Re: [FRIAM] Can current AI beat humans at doing science?

[Marcus Daniels]

What do you mean?  It will be the great equalizer.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 12:12 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [FRIAM] Can current AI beat humans at doing science?

A year or so ago, Deepmind's AlphGo defeated the then world Go-champion Lee 
Sedol at a time when leading Ai researchers predicted it will be at least 10 
years before AI can reach that level. But the valid question then was - why so 
excited? It's just a game. There is an interesting documentary on youtube about 
this at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXuK6gekU1Y

What's happening now is that AI makes scientific discoveries beyond human 
ability.

Is anybody worried where it will end?

I quote from https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03819-2
Highly accurate protein structure prediction with AlphaFold
Proteins are essential to life, and understanding their structure can 
facilitate a mechanistic understanding of their function. Through an enormous 
experimental effort1–4, the structures of around 100,000 unique proteins have 
been determined5, but this represents a small fraction of the billions of known 
protein sequences6,7. Structural coverage is bottlenecked by the months to 
years of painstaking effort required to determine a single protein structure. 
Accurate computational approaches are needed to address this gap and to enable 
large-scale structural bioinformatics. Predicting the 3-D structure that a 
protein will adopt based solely on its amino acid sequence, the structure 
prediction component of the ‘protein folding problem’8, has been an important 
open research problem for more than 50 years9. Despite recent progress10–14, 
existing methods fall far short of atomic accuracy, especially when no 
homologous structure is available. Here we provide the first computational 
method that can regularly predict protein structures with atomic accuracy even 
where no similar structure is known. We validated an entirely redesigned 
version of our neural network-based model, AlphaFold, in the challenging 14th 
Critical Assessment of protein Structure Prediction (CASP14)15, demonstrating 
accuracy competitive with experiment in a majority of cases and greatly 
outperforming other methods. Underpinning the latest version of AlphaFold is a 
novel machine learning approach that incorporates physical and biological 
knowledge about protein structure, leveraging multi-sequence alignments, into 
the design of the deep learning algorithm.




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Re: [FRIAM] ???

[Marcus Daniels]

As with sex and dating, isn’t the obvious solution in these COVID times the 
online shrink?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 10:18 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ???

Gosh, Steve.  I could use a boomer-shrink.  Well, I actually need a Silent 
Shrink.  I will take your rec, off  line if you like.

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 10:59 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ???


Gil -

Same here...   I don't have any recommendations.   I do have experience with 
two therapists who I had a good experience with myself but they are not 
psychDocs and more tuned to my boomer self I think.

I'll ping you offline also.

- Steve
On 7/30/21 8:40 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
?


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Re: [FRIAM] shopping for a new psychiatrist

[Marcus Daniels]

I wonder how a natural language processing code would diagram that.

On Jul 30, 2021, at 3:01 PM, Jon Zingale  wrote:



Gil,


Fuck.

"fucking bag of dicks" is one of my favorite phrases. Thanks for it.


Cheers,

Jon

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Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

[Marcus Daniels]

How is a blankface different from authoritarian? 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 8:45 AM
To: FriAM 
Subject: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

Given some of the conversations I've had with some of y'all about bureaucracy 
as technology, I thought this might provide you with some dopaminergic 
confirmation:

https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5675
> What exactly is a blankface? He or she is often a mid-level bureaucrat, but 
> not every bureaucrat is a blankface, and not every blankface is a bureaucrat. 
> A blankface is anyone who enjoys wielding the power entrusted in them to make 
> others miserable by acting like a cog in a broken machine, rather than like a 
> human being with courage, judgment, and responsibility for their actions. A 
> blankface meets every appeal to facts, logic, and plain compassion with the 
> same repetition of rules and regulations and the same blank stare—a blank 
> stare that, more often than not, conceals a contemptuous smile.

Personally, I feel the same way about "deadpan" humor. Comedic Blankfaces may 
well be hiding a contemptuous smile. *Or* ... or or or, they're more likely 
hiding a deep and complex inner life that only finds expression when painfully 
extruded through tiny little pin-hole filters forced upon them by modern 
society. Blankface humor is the *best* type of humor. And it, at least in my 
experience, often helps me find humor where none was intended ... a bit like 
Inspector Clouseau, authentically trying to do a good job, but fscking it up 
royally. I know I cite Poe's Law a lot. But it's *because* the holographic 
principle does not apply to biological organisms that apophenia can be a source 
of creative insight.

So, contra Aaronson, Blankfaces are fscking dope. It's the way we *see* and 
think about the Blankfaces that's the problem. To quote my dad again, "If you 
are bored, then you are boring."

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Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

[Marcus Daniels]

The blankfaces I have run into are cogs, they aren’t trying to regularize their 
world, they are just happy it has been regularized for them.When I'm 
stressed on my work, I go water the plants.   It is a repetitive motion and 
easy, and easy is nice sometimes.   My take is that the blankfaces like that 
kind of cognitive easy.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:17 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

My fellow Blakkfaces like Ms. Umbridge do not attempt to regularize the entire 
world according to their doctrine. They are more like feudal lords, attempting 
to regularize their small fiefdom. Further, most of them only regularize a 
subspace of all the possible behaviors they might try to control ... like your 
DMV provider telling you that you don't *have* to fill out the form at all! You 
just can't fill it out *that* way and expect me to stamp it.

In many ways, Blankfaces are anti-authoritarian. "Choose your battles." By 
limiting one's freedom in dimensions X..Y, you have more energy to exercise 
your freedom in dimensions P..Q.

For example, I'm quite happy that I don't have to spend very much time 
defending my property from thieves and murderers. That frees me up to spend my 
time arguing on the internet.

On 8/5/21 9:08 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> How is a blankface different from authoritarian? 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 8:45 AM
> To: FriAM 
> Subject: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
> 
> Given some of the conversations I've had with some of y'all about bureaucracy 
> as technology, I thought this might provide you with some dopaminergic 
> confirmation:
> 
> https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5675
>> What exactly is a blankface? He or she is often a mid-level bureaucrat, but 
>> not every bureaucrat is a blankface, and not every blankface is a 
>> bureaucrat. A blankface is anyone who enjoys wielding the power entrusted in 
>> them to make others miserable by acting like a cog in a broken machine, 
>> rather than like a human being with courage, judgment, and responsibility 
>> for their actions. A blankface meets every appeal to facts, logic, and plain 
>> compassion with the same repetition of rules and regulations and the same 
>> blank stare—a blank stare that, more often than not, conceals a contemptuous 
>> smile.
> 
> Personally, I feel the same way about "deadpan" humor. Comedic Blankfaces may 
> well be hiding a contemptuous smile. *Or* ... or or or, they're more likely 
> hiding a deep and complex inner life that only finds expression when 
> painfully extruded through tiny little pin-hole filters forced upon them by 
> modern society. Blankface humor is the *best* type of humor. And it, at least 
> in my experience, often helps me find humor where none was intended ... a bit 
> like Inspector Clouseau, authentically trying to do a good job, but fscking 
> it up royally. I know I cite Poe's Law a lot. But it's *because* the 
> holographic principle does not apply to biological organisms that apophenia 
> can be a source of creative insight.
> 
> So, contra Aaronson, Blankfaces are fscking dope. It's the way we *see* and 
> think about the Blankfaces that's the problem. To quote my dad again, "If you 
> are bored, then you are boring."
> 
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

[Marcus Daniels]

The problem with the blankfaces is that they make it very hard to revise bad 
decisions.   They take territory to make their lives easier and to increase 
their power base, but when presented with the stupidity of the situation, they 
simply don't care.   They have no inherent disgust for suboptimality.  They 
would have to backtrack and revise their strategy and that would be 
inconvenient.   

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:29 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

I agree. When you get some quantum computing dork all up in your face 
complaining about the rules we all have to follow, it places an unsolicited 
cognitive load upon everyone in the surrounding region. Often, the best 
response to such narcissists is to simply stare at them and hand them another 
copy of the rules.

Nick raises a good counter, though. Because behaviorism is wrong, the rules are 
*never* clear. So, there does need to be some wiggle room for rule discovery. 
Trucks are treated differently by some states' DMVs because they're mostly 
stupid and wasteful and we truck drivers need to be punished just a little bit 
for owning them. So, you fill out your form wrong. The Blankface tells you to 
try again. So you try again. If you have to wait in the 3 hour line more than 
once, it's either an optimization or a selection pressure to learn the 
interface and get good at following the rules.

On 8/5/21 9:20 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> The blankfaces I have run into are cogs, they aren’t trying to regularize 
> their world, they are just happy it has been regularized for them.When 
> I'm stressed on my work, I go water the plants.   It is a repetitive motion 
> and easy, and easy is nice sometimes.   My take is that the blankfaces like 
> that kind of cognitive easy.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:17 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
> 
> My fellow Blakkfaces like Ms. Umbridge do not attempt to regularize the 
> entire world according to their doctrine. They are more like feudal lords, 
> attempting to regularize their small fiefdom. Further, most of them only 
> regularize a subspace of all the possible behaviors they might try to control 
> ... like your DMV provider telling you that you don't *have* to fill out the 
> form at all! You just can't fill it out *that* way and expect me to stamp it.
> 
> In many ways, Blankfaces are anti-authoritarian. "Choose your battles." By 
> limiting one's freedom in dimensions X..Y, you have more energy to exercise 
> your freedom in dimensions P..Q.
> 
> For example, I'm quite happy that I don't have to spend very much time 
> defending my property from thieves and murderers. That frees me up to spend 
> my time arguing on the internet.
> 
> On 8/5/21 9:08 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> How is a blankface different from authoritarian? 
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 8:45 AM
>> To: FriAM 
>> Subject: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
>>
>> Given some of the conversations I've had with some of y'all about 
>> bureaucracy as technology, I thought this might provide you with some 
>> dopaminergic confirmation:
>>
>> https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5675
>>> What exactly is a blankface? He or she is often a mid-level bureaucrat, but 
>>> not every bureaucrat is a blankface, and not every blankface is a 
>>> bureaucrat. A blankface is anyone who enjoys wielding the power entrusted 
>>> in them to make others miserable by acting like a cog in a broken machine, 
>>> rather than like a human being with courage, judgment, and responsibility 
>>> for their actions. A blankface meets every appeal to facts, logic, and 
>>> plain compassion with the same repetition of rules and regulations and the 
>>> same blank stare—a blank stare that, more often than not, conceals a 
>>> contemptuous smile.
>>
>> Personally, I feel the same way about "deadpan" humor. Comedic Blankfaces 
>> may well be hiding a contemptuous smile. *Or* ... or or or, they're more 
>> likely hiding a deep and complex inner life that only finds expression when 
>> painfully extruded through tiny little pin-hole filters forced upon them by 
>> modern society. Blankface humor is the *best* type of humor. And it, at 
>> least in my experience, often helps me find humor where none was intended 
>> ... a bit like Inspector Clouseau, authentically trying to do a good job, 
>> but fscking it up royally. I kno

Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

[Marcus Daniels]

Yes, I think the proposal was to follow that metaphor to its conclusion with 
regard to the Eloi's true value.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:44 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

Nah. That's a syntax error on your part. The Blankfaces lack any ability to 
restructure the technology. They're Eloi, not Morlocks. What you can do, 
though, is learn the language well enough to provide workarounds to whatever 
peculiar structures they have in place. And you can do it all without assuming 
there's nothing behind their blank face. In fact, it's way easier to hack their 
system if you remember there's an entire inner universe behind that blank face.


On 8/5/21 9:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> The problem with the blankfaces is that they make it very hard to revise bad 
> decisions.   They take territory to make their lives easier and to increase 
> their power base, but when presented with the stupidity of the situation, 
> they simply don't care.   They have no inherent disgust for suboptimality.  
> They would have to backtrack and revise their strategy and that would be 
> inconvenient.   
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:29 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
> 
> I agree. When you get some quantum computing dork all up in your face 
> complaining about the rules we all have to follow, it places an unsolicited 
> cognitive load upon everyone in the surrounding region. Often, the best 
> response to such narcissists is to simply stare at them and hand them another 
> copy of the rules.
> 
> Nick raises a good counter, though. Because behaviorism is wrong, the rules 
> are *never* clear. So, there does need to be some wiggle room for rule 
> discovery. Trucks are treated differently by some states' DMVs because 
> they're mostly stupid and wasteful and we truck drivers need to be punished 
> just a little bit for owning them. So, you fill out your form wrong. The 
> Blankface tells you to try again. So you try again. If you have to wait in 
> the 3 hour line more than once, it's either an optimization or a selection 
> pressure to learn the interface and get good at following the rules.
> 
> On 8/5/21 9:20 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> The blankfaces I have run into are cogs, they aren’t trying to regularize 
>> their world, they are just happy it has been regularized for them.When 
>> I'm stressed on my work, I go water the plants.   It is a repetitive motion 
>> and easy, and easy is nice sometimes.   My take is that the blankfaces like 
>> that kind of cognitive easy.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:17 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
>>
>> My fellow Blakkfaces like Ms. Umbridge do not attempt to regularize the 
>> entire world according to their doctrine. They are more like feudal lords, 
>> attempting to regularize their small fiefdom. Further, most of them only 
>> regularize a subspace of all the possible behaviors they might try to 
>> control ... like your DMV provider telling you that you don't *have* to fill 
>> out the form at all! You just can't fill it out *that* way and expect me to 
>> stamp it.
>>
>> In many ways, Blankfaces are anti-authoritarian. "Choose your battles." By 
>> limiting one's freedom in dimensions X..Y, you have more energy to exercise 
>> your freedom in dimensions P..Q.
>>
>> For example, I'm quite happy that I don't have to spend very much time 
>> defending my property from thieves and murderers. That frees me up to spend 
>> my time arguing on the internet.
>>
>> On 8/5/21 9:08 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> How is a blankface different from authoritarian? 
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 8:45 AM
>>> To: FriAM 
>>> Subject: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
>>>
>>> Given some of the conversations I've had with some of y'all about 
>>> bureaucracy as technology, I thought this might provide you with some 
>>> dopaminergic confirmation:
>>>
>>> https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=5675
>>>> What exactly is a blankface? He or she is often a mid-level bureaucrat, 
>>>> but not every bureaucrat is a blankface, and not every blankface is a 
>>>> bureaucrat. A blankface is anyone who enjoys wielding the 

Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

[Marcus Daniels]

Remember when there was an "out there" that was tantalizing and seemed just out 
of reach?   I once fell asleep on a long-distance call to Houston using a 1200 
baud modem just to get some new program from a BBS.  I was probably watching 
Night Line before nodding off.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:48 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

No. I don't think I've ever watched Night Line. >8^D In the late '80s, I spent 
almost all my time arguing on bulletin boards and using ftpmail to download 
things like Minix. The Russians I knew didn't talk about politics at all.

On 8/5/21 9:40 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Do you remember that moment, when the USSR was crumbling, that the Russians 
> on Night Line suddenly developed facial expressions?

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Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

[Marcus Daniels]

Well, he never said they looked tasty.  
(Maybe the QAnon folks are on to something?   But I wouldn't want to eat them, 
too oozing with fat and toxins.)

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:03 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

Well, it wasn't Scott's proposal. Scott seems to be suggesting we can (and 
should) either move past the Eloi and gain access to the Morlocks *or* 
transform the Eloi into Morlocks. That's just silly ... like trying to talk to 
Python as if it's C. What any good quantum computing dork should do is learn 
Python ... learn the languages of the Eloi and code-switch aptly.

So, Scott's final stance: "Or do they ignore all your arguments and just 
restate the original rule—seemingly angered by what they understood as a 
challenge to their authority, and delighted to reassert it? That’s the 
blankface." reflects his own unwillingness to learn. 

I'm sympathetic, of course. Even towering intellects get tired of exercising 
their towering intellect and just want the world to work the way they *expect* 
it to work, to fit their habits and entrained patterns, to be silky smooth and 
pain free.

