The first example goes to bass clef plus 5 ledger
line, marked 8va!

http://youtu.be/pap8NHnArEA

http://youtu.be/t_L11SOaURo

http://youtu.be/rxxXRwTFc1c

One could easily make sweeping statements about what would be
preferable clef usage in these, or  indeed all first trombone parts in
commercial charts, but this is the tradition.  Put one of these in a
seemingly much more practical alto clef, or bass switching to treble
(like trombone parts in many newer serious works) and trouble will
ensue.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com

On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Dean M. Estabrook  wrote:
> I agree with you Raymond  we ought to be able to play what's
> written, but when I'm writing stuff  for any groups to which I have
> access,  I best take GREAT care about ranges, clefs,  etc.,,   or it
> just don't get read ...  good practice anyway ...
>
> Dean
>
> On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Raymond Horton wrote:
>
>> Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the
>> standards.  And,
>> if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major
>> publishers and
>> got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the
>> millions of
>> works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?
>>
>> Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
>> the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd
>> trombone
>> part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab
>> and G.
>>  For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches
>> to bass
>> clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win
>> (if you
>> include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in
>> every
>> case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
>> composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written
>> in bass
>> clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it
>> because it's
>> our job.
>>
>> Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and
>> arrangers can
>> write what ever they want, but if you write for established
>> publishers, you
>> write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever
>> clefs you
>> want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell
>> more than
>>  the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others
>> can start
>> complaining.
>>
>> Raymond Horton
>> Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
>> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
>> Composer, Arranger
>> VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
>> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what
>>> you've
>>> used and seen.
>>>
>>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef
>>> for tenors,
>>> I simply find it impractical.
>>> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
>>> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger
>>> lines; learn
>>> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has
>>> 10 lines,
>>> only 5.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a
>>> transposing
>>> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading
>>> treble clef
>>> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower,
>>> plus they
>>> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>>>
>>> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
>>> ledger
>>> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale,
>>> etc.), and
>>> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems
>>> for tenor
>>> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you
>>> are, it
>>> keeps
>>> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric
>>> for their
>>> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There
>>> are several
>>> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here
>>> until the
>>> apocalypse.
>>>
>>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:
>>> just a
>>> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up
>>> (soprano &
>>> tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano
>>> part as a
>>> reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more
>>> polyrhythmic
>>> and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it
>>> should be
>>

Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir

[John Howell]

At 6:35 AM -0400 9/16/11, David H. Bailey wrote:
>On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote:
>>  ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch!
>>
>
>Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as
>range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of
>Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which
>seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't
>rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an
>instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not.  Stiller's
>book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an
>instrument.

Rimsky's book definitely is of that type, and 
really amazing in trying to understand the late 
19th century orchestrator's mind.  It's what I'd 
call more of a "Stage Two" orchestration book, 
that goes well beyond just the ranges and 
transpositions (the mechanics of it) and into the 
actual use (the artistry of it).  I'm not that 
familiar with Piston.  But of course any 
first-semester orchestration course has to spend 
hours on the ranges and transpositions, while in 
my Vocal-Choral Arranging class I have the 
students actually ARRANGING short exercises from 
day one.

And I certainly agree about Andrew's book, 
although I made the mistake of buying it on disk 
and would MUCH rather have it sitting ready to 
pick up in my bookcase.

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)

[Steve Parker]

Of course as soon as I wrote I thought of examples in contradiction..
It does do a marvellous job in some concert band music.
I've heard some of Darcy's stuff and maybe his new stuff could persuade me 
otherwise..

Steve P.

On 16 Sep 2011, at 18:38, John Howell wrote:

> At 5:18 PM +0100 9/16/11, Steve Parker wrote:
>> 
>> Gotta disagree about the piccolo... there are 
>> not many instruments I can never imagine writing 
>> for (unless paid of course)
>> but piccolo and bagpipes share the lead! ;-)
> 
> Interesting statement, Steve.  I can't imagine 
> not having piccolo available for concert band 
> music, and it's been an orchestral instrument for 
> about 250 years (although Beethoven didn't use it 
> in a symphony until his 5th).  The earlier 
> piccolo concertos--including the several by 
> Vivaldi--were actually for sopranino recorder 
> rather than small transverse flute.
> 
> Of course like any strong spice, it needs to be 
> used sparingly and in exactly the right places, 
> but in those places it's the only thing that can 
> do the job.  If you happen to remember Billy 
> May's "Sorta Dixie" album, whoever played the 
> piccolo double on it was a superb player, and the 
> jazz piccolo solo(s) was played really elegantly.
> 
> Don't judge the instrument by high school 
> marching bands.  Our Community Band has two 
> excellent piccolists, one a retired professional 
> and the other an excellent semi-professional, and 
> they both play in tune and with beautiful tone.
> 
> Bagpipes?  Well, there's a place for them and 
> their music, preferably not too close by!
> 
> John
> 
> 
> -- 
> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> School of Performing Arts & Cinema
> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> 290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
> 
> "Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
> (Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms
> 
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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[John Howell]

At 1:31 PM -0400 9/16/11, Raymond Horton wrote:
>I want to clarify when I said some anthems from the 80s that were
>published with an open score with bass clef for tenors.  I said I
>remember them as being easy to read, or something like that.

Things get really interesting when we start 
talking about specific situations.  Here's one 
that's different yet.For 14 years I shared 
arranging duties with a colleague for the 
university show ensemble I directed.  Our 
approach to arranging and the WAY we arranged was 
different, and that made for a nice variety.  And 
we were both writing for a 22-voice cast (plus a 
12-piece showband behind them).

For my vocal charts I almost always used 2 
staves:  treble clef for the women and tenor 
G-clef for the men.  Why?  It simply fit the 
music better, kept most of it within the staff, 
and didn't run into the lyrics between the 
staves.  And when you're copying by hand with 
commercially-printed score paper you can't move 
the staves around!!!  Plus which in commercial 
vocal writing the "bass" voice is often not a 
bass line at all, but a low harmony part.  In 
fact you don't WANT your bass voice down where it 
conflicts with the string bass or bass guitar (or 
bass trombone or bari sax) in the sonic spectrum.

Paul, on the other hand, tended to use treble 
clef for ALL the voices, more often dividing them 
into "high" and "low" or into "high," "medium" 
and "low" rather than the more 
classically-oriented SATB.  It was simply because 
his own background was strongly in musical 
theater, where that's what is written almost all 
the time, and the octave intended by the treble 
clef is left somewhat up in the air or else 
indicated as "boys" or "girls."

And our singers never had a problem figuring out 
what we wanted, although there might indeed be a 
few questions during the first rehearsals of a 
new chart.

But neither one of us notated for the convenience 
of piano players, which is what this discussion 
is really about.  For them we provided a chord 
symbol line (or I did; Paul was our primary 
keyboardist and didn't need one for his own 
charts).  And our 2nd keyboardists simply learned 
to comp from chord symbols, or else already knew 
how when we accepted them.

Every situation is different.  But complaining 
about notation that is absolutely standard and 
has been for years or centuries is sort of 
counterproductive.

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)

[John Howell]

At 5:18 PM +0100 9/16/11, Steve Parker wrote:
>
>Gotta disagree about the piccolo... there are 
>not many instruments I can never imagine writing 
>for (unless paid of course)
>but piccolo and bagpipes share the lead! ;-)

Interesting statement, Steve.  I can't imagine 
not having piccolo available for concert band 
music, and it's been an orchestral instrument for 
about 250 years (although Beethoven didn't use it 
in a symphony until his 5th).  The earlier 
piccolo concertos--including the several by 
Vivaldi--were actually for sopranino recorder 
rather than small transverse flute.

Of course like any strong spice, it needs to be 
used sparingly and in exactly the right places, 
but in those places it's the only thing that can 
do the job.  If you happen to remember Billy 
May's "Sorta Dixie" album, whoever played the 
piccolo double on it was a superb player, and the 
jazz piccolo solo(s) was played really elegantly.

Don't judge the instrument by high school 
marching bands.  Our Community Band has two 
excellent piccolists, one a retired professional 
and the other an excellent semi-professional, and 
they both play in tune and with beautiful tone.

Bagpipes?  Well, there's a place for them and 
their music, preferably not too close by!

John


-- 
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
School of Performing Arts & Cinema
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
290 College Ave., Blacksburg, Virginia 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411  Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html

"Machen Sie es, wie Sie wollen, machen Sie es nur schön."
(Do it as you like, just make it beautiful!)  --Johannes Brahms

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Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Raymond Horton]

I want to clarify when I said some anthems from the 80s that were
published with an open score with bass clef for tenors.  I said I
remember them as being easy to read, or something like that.