On 8/5/21 9:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Yes, I think the proposal was to follow that metaphor to its conclusion with 
> regard to the Eloi's true value.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:44 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
> 
> Nah. That's a syntax error on your part. The Blankfaces lack any ability to 
> restructure the technology. They're Eloi, not Morlocks. What you can do, 
> though, is learn the language well enough to provide workarounds to whatever 
> peculiar structures they have in place. And you can do it all without 
> assuming there's nothing behind their blank face. In fact, it's way easier to 
> hack their system if you remember there's an entire inner universe behind 
> that blank face.
> 
> 
> On 8/5/21 9:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> The problem with the blankfaces is that they make it very hard to revise bad 
>> decisions.   They take territory to make their lives easier and to increase 
>> their power base, but when presented with the stupidity of the situation, 
>> they simply don't care.   They have no inherent disgust for suboptimality.  
>> They would have to backtrack and revise their strategy and that would be 
>> inconvenient.   
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:29 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
>>
>> I agree. When you get some quantum computing dork all up in your face 
>> complaining about the rules we all have to follow, it places an unsolicited 
>> cognitive load upon everyone in the surrounding region. Often, the best 
>> response to such narcissists is to simply stare at them and hand them 
>> another copy of the rules.
>>
>> Nick raises a good counter, though. Because behaviorism is wrong, the rules 
>> are *never* clear. So, there does need to be some wiggle room for rule 
>> discovery. Trucks are treated differently by some states' DMVs because 
>> they're mostly stupid and wasteful and we truck drivers need to be punished 
>> just a little bit for owning them. So, you fill out your form wrong. The 
>> Blankface tells you to try again. So you try again. If you have to wait in 
>> the 3 hour line more than once, it's either an optimization or a selection 
>> pressure to learn the interface and get good at following the rules.
>>
>> On 8/5/21 9:20 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> The blankfaces I have run into are cogs, they aren’t trying to regularize 
>>> their world, they are just happy it has been regularized for them.When 
>>> I'm stressed on my work, I go water the plants.   It is a repetitive motion 
>>> and easy, and easy is nice sometimes.   My take is that the blankfaces like 
>>> that kind of cognitive easy.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:17 AM
>>> To: friam@redfish.com
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
>>>
>>> My fellow Blakkfaces like Ms. Umbridge do not attempt to regularize the 
>>> entire world according to their doctrine. They are more like feudal lords, 
>>> attempting to regularize their small fiefdom. Further, most of them only 
>>> regularize a subspace of all the possible behaviors they mi

Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

[Marcus Daniels]

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/09/blame-the-bobos-creative-class/619492/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:08 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

Well, he never said they looked tasty.  
(Maybe the QAnon folks are on to something?   But I wouldn't want to eat them, 
too oozing with fat and toxins.)

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:03 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

Well, it wasn't Scott's proposal. Scott seems to be suggesting we can (and 
should) either move past the Eloi and gain access to the Morlocks *or* 
transform the Eloi into Morlocks. That's just silly ... like trying to talk to 
Python as if it's C. What any good quantum computing dork should do is learn 
Python ... learn the languages of the Eloi and code-switch aptly.

So, Scott's final stance: "Or do they ignore all your arguments and just 
restate the original rule—seemingly angered by what they understood as a 
challenge to their authority, and delighted to reassert it? That’s the 
blankface." reflects his own unwillingness to learn. 

I'm sympathetic, of course. Even towering intellects get tired of exercising 
their towering intellect and just want the world to work the way they *expect* 
it to work, to fit their habits and entrained patterns, to be silky smooth and 
pain free.

On 8/5/21 9:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Yes, I think the proposal was to follow that metaphor to its conclusion with 
> regard to the Eloi's true value.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:44 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
> 
> Nah. That's a syntax error on your part. The Blankfaces lack any ability to 
> restructure the technology. They're Eloi, not Morlocks. What you can do, 
> though, is learn the language well enough to provide workarounds to whatever 
> peculiar structures they have in place. And you can do it all without 
> assuming there's nothing behind their blank face. In fact, it's way easier to 
> hack their system if you remember there's an entire inner universe behind 
> that blank face.
> 
> 
> On 8/5/21 9:36 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> The problem with the blankfaces is that they make it very hard to revise bad 
>> decisions.   They take territory to make their lives easier and to increase 
>> their power base, but when presented with the stupidity of the situation, 
>> they simply don't care.   They have no inherent disgust for suboptimality.  
>> They would have to backtrack and revise their strategy and that would be 
>> inconvenient.   
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:29 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
>>
>> I agree. When you get some quantum computing dork all up in your face 
>> complaining about the rules we all have to follow, it places an unsolicited 
>> cognitive load upon everyone in the surrounding region. Often, the best 
>> response to such narcissists is to simply stare at them and hand them 
>> another copy of the rules.
>>
>> Nick raises a good counter, though. Because behaviorism is wrong, the rules 
>> are *never* clear. So, there does need to be some wiggle room for rule 
>> discovery. Trucks are treated differently by some states' DMVs because 
>> they're mostly stupid and wasteful and we truck drivers need to be punished 
>> just a little bit for owning them. So, you fill out your form wrong. The 
>> Blankface tells you to try again. So you try again. If you have to wait in 
>> the 3 hour line more than once, it's either an optimization or a selection 
>> pressure to learn the interface and get good at following the rules.
>>
>> On 8/5/21 9:20 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> The blankfaces I have run into are cogs, they aren’t trying to regularize 
>>> their world, they are just happy it has been regularized for them.When 
>>> I'm stressed on my work, I go water the plants.   It is a repetitive motion 
>>> and easy, and easy is nice sometimes.   My take is that the blankfaces like 
>>> that kind of cognitive easy.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:17 AM
>>> To: friam@redfish.com
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
>>>
>>> My fellow Blakkfaces 

Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

[Marcus Daniels]

In this spirit, check out the very strange Katla on Netflix.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 11:06 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

Here it helps to be a monist.  Whenever we love, what we love is what we 
experience the other person as.  What ever that "girl" became, you still loved 
"her."  Your love was true, even though the "girl" wasn't.  

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 1:12 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces

Ha! Yes, my first brush with the severe cognitive dissonance of "out there" was 
after about a month long virtual relationship over Minitel, with a very nice 
girl. I learned later through meatspace channels that she was not so nice, and 
perhaps not even a girl. It broke my tiny little Texas reared brain.

On 8/5/21 9:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Remember when there was an "out there" that was tantalizing and seemed just 
> out of reach?   I once fell asleep on a long-distance call to Houston using a 
> 1200 baud modem just to get some new program from a BBS.  I was probably 
> watching Night Line before nodding off.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 9:48 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On Blankfaces
> 
> No. I don't think I've ever watched Night Line. >8^D In the late '80s, I 
> spent almost all my time arguing on bulletin boards and using ftpmail to 
> download things like Minix. The Russians I knew didn't talk about politics at 
> all.
> 
> On 8/5/21 9:40 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Do you remember that moment, when the USSR was crumbling, that the Russians 
>> on Night Line suddenly developed facial expressions?


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Re: [FRIAM] for our psychonauts

[Marcus Daniels]

Don't forget about Mars!

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 8:24 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] for our psychonauts

Reminds me of that period in which people were desperately looking for 
something to do with nuclear explosives other than kill one another. Like:  
"Let's blow a new hole in the Isthmus of Panama!"  Project Plowshares, it was 
called. 

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 10:57 AM
To: FriAM 
Subject: [FRIAM] for our psychonauts


What Should We Make Of Sasha Chapin's Claim That Taking LSD Restored His Sense 
Of Smell After COVID?
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/what-should-we-make-of-sasha-chapins

I haven't read it, yet. I'm hoping posting it here will remind me to actually 
read it.

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Re: [FRIAM] for our psychonauts

[Marcus Daniels]

And something will have to power the artificial magnetosphere after the 
teraforming..

On Aug 6, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Steve Smith  wrote:

 Marcus Daniels wrote:

Don't forget about Mars!


LANL physicist Steve Howe was a proponent of plowsharing 
Rover<https://www.lanl.gov/science/NSS/issue1_2011/story4full.shtml> into a 
nuclear rocket for Mars with the argument that the radiation exposure to 
astronauts by the drive was less than the extra time spent outside the earth's 
magnetic field (charged-particle shield) in the cosmic/solar radiation flux.

He went on to promoting antimatter (anti-protons) instead:


https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2020/06/steven-howe-breakthroughs-for-antimatter-production-and-storage.html

Oh yeh, and he's the first person I know to have self-published (science) 
fiction through Amazon (before Doug Roberts even).

He used to carry a briefcase full of copies on his work-travels to sell on the 
plane and/or restock the rack at the ABQ Sunport.   I Just checked his Amazon 
page and it seems he's continued to riff:

Steven-Howe<https://www.amazon.com/kindle-dbs/entity/author/B005L9MAL2?_encoding=UTF8&node=283155&offset=0&pageSize=12&searchAlias=stripbooks&sort=author-sidecar-rank&page=1&langFilter=default#formatSelectorHeader>

His first book exposes his techno-libertarian tendencies.  I just learned of 
the sequel(s).



-Original Message-
From: Friam <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> On 
Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 8:24 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] for our psychonauts

Reminds me of that period in which people were desperately looking for 
something to do with nuclear explosives other than kill one another. Like:  
"Let's blow a new hole in the Isthmus of Panama!"  Project Plowshares, it was 
called.

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> On 
Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 10:57 AM
To: FriAM <mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: [FRIAM] for our psychonauts


What Should We Make Of Sasha Chapin's Claim That Taking LSD Restored His Sense 
Of Smell After COVID?
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/what-should-we-make-of-sasha-chapins

I haven't read it, yet. I'm hoping posting it here will remind me to actually 
read it.

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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

) 
lifetime.  I'm still an ffFFFing luddite about these things, but I also see an 
inevitable arc here.   Robinson did a good job (I thought) of characterizing 
the sociopoliticalspiritual implications of all this.   I forget how he solved 
the magnetosphere problem (or powered it).

For anyone who thinks there are endogenous existential threats afoot (e.g. 
climate change) and also appreciates speculative fiction, I highly recommend 
Robinson's 
Ministry-for-the-Future<https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50998056-the-ministry-for-the-future>
 written/published before COVID but not by much.   While it doesn't 
exhaustively discuss every sociopoliticaleconomictechnical response to a 
tumbled gyro of our noo-bio-cryo-sphere of a planet, it covers a lot very 
convincingly.  I don't suggest any of his maunderings will come true or even 
have more than passing resemblance to the future we are stumbling into in the 
next few decades, but it was satisfying to read someone who has clearly 
researched the hell out of the stuff coming at us like a swarm of bugs hitting 
our windshield (while we proudly outdrive our headlights).

On Aug 6, 2021, at 4:52 PM, Steve Smith 
<mailto:sasm...@swcp.com> wrote:

 Marcus Daniels wrote:


Don't forget about Mars!


LANL physicist Steve Howe was a proponent of plowsharing 
Rover<https://www.lanl.gov/science/NSS/issue1_2011/story4full.shtml> into a 
nuclear rocket for Mars with the argument that the radiation exposure to 
astronauts by the drive was less than the extra time spent outside the earth's 
magnetic field (charged-particle shield) in the cosmic/solar radiation flux.

He went on to promoting antimatter (anti-protons) instead:


https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2020/06/steven-howe-breakthroughs-for-antimatter-production-and-storage.html

Oh yeh, and he's the first person I know to have self-published (science) 
fiction through Amazon (before Doug Roberts even).

He used to carry a briefcase full of copies on his work-travels to sell on the 
plane and/or restock the rack at the ABQ Sunport.   I Just checked his Amazon 
page and it seems he's continued to riff:

Steven-Howe<https://www.amazon.com/kindle-dbs/entity/author/B005L9MAL2?_encoding=UTF8&node=283155&offset=0&pageSize=12&searchAlias=stripbooks&sort=author-sidecar-rank&page=1&langFilter=default#formatSelectorHeader>

His first book exposes his techno-libertarian tendencies.  I just learned of 
the sequel(s).



-Original Message-

From: Friam <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> On 
Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 8:24 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] for our psychonauts



Reminds me of that period in which people were desperately looking for 
something to do with nuclear explosives other than kill one another. Like:  
"Let's blow a new hole in the Isthmus of Panama!"  Project Plowshares, it was 
called.



Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/



-Original Message-

From: Friam <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> On 
Behalf Of u?l? ?>$

Sent: Friday, August 6, 2021 10:57 AM

To: FriAM <mailto:friam@redfish.com>

Subject: [FRIAM] for our psychonauts





What Should We Make Of Sasha Chapin's Claim That Taking LSD Restored His Sense 
Of Smell After COVID?

https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/what-should-we-make-of-sasha-chapins



I haven't read it, yet. I'm hoping posting it here will remind me to actually 
read it.



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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

No need for victims when there are (pandemic) volunteers.

On Aug 7, 2021, at 11:43 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:

 Marcus -
The pushback on everything from low wattage lighting to mask mandates leaves me 
thinking that there is really only one thing that motivates certain people:  
That they can do whatever the hell they want and, crucially, that other people 
cannot.   A living wage infringes on that ranking and so must be terrible.   
What if there were physical space for everyone, food for everyone, and many 
optional ways to invest one’s time?   What if one didn’t need a wage at all?  
What if you had to decide for yourself what was worth doing?  Heck, what if one 
(some post-human) didn’t even need food and didn’t need to reproduce?


Sounds Utopian... erh... Dystopian... no... UTOPIAN!   Uhm... I just hope 
posthumans collectively find the rest of us boring enough to leave alone and 
interesting enough to not need to extinct us.   Homo Neanderthalenses had a 
long run (~.4My?) before Homo Sapiens Sapiens found our way into their 
territory and apparently ran over them with our aggressive adaptivity (over a 
period of tens of thousands of years).   I suspect *some* trans/post humans 
will also have a somewhat more virulent (or at least very short time-constant) 
adaptivity indistinguishable (to us) from extermination-class aggression.

I like the fairy tale Spike Jonze wove on this topic with 
HER, and in particular the virtual 
Alan Watts conception.  But I highly 
doubt we might be so lucky.   More likely some version of "the Borg" or 
"Cylons" or "Replicators" or (passive aggressive) "Humanoids" (minus the 
gratuitous anthropomorphism).   To us, it will probably look more like a "grey 
goo" scenario.  Or perhaps more aptly hyperspectral rainbow-goo.

At the current rate of change/acceleration/jerk in technosocial change I may 
even live to see the whites of the eyes of the hypersonic train headlights I 
mistook for "light at the end of the tunnel".

I'm going to go now to get my telescoping (drywall stilts) runner's legs fit in 
place of the organic ones I grew (and then abused/neglected) over the past 65 
years.I'm holding out for AR corneal transplants for a few more months, I 
think it will be worth the long wait for the upgraded features and the new 
neural lace interface specs.

- Sieve

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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

She seems concerned that vaccinated people will spread Delta, Lambda to the 
unvaccinated.Ooh, can we?   :-)

On Aug 7, 2021, at 2:17 PM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:


Gail Tverberg:  does anyone have an opinion about her?  Based on her career as 
an actuary she writes various blog posts and articles warning of imminent 
disasters related to Covid, oil prices, etc.  When I search for commentaries 
about her I find almost nothing except items that she has written.  She is 
associated with "Our Finite World".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021, 1:28 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
No need for victims when there are (pandemic) volunteers.

On Aug 7, 2021, at 11:43 AM, Steve Smith 
mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:

 Marcus -
The pushback on everything from low wattage lighting to mask mandates leaves me 
thinking that there is really only one thing that motivates certain people:  
That they can do whatever the hell they want and, crucially, that other people 
cannot.   A living wage infringes on that ranking and so must be terrible.   
What if there were physical space for everyone, food for everyone, and many 
optional ways to invest one’s time?   What if one didn’t need a wage at all?  
What if you had to decide for yourself what was worth doing?  Heck, what if one 
(some post-human) didn’t even need food and didn’t need to reproduce?


Sounds Utopian... erh... Dystopian... no... UTOPIAN!   Uhm... I just hope 
posthumans collectively find the rest of us boring enough to leave alone and 
interesting enough to not need to extinct us.   Homo Neanderthalenses had a 
long run (~.4My?) before Homo Sapiens Sapiens found our way into their 
territory and apparently ran over them with our aggressive adaptivity (over a 
period of tens of thousands of years).   I suspect *some* trans/post humans 
will also have a somewhat more virulent (or at least very short time-constant) 
adaptivity indistinguishable (to us) from extermination-class aggression.

I like the fairy tale Spike Jonze wove on this topic with 
HER<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_(film)>, and in particular the virtual 
Alan Watts<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts> conception.  But I highly 
doubt we might be so lucky.   More likely some version of "the Borg" or 
"Cylons" or "Replicators" or (passive aggressive) "Humanoids" (minus the 
gratuitous anthropomorphism).   To us, it will probably look more like a "grey 
goo" scenario.  Or perhaps more aptly hyperspectral rainbow-goo.

At the current rate of change/acceleration/jerk in technosocial change I may 
even live to see the whites of the eyes of the hypersonic train headlights I 
mistook for "light at the end of the tunnel".

I'm going to go now to get my telescoping (drywall stilts) runner's legs fit in 
place of the organic ones I grew (and then abused/neglected) over the past 65 
years.I'm holding out for AR corneal transplants for a few more months, I 
think it will be worth the long wait for the upgraded features and the new 
neural lace interface specs.

- Sieve

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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

ss at a time frame, with considerable 
imprecision), but one does have whatever genetic memory there is to activate 
antibody-producing cells quickly.  That has been reported for about 1/2 year in 
dribs and drabs, and the variance in the results gives us an idea of roughly 
how much uncertainty we should have.

So virus establishes a beachhead in the nose and throat, and rather than taking 
a week and a half to figure out an immune response, during which time it makes 
you much sicker, you knock it out (for most of those who do get sick) in a few 
days.  All this seems to me well within the range of things that have been 
publicly reported.

Zaynap Tufecki had a nice piece in the NYT a few days ago, something like CDC 
should stop confusing the public.  It sounds like a dramatic title, but the 
content is good and sensible, and I think she mentioned part of this as well.  
Let me look:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/04/opinion/cdc-covid-guidelines.html

The Crooked guys also did a nice interview with Ashish Jha from Brown, here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SddFBebSk-c
where, in addition to being asked interesting questions and given time to give 
coherent answers, he was able to relax a bit and talk as if from thought 
instead of from script.

So it strikes me that, so far, we are getting small updates to how viral 
attacks and immunity are relating, and a little info on distributions.  None of 
it seems very surprising, and the early estimates are still closer than we have 
any right to hope for, given a new disease in the period of rapid change.  The 
fact that you can get high PCR titers in the nose of a vaccinated person is 
useful to know, perhaps not predicted per se, but not bizarre either.

—

I have thought, throughout the attention to these topics during the past year 
and a half, that we swim in viruses all the time.  We catch a cold once every 
few years, and suppose that is because our exposure Is intermittent.  But I’ll 
bet what is going on with the ambient virosphere looks much more like this 
business we are seeing with COVID than we would ever have guessed, with the 
important exception that we are all naive to COVID, and not to all the other 
stuff.  I have wished there were time and manpower to use this unprecedented 
effort at measurement, to revamp our mental pictures and epidemiological models 
of how ambient viruses are moving around.  It may be that a lot of this is 
already known, and I am just ignorant of it (that would be my first 
assumption), but I can’t imagine all this measurement doesn’t have _something_ 
of a general nature that we could learn from.

Eric






On Aug 8, 2021, at 6:16 AM, Frank Wimberly 
mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Gail Tverberg:  does anyone have an opinion about her?  Based on her career as 
an actuary she writes various blog posts and articles warning of imminent 
disasters related to Covid, oil prices, etc.  When I search for commentaries 
about her I find almost nothing except items that she has written.  She is 
associated with "Our Finite World".

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021, 1:28 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
No need for victims when there are (pandemic) volunteers.

On Aug 7, 2021, at 11:43 AM, Steve Smith 
mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:

 Marcus -
The pushback on everything from low wattage lighting to mask mandates leaves me 
thinking that there is really only one thing that motivates certain people:  
That they can do whatever the hell they want and, crucially, that other people 
cannot.   A living wage infringes on that ranking and so must be terrible.   
What if there were physical space for everyone, food for everyone, and many 
optional ways to invest one’s time?   What if one didn’t need a wage at all?  
What if you had to decide for yourself what was worth doing?  Heck, what if one 
(some post-human) didn’t even need food and didn’t need to reproduce?


Sounds Utopian... erh... Dystopian... no... UTOPIAN!   Uhm... I just hope 
posthumans collectively find the rest of us boring enough to leave alone and 
interesting enough to not need to extinct us.   Homo Neanderthalenses had a 
long run (~.4My?) before Homo Sapiens Sapiens found our way into their 
territory and apparently ran over them with our aggressive adaptivity (over a 
period of tens of thousands of years).   I suspect *some* trans/post humans 
will also have a somewhat more virulent (or at least very short time-constant) 
adaptivity indistinguishable (to us) from extermination-class aggression.

I like the fairy tale Spike Jonze wove on this topic with 
HER<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_(film)>, and in particular the virtual 
Alan Watts<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts> conception.  But I highly 
doubt we might be so lucky.   More likely some version of "the Borg" or 
"Cylons" or "

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.   Exercise 
(or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling changes.   (Like 
in the current example with insulin resistance.)Systematic control of the 
body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics isn't possible yet, but many 
causal relations are understood or at least have been tested for safety.
What I find strange is that so many people (and not just anti-vaxxers) prefer 
total ignorance to partial ignorance.   I would rather turn a knob to select my 
weight or VO2 max than have to run 10 miles a day.  Not just because it is 
easier or uses less time, but it because it is way cooler.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There are 
clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, etc.)?

But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for the 
disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed from 
blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior. 

The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must simply 
be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving you my 
tough love wisdom. Pfft.

One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list) enjoy. Most 
of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low income. Not only is 
their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it costs MONEY to eat well, 
but many of them have more than 1 job and often work off hours (like night 
shifts or weekends). Such schedules make it difficult to stick to any regimen. 
And it's not merely diet that suffers but exercise too. I'm just barely 
disciplined enough to exercise 4-5 days per week for about 1.5 hours each 
session. But I exercise in the morning. If I sleep past 5am, or have a Zoom 
meeting before 8am, my exercise session is screwed up. If I speed through it, I 
end up hurting my back, putting me out of commission for at least several days. 
Etc.

So, if you are one of the LUCKY ONES, lucky enough to have haphazardly fallen 
into your life of privilege, good for you. But don't accuse others of moral 
failings just because they don't behave the way you behave. That road, however 
it's paved, leads you straight to hell.


On 8/8/21 11:31 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
> Prof David West, just confirming, I'm not speaking in absolutes.
> 
> My point is simply that for most of us you can significantly reduce future 
> health problems by following a healthy lifestyle. This is not limited to but 
> includes severe health problems if you are infected by the covid virus.
> 
> P
> 
> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 19:15, Prof David West  > wrote:
> 
> __
> Not Pieter, but ...
> 
> Some small percentage of _*Type II *_diabetes is not 
> preventable/controllable with diet and exercise.
> 
> Similarly, of the 42% of the US population that is obese (9.2% morbidly 
> obese), some small subset is not preventable/controllable with diet exercise. 
> (My guess is less that 20-25%).
> 
> I am pretty sure Pieter was not speaking in absolutes.
> 
> davew
> 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021, at 8:46 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>  wrote:
>>
>> Pieter,
>>
>>  
>>
>> I am interested in your assertion that metabolic disorders like 
>> diabetes and obesity are preventable.
>>
>>  
>>
>> N
>>
>>  
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
>> 
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* Friam > > *On Behalf Of *Pieter Steenekamp
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 8, 2021 5:16 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and 
>> exponential technological growth.
>>
>>  
>>
>> The CDC reports that among 4,899,447 hospitalized adults in 
>> PHD-SR, 540,667 (11.0%) were patients with COVID-19, of whom 94.9% had at 
>> least 1 underlying medical condition. 
>> https://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2021/21_0123.htm 
>> 

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

Nice.  But I think my favorite on that list has got to be Rumination Disorder.  
 Such a surprise at a dinner party.  Yes, I definitely know some Orthorexians!

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 9:07 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

What I find magical about both cats and people is how plastic we are. The point 
of a regimen is to clamp down against that plasticity ... turn us into robots. 
I'm no Dionysian. But the idea of clamping out all the variation that allows us 
to go off a local optimum to find (collectively) a higher peak is a bit 
disgusting to me, no pun intended. That we have supplements that help trigger 
some of the pathways triggered by fasting is a great example, but susceptible 
to pseudoscience.

Many doctors, physicians' assistants, anesthesiologists, etc. ... especially 
cardiologists, seem so rigorous about their lifestyles they seem unhealthy to 
me. One of Renee's friends and co-workers back in Oregon fit the description 
given for *orthorexia* to a T 
<https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/learn/by-eating-disorder/other/orthorexia>.

Brings to mind the quote attributed to Wilde: "Everything in moderation, 
including moderation."

On 8/9/21 8:30 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.   Exercise 
> (or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling changes.   
> (Like in the current example with insulin resistance.)Systematic control 
> of the body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics isn't possible yet, 
> but many causal relations are understood or at least have been tested for 
> safety.What I find strange is that so many people (and not just 
> anti-vaxxers) prefer total ignorance to partial ignorance.   I would rather 
> turn a knob to select my weight or VO2 max than have to run 10 miles a day.  
> Not just because it is easier or uses less time, but it because it is way 
> cooler.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
> There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
> by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There 
> are clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, 
> etc.)?
> 
> But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
> analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
> of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for 
> the disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed 
> from blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
> physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior. 
> 
> The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
> preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
> breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must 
> simply be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving 
> you my tough love wisdom. Pfft.
> 
> One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list) enjoy. 
> Most of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low income. Not 
> only is their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it costs MONEY to 
> eat well, but many of them have more than 1 job and often work off hours 
> (like night shifts or weekends). Such schedules make it difficult to stick to 
> any regimen. And it's not merely diet that suffers but exercise too. I'm just 
> barely disciplined enough to exercise 4-5 days per week for about 1.5 hours 
> each session. But I exercise in the morning. If I sleep past 5am, or have a 
> Zoom meeting before 8am, my exercise session is screwed up. If I speed 
> through it, I end up hurting my back, putting me out of commission for at 
> least several days. Etc.
> 
> So, if you are one of the LUCKY ONES, lucky enough to have haphazardly fallen 
> into your life of privilege, good for you. But don't accuse others of moral 
> failings just because they don't behave the way you behave. That road, 
> however it's paved, leads you straight to hell.
> 
> 
> On 8/8/21 11:31 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>> Prof David West, just confirming, I'm not speaking in absolutes.
>>
>> My point is simply that for most of us you can significantly reduce future 
>> health 

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

I think that hospitals in the south will be flooded by December with more viral 
evolution by then.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 11:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html

T

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:52 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Nice.  But I think my favorite on that list has got to be Rumination Disorder.  
 Such a surprise at a dinner party.  Yes, I definitely know some Orthorexians!

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 9:07 AM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

What I find magical about both cats and people is how plastic we are. The point 
of a regimen is to clamp down against that plasticity ... turn us into robots. 
I'm no Dionysian. But the idea of clamping out all the variation that allows us 
to go off a local optimum to find (collectively) a higher peak is a bit 
disgusting to me, no pun intended. That we have supplements that help trigger 
some of the pathways triggered by fasting is a great example, but susceptible 
to pseudoscience.

Many doctors, physicians' assistants, anesthesiologists, etc. ... especially 
cardiologists, seem so rigorous about their lifestyles they seem unhealthy to 
me. One of Renee's friends and co-workers back in Oregon fit the description 
given for *orthorexia* to a T 
<https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/learn/by-eating-disorder/other/orthorexia>.

Brings to mind the quote attributed to Wilde: "Everything in moderation, 
including moderation."

On 8/9/21 8:30 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.   Exercise 
> (or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling changes.   
> (Like in the current example with insulin resistance.)Systematic control 
> of the body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics isn't possible yet, 
> but many causal relations are understood or at least have been tested for 
> safety.What I find strange is that so many people (and not just 
> anti-vaxxers) prefer total ignorance to partial ignorance.   I would rather 
> turn a knob to select my weight or VO2 max than have to run 10 miles a day.  
> Not just because it is easier or uses less time, but it because it is way 
> cooler.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
>
> There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
> by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There 
> are clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, 
> etc.)?
>
> But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
> analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
> of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for 
> the disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed 
> from blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
> physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior.
>
> The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
> preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
> breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must 
> simply be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving 
> you my tough love wisdom. Pfft.
>
> One further issue lies in the privileges most of us (on this list) enjoy. 
> Most of the people I know who eat highly processed food are low income. Not 
> only is their diet exceedingly difficult to manage because it costs MONEY to 
> eat well, but many of them have more than 1 job and often work off hours 
> (like night shifts or weekends). Such schedules make it difficult to stick to 
> any regimen. And it's not merely diet that suffers but exercise too. I'm just 
> barely disciplined enough to exercise 4-5 days per week for about 1.5 hours 
> each session. But I exercise in the morning. If I sleep past 5am, or have a 
> Zoom meeting before 8am, my exercise session is scr

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

A few thoughts:


  1.  Medicare and Medicaid could be used a levers to force vaccinations.   
This is just short of the possibility of not even letting unvaccinated people 
into hospitals.
  2.  There must be some hospital chains that are bleeding money.   Perhaps now 
is the time to short those that are publically traded?   For that matter, any 
company in the south that must be indoors?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

I think that hospitals in the south will be flooded by December with more viral 
evolution by then.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 11:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html

T

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:52 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Nice.  But I think my favorite on that list has got to be Rumination Disorder.  
 Such a surprise at a dinner party.  Yes, I definitely know some Orthorexians!

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 9:07 AM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

What I find magical about both cats and people is how plastic we are. The point 
of a regimen is to clamp down against that plasticity ... turn us into robots. 
I'm no Dionysian. But the idea of clamping out all the variation that allows us 
to go off a local optimum to find (collectively) a higher peak is a bit 
disgusting to me, no pun intended. That we have supplements that help trigger 
some of the pathways triggered by fasting is a great example, but susceptible 
to pseudoscience.

Many doctors, physicians' assistants, anesthesiologists, etc. ... especially 
cardiologists, seem so rigorous about their lifestyles they seem unhealthy to 
me. One of Renee's friends and co-workers back in Oregon fit the description 
given for *orthorexia* to a T 
<https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/learn/by-eating-disorder/other/orthorexia>.

Brings to mind the quote attributed to Wilde: "Everything in moderation, 
including moderation."

On 8/9/21 8:30 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A vaccine installs information in the immune system about antigen.   Exercise 
> (or fasting) distills into various kinds of cell and signaling changes.   
> (Like in the current example with insulin resistance.)Systematic control 
> of the body (and brain) through chemicals or biologics isn't possible yet, 
> but many causal relations are understood or at least have been tested for 
> safety.What I find strange is that so many people (and not just 
> anti-vaxxers) prefer total ignorance to partial ignorance.   I would rather 
> turn a knob to select my weight or VO2 max than have to run 10 miles a day.  
> Not just because it is easier or uses less time, but it because it is way 
> cooler.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 7:56 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
>
> There's quite a bit wrong with this stance. What is "health"? What do we mean 
> by "control" or "prevention" (cf endless sophistry about free will)? There 
> are clear risks to people like Dr. Sinclair (cf Linus Pauling, Didier Raoult, 
> etc.)?
>
> But the problematic part of this thread that I think is most important is 
> analogous to the Disease Model of Alcoholism and, more generally, the shaming 
> of people with behavior or cognitive problems. Now, I'm not an advocate for 
> the disease model of alcoholism. But in moving that way, we've progressed 
> from blaming alcoholism on a person's moral failings to understanding the 
> physiological reward system that drives much of our behavior.
>
> The claim that obesity and/or a large share of type 2 diabetes is 
> preventable/controllable is clearly a problematic claim ... a bit like my dad 
> breaking my nose and telling me to "suck it up". If you're fat, you must 
> simply be a loser. Pull yourself up and do the work. Now, thank me for giving 
> you my tough love wisdom. Pfft.
>
> One further issu

Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

I mean as a matter of betting, spatial location is a valuable fact.  
Bet against Mississippi instead of New Mexico. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 9, 2021 3:18 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

Well, it's not just the South.

On 8/9/21 1:12 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A few thoughts:
> 
>  
> 
>  1. Medicare and Medicaid could be used a levers to force vaccinations.   
> This is just short of the possibility of not even letting unvaccinated people 
> into hospitals.
>  2. There must be some hospital chains that are bleeding money.   Perhaps now 
> is the time to short those that are publically traded?   For that matter, any 
> company in the south that must be indoors?
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
> *Sent:* Monday, August 9, 2021 12:53 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
>  
> 
> I think that hospitals in the south will be flooded by December with more 
> viral evolution by then.
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
> *On Behalf Of *Roger Critchlow
> *Sent:* Monday, August 9, 2021 11:53 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group  <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
>  
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html
>  
> <https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/delta-variant-most-prevalent/2021/08/08/d1017f0e-f558-11eb-9068-bf463c8c74de_story.html>

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Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Monday Note #629 - Elon Musk at full throttle (FF)

[Marcus Daniels]

Also  
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/with-a-single-photo-spacex-sent-a-not-so-subtle-message-to-faa-regulators/


From: Friam  On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Sunday, August 8, 2021 1:52 PM
Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: Monday Note #629 - Elon Musk at full throttle (FF)

Interesting read

-- Forwarded message -
From: Frederic Filloux 
mailto:frederic.fill...@mondaynote.com>>
Date: Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 2:00 PM
Subject: Monday Note #629 - Elon Musk at full throttle (FF)
To: mailto:t...@jtjohnson.com>>

[Monday
 
Note]
#629

August 8, 2021

What Makes Elon Musk Move So 
Fast
SpaceX is assembling its giant Starship rocket at an incredible pace. Here are 
some clues on how it does it.