1) I am a terrible pianist.  I have certainly had plenty of years
experience hearing a conventional choral score in my head, but playing
it with my own two stupid hands (it IS my hands' fault, right?) is
another story.  These pieces were easier for me to play  - but see
point two for more reasons.

2) These pieces were easy and mellow, and had particularly low tenor
parts - like fourth line F up to middle C (bass clef, remember) - with
a lot of Gs on C and G chords (man, that sounds boring - but they were
pretty good). Which was good for my church choir at the time, which
had a couple of baritones shoring up the tenor section.  Would not be
good for my current choir, which has a good tenor section made up of
real tenors and a couple of women who never came to terms with their
head voice.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com



On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Steve Parker  wrote:
> With the tenor range from (Bb) C to A+ the treble 8 clef is perfect.
> It is not being treated as a transposing instrument - it is a different clef 
> to a treble clef.
> Using bass clef where the tenor vocal range begins in the second space is 
> difficult to justify rationally.
>
> As for piano playing, IMHO accompanists should be able to play vocal parts in 
> any combination of clefs, string quartets, orchestral scores including 
> transpositions and octave displacements.
> These things just take a bit of practice but should be toolbox stuff.
>
> Steve P.
>
> On 16 Sep 2011, at 17:55, Raymond Horton wrote:
>
>> Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards.  And,
>> if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and
>> got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of
>> works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?
>>
>> Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
>> the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd trombone
>> part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G.
>> For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass
>> clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you
>> include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every
>> case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
>> composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass
>> clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's
>> our job.
>>
>> Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and arrangers can
>> write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you
>> write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you
>> want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell more than
>> the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start
>> complaining.
>>
>> Raymond Horton
>> Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
>> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
>> Composer, Arranger
>> VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
>> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've
>>> used and seen.
>>>
>>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors,
>>> I simply find it impractical.
>>> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
>>> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger lines; learn
>>> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines,
>>> only 5.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
>>> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
>>> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
>>> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>>>
>>> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
>>> ledger
>>> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and
>>> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor
>>> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you are, it
>>> keeps
>>> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their
>>> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There are several
>>> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the
>>> apocalypse.
>>>
>>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:  just a
>>> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano

Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Dean M. Estabrook]

I agree with you Raymond  we ought to be able to play what's  
written, but when I'm writing stuff  for any groups to which I have  
access,  I best take GREAT care about ranges, clefs,  etc.,,   or it  
just don't get read ...  good practice anyway ...

Dean

On Sep 16, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Raymond Horton wrote:

> Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the  
> standards.  And,
> if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major  
> publishers and
> got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the  
> millions of
> works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?
>
> Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
> the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd  
> trombone
> part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab  
> and G.
>  For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches  
> to bass
> clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win  
> (if you
> include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in  
> every
> case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
> composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written  
> in bass
> clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it  
> because it's
> our job.
>
> Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and  
> arrangers can
> write what ever they want, but if you write for established  
> publishers, you
> write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever  
> clefs you
> want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell  
> more than
>  the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others  
> can start
> complaining.
>
> Raymond Horton
> Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
> Composer, Arranger
> VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what  
>> you've
>> used and seen.
>>
>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef  
>> for tenors,
>> I simply find it impractical.
>> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
>> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger  
>> lines; learn
>> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has  
>> 10 lines,
>> only 5.
>>
>>
>>
>> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a  
>> transposing
>> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading  
>> treble clef
>> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower,  
>> plus they
>> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>>
>> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
>> ledger
>> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale,  
>> etc.), and
>> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems  
>> for tenor
>> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you  
>> are, it
>> keeps
>> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric  
>> for their
>> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There  
>> are several
>> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here  
>> until the
>> apocalypse.
>>
>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:   
>> just a
>> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up  
>> (soprano &
>> tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano  
>> part as a
>> reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more  
>> polyrhythmic
>> and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it  
>> should be
>> printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course).   
>> Think
>> about
>> it:  Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to  
>> F4, G4,
>> A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven.  I  
>> think
>> that's doable.
>>
>>
>>
>> Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals,  
>> but then
>> some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the  
>> clutch in the
>> middle, and the brake on the right.  Imagine the brain-crash you'd  
>> have in
>> trying to drive that car.  That's how I feel with the damn Treble8  
>> clef.
>> It's not a matter of "getting used to it" as someone had stated.   
>> I AM used
>> to it, I just hate it.
>>
>>
>> All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no  
>> exception.  This
>> tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at  
>> first sight
>> (and eventually, all "sights.").  If the tenor part ventures high,  
>> and
>> stays
>> there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more  
>> cognizant in
>> their
>> layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines.  They have  
>> ultimate control
>> over that, and it's si

Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Steve Parker]

With the tenor range from (Bb) C to A+ the treble 8 clef is perfect.
It is not being treated as a transposing instrument - it is a different clef to 
a treble clef.
Using bass clef where the tenor vocal range begins in the second space is 
difficult to justify rationally.

As for piano playing, IMHO accompanists should be able to play vocal parts in 
any combination of clefs, string quartets, orchestral scores including 
transpositions and octave displacements.
These things just take a bit of practice but should be toolbox stuff.

Steve P.

On 16 Sep 2011, at 17:55, Raymond Horton wrote:

> Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards.  And,
> if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and
> got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of
> works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?
> 
> Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
> the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd trombone
> part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G.
> For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass
> clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you
> include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every
> case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
> composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass
> clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's
> our job.
> 
> Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and arrangers can
> write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you
> write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you
> want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell more than
> the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start
> complaining.
> 
> Raymond Horton
> Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
> Composer, Arranger
> VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
> patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've
>> used and seen.
>> 
>> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors,
>> I simply find it impractical.
>> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
>> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger lines; learn
>> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines,
>> only 5.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
>> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
>> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
>> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>> 
>> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
>> ledger
>> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and
>> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor
>> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you are, it
>> keeps
>> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their
>> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There are several
>> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the
>> apocalypse.
>> 
>> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:  just a
>> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano &
>> tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a
>> reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more polyrhythmic
>> and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be
>> printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course).  Think
>> about
>> it:  Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4,
>> A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven.  I think
>> that's doable.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then
>> some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the
>> middle, and the brake on the right.  Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in
>> trying to drive that car.  That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef.
>> It's not a matter of "getting used to it" as someone had stated.  I AM used
>> to it, I just hate it.
>> 
>> 
>> All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception.  This
>> tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight
>> (and eventually, all "sights.").  If the tenor part ventures high, and
>> stays
>> there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in
>> their
>> layout in using the ba

Re: [Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Raymond Horton]

Well, it IS standardized, Patrick - you just don't like the standards.  And,
if you circulated your petitions, sent them to all the major publishers and
got them to change - just who is going to re-engrave all of the millions of
works that have been notated already, in clefs you don't like?

Go back to my example of trombonists for a second.  I mentioned
the Shostakovitch 5th symphony, I believe.  As I recall, the 2nd trombone
part is in alto clef throughout, with leger lines below to low Ab and G.
 For ONE WHOLE NOTE low F in the first movement, the part switches to bass
clef!  Ridiculous!  Take a poll on that one and bass clef would win (if you
include amateur trombonists in your poll, alto clef would lose in every
case, no matter what the range).   The next week we may play the same
composers 10th, in which the parts are quite high and all written in bass
clef - absurd!   But it's part of being a musician - we read it because it's
our job.

Musicians have to read the music that is there.  Composers and arrangers can
write what ever they want, but if you write for established publishers, you
write to their standards.  If you publish yourself - use whatever clefs you
want, sell to whomever buys, have a grand old time.   If you sell more than
 the big publishers, then maybe they will change, and then others can start
complaining.

Raymond Horton
Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra
Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) UMC
Composer, Arranger
VISIT US AT rayhortonmusic.com