By Frederic 
Filloux

[https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/600/1*G6a8pprhi6HE1RyFLday4A.png]
Credit: Tim Dodd, Everyday 
Astronaut

This episode was supposed to be about the funding of the New Space, but I still 
need to secure a couple of interviews. Plus, I wanted to share new findings on 
the “Elon Musk method.” The idea emerged from a two-hour video featuring the 
SpaceX founder touring its South Texas facility where the megarocket Starship 
is being assembled. The erudite YouTuber Tim 
Dodd
 had a chance to walk through the huge tents, buildings, and launchpad, guided 
by Musk.

There are reasons to be fascinated by the size and scope of Musk’s latest 
endeavor: the Starship rocket is 120 meters high, the equivalent of an almost 
40-story building, taller than the iconic Saturn V. Except this one will be 
fully reusable and quite versatile, as it will be able to put 100 tonnes in 
orbit. That’s four times Falcon 9’s capacity, and it will also ferry astronauts 
to the Moon and eventually to Mars. Last week marked a milestone, with, for the 
first time, the two parts of the rocket being stacked upon each other in a 
spectacular fashion:

[0*Gs-Y_xQf9GN6S7Aj]
Credit: RGV Aerial 
Photography

What is even more stunning is the pace at which SpaceX is putting together all 
the components: buildings, such as the 400-foot metallic structure that will 
capture the first stage of the rocket upon landing, are built and assembled in 
parallel to various iterations of the rocket itself. As it was running out of 
hangars, the company deployed huge tents to host the most critical phases of 
manufacturing. No wasted time here.

Tim Dodd’s video features an unpolished Elon Musk, sweating in the early 
evening heat of South Texas, sleep-deprived, afflicted with serious back pain, 
uncaring about his physical appearance but always intense and obsessive. As 
geeky as it is, the interview definitely has a documentary value.
[https://i.embed.ly/1/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2Ft705r8ICkRw%2Fhqdefault.jpg&key=a19fcc184b9711e1b4764040d3dc5c07]

But in addition to that value, there are other things that we can mention about 
how the Musk method applies to building a giant spaceship. Here are five 
arbitrarily chosen clues into SpaceX’s culture and method.

1 . Musk’s Engineering Philosophy

I already covered the Musk method for making cars in the Monday Note series 
about EVs (read How Tesla cracked the code of automobile 
innovation),
 but SpaceX founder made some adaptations for rocket manufacturing:

“Step one: Make the requirements less dumb. The requirements are definitely 
dumb; it does not matter who gave them to you. It’s particularly dangerous when 
they come from an intelligent person, as you may not question them enough. 
Everyone’s wrong. No matter who you are, everyone is wrong some of the time. 
All designs are wrong, it’s just a matter of how wrong.”

“Step two: try very hard to delete the part or process. If parts are not being 
added back into the design at least 10% of the time, [it means that] not enough 
parts are being deleted. The bias tends to be very strongly toward ‘let’s add 
this part or process step in case we need it. Additionally, each required part 
and process must come from a name, not a department, as a department cannot be 
asked why 

Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Marcus Daniels]

The great thing about ethics is that we have so many systems to choose from.   
I'll take my anarchist thinking except when I'm a stoic or a nihilist and Glen 
can advocate postmodernism, except when important topics like beer arise.   

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 7:45 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

It's always unclear to me by what people mean by "moral". But this paper covers 
it fairly well, I think:

The search for predictable moral partners: Predictability and moral (character) 
preferences
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022103121000998

The idea being that predictability is beneficial when the foundations are 
cooperative. But do we have to tie "moral" to cooperation? It seems 
straightforward that we could develop a rule-based morality based on greed, 
confidence games, and very tightly selfish heuristics. So, if someone much like 
Trump says they're an exploitative, gaming, solipsist ... then they steal money 
from their fellow taxpayers, they are *moral* ... they adhere to that standard. 
(And if someone says they're one of those, but behaves altruistically, then 
they're *immoral*.)

As always, ContraPoints has an interesting take on a feeling that might be 
considered universally bad:

Envy
https://youtu.be/aPhrTOg1RUk

In contrast to the other deadly sins, envy is more difficult to "moralize", 
individually or collectively.


On 8/8/21 9:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> Jochen -
> 
> Thanks for the original article reference.   It lead me to seek out and find 
> another interesting /relevant introductory/survey article:
> 
>     Stability of Democracies:  A Complex Systems Perspective 
> 
> 
> In regards to your original question, my own biased intuition is that 
> it is a vicious (rather than virtuous) cycle.   Our various corrupt leaders 
> with notable presidents such as Harding (Teapot Dome), Nixon (Watergate++) 
> and DJT-45 (Tax, Emoluments, Election, Sexual Misconduct, etc... many left to 
> be exposed I suspect) definitely undermine the confidence in and commitment 
> to our imperfect Democracy, driving it further away from any ideal it might 
> aspire to.
> 
> I personally wasted half of my voting life in reaction to Nixon and 
> the next several cycles following.   Watching the shenanigans of 2000 and 
> then 2016 and worse 2020, I expect there will be entire new generations as 
> disaffected as I was.  It is hard to maintain a legitimate participatory 
> Democracy with that level of disaffection and confusion.
> 
> The Wrong (formerly Right) Wing in the US seems nearly dead-set on leveraging 
> this to the extreme.   In hindsight, the rhetoric of the Wrong Wing has been 
> playing at this for my entire adult life, but it is acutely worse this past 
> 1-5 years.   From Trump's embrace of nearly every right wing dictator he 
> could find to Tucker Carlson in Hungary this week, it seems to be happening 
> entirely in plain sight!
> 
> - Steve
> 
> 
> On 8/8/21 2:09 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>> Good example. Like the USA South Africa was a former British colony. 
>> And both countries had to struggle with racism in the past. But the 
>> development of democracy was different. The rise and fall of 
>> democracy is an interesting topic 
>> https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691177465/the-decline
>> -and-rise-of-democracy
>>
>> I wonder what the essential factor is: do immoral presidents cause 
>> the collapse of democracy in a country by undermining democratic 
>> institutions or is it the other way round: the economy (and therefore the 
>> country) is already broken and institutions are weak, which enables immoral 
>> authoritarian rulers to grab power? Or a combination of both?
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>  Original message 
>> From: Pieter Steenekamp 
>> Date: 8/8/21 20:26 (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
>>
>> Well, I'm from South Africa, and we have been close to moral collapse and 
>> IMO that could have led to our state failing.
>>
>> If you ask ten South Africans you'll get maybe twenty opinions, below is 
>> just my very brief view of what has been and what is happening in South 
>> Africa.
>>
>> South Africa became democratic in 1994 with Nelson Mandela the president. 
>> With him at the helm we had the moral high ground. His immediate successor 
>> Thabo Mbeki also did well. But between 2009 and 2017 Jacob Zuma was our 
>> president. He looted very seriously from the state and unfortunately under 
>> him many people in all state organisations started to also loot. The 
>> corruption became very deep. He is in jail now.
>>
>> We now have Cyril Ramaphosa as president and it's anybody's guess, 
>> but at least I'm very confident that Cyril is leading us again towards the 
>> 

Re: [FRIAM] FW: [EXT] Glen Ropella published a chapter

[Marcus Daniels]

But if you buy it from *Amazon*, you can get it by the end of the week!   

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 9:37 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: [EXT] Glen Ropella published a chapter

Heh, thanks. A $225 book nobody will buy. 8^D

https://bookshop.org/books/drug-delivery-approaches-perspectives-from-pharmacokinetics-and-pharmacodynamics/9781119772736

But to be clear, my co-authors deserve any credit. Including me was charity on 
their part.

On 8/10/21 9:20 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Way to go, Glen! 
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Re: [FRIAM] FW: [EXT] Glen Ropella published a chapter

[Marcus Daniels]

Someone ask Alexa for pages 375 to 402 in digital form. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 10:46 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: [EXT] Glen Ropella published a chapter

There is something odd about a publication too expensive for anybody to read 
...  if a tree falls in a wilderness ... .  

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 1:41 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: [EXT] Glen Ropella published a chapter

OMG, Yes! I need it NOW!! And who wants to put on their big boy pants and 
actually go to a bookstore or something ridiculous like that. I'd rather stay 
here, eat my spicy Cheetos, and wait for the delivery drone. "Alexa, buy me 
that book you saw while reading my email."

On 8/10/21 10:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> But if you buy it from *Amazon*, you can get it by the end of the week!   
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 9:37 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: [EXT] Glen Ropella published a chapter
> 
> Heh, thanks. A $225 book nobody will buy. 8^D
> 
> https://bookshop.org/books/drug-delivery-approaches-perspectives-from-
> pharmacokinetics-and-pharmacodynamics/9781119772736
> 
> But to be clear, my co-authors deserve any credit. Including me was charity 
> on their part.
> 
> On 8/10/21 9:20 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Way to go, Glen! 
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Marcus Daniels]

I think the kind of morality I would find useful would look something like 
Wikipedia contributors.   Working away in obscurity for the greater good...

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 10:46 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

Yes, if you squint. The trick is that both opaque and transparent ML algorithms 
are *engineered*. So, rather than intension/extension, a better frame would be 
the gen-phen map, forward-inverse map. The opaque boxes are the, probably 
irreversible, result of a complicated process. I think information is lost in 
that process. So even if you can somewhat reverse engineer how an opaque 
algorithm was built, it wouldn't be very accurate.

A better approach would be to interview a bunch of ML people and catalog how 
*they* would have created such an opaque model. There's probably an analog of 
that in ethology.


On 8/10/21 10:41 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> I wonder if the interpretable/explainable distinction maps on to the 
> goal/function distinction  which maps on to the phenomenon/epi-phenomenon 
> distinction which maps on the function spandrel distinction which maps on to 
> the intension/extension distinction which .
> 
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 1:23 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
> 
> Yeah, it was long. I only got through half of it during my workout this 
> morning.
> 
> I suppose it's right to say that the normative definition of moral 
> would exclude Trump (or people like him). But if we stuck to your idea 
> that a particular morality be *expressible*. (FWIW, I think the extra 
> qualifier "independently of oneself" is redundant, at least a little. 
> Any expression has to be at least somewhat objective ... spoken word 
> causes air vibrations, video recordings of someone talking, written 
> documents, etc.)
> 
> So, there's a hot debate at the moment in machine learning about the 
> different usage patterns for interpretable ML vs explainable ML, whereas 
> "explainable" is weaker in that it doesn't give any direct access to the 
> mechanism, only describes it somewhat ... "simulates" it. Interpretable ML is 
> supposedly a kind of transparency so that you can see inside, have access to 
> the actual mechanism that executes when the algorithm makes a prediction.
> 
> Targeting your idea that a moral code must be expressible, do you mean a 
> perfect, transparent expression of the mechanism a moral actor uses? Or do 
> you mean simulable ... such that we can build relatively high fidelity 
> *models* of the mechanism inside the actor?
> 
> On 8/10/21 10:11 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>> The Envy video looked like a lot of fun, but it was too long for me to sit 
>> through it.
>>
>> Regarding morality, my guess is that it's not predictability that leads 
>> people to consider someone moral, it's acting according to a framework that 
>> can be expressed independently of oneself. Society-wide utilitarianism would 
>> be fine; "someone much like Trump [who] says they're an exploitative, 
>> gaming, solipsist" and then behaves in a way consistent with that 
>> description, would not be considered moral no matter how consistently their 
>> behavior simply optimized short-term personal benefits. After all, to take 
>> your own Trump example, I doubt that many people would characterize Trump as 
>> moral.
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Marcus Daniels]

What if they are integrated high-functioning sociopaths?   By a common-sense 
evaluation, Trump is high-functioning.  He became president, after all.   
People that seek power tend to be the sort of people that probably shouldn’t 
have it, in my experience.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 10:33 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

Psychologists I know would call a person whose behavior is consistent with his 
self description is integrated rather than moral.  "Integrated" is usually a 
good quality but not if someone happily describes himself in sociopathic terms. 
 Trump is, in my non-professional opinion, an amoral, narcissistic sociopath.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 11:24 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ 
mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Yeah, it was long. I only got through half of it during my workout this morning.

I suppose it's right to say that the normative definition of moral would 
exclude Trump (or people like him). But if we stuck to your idea that a 
particular morality be *expressible*. (FWIW, I think the extra qualifier 
"independently of oneself" is redundant, at least a little. Any expression has 
to be at least somewhat objective ... spoken word causes air vibrations, video 
recordings of someone talking, written documents, etc.)

So, there's a hot debate at the moment in machine learning about the different 
usage patterns for interpretable ML vs explainable ML, whereas "explainable" is 
weaker in that it doesn't give any direct access to the mechanism, only 
describes it somewhat ... "simulates" it. Interpretable ML is supposedly a kind 
of transparency so that you can see inside, have access to the actual mechanism 
that executes when the algorithm makes a prediction.

Targeting your idea that a moral code must be expressible, do you mean a 
perfect, transparent expression of the mechanism a moral actor uses? Or do you 
mean simulable ... such that we can build relatively high fidelity *models* of 
the mechanism inside the actor?

On 8/10/21 10:11 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> The Envy video looked like a lot of fun, but it was too long for me to sit 
> through it.
>
> Regarding morality, my guess is that it's not predictability that leads 
> people to consider someone moral, it's acting according to a framework that 
> can be expressed independently of oneself. Society-wide utilitarianism would 
> be fine; "someone much like Trump [who] says they're an exploitative, gaming, 
> solipsist" and then behaves in a way consistent with that description, would 
> not be considered moral no matter how consistently their behavior simply 
> optimized short-term personal benefits. After all, to take your own Trump 
> example, I doubt that many people would characterize Trump as moral.

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Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Marcus Daniels]

Sure.   I'm just trying to get the "pathological" aspect of personality defined 
away.  You talk to your billionaire friend with the initials PT and he explains 
why it is necessary to drain the blood of random victims.  It all holds 
together from his integrated world view.  How can it be called immoral except 
by using another integrated world view?

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 11:17 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

The problem is that, in the case of editing Wikipedia articles or a Jared 
Kushner operating some kind of "data science" scheme in the background, you 
can't tell whether a person who *seems* to not seek power actually doesn't seek 
power. Many of those wikipedia contributors are seeking power and aren't 
working for "the" common good (maybe some local in-group good, but not a global 
one). So, "seeming to seek power" might be a good indicator of someone who 
shouldn't have it. But "not seeming to seek power" isn't at all sufficient for 
identifying those who should have it.

And it's more difficult to simulate the moral code of someone who seems to NOT 
seek power.

On 8/10/21 10:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> What if they are integrated high-functioning sociopaths?   By a common-sense 
> evaluation, Trump is high-functioning.  He became president, after all.   
> People that seek power tend to be the sort of people that probably shouldn’t 
> have it, in my experience.
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Frank 
> Wimberly
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 10, 2021 10:33 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
> 
>  
> 
> Psychologists I know would call a person whose behavior is consistent with 
> his self description is integrated rather than moral.  "Integrated" is 
> usually a good quality but not if someone happily describes himself in 
> sociopathic terms.  Trump is, in my non-professional opinion, an amoral, 
> narcissistic sociopath.
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
>  
> 
> On Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 11:24 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, it was long. I only got through half of it during my workout this 
> morning.
> 
> I suppose it's right to say that the normative definition of moral 
> would exclude Trump (or people like him). But if we stuck to your idea 
> that a particular morality be *expressible*. (FWIW, I think the extra 
> qualifier "independently of oneself" is redundant, at least a little. 
> Any expression has to be at least somewhat objective ... spoken word 
> causes air vibrations, video recordings of someone talking, written 
> documents, etc.)
> 
> So, there's a hot debate at the moment in machine learning about the 
> different usage patterns for interpretable ML vs explainable ML, whereas 
> "explainable" is weaker in that it doesn't give any direct access to the 
> mechanism, only describes it somewhat ... "simulates" it. Interpretable ML is 
> supposedly a kind of transparency so that you can see inside, have access to 
> the actual mechanism that executes when the algorithm makes a prediction.
> 
> Targeting your idea that a moral code must be expressible, do you mean a 
> perfect, transparent expression of the mechanism a moral actor uses? Or do 
> you mean simulable ... such that we can build relatively high fidelity 
> *models* of the mechanism inside the actor?
> 
> On 8/10/21 10:11 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > The Envy video looked like a lot of fun, but it was too long for me to 
> sit through it.
> >
> > Regarding morality, my guess is that it's not predictability that leads 
> people to consider someone moral, it's acting according to a framework that 
> can be expressed independently of oneself. Society-wide utilitarianism would 
> be fine; "someone much like Trump [who] says they're an exploitative, gaming, 
> solipsist" and then behaves in a way consistent with that description, would 
> not be considered moral no matter how consistently their behavior simply 
> optimized short-term personal benefits. After all, to take your own Trump 
> example, I doubt that many people would characterize Trump as moral.
> 
> -- 
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Marcus Daniels]

Glen writes:

< So, "seeming to seek power" might be a good indicator of someone who 
shouldn't have it. But "not seeming to seek power" isn't at all sufficient for 
identifying those who should have it. >

Thus anarchists view that power should not be allowed, period -- all 
organization should be slowed.
Enforcing that view is essentially impossible without creating the conditions 
for cooperation.   There's always a big dog to take down.  So in the end one 
can opt for Realpolitik or some bible thumping.  There was never any morality.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 11:26 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

Sure.   I'm just trying to get the "pathological" aspect of personality defined 
away.  You talk to your billionaire friend with the initials PT and he explains 
why it is necessary to drain the blood of random victims.  It all holds 
together from his integrated world view.  How can it be called immoral except 
by using another integrated world view?

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 11:17 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

The problem is that, in the case of editing Wikipedia articles or a Jared 
Kushner operating some kind of "data science" scheme in the background, you 
can't tell whether a person who *seems* to not seek power actually doesn't seek 
power. Many of those wikipedia contributors are seeking power and aren't 
working for "the" common good (maybe some local in-group good, but not a global 
one). So, "seeming to seek power" might be a good indicator of someone who 
shouldn't have it. But "not seeming to seek power" isn't at all sufficient for 
identifying those who should have it.

And it's more difficult to simulate the moral code of someone who seems to NOT 
seek power.

On 8/10/21 10:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> What if they are integrated high-functioning sociopaths?   By a common-sense 
> evaluation, Trump is high-functioning.  He became president, after all.   
> People that seek power tend to be the sort of people that probably shouldn’t 
> have it, in my experience.
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Frank 
> Wimberly
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 10, 2021 10:33 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
> 
>  
> 
> Psychologists I know would call a person whose behavior is consistent with 
> his self description is integrated rather than moral.  "Integrated" is 
> usually a good quality but not if someone happily describes himself in 
> sociopathic terms.  Trump is, in my non-professional opinion, an amoral, 
> narcissistic sociopath.
> 
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> 
>  
> 
> On Tue, Aug 10, 2021, 11:24 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, it was long. I only got through half of it during my workout this 
> morning.
> 
> I suppose it's right to say that the normative definition of moral 
> would exclude Trump (or people like him). But if we stuck to your idea 
> that a particular morality be *expressible*. (FWIW, I think the extra 
> qualifier "independently of oneself" is redundant, at least a little.
> Any expression has to be at least somewhat objective ... spoken word 
> causes air vibrations, video recordings of someone talking, written 
> documents, etc.)
> 
> So, there's a hot debate at the moment in machine learning about the 
> different usage patterns for interpretable ML vs explainable ML, whereas 
> "explainable" is weaker in that it doesn't give any direct access to the 
> mechanism, only describes it somewhat ... "simulates" it. Interpretable ML is 
> supposedly a kind of transparency so that you can see inside, have access to 
> the actual mechanism that executes when the algorithm makes a prediction.
> 
> Targeting your idea that a moral code must be expressible, do you mean a 
> perfect, transparent expression of the mechanism a moral actor uses? Or do 
> you mean simulable ... such that we can build relatively high fidelity 
> *models* of the mechanism inside the actor?
> 
> On 8/10/21 10:11 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
> > The Envy video looked like a lot of fun, but it was too long for me to 
> sit through it.
> >
> > Regarding morality, my guess is that it's not predictability that leads 
> people to conside

Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Marcus Daniels]

As far as I can tell, people that complain about the decay of morality are 
mostly complaining about how the world isn't how they prefer.  But they either 
don't do anything to make the world they way they want, or do crazy 
irresponsible things that don't even achieve their aims.. to the extent they 
even understand them.   I worry that the "left" has started to believe their 
own Rachel-just-so stories about what is fair and unfair, good and bad, etc. 
when in the end all there is power.  Take it or have it taken from you. 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 1:09 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

OK. So cooperation is the foundation. As ContraPoints goes through her essay, 
she makes the point that morality is an envy/resentment construct where those 
without power express their inability to change the structure - can't take down 
the big dog and maybe even don't WANT to take down the big dog. That latter 
part would be a part of, at least, anarcho-syndicalism. Weak groups may not 
want to take down powerful groups, rather model the dynamic further into the 
future and nudge the powerful group.

In either case, there's no need for morality as ContraPoints describes because 
morality only comes from complete inability and resentment. As long as you can 
nudge, you can replace morality with practical action. But, of course, some of 
us want larger/faster nudges than others of us. So, there'd still be a valid 
type of *frustrated* or somesuch ... maybe not morality but "stance" or 
"operating principle".


On 8/10/21 12:15 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Glen writes:
> 
> < So, "seeming to seek power" might be a good indicator of someone who 
> shouldn't have it. But "not seeming to seek power" isn't at all 
> sufficient for identifying those who should have it. >
> 
> Thus anarchists view that power should not be allowed, period -- all 
> organization should be slowed.
> Enforcing that view is essentially impossible without creating the conditions 
> for cooperation.   There's always a big dog to take down.  So in the end one 
> can opt for Realpolitik or some bible thumping.  There was never any morality.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 11:26 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
> 
> Sure.   I'm just trying to get the "pathological" aspect of personality 
> defined away.  You talk to your billionaire friend with the initials PT and 
> he explains why it is necessary to drain the blood of random victims.  It all 
> holds together from his integrated world view.  How can it be called immoral 
> except by using another integrated world view?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2021 11:17 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
> 
> The problem is that, in the case of editing Wikipedia articles or a Jared 
> Kushner operating some kind of "data science" scheme in the background, you 
> can't tell whether a person who *seems* to not seek power actually doesn't 
> seek power. Many of those wikipedia contributors are seeking power and aren't 
> working for "the" common good (maybe some local in-group good, but not a 
> global one). So, "seeming to seek power" might be a good indicator of someone 
> who shouldn't have it. But "not seeming to seek power" isn't at all 
> sufficient for identifying those who should have it.
> 
> And it's more difficult to simulate the moral code of someone who seems to 
> NOT seek power.
> 
> On 8/10/21 10:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> What if they are integrated high-functioning sociopaths?   By a common-sense 
>> evaluation, Trump is high-functioning.  He became president, after all.   
>> People that seek power tend to be the sort of people that probably shouldn’t 
>> have it, in my experience.
>>
>>  
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Frank 
>> Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 10, 2021 10:33 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>> 
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
>>
>>  
>>
>> Psychologists I know would call a person whose behavior is consistent with 
>> his self description is integrated rather than moral.  "Integrated" is 
>> usually a good quality but not if someone happily describes himself in 
>>

Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Marcus Daniels]

Glen writes:

< Some lefties are like me, squawking because they're out of tune and will get 
to practical action sooner or later. But, yeah, some are just yelling Get Off 
My Lawn! >

I recall arguing with someone about the tradeoff between health care for 
oneself or for one's child.   That somehow it is "wrong" to have to make that 
choice and that one shouldn't have to.   It only is wrong if enough people can 
be persuaded that it is wrong.   Similarly the climate will happily change and 
kill as many people happen to be in the way.   There's no Staples Easy button.  
 No final authority to fix it all.   I think that is starting to sink in after 
Trump. 

Marcus
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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

n with the ambient virosphere looks much more like this 
business we are seeing with COVID than we would ever have guessed, with the 
important exception that we are all naive to COVID, and not to all the other 
stuff.  I have wished there were time and manpower to use this unprecedented 
effort at measurement, to revamp our mental pictures and epidemiological models 
of how ambient viruses are moving around.  It may be that a lot of this is 
already known, and I am just ignorant of it (that would be my first 
assumption), but I can’t imagine all this measurement doesn’t have _something_ 
of a general nature that we could learn from.

Eric







On Aug 8, 2021, at 6:16 AM, Frank Wimberly 
mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Gail Tverberg:  does anyone have an opinion about her?  Based on her career as 
an actuary she writes various blog posts and articles warning of imminent 
disasters related to Covid, oil prices, etc.  When I search for commentaries 
about her I find almost nothing except items that she has written.  She is 
associated with "Our Finite World".
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021, 1:28 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
No need for victims when there are (pandemic) volunteers.


On Aug 7, 2021, at 11:43 AM, Steve Smith 
mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
 Marcus -

The pushback on everything from low wattage lighting to mask mandates leaves me 
thinking that there is really only one thing that motivates certain people:  
That they can do whatever the hell they want and, crucially, that other people 
cannot.   A living wage infringes on that ranking and so must be terrible.   
What if there were physical space for everyone, food for everyone, and many 
optional ways to invest one’s time?   What if one didn’t need a wage at all?  
What if you had to decide for yourself what was worth doing?  Heck, what if one 
(some post-human) didn’t even need food and didn’t need to reproduce?

Sounds Utopian... erh... Dystopian... no... UTOPIAN!   Uhm... I just hope 
posthumans collectively find the rest of us boring enough to leave alone and 
interesting enough to not need to extinct us.   Homo Neanderthalenses had a 
long run (~.4My?) before Homo Sapiens Sapiens found our way into their 
territory and apparently ran over them with our aggressive adaptivity (over a 
period of tens of thousands of years).   I suspect *some* trans/post humans 
will also have a somewhat more virulent (or at least very short time-constant) 
adaptivity indistinguishable (to us) from extermination-class aggression.
I like the fairy tale Spike Jonze wove on this topic with 
HER<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Her_(film)>, and in particular the virtual 
Alan Watts<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts> conception.  But I highly 
doubt we might be so lucky.   More likely some version of "the Borg" or 
"Cylons" or "Replicators" or (passive aggressive) "Humanoids" (minus the 
gratuitous anthropomorphism).   To us, it will probably look more like a "grey 
goo" scenario.  Or perhaps more aptly hyperspectral rainbow-goo.
At the current rate of change/acceleration/jerk in technosocial change I may 
even live to see the whites of the eyes of the hypersonic train headlights I 
mistook for "light at the end of the tunnel".
I'm going to go now to get my telescoping (drywall stilts) runner's legs fit in 
place of the organic ones I grew (and then abused/neglected) over the past 65 
years.I'm holding out for AR corneal transplants for a few more months, I 
think it will be worth the long wait for the upgraded features and the new 
neural lace interface specs.
- Sieve
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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

It is weird there are orders of magnitude of variability.   I wonder if it is 
differences in spatial distribution of the different vaccines?   Ethnicity?   
Prevalence?
-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 8:06 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

Attached.

Missing Arkansas, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Iowa, Kansas, Maryland, 
Missouri, New York, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Wyoming.

On 8/10/21 4:43 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> I am sure it is just dieseling at this point, but I was pleased to see the 
> following article:
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-i
> nfections-vaccines.html 
>  infections-vaccines.html> (I usually get to these things late; y’all 
> probably have read it already)
> 
> In reading the first table, on hospitalization and death fractions by 
> vax/unvax, I was thinking “okay, now since we have vaccinated 
> fractions by date, we could do a covariance plot, and of course could 
> then do more involved multiple regressions on dummy variables as we 
> could find them.”  (No pun meant on “dummy variable”, though I am 
> unable to miss it myself.  Things like measures of hospital 
> performance, coverage of masking rules or other public health 
> measures, population density and gathering density, etc.  Some of 
> these to be proxies for fraction exposed, which is hard to get at.)
> 
> But then that is just where the article goes.  It’s funny how a pair made of 
> a careful writer and a lazy reader can be an unhelpful combination.  The text 
> leading to the second table says "people who were not fully vaccinated were 
> hospitalized with Covid-19 at least five times more often than fully 
> vaccinated people, according to the analysis, and they died at least eight 
> times more often.”  I remember the nice passage in John Paulos’s book 
> “Innumeracy”, where (to make some point, which I now forget), he comments on 
> why a sign over the highway “Entering New York, Population at least 6” is not 
> particularly informative, though quite true.
> 
> Look then at the distribution of multipliers in the table.  For the “at least 
> five times” column, the first six entries, alphabetically, are 75x, 17x, 47x, 
> 68x, 22, 148x, 161x, and likewise for the “eight times” column. Ahh, if the 
> American Public would only tolerate being shown a histogram giving the whole 
> distribution at a glance….  Of course, if I were not lazy, I could find and 
> download the data and make my own histogram.
> 
> But, credit to those authors.  Within the bounds of what is permitted to 
> them, this is a useful data digest.
> 
> Eric

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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

Consider deaths in Louisiana (20) vs. Texas (90).   Both states with lots of 
obesity and similar weather.  

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 10:52 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

It would be interesting to plot some geographical data about comorbidities, 
particularly obesity.

On 8/11/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> It is weird there are orders of magnitude of variability.   I wonder if it is 
> differences in spatial distribution of the different vaccines?   Ethnicity?   
> Prevalence?
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 8:06 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
> Attached.
> 
> Missing Arkansas, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Iowa, Kansas, Maryland, 
> Missouri, New York, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Wyoming.
> 
> On 8/10/21 4:43 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>> I am sure it is just dieseling at this point, but I was pleased to see the 
>> following article:
>> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-
>> i
>> nfections-vaccines.html
>> <https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough
>> - infections-vaccines.html> (I usually get to these things late; 
>> y’all probably have read it already)
>>
>> In reading the first table, on hospitalization and death fractions by 
>> vax/unvax, I was thinking “okay, now since we have vaccinated 
>> fractions by date, we could do a covariance plot, and of course could 
>> then do more involved multiple regressions on dummy variables as we 
>> could find them.”  (No pun meant on “dummy variable”, though I am 
>> unable to miss it myself.  Things like measures of hospital 
>> performance, coverage of masking rules or other public health 
>> measures, population density and gathering density, etc.  Some of 
>> these to be proxies for fraction exposed, which is hard to get at.)
>>
>> But then that is just where the article goes.  It’s funny how a pair made of 
>> a careful writer and a lazy reader can be an unhelpful combination.  The 
>> text leading to the second table says "people who were not fully vaccinated 
>> were hospitalized with Covid-19 at least five times more often than fully 
>> vaccinated people, according to the analysis, and they died at least eight 
>> times more often.”  I remember the nice passage in John Paulos’s book 
>> “Innumeracy”, where (to make some point, which I now forget), he comments on 
>> why a sign over the highway “Entering New York, Population at least 6” is 
>> not particularly informative, though quite true.
>>
>> Look then at the distribution of multipliers in the table.  For the “at 
>> least five times” column, the first six entries, alphabetically, are 75x, 
>> 17x, 47x, 68x, 22, 148x, 161x, and likewise for the “eight times” column. 
>> Ahh, if the American Public would only tolerate being shown a histogram 
>> giving the whole distribution at a glance….  Of course, if I were not lazy, 
>> I could find and download the data and make my own histogram.
>>
>> But, credit to those authors.  Within the bounds of what is permitted to 
>> them, this is a useful data digest.
>>
>> Eric
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential technological growth.

[Marcus Daniels]

More grumbling:  The folks that aren't wearing seat belts may be costing us 
money, but they aren't endangering the people going to bat for them like Renee. 
 

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 12:02 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
technological growth.

Well, there is this:

What Do Full Hospitals Really Tell Us About COVID?
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/08/09/what-do-full-hospitals-really-tell-us-about-covid/

I mean, even Renee's ED up here in WA is full every day, with ambulance 
paramedics caring for patients in the hallways until an ED bed frees up. So I 
can only imagine what LA's or TX's hospitals are like. But TX is state of the 
art in medicine, especially cardiology. So perhaps LA's numbers are way off? 
Maybe there's a lot of people in LA who *would* be hospitalized if they lived 
in TX?