On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:18 PM, Patrick Sheehan <
patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've
> used and seen.
>
> To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors,
> I simply find it impractical.
> News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
> (pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger lines; learn
> to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines,
> only 5.
>
>
>
> Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
> instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
> notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
> have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!
>
> Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of
> ledger
> lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and
> stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor
> and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you are, it
> keeps
> each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their
> own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There are several
> other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the
> apocalypse.
>
> It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:  just a
> two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano &
> tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a
> reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more polyrhythmic
> and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be
> printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course).  Think
> about
> it:  Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4,
> A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven.  I think
> that's doable.
>
>
>
> Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then
> some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the
> middle, and the brake on the right.  Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in
> trying to drive that car.  That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef.
> It's not a matter of "getting used to it" as someone had stated.  I AM used
> to it, I just hate it.
>
>
> All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception.  This
> tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight
> (and eventually, all "sights.").  If the tenor part ventures high, and
> stays
> there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in
> their
> layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines.  They have ultimate control
> over that, and it's simply done (being a copyist and in-demand arranger for
> over 10 years).  The fact is: I've taken a poll with all male vocalists and
> asked them what they would prefer to always see, and they prefer bass clef;
> they say that treble is confusing and it messes with their eye's ear.  The
> same goes for adults.  I think that where things are getting lost and
> mis-practiced are with publishers, which is why I don't go through
> publishers.  Their editors wreak havoc on an original layout / work.  It's
> a
> harsh truth, but it's the truth nonetheless.
>
>
>
>
>
> Patrick J. M. Sheehan
> Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy
>
> P. 

Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Chuck,

This is actually an excellent point -- my own take on this would be that 
bigband flute parts within the staff often sound better on alto flute, whereas 
flute parts above the staff often sound better on piccolo (especially when 
doubling lead tpt, either at pitch or 8va).

Good piccolo doublers are still a bit rare in jazz, though. I'm lucky that 
Erica von Kleist really enjoys the piccolo and plays quite a lot of it, 
including bringing it to jam sessions, etc. She plays great flute too, but 
hates soloing on it, and I can see why -- it's much easier to get a satisfying 
jazz sound on piccolo. I didn't write any piccolo parts for her on the last 
record because I hadn't really started exploring that possibility, but my 
current writing has piccolo all over the place.

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org



On 16 Sep 2011, at 10:37 AM, Chuck Israels wrote:

>   My old friend and mentor, the late John Garvey, used to say that much of 
> what is written for flute in jazz bands would sound better on the piccolo, 
> and he had a good point.  


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[Finale] Tenor-singers Clefs Discussion wrapup

[Patrick Sheehan]

Thank you all for the historical practices and experience on what you've
used and seen.

To clarify, I do not have a problem in reading the Treble8 clef for tenors,
I simply find it impractical.  
News flash: We all have to deal with reading multiple ledger lines
(pianists, flutists, violinists).  Don't complain about ledger lines; learn
to read them and be comfortable!  We don't have a staff that has 10 lines,
only 5.  

 

Someone mentioned that the Treble8 clef for tenors much like a transposing
instrument.  Correct!  In this sense, the tenors are reading treble clef
notes but what's coming out of their throat is an octave lower, plus they
have to think that way too.  What sense does that make?!  

Some people have said the bass clef for tenors is not used because of ledger
lines.  Well, what fixes that?  Scrupulous layout (in Finale, etc.), and
stems in both directions.  I'm also tired of seeing joined stems for tenor
and bass parts (if the rhythm is the same).  No matter who you are, it keeps
each voice part on track if they can focus on notehead-stem-lyric for their
own part.  But, I could go on and on about practicality.  There are several
other notational concepts that I despise, but I'd keep you here until the
apocalypse. 

It boils down to this - I just wish everything was standardized:  just a
two-stave hymnbook-style choral score with constant stems up (soprano &
tenor) and stems down (alto and bass), with or without the piano part as a
reduction (if its an a cappella work).  If the parts are more polyrhythmic
and need to be separated on their own individual staves, then it should be
printed that way (with tenors printed in bass clef, of course).  Think about
it:  Most tenor parts (of TODAY, not centuries ago), only go up to F4, G4,
A4 at the most, so that's only three ledger lines, not seven.  I think
that's doable.

 

Imagine if cars were made where some had standard the foot pedals, but then
some other types of cars had the accelerator on the left, the clutch in the
middle, and the brake on the right.  Imagine the brain-crash you'd have in
trying to drive that car.  That's how I feel with the damn Treble8 clef.
It's not a matter of "getting used to it" as someone had stated.  I AM used
to it, I just hate it. 


All male voice parts should be written in bass clef, no exception.  This
tells you the differentiation between female and male parts at first sight
(and eventually, all "sights.").  If the tenor part ventures high, and stays
there for awhile, then publishers should be a little more cognizant in their
layout in using the bass clef and ledger lines.  They have ultimate control
over that, and it's simply done (being a copyist and in-demand arranger for
over 10 years).  The fact is: I've taken a poll with all male vocalists and
asked them what they would prefer to always see, and they prefer bass clef;
they say that treble is confusing and it messes with their eye's ear.  The
same goes for adults.  I think that where things are getting lost and
mis-practiced are with publishers, which is why I don't go through
publishers.  Their editors wreak havoc on an original layout / work.  It's a
harsh truth, but it's the truth nonetheless.  

 

 

Patrick J. M. Sheehan
Music Director, Instructor: Woodlawn Arts Academy

P. S. Music

  patricksheehanmu...@gmail.com

 

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Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)

[Steve Parker]

I'll place my order..

There is a ton of insight into compositional practice that is widely applicable 
(to any genre) and elegantly written.
Maybe it could be converted to an iPad app? I have no idea how these things 
work..

Gotta disagree about the piccolo... there are not many instruments I can never 
imagine writing for (unless paid of course)
but piccolo and bagpipes share the lead! ;-)

Steve P.

On 16 Sep 2011, at 15:37, Chuck Israels wrote:

> Dear Steve,
> 
> Thanks for the plug.  Gary will soon remove all but some teaser chapters and 
> examples from his website - because the book has just been released by Hal 
> Leonard (with the scrolling playback examples on a CD).  My editor at HL was 
> responsive and cooperative (and helpful in the usual ways for which one would 
> need an editor), so I think the book turned out well.  There is no 
> comprehensive study of orchestration possibilities in the book, and I regret 
> ignoring the possibilities of the piccolo, since we are discussing octave 
> transpositions.  My old friend and mentor, the late John Garvey, used to say 
> that much of what is written for flute in jazz bands would sound better on 
> the piccolo, and he had a good point.  In any case, I am glad this work - 
> encouraged, even insisted upon, by Gary Garritan, as well as invested in by 
> him (he paid for all the work to make the playback examples sound reasonably 
> musical and for all the Flash files for the scrolling score examples), is 
> finally out.  The book seems like a perfect fit as an iPad app/eBook, except 
> that the scrolling scores are done in Adobe Flash, and Apple does not accept 
> Flash files.  That's a disappointment!
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> On Sep 16, 2011, at 4:04 AM, Steve Parker wrote:
> 
>> There is a great little book, 'Orchestral Technique' by Gordon Jacob too.
>> 
>> Rimsky Korsakov is available online:
>> http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=34
>> 
>> and a Jazz arranging course by (our own!) wonderful Chuck Israels:
>> http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=41
>> 
>> Steve P.
>> 
>> On 16 Sep 2011, at 11:35, David H. Bailey wrote:
>> 
>>> On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote:
 ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch!
 
>>> 
>>> Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as 
>>> range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of 
>>> Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which 
>>> seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't 
>>> rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an 
>>> instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not.  Stiller's 
>>> book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an 
>>> instrument.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> David H. Bailey
>>> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>>> ___
>>> Finale mailing list
>>> Finale@shsu.edu
>>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>> 
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu
>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> Chuck Israels
> 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807
> Portland, OR 97209-316
> 
> land line: (971) 255-1167
> cell phone: (360) 201-3434
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


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Re: [Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word

[Richard Yates]

I always print to Adobe pdf printer driver (include fonts), open in Acrobat,
crop, save as EPS, import into Word. It shows as rough tif preview graphic
on screen but prints fine.

> -Original Message-
> From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf
Of
> SN jef chippewa
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 7:26 AM
> To: finale@shsu.edu
> Subject: [Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word
> 
> 
> exporting EPS from finale i can view them correctly in graphics programmes
but
> then when using them in word they appear as full black images.  tif (1200
ppi)
> functions fine.
> 
> i saved the same word file as PS, opened in distiller (set to convert to
1200 ppi)
> and the resulting PDF is only 150 ppi...?
> 
> anyone know why this might happen?
> 
> trying to get a PDF of the score and covers/notes ready for publisher...
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

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Re: [Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word

[Darcy James Argue]

Hi Jef,

My suggestion is to not EPS from Finale. Instead, make a PDF, crop as needed, 
and insert the PDF graphics into the Word file.

Or you could use a graphics program to convert the existing EPS files to PDF.