On 8/11/21 11:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Consider deaths in Louisiana (20) vs. Texas (90).   Both states with lots of 
> obesity and similar weather.  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 10:52 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
> technological growth.
> 
> It would be interesting to plot some geographical data about comorbidities, 
> particularly obesity.
> 
> On 8/11/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> It is weird there are orders of magnitude of variability.   I wonder if it 
>> is differences in spatial distribution of the different vaccines?   
>> Ethnicity?   Prevalence?
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2021 8:06 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] off-label technologies, exaptatiion and exponential 
>> technological growth.
>>
>> Attached.
>>
>> Missing Arkansas, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Iowa, Kansas, Maryland, 
>> Missouri, New York, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Wyoming.
>>
>> On 8/10/21 4:43 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>>> I am sure it is just dieseling at this point, but I was pleased to see the 
>>> following article:
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough
>>> -
>>> i
>>> nfections-vaccines.html
>>> <https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthroug
>>> h
>>> - infections-vaccines.html> (I usually get to these things late; 
>>> y’all probably have read it already)
>>>
>>> In reading the first table, on hospitalization and death fractions 
>>> by vax/unvax, I was thinking “okay, now since we have vaccinated 
>>> fractions by date, we could do a covariance plot, and of course 
>>> could then do more involved multiple regressions on dummy variables 
>>> as we could find them.”  (No pun meant on “dummy variable”, though I 
>>> am unable to miss it myself.  Things like measures of hospital 
>>> performance, coverage of masking rules or other public health 
>>> measures, population density and gathering density, etc.  Some of 
>>> these to be proxies for fraction exposed, which is hard to get at.)
>>>
>>> But then that is just where the article goes.  It’s funny how a pair made 
>>> of a careful writer and a lazy reader can be an unhelpful combination.  The 
>>> text leading to the second table says "people who were not fully vaccinated 
>>> were hospitalized with Covid-19 at least five times more often than fully 
>>> vaccinated people, according to the analysis, and they died at least eight 
>>> times more often.”  I remember the nice passage in John Paulos’s book 
>>> “Innumeracy”, where (to make some point, which I now forget), he comments 
>>> on why a sign over the highway “Entering New York, Population at least 6” 
>>> is not particularly informative, though quite true.
>>>
>>> Look then at the distribution of multipliers in the table.  For the “at 
>>> least five times” column, the first six entries, alphabetically, are 75x, 
>>> 17x, 47x, 68x, 22, 148x, 161x, and likewise for the “eight times” column. 
>>> Ahh, if the American Public would only tolerate being shown a histogram 
>>> giving the whole distribution at a glance….  Of course, if I were not lazy, 
>>> I could find and download the data and make my own histogram.
>>>
>>> But, credit to those authors.  Within the bounds of what is permitted to 
>>> them, this is a useful data digest.
>&

[FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Marcus Daniels]

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid

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Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

[Marcus Daniels]

mectin that do give 
benefits?

I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see 
references below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I 
really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have better 
information? I'd like to know.

References:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/

https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/

https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/

Pieter



On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 23:13, 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Pieter

Did you perhaps leave out a link?  Which study?

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2021 12:09 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ivermectin, nope

I believe this study is most probably correct.

Help me if I'm wrong. It proves that according to a specific protocol, there 
are no benefits against covid  in using ivermectin. Does that mean that there 
are no other prophylaxis protocols that include ivermectin that do give 
benefits?

I'd like to make sense of what's happening in India. According to some (see 
reference below), the use of ivermectin is effective against covid in India. I 
really don't know how reliable these sources are. Does anyone have better 
information? I'd like to know.

References:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-208785/v1/d6ff79a3-d354-4aba-a6b0-4bc123bbd225.pdf
https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2021/04/29/when-india-stopped-prescribing-ivermectin-and-started-vaccinating-deaths-shot-up/
https://nonvenipacem.com/2021/07/31/india-crushed-covid-using-ivermectin-and-you-can-too/
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/elites-worried-covid-cases-india-plummet-government-promotes-ivermectin-hydroxychloroquine-use/

Pieter






On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 at 17:34, Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid
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Re: [FRIAM] placebo effect

[Marcus Daniels]

This sounds right to me.. after having several shelter dogs.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/wild-animals-ptsd/619736/


On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:34 AM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:

 https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-08-11/ivermectin-no-effect-covid

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Re: [FRIAM] pan→endemic

[Marcus Daniels]

What I worry about is the contribution of IgM for tracking the evolving virus.  
 How do people that need therapeutic immune suppression (e.g. Rituxan) decide 
how to time wiping out their B cells?  Great the IgG is doing its thing, but 
what is happening in these breakthrough cases?

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2021 12:08 PM
To: FriAM 
Subject: [FRIAM] pan→endemic

Great explainer for pan→endemic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRjIuC2eZE

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Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

[Marcus Daniels]

Just don't invite her back until the pandemic has become endemic.   A 
distinction without a difference but then she can win the argument.  :-)

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 12:54 PM
To: FriAM 
Subject: [FRIAM] vax v unvax


S ... our house cleaner is anti-vax. My friends tell me we should fire her. 
I've resisted confronting her over it. But hospitals being overrun influenced 
me to press her a little bit. I claimed that the majority of hospitalizations 
are the unvaxxed. She claimed that down near her (I think closer to Centralia, 
WA), it was flipped, that the majority of hospitalizations were vaccinated. We 
had the usual conversation where she ended with "you believe your data and I 
believe my data" blather. So I decided to see if I could find news articles 
claiming the majority of hospitalized covid cases are the vaccinated. And I 
found this:

Higher Death, Hospitalization Rates Among Vaccinated Individuals: UK COVID-19 
Data https://www.visiontimes.com/2021/07/04/deaths-hospital-vaccinated-uk.html

Most COVID-19 Patients at Israel Hospital Fully Vaccinated, Doctor Calls 
Mandates ‘Diabolic’
https://www.visiontimes.com/2021/08/08/israel-hospital-vaccinated.html

They're both from the "Vision Times", which looks to me like a Falun Gong 
outlet, popular with Trumpists, anti-CCP, etc. So, I don't really want to do 
any debunking or verification. I *want* to write it off as garbage. But their 
source: 
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001359/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_16.pdf
 seems legit. And the numbers in the article seem to match Table 4.

Plugging in the numbers from the latest briefing: 
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201

It really does seem to show that the death rate among vaxxed is higher than 
that among unvaxxed.

The LifeSiteNews site is obviously troll nonsense. But my concern is mostly 
about that tech report from the UK and Herzog Hospital. Are these counter 
examples to the NYT unvax/vax data? Are they small enough to be within error?

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Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

[Marcus Daniels]

Another hypothesis is that they tend to be less engaged in the economy and 
their communities and so are thus less susceptible; smaller social networks and 
lower spatial density.  And further they attach themselves to these crazy ideas 
because no one ever has the opportunity to push back except people that go way 
out of their way like Glen.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2021 1:09 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

This is one that it would be nice to see broken down by age and other 
conditions.

If unvaxxed hospitalizations are a true “cross section of America” (like jury 
duty), whereas the vaxxed ones are mainly old or sick with something else, that 
would be an important variable for deriving a risk profile  by category.

Time, time, time, to chase things down….

Eric

> On Aug 19, 2021, at 4:53 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> 
> 
> S ... our house cleaner is anti-vax. My friends tell me we should fire 
> her. I've resisted confronting her over it. But hospitals being overrun 
> influenced me to press her a little bit. I claimed that the majority of 
> hospitalizations are the unvaxxed. She claimed that down near her (I think 
> closer to Centralia, WA), it was flipped, that the majority of 
> hospitalizations were vaccinated. We had the usual conversation where she 
> ended with "you believe your data and I believe my data" blather. So I 
> decided to see if I could find news articles claiming the majority of 
> hospitalized covid cases are the vaccinated. And I found this:
> 
> Higher Death, Hospitalization Rates Among Vaccinated Individuals: UK 
> COVID-19 Data
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.visiontimes.co
> m%2f2021%2f07%2f04%2fdeaths-hospital-vaccinated-uk.html&c=E,1,S5wT7eG_
> LxnTLuUE1RbuVEziaTP99eeGAnZxv_dtTYhpTiIkicxQt2mvokLXVbixkXhDcXvoLjNg1n
> GUqSLe66RnTqmVs_5EGMgv3Z6cPUYQEg,,&typo=1
> 
> Most COVID-19 Patients at Israel Hospital Fully Vaccinated, Doctor Calls 
> Mandates ‘Diabolic’
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.visiontimes.co
> m%2f2021%2f08%2f08%2fisrael-hospital-vaccinated.html&c=E,1,FDPrPMNiU5e
> 621cpzQhoViPiTlcpkww8iHTLVFR9vwhMrJ_5m1j77NIXnZYqEweYmhJcGmbR5PUWpuOvQ
> F1ZPV23_7Fw9AKvzzPGnjmS-w,,&typo=1
> 
> They're both from the "Vision Times", which looks to me like a Falun Gong 
> outlet, popular with Trumpists, anti-CCP, etc. So, I don't really want to do 
> any debunking or verification. I *want* to write it off as garbage. But their 
> source: 
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2fgovernment%2fuploads%2fsystem%2fuploads%2fattachment_data%2ffile%2f1001359%2fVariants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_16.pdf&c=E,1,Z0AX7_CvU6zmg1ca9s0IY3_E3dshyhV2o2XdB9IZiLRuF4FqVWdK_4ijYuyJIk-wyRPEoaaRJUlchbHLmor1XP3Y-0_ioCec73m-PpoXtafAhLUS702P8MUqhA,,&typo=1
>  seems legit. And the numbers in the article seem to match Table 4.
> 
> Plugging in the numbers from the latest briefing: 
> https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars
> -cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201
> 
> It really does seem to show that the death rate among vaxxed is higher than 
> that among unvaxxed.
> 
> The LifeSiteNews site is obviously troll nonsense. But my concern is mostly 
> about that tech report from the UK and Herzog Hospital. Are these counter 
> examples to the NYT unvax/vax data? Are they small enough to be within error?
> 
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
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Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

[Marcus Daniels]

Show respect by showing her the door.   If someone wants clean contracts that 
don't stress their emotional modulation, give it to them.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 7:04 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

I appreciate that. But while I'm taking her and her ideas seriously, discussing 
them calmly while holding a cup of coffee, people who hold those very same 
ideas are carrying AR-15 rifles and Don't Tread on Me flags while marching 
around downtown in desert fatigues, claiming they'll break into the legislature 
later that day.

And I am the bully? ... The world has gone mad.


On 8/18/21 4:45 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> Since you are asking for an opinion, I believe that abstaining from her 
> service because you feel that your household is at risk directly or at risk 
> of becoming a vector for the disease is reasonable. OTOH, actions intended to 
> coerce/coax her economically comes too near to bullying for my tastes.


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Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

[Marcus Daniels]

Whatever happened to getting paid a lot of money to anticipate the wishes of 
your employer?

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 8:22 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

Maybe. But we pay her $150 for 3 hours of work. That's $50/hr. She also takes 
things we no longer want, like my old acoustic guitar, and sells them on ebay. 
Saves us a trip to Goodwill. So, while tipping her seems reasonable, I feel 
like we're already treating her quite well. There's a point where giving 
someone money is, or feels like, coercion.

Renee's bosses, for example, are offering their exhausted employees *bonus* 
money for taking shifts left open by covid quarantining and otherwise 
sick/exhausted employees. But they won't hire more people. They (including 
Renee') think positively about such bonuses. My advice is to tell them to fuck 
off. "Keep your damned money. What we need are more employees so we don't burn 
out and quit." But they wouldn't be nurses if they thought the way I think. 8^D


On 8/19/21 8:08 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 10:15 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  > wrote:
> 
> Excellent. Thanks for the Gelman and Morris explanations.
> 
> As for paying for a couple of days off for Tami, she's only here for ~3 
> hours every 2 weeks. So, it's unclear how to go about giving her 2 days 
> off... I'd gladly pay her $100 or so to go get the free vaccine. But my guess 
> is that would be insulting.
> 
> 
> Give her a tip, hope for the best, but expect nothing?


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Re: [FRIAM] Medical treatments for some or for all

[Marcus Daniels]

Eric writes:

“I have wondered whether trump in the presidency was like an adjuvant in a 
vaccine.  Just having the antigen leaves room for highly variable responses, 
because if you don’t manage the inflammatory response that initiates the immune 
response, you have only a weak control system.  Trump was so awful in so many 
dimensions that he triggers inflammation in those who would have remained 
asleep under Clinton.”

The mask protests like this one..

https://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2021/08/19/mask-wars-unrest-flores-pkg-dlt-vpx.cnn

..strike me as something that M. Night Shyamalan could not even invent.   Say 
the guy at 1:40.
I should be thinking of these folks as my fellow citizens?   Really?

Is it just me or is maybe the “inflammation” getting a little out of control?  
For example,
the other day I was driving down a narrow part of the road in my residential 
area and pulled off to the side to let a car pass that was coming the other 
way.   He (white middle-aged man) was not signaling, but as soon as I spent 
five seconds off the side to let him pass he started screaming at me and waving 
his fist out the car window.   Apparently I had dared to block his driveway.   
Is it really that hard for some people to get through their day?

It increasingly seems to me that maybe there is just all this crazy just below 
the surface, and all that can be done is to keep the inflammation down.

Marcus
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Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

[Marcus Daniels]

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6557/931

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/595bda4abebafb281989df79/t/5bf79fcc1ae6cf43c28db3ed/154295497

On Aug 19, 2021, at 8:54 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

I know, right? Damned millennial hustlers with their 10 side-jobs and 
gluten-free diets. Get off my lawn!

On 8/19/21 8:31 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Whatever happened to getting paid a lot of money to anticipate the wishes of 
your employer?

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2021 8:22 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

Maybe. But we pay her $150 for 3 hours of work. That's $50/hr. She also takes 
things we no longer want, like my old acoustic guitar, and sells them on ebay. 
Saves us a trip to Goodwill. So, while tipping her seems reasonable, I feel 
like we're already treating her quite well. There's a point where giving 
someone money is, or feels like, coercion.

Renee's bosses, for example, are offering their exhausted employees *bonus* 
money for taking shifts left open by covid quarantining and otherwise 
sick/exhausted employees. But they won't hire more people. They (including 
Renee') think positively about such bonuses. My advice is to tell them to fuck 
off. "Keep your damned money. What we need are more employees so we don't burn 
out and quit." But they wouldn't be nurses if they thought the way I think. 8^D


On 8/19/21 8:08 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:


On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 10:15 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

   Excellent. Thanks for the Gelman and Morris explanations.

   As for paying for a couple of days off for Tami, she's only here for ~3 
hours every 2 weeks. So, it's unclear how to go about giving her 2 days off... 
I'd gladly pay her $100 or so to go get the free vaccine. But my guess is that 
would be insulting.


Give her a tip, hope for the best, but expect nothing?


--
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order

[Marcus Daniels]

Robotics seem inevitable for keeping the pressure on for this sort of situation.

https://youtu.be/j0z4FweCy4M


On Aug 20, 2021, at 5:10 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:


Why have the Taliban been able to conquer Afghanistan so quickly, although they 
were hopelessly outgunned for almost 20 years as the article in the Atlantic 
describes ("Brother... it's too cold to jihad") ? It seems as if Afghanistan 
exists only in two stable modes: tribalism where the country is divided among 
clans and tribes, and radical Islamism in form of Taliban rulership. Both are 
among the oldest forms of political order forms according to Francis Fukuyama 
(who wrote two books about the development of political order which I am 
currently reading)
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/what-i-learned-while-eavesdropping-on-the-taliban/619807/

-J.
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Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order

[Marcus Daniels]

Nimble, weaponized drones in the air and on land, having dozens of sensors 
across the electromagnetic spectrum as well as advanced machine learning 
capabilities, could be used to hunt down targets in these hopeless states.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 6:07 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order

You mean we should forget about tribalism and Islamism because the future 
belongs to robots anyway? The new Tesla robot looks creepy. I want a real R2D2.

-J.


 Original message 
From: Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>
Date: 8/20/21 14:42 (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order

Robotics seem inevitable for keeping the pressure on for this sort of situation.

https://youtu.be/j0z4FweCy4M




On Aug 20, 2021, at 5:10 AM, Jochen Fromm 
mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:

Why have the Taliban been able to conquer Afghanistan so quickly, although they 
were hopelessly outgunned for almost 20 years as the article in the Atlantic 
describes ("Brother... it's too cold to jihad") ? It seems as if Afghanistan 
exists only in two stable modes: tribalism where the country is divided among 
clans and tribes, and radical Islamism in form of Taliban rulership. Both are 
among the oldest forms of political order forms according to Francis Fukuyama 
(who wrote two books about the development of political order which I am 
currently reading)
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/what-i-learned-while-eavesdropping-on-the-taliban/619807/

-J.
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Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order

[Marcus Daniels]

On Sunday, Blinken didn’t make it sound like that status was assured.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 8:13 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order

Daniel Suarez's book, Kill Decision, is a nice treatment of this scenario - 
both "good" and "bad" guys.

But it is worthless, because the Taliban are now 'heads of state' and we are 
not allowed to "hunt them down."

davew


On Fri, Aug 20, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Nimble, weaponized drones in the air and on land, having dozens of sensors 
across the electromagnetic spectrum as well as advanced machine learning 
capabilities, could be used to hunt down targets in these hopeless states.


From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 6:07 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order



You mean we should forget about tribalism and Islamism because the future 
belongs to robots anyway? The new Tesla robot looks creepy. I want a real R2D2.



-J.





 Original message 

From: Marcus Daniels mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>>

Date: 8/20/21 14:42 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order



Robotics seem inevitable for keeping the pressure on for this sort of situation.



https://youtu.be/j0z4FweCy4M




On Aug 20, 2021, at 5:10 AM, Jochen Fromm 
mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:



Why have the Taliban been able to conquer Afghanistan so quickly, although they 
were hopelessly outgunned for almost 20 years as the article in the Atlantic 
describes ("Brother... it's too cold to jihad") ? It seems as if Afghanistan 
exists only in two stable modes: tribalism where the country is divided among 
clans and tribes, and radical Islamism in form of Taliban rulership. Both are 
among the oldest forms of political order forms according to Francis Fukuyama 
(who wrote two books about the development of political order which I am 
currently reading)

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/what-i-learned-while-eavesdropping-on-the-taliban/619807/



-J.
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Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order

[Marcus Daniels]

Now that they have taken government buildings and so forth, there will be 
something to bomb again if they act up.   We’re clearly better at breaking 
things than fixing them.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Friday, August 20, 2021 8:26 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Development of political order

Marcus, the Taliban were the biggest recipients of American largesse during the 
war, along with the major defense contractors (military stocks outperformed the 
stock market by 58%).  We put so much money into Afghanistan over 20 years (at 
least $1trillion) the country couldn't absorb it all, and so it migrated into 
the hands of a corrupt Afghan government, the warlords, and also the Taliban.  
The Taliban had a LOT of resources thanks to us.  Craig Whitlock's book, "The 
Afghanistan Papers" is just out explaining all this.

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 6:42 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Robotics seem inevitable for keeping the pressure on for this sort of situation.

https://youtu.be/j0z4FweCy4M



On Aug 20, 2021, at 5:10 AM, Jochen Fromm 
mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:

Why have the Taliban been able to conquer Afghanistan so quickly, although they 
were hopelessly outgunned for almost 20 years as the article in the Atlantic 
describes ("Brother... it's too cold to jihad") ? It seems as if Afghanistan 
exists only in two stable modes: tribalism where the country is divided among 
clans and tribes, and radical Islamism in form of Taliban rulership. Both are 
among the oldest forms of political order forms according to Francis Fukuyama 
(who wrote two books about the development of political order which I am 
currently reading)
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/what-i-learned-while-eavesdropping-on-the-taliban/619807/

-J.
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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org<http://emergentdiplomacy.org>
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @merle110

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Re: [FRIAM] Steaming services

[Marcus Daniels]

Imogen Heap started a project called the Mycelia music network a few years ago. 
   Since then there are some other blockchain-tech companies like Audius.co 
that aim to connect the consumer and artists directly.   I guess my expectation 
is that a lot of what makes an artist successful is marketing and organized 
advertising.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2021 6:55 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Steaming services

My daughter, now 29, had an iPad when she was a young adolescent.  I asked her 
once how many songs were on it.  She said there were 8000.  My understanding 
was that they should cost 99 cents each.  I asked how she got so many.  She 
says each kid copies all the songs on all their friends' iPads.  There must 
have been a way to avoid duplication.  I told her I hoped she didn't go to 
jail.  Someone told me that the music companies liked this because it made 
their recordings popular.  Hard to believe.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 7:47 PM Curt McNamara 
mailto:curt...@gmail.com>> wrote:
The streaming services are basically ripping the artists off.
https://freeyourmusic.com/blog/how-much-does-spotify-pay-per-stream

As others have noted, live shows, merch and CDs are the only way artists make 
money anymore.

So yeah the streaming is 'good' for consumers ...

Curt

On Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 2:42 PM Frank Wimberly 
mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:

He *hates* Alexa, Amazon, and especially Amazon Music.


What is there to hate?  They just play music you request.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 22, 2021, 12:47 PM Steve Smith 
mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
On 8/22/21 8:28 AM, ⛧ glen wrote:


It does both, perhaps counterintuitively. I'd argue it facilitates traffic 
between demes/cliques, but inhibits the content of demes/cliques.


I am a sucker for local AM radio when traveling... to put my finger on the 
pulse of the locals, as it were.  What music they listen to, what their 
news-of-choice leans toward, and what they are buying/selling/trading with one 
another.  "If you can hear this station, what you hear *might* be relevant to 
you *right now*"

When internet radio stations started popping up (KTAO in Taos being an early 
adopter), I found myself sampling these local stations around the world... one 
in particular being in Australia (forget the call sign/town) and having a 
strong familiarity to the myriad country AND western stations up and down the 
rockies and out into the plains of the US West, but with an Aussie accented DJ 
of course.Unfortunately it didn't replicate the experience because I was 
patently NOT there... I could NOT plan a detour to catch the local farmer's 
market or check out a local joint (where there burgers would have pineapple and 
plum sauce instead of pickles and ketchup)...   But what I was most struck by 
was that they were playing 95% American Mainstream (C&W) music and referencing 
OUR icons of music deeply/exclusively.   Only occasionally would I catch a 
"local" artist (Australeonesia?)  I felt simultaneously expanded and 
constrained.

When I moved to a small city/big town on the border (DouglasAZ/Agua Prieta SA) 
our first neighbors were a Mexican American family who were one of the local 
bands that played every venue, mostly rock but with their own ranchera 
stylization often.   They would sit around evenings playing a wide range of 
music, including the father, a sister and a younger brother (maybe 5? too young 
to participate in the public events).   We moved away from that house within 6 
months but I continued to hear them the whole 8 years I lived in that town, 
they probably played at both of my proms and any other public musical event I 
might have attended.   What never crossed my mind (until now) was that for the 
4 years I was a Disc Jockey, I never heard them play on air, nor was I 
motivated/inclined to seek them out.  Why not?  Linda Ronstadt (100 miles away) 
was hitting it big from similar roots, why not them?   I guess because they 
weren't on the Billboard Top 100 charts they sent us every month, telling us 
what was hot and what was not?  They had no route to get known beyond the local 
bars and public venues.

Both of my daughters partnered with aspiring musicians as they came of age.  
There have been several bands involved and those partners even occasionally 
found time to make music together (though never recorded together).   These 
bands never made it beyond local recognition...   "Billy and the Belmonts", 
"Oktober People", "Weapons of Mass Destruction" all come to mind.   And yet one 
of them was going on a self-promoted tour of the west when we were in Berkeley, 
CA for a year and in fact, totally by coincidence, had gotten booked at an 
Irish Pub ("Starry Plough") just a short walk 

Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Marcus Daniels]

Check out Tesla AI day..  Speaking to that concern, they collect tons of data 
and use very high fidelity simulators.

https://youtu.be/j0z4FweCy4M

On Aug 23, 2021, at 5:24 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:


Then Cory Doctorow ponders the other eternal question: is this all bullshit?

https://doctorow.medium.com/machine-learnings-crumbling-foundations-bd11efa22b0

-- rec --

On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 3:18 AM Jochen Fromm 
mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:
"In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality, 
consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering 
problems", argues this Guardian article.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence

-J.

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Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Marcus Daniels]

And wouldn’t you know it is from C H I N A!

> On Aug 24, 2021, at 7:54 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Those big wasps you got out there in the NW, they're kind of pretty to.  
> Shall I root for those?
> 
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 10:45 AM
> To: FriAM 
> Subject: [FRIAM] Kill it!
> 
> 
> ‘Kill it!’ US officials advise no mercy for lanternfly summer invasion 
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/24/pennsylvania-lanternfly-summer-invasion
> 
> Am I so wrong to root for the bad guy? ... such a good lookin' bug.
> 
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Marcus Daniels]

Now this brings to mind “All we have to fear is fear itself.” -- a forecasted, 
often exaggerated sense of danger.   The stories of people who are gasping for 
breath in an ICU but are afraid of the public health security state and losing 
their liberty.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 12:37 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

Jochen,

At the risk of being tiresome (the Erics will agree that I am, but for quite 
different reasons), any object, organic or silicon, that systematically avoids 
a class of stimuli when those stimuli intrude on them, is doing fear.  Whether 
they are having fear is a question of language.   But for a Pragmati[ci]st such 
as myself, the language is crucial insofar as it determines where we will look 
next in our exploration of the phenomenon.  If we are led to look away from the 
whole organism and its surroundings, we are missing the boat on fear.

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Monday, August 23, 2021 3:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

I have a small remote controlled R2D2 robot from Sphero. A present of my wife. 
If it is remote controlled it behaves as if it has intentions, desires and 
emotions, but of course it does not. The behavior just mirrors my intentions.
https://youtu.be/YVwszeU3TVI

I would say real emotions are the tool used by genes to control their survival 
vehicles which work by setting up different levels of action readiness in 
certain situations (as Nico Frijda says). It should be possible to create 
artificial emotions that work like this.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Emotions.html?id=QkNuuVf-pBMC&redir_esc=y

For example if we want a robot that autocharges itself we must create some sort 
of "hunger for energy". If we want a robot that protects itself against 
physical danger we must provide it with a sense of fear.

-J.


 Original message 
From: Pieter Steenekamp 
mailto:piet...@randcontrols.co.za>>
Date: 8/23/21 12:05 (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

The creators of the Aibo robot dog say it has ‘real emotions and instinct’. 
This is obviously not true, it's just an illusion.

But then, according to Daniel Dennett, human consciousness is just an illusion.
https://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/illusionism.pdf

On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 at 09:18, Jochen Fromm 
mailto:j...@cas-group.net>> wrote:
"In today’s AI universe, all the eternal questions (about intentionality, 
consciousness, free will, mind-body problem...) have become engineering 
problems", argues this Guardian article.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/aug/10/dogs-inner-life-what-robot-pet-taught-me-about-consciousness-artificial-intelligence

-J.

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Re: [FRIAM] Computer Monitors now?

[Marcus Daniels]

I got a Dell S3220DGF that was on sale a while back and I think was a good 
value.
A better value than my Samsung Odyssey 9 which is still the best!
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Carl Tollander
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2021 6:45 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Computer Monitors now?

Best Buy,  Wall in back of the computer sales desk, to your right as you come 
in the front door.   See them in action.  There's often a sale.
Viewsonic is still good.  There are some small TVs that can be monitors.
Make sure your computer can drive the thing.   Just because the connectors fit 
doesn't mean the cable is compatible.  There's HDMI and then there's HDMI.



On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 7:27 PM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
lol this is Murphy's law or something? I have a ridiculously old Dell 15-20 
inch computer monitor. It's stupidly old and just about falling apart. I need 
to replace it because it's got a crack. The crack has been there since I got it 
years ago., it started as a small dink in the monitor. I'd guess from shipping. 
this Monday it turned it's growing. And turning into the grand canyon. It's 
created a zone of dead pixels or however LCDs work.
Either way, now in the market for a Frugal AF monitor. Reviews for budget 
monitors say Viewsonic. (I didn't know they were still in business).It doesn't 
need to be a "gamer monitor" with 200pica-second refresh rates or anything. I 
only ask that it just fucking work. The GPU I have does HDMI.

Sigh. Fuck.
Where do I look for cheep AF, but won't fall apart instantly monitors? Googling 
lead me to Wally World. I am beyond lost for what to look for, and genuinely 
don't know what in 2021 is considered Budget or sanely priced.
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

< The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically 
you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and 
reasonableness leaves the building. >

These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:04 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Maybe I can steelman it, since I have so many personal relationships with 
anti-vax people. 

When I look around at the world, I see a clear difference between those people 
like me and those people who seem very different from me. Interacting with the 
people who are very different is stressful and time consuming. For example, 
explaining to my oncologist that it's very difficult for me to follow the diet 
she recommends, she being a very petite Asian, me being a 180 lb white dude who 
needs to be strong enough to pick up a 900 lb motorcycle when I drop it. Even 
beyond the cultural differences between us, there are blatant physiological and 
day-to-day context differences.

These tiny differences are easy to let roll off, unless someone chooses to dig 
in their heels and make a stink about it. When someone, particular an 
*authority* like my oncologist, digs in and makes a stink about some 
"suggestion" they make on how to live my life, I get irritated, which 
eventually grows into anger. I'm also reflective enough to know that her 
recommendation is Correct, True, right, proper. But when I reflect like that, I 
might become disappointed in myself, squeezing my fat in the mirror or 
whatever. So the anger can turn to insecure self criticism. Or it can simply 
seethe and fester into resentment and distancing from her *and* her kind. 
Neither is a good outcome.

This can go on for decades ... very smart people who I tend to trust, want to 
trust, lead to nothing but resentment or self criticism. Why would I continue 
to do that? Why continue to engage?

Then some distant "authority" comes to me with rhetoric that sounds very 
similar to that of my oncologist ... snooty, know-it-all, "advice" or 
"mandates" for what I should be doing in order to be a moral person. Well, 
screw them! Not only have I lived for decades as I am, without being a 
vegetarian, without being at some sort of "optimal weight", without taking 
Vitamins every day, etc. Not only that. But I also read things from fairly 
reputable sources that simply contradict what they're telling me! Maybe, rather 
than vegetarianism, I should eat more animal protein and less carbs to get my 
fat % down? Obviously, these authorities don't know everything.

The more they dig in, the more it pushes me to dig in. The more emphatically 
you are pro-vaccine, the more emphatically I become anti-vaccine. Reason and 
reasonableness leaves the building.


On 8/24/21 6:37 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> What can possibly poses people to have a GD tantrum about vaccines.  The 
> cynical of me thinks it's basically a tantrum mixed with deranged and 
> dangerous levels of trolling. While the "Jedi" side er the small part wanting 
> to see the best of these GD raving lunatics. It's, frankly, baffled.
> The powers that be say put a GD mask on, and thank antivaxers.  What 
> is pissing me off and just straitup confusing the ever living *** me  
> is how does this thinking work? Rejecting a compound that'll keep you 
> healthy? For me: I (literally) couldn't get in line fast enough! I 
> think I broke my caregiver who, I wanted to drive me their just in 
> case. Meen while the other extreme are these people having GD tantrum. 
> It's like: here's something that'll help you not get this virus,its 
> free and you just need to get in a line. The first thing they say is: 
> omg! free? why that smacks of [something they read someplace]. And ma 
> freedoms
> 
> Can some please help me get just WTF these people are on, or how the hell 
> anything about how they think can possibly make any sense?


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them in.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday 
thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's 
against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.

You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and be 
more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad 
infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there protesting 
mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're 
anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.

Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention on 
increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary 
tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.


On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

Will you consent to a vaccine?  

Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I 
heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's 
location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of whom 
delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too 
much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny 
bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.

The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take 
care of both covid patients and regular people.


On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them in.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or 
> who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
> 
> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and 
> be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad 
> infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there 
> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, 
> they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
> 
> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention 
> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary 
> tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.
> 
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It must 
happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is here 
again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  If 
enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to 
patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a 
mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, 
getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, no shoes, no 
vaccination, no service.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot 
wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.

Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the 
door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would 
require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that 
govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.

Taking a look at this site: 
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.


On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Will you consent to a vaccine?  
> 
> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> 
> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last 
> I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's 
> location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of 
> whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little 
> too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this 
> fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.
> 
> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take 
> care of both covid patients and regular people.
> 
> 
> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them 
>> in.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or 
>> who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
>>
>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are 
>> rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and 
>> be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad 
>> infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there 
>> protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, 
>> they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
>>
>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention 
>> on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the 
>> anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary 
>> tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
>>
>>
>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.


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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

 the Director General of India's Armed 
Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal 
cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them.

The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are 
fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because 
India's government wanted them to die. 
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563

Sarbajit Roy
New Delhi, India




On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore 
mailto:gil.densm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and 
tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool 
what people can do what we decide to do so.
you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the 
vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to 
map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then 
I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the 
opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made 
using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs 
until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame.