Cheers,

- DJA
-
WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org



On 16 Sep 2011, at 10:25 AM, SN jef chippewa wrote:

> 
> exporting EPS from finale i can view them correctly in graphics 
> programmes but then when using them in word they appear as full black 
> images.  tif (1200 ppi) functions fine.
> 
> i saved the same word file as PS, opened in distiller (set to convert 
> to 1200 ppi) and the resulting PDF is only 150 ppi...?
> 
> anyone know why this might happen?
> 
> trying to get a PDF of the score and covers/notes ready for publisher...
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale


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Re: [Finale] orchestration, clefs, etc. (was Clefs for Tenors in Choir)

[Chuck Israels]

Dear Steve,

Thanks for the plug.  Gary will soon remove all but some teaser chapters and 
examples from his website - because the book has just been released by Hal 
Leonard (with the scrolling playback examples on a CD).  My editor at HL was 
responsive and cooperative (and helpful in the usual ways for which one would 
need an editor), so I think the book turned out well.  There is no 
comprehensive study of orchestration possibilities in the book, and I regret 
ignoring the possibilities of the piccolo, since we are discussing octave 
transpositions.  My old friend and mentor, the late John Garvey, used to say 
that much of what is written for flute in jazz bands would sound better on the 
piccolo, and he had a good point.  In any case, I am glad this work - 
encouraged, even insisted upon, by Gary Garritan, as well as invested in by him 
(he paid for all the work to make the playback examples sound reasonably 
musical and for all the Flash files for the scrolling score examples), is 
finally out.  The book seems like a perfect fit as an iPad app/eBook, except 
that the scrolling scores are done in Adobe Flash, and Apple does not accept 
Flash files.  That's a disappointment!

Chuck


On Sep 16, 2011, at 4:04 AM, Steve Parker wrote:

> There is a great little book, 'Orchestral Technique' by Gordon Jacob too.
> 
> Rimsky Korsakov is available online:
> http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=34
> 
> and a Jazz arranging course by (our own!) wonderful Chuck Israels:
> http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=41
> 
> Steve P.
> 
> On 16 Sep 2011, at 11:35, David H. Bailey wrote:
> 
>> On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote:
>>> ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch!
>>> 
>> 
>> Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as 
>> range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of 
>> Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which 
>> seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't 
>> rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an 
>> instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not.  Stiller's 
>> book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an 
>> instrument.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> David H. Bailey
>> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
>> ___
>> Finale mailing list
>> Finale@shsu.edu
>> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> 
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

Chuck Israels
1310 NW Naito Parkway #807
Portland, OR 97209-316

land line: (971) 255-1167
cell phone: (360) 201-3434




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[Finale] EPS export from F2010 is black in MS word

[SN jef chippewa]

exporting EPS from finale i can view them correctly in graphics 
programmes but then when using them in word they appear as full black 
images.  tif (1200 ppi) functions fine.

i saved the same word file as PS, opened in distiller (set to convert 
to 1200 ppi) and the resulting PDF is only 150 ppi...?

anyone know why this might happen?

trying to get a PDF of the score and covers/notes ready for publisher...

___
Finale mailing list
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Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir

[Steve Parker]

There is a great little book, 'Orchestral Technique' by Gordon Jacob too.

Rimsky Korsakov is available online:
http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=34

and a Jazz arranging course by (our own!) wonderful Chuck Israels:
http://www.garritan.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=41

Steve P.

On 16 Sep 2011, at 11:35, David H. Bailey wrote:

> On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote:
>> ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch!
>> 
> 
> Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as 
> range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of 
> Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which 
> seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't 
> rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an 
> instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not.  Stiller's 
> book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an 
> instrument.
> 
> 
> -- 
> David H. Bailey
> dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale

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Re: [Finale] Clefs for Tenors in Choir

[David H. Bailey]

On 9/16/2011 12:27 AM, arabus...@austin.rr.com wrote:
> ...although the books by Piston and Rimsky-Korsakov'll do in a pinch!
>

Actually these days I find that for notational information as well as 
range information and playing techniques, Andrew Stiller's Handbook of 
Instrumentation to be much better than any books on orchestration, which 
seem to discuss which instruments work well together and which don't 
rather than discussing the technical details such as whether an 
instrument is notated with an octave displacement or not.  Stiller's 
book is my go-to reference when I need specific information about an 
instrument.


-- 
David H. Bailey
dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com
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