On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It must 
happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is here 
again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  If 
enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to 
patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a 
mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, 
getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, no shoes, no 
vaccination, no service.

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot 
wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.

Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the 
door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would 
require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that 
govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.

Taking a look at this site: 
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.


On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Will you consent to a vaccine?
>
> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last 
> I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's 
> location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of 
> whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little 
> too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this 
> fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.
>
> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take 
> care of both covid patients and regular people.
>
>
> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them 
>> in.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
>> Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, 
>> everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test 

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Marcus Daniels]

I have seen what happens when ferals proliferate.   Out in the country it is 
common to have a few non-domesticated cats around, but they can proliferate 
amongst households.  Look out the window, there is some hunt that is on.   
Culling is easy though.

> On Aug 26, 2021, at 7:08 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> 
> So, a wildlife ecologist friend of mine (who meatspace introduced me to 
> Looney (WSDA employee who discovered murder hornets here (who also hangs at 
> the local pub) [‡])) argues that domestic cats, as an invasive species, are 
> more horrifying than murder hornets, or english ivy, or the new zealand 
> mudsnail, etc. He focuses on how they're merely killing machines, with which 
> I agree. And goes with the usual "keep them inside" rhetoric.
> 
> But I think I landed on an argument that he couldn't respond to. The typical 
> evolutionary argument against domestic cats is that we neuter/spay the ones 
> with the qualities we like, leaving the ferals to reproduce and evolve. And 
> there's plenty of evidence that a clowder of ferals wreaks more havoc on a 
> local ecosystem than a disorganized collection of house cats ever does. 
> (Distributions of house cats territory drop off at more than ~100 m from 
> their home. So unless the cat lives on the border of a wild area, it's impact 
> on wild life is quite small. In contrast, feral clowders end up in wilder 
> areas.)
> 
> To boot, I have an anecdote. When we moved into this house, which is 
> buttressed by a fairly wild ravine with owls and wild rabbits and such, there 
> was a feral clowder living in a dilapidated house at the crook of the ravine 
> (which leads down toward capitol lake). Our alpha, Scooter, kept fighting 
> with at least one of these ferals. He lost quite badly one time, but due to 
> our policy of universal healthcare, Scooter lives to fight again. Now the 
> feral clowder is gone, thereby saving the lives of who knows how many little 
> critters in the ravine. Scooter sporadically brings home a mouse, mole, or 
> "little brown bird". But it's pretty rare now that he's pushing 12 or 13. So, 
> we could say he's an ecologically ethical hunter, even if it's unintentional.
> 
> In the end, though, my wildlife eco friend just loves dogs and hates cats. 
> 8^D My guess is his cognitive structure is more dog-like and mine is more 
> cat-like, after decades of being programmed by our pets.
> 
> 
> [‡] 
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/asian-giant-murder-hornets-new-map-habitat-united-states
> 
>> On 8/24/21 4:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> My first reaction to the subject line is one of my favorite parody
>> attributions to redneck culture:  "it's Diffr'nt, kill it!" but then I
>> read the content and realized it was more apropos than I expected.
>> 
>> I believe that something like "xenophobia" is an adaptive response in
>> many contexts...  we have some pretty deep instincts it seems that let
>> us know to be "askeered" of "spiders and snakes" even if we'd never seen
>> another ape respond that way.  My dog has always been very (properly)
>> fearful of snakes...  otherwise her natural curious aggression would
>> have had her dead-by-snakebite long ago...   she went crazy everytime
>> she saw a rattlesnake but always barked crazily from a good 6-10 feet
>> away.   She never alerted to a non-rattler that I knew of.And in the
>> arms race of survival, it is natural that some "skeery" things will
>> camoflauge as benign or friendly or cute. 
>> 
>> I am always a little nervous when large movements (especially gubbm'nt
>> supported ) try to tap those instincts.  It seems like a bad precedent
>> to encourage formalized xenophobia even against helpless insects.   The
>> Charlottesville (and too many other) white-nationalists chanting "jews
>> will not replace us" and all of Trump's fear-mongering are obvious (and
>> ugly), but aspects of the B(lack) L(ives) M(atter) movement that perhaps
>> overstated police culpability (in general not in specific cases), and
>> Hillary's unfortunate election-forfieting statement calling Trump
>> supporters "deplorables" (plenty of them were, but the brush was too
>> broad and there was probably at least some backlash turnout over that
>> one).  Her "superpredator" comments, etc. in the 90's are another
>> example.  
>> 
>> As for me, I have a nicely expanding set of stands of what is know
>> locally as "Guaco" (critical to the black on black pottery process) in
>> the pueblo nearby but more commonly known as "beeweed" among anglos...
>> it turns out to be a particularly attractive nectar source for the
>> Tarantula Hawk (or Tarantula Wasp), a big ole blue-black  beast that
>> looks like it could stun you with a sting and drag you to it's
>> underground lair where it would insert it's fertilized eggs into your
>> abdomen to hatch and thrive until the larva are ready to emerge and
>> pupate ultimately into more giant scary wasps.   The thing is, this is
>> exactly what they do, but only with Taran

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

Anti-vax needs a justification that can survive peer review.   Because Tucker 
said so and I have a right to my liberty, etc. is not a justification.One 
might be a concern about inflammation.The vaccine will stimulate IGG-M 
production which could exacerbate some auto-immune conditions, and I have that 
auto-immune condition.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 8:28 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side


Glen stated: "Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful."

Is it correct to interpret this statement: anti-vax equates to stupidity in all 
cases without exception?

Such an interpretation would certainly be consistent with the prevailing 
rhetoric. And it very clearly delineates two groups: Them the stupid and Us the 
enlightened.

Am I, for example, stupid; giving no regard to the basis of my being anti-vax, 
for me personally?

[BTW, my analytical evaluation and conclusions did not stop me from getting 
vaccinated despite my antipathy. But my doing so was simply a matter of 
coercion.]

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 8:15 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> Any place but the ER is irrelevant. Other paths to hospital inpatient
> or PT/allergy/optha clinics *should* require proof of vax or PCR test
> results. I agree. Shun the anti-vax. Stupidity must be painful.
>
> But re: ER, I disagree. It's impractical to the point of silliness.
>
> On 8/25/21 10:56 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have 
> > sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It 
> > must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is 
> > here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  
> > If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply 
> > refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't 
> > need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting 
> > allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No 
> > shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
> > On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >
> > That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely 
> > irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a 
> > gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.
> >
> > Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in 
> > the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest 
> > would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws 
> > that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.
> >
> > Taking a look at this site: 
> > https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
> > it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The 
> > actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid 
> > patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.
> >
> >
> > On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >> Will you consent to a vaccine?
> >>
> >> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
> >> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> >> To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
> >>
> >> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. 
> >> (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm 
> >> sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular 
> >> problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to 
> >> lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning 
> >> with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our 
> >> buffer wasn't high enough.
> >>
> >> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and 
> >> take care of both covid patients and regular people.
> >>
> >>
>

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Marcus Daniels]

Having pets I adore and also seeing the reality of feral cats, it is hard not 
to see humans through a similar lens.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 10:01 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

Culling is easy, and they are delicious! Kung Pao Meow!

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:23 AM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I have seen what happens when ferals proliferate.   Out in the country it is 
common to have a few non-domesticated cats around, but they can proliferate 
amongst households.  Look out the window, there is some hunt that is on.   
Culling is easy though.

> On Aug 26, 2021, at 7:08 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ 
> mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> So, a wildlife ecologist friend of mine (who meatspace introduced me to 
> Looney (WSDA employee who discovered murder hornets here (who also hangs at 
> the local pub) [‡])) argues that domestic cats, as an invasive species, are 
> more horrifying than murder hornets, or english ivy, or the new zealand 
> mudsnail, etc. He focuses on how they're merely killing machines, with which 
> I agree. And goes with the usual "keep them inside" rhetoric.
>
> But I think I landed on an argument that he couldn't respond to. The typical 
> evolutionary argument against domestic cats is that we neuter/spay the ones 
> with the qualities we like, leaving the ferals to reproduce and evolve. And 
> there's plenty of evidence that a clowder of ferals wreaks more havoc on a 
> local ecosystem than a disorganized collection of house cats ever does. 
> (Distributions of house cats territory drop off at more than ~100 m from 
> their home. So unless the cat lives on the border of a wild area, it's impact 
> on wild life is quite small. In contrast, feral clowders end up in wilder 
> areas.)
>
> To boot, I have an anecdote. When we moved into this house, which is 
> buttressed by a fairly wild ravine with owls and wild rabbits and such, there 
> was a feral clowder living in a dilapidated house at the crook of the ravine 
> (which leads down toward capitol lake). Our alpha, Scooter, kept fighting 
> with at least one of these ferals. He lost quite badly one time, but due to 
> our policy of universal healthcare, Scooter lives to fight again. Now the 
> feral clowder is gone, thereby saving the lives of who knows how many little 
> critters in the ravine. Scooter sporadically brings home a mouse, mole, or 
> "little brown bird". But it's pretty rare now that he's pushing 12 or 13. So, 
> we could say he's an ecologically ethical hunter, even if it's unintentional.
>
> In the end, though, my wildlife eco friend just loves dogs and hates cats. 
> 8^D My guess is his cognitive structure is more dog-like and mine is more 
> cat-like, after decades of being programmed by our pets.
>
>
> [‡] 
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/asian-giant-murder-hornets-new-map-habitat-united-states
>
>> On 8/24/21 4:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> My first reaction to the subject line is one of my favorite parody
>> attributions to redneck culture:  "it's Diffr'nt, kill it!" but then I
>> read the content and realized it was more apropos than I expected.
>>
>> I believe that something like "xenophobia" is an adaptive response in
>> many contexts...  we have some pretty deep instincts it seems that let
>> us know to be "askeered" of "spiders and snakes" even if we'd never seen
>> another ape respond that way.  My dog has always been very (properly)
>> fearful of snakes...  otherwise her natural curious aggression would
>> have had her dead-by-snakebite long ago...   she went crazy everytime
>> she saw a rattlesnake but always barked crazily from a good 6-10 feet
>> away.   She never alerted to a non-rattler that I knew of.And in the
>> arms race of survival, it is natural that some "skeery" things will
>> camoflauge as benign or friendly or cute.
>>
>> I am always a little nervous when large movements (especially gubbm'nt
>> supported ) try to tap those instincts.  It seems like a bad precedent
>> to encourage formalized xenophobia even against helpless insects.   The
>> Charlottesville (and too many other) white-nationalists chanting "jews
>> will not replace us" and all of Trump's fear-mongering are obvious (and
>> ugly), but aspects of the B(lack) L(ives) M(atter) movement that perhaps
>> overstated police culpability (in general not in specific cases), and
>> Hillary's unfortunate election-forfieting statement calling Trump
>> supporters "deplorables" 

Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their 
lives risky and inconvenient until they do.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his 
words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to 
equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was 
trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute 
assertion.

However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding 
people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this 
kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and probably 
a Trumpista or at least a Republican).

In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is 
to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that
> conflation. I don't.
>
> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished.
> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on
> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with
> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of
> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil
> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The
> story of Job is a stupid story.
>
> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning,
> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I
> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of
> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the
> slightest sense of that word.
>
> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> > "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.
> >
> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

A woman brings in her husband to an ER having a heart attack, and she shows the 
staff vaccinations record for both of them, versus a man that obviously has 
COVID and his wife says there was no vaccination, and they never would consider 
it.  All things being equal if a choice is needed to take one first (because of 
lack of capacity), why should a nurse or doctor prioritize the person who makes 
it clear they have chosen to endanger the hospital workers?  There are 
interviews in the news lately with such people, some of them now dead.  I can 
dig them up if you want.

Yes, I understand there are practicalities make this hard to make policy, but 
as a thought experiment, why give a shit about the latter?   Given finite 
resources, some decisions about how to deploy staff have to be made.  Do these 
resources go to the COVID wing or not?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:22 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side



Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___?  Securing your 
approval?



On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their 
lives risky and inconvenient until they do.


From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side



Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his 
words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to 
equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was 
trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute 
assertion.



However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding 
people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this 
kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and probably 
a Trumpista or at least a Republican).



In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is 
to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.



davew





On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:

> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that

> conflation. I don't.

>

> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished.

> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on

> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with

> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of

> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil

> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The

> story of Job is a stupid story.

>

> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning,

> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I

> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of

> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the

> slightest sense of that word.

>

> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:

> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> > "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.

> >

> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?

> --

> ☤>$ uǝlƃ

>

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>


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Re: [FRIAM] interesting - if true

[Marcus Daniels]

< If these were true, it would be interesting to the extent it belies the 
caricatures of the Republican party as the bastion of the plutocrats and the 
Democratic party as the champion of the working class.>

Did anyone watch Pennyworth?   The father is a possible picture of today's 
anti-liberal-democratic voter.  Yeah, he's a fascist and a servant.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:55 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] interesting - if true

I encountered the following assertions but have not been able to confirm or 
refute.

65% of Americans earning $500,000/yr or more are registered Democrats and 74% 
of those earning $100,000 or less are Registered Republican. (Supposedly, IRS 
is source, but I can find it.)

The 20 wealthiest Congressional Districts have Democratic representatives. (How 
was wealth measured?)

17 of the 20 wealthiest zip codes gave more money to Democrats than 
Republicans. (

More than half of the wealthiest individuals (Forbes list I guess) in the US, 
consistently support, in words and contributions (how would anyone know) 
"liberal democratic" values and causes.

If these were true, it would be interesting to the extent it belies the 
caricatures of the Republican party as the bastion of the plutocrats and the 
Democratic party as the champion of the working class.

davew

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Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Marcus Daniels]

You are made of matter following some trajectory that was initiated with the 
big bang, and you will go where you will go.  There is no "deserve".

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 1:04 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Sarbajit,

If I understand the shape of the globe correctly, you are waking up pretty 
soon, and I would like to pick up the conversation about caste, if you don't 
mind.

I believe the proposition in the subject line.  Given the many ways that 
proposition can be understood as plainly false, I feel that my belief in it 
must be defended.

In what sense equal?  Not in genes.  Not in uterine environment. .  Not in 
early nutrition and cognitive stimulation. Not in social capitol. Not in 
financial capitol.  Not in access to health care.  Not in exposure to future 
parasites.  Not in almost anything that I can think of.   So, why is the 
aphorism not just nonsense.

I find, that if I examine my thinking in this matter, a very primitive 
metaphysics about the moment of an individual's creation.  What follows is 
flagrantly silly, but here it is.   On my account, at the moment of birth a 
soul is taken out of storage and assigned to a body.  By "person" in the 
aphorism, I mean the combination of a particular soul with the particular body. 
 These assignments are at random.  So, for good or ill, no soul deserves the 
body it gets.   I cannot claim credit for my genes, my good uterine 
environment, my social capitol, my financial capitol, my bad hip, the draft 
deferment it provided, my getting a phd at absolute peak of demand for phd's, 
my good education, even my FRIAM membership.  They are all consequences of that 
initial, random assignment.   Now YOU may credit me in some ways, because 
knowing that all these advantages have been assigned to me may make me useful 
or pleasing (or the opposite) in many ways, and that may bring me the 
advantages of your association.  But ==> I <== do not ==>deserve<== those 
advantages.

This odd metaphysics leads me to enormous gratitude for the life I have been 
allowed to live and great sympathy for rigorous taxation of the advantaged, so 
that so much a soul's future is not determined by that moment of assignment.

I have no idea what happens to this primitive metaphysics if I try to integrate 
it with my monism.  The religious scholars among you might recognize as some 
backass weird perversion of Calvinism.


Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

[Marcus Daniels]

A public servant remarked to me that their boss mostly does things to pacify 
unreasonable people.  This in turn encourages more unreasonable behavior.   The 
agency of the unreasonable people is characterized by how much disruption they 
can cause, not by the inherent value of the goals that they have.  The goals 
are just a temporary means by which to demonstrate their agency and process 
their feelings of alienation.   I suggest that this neediness at some point 
becomes toxic and cannot be repaired.   At a company, those people get fired.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 3:16 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Those who seek cooperative or collaborative support, jointly generated, from 
others, should explain themselves to all as contributing a part of the joint 
effort, collaboration, and mutual responsibility.

The same argument applies to not being exploitative in wage negotiations, 
poisoning backyards that can’t efford to push it off, colonialism, etc.

I still think that what one doesn’t know is secondary to the point, though.  
This is all about holding a position that the society you live in is 
illegitimate, and wanting to act out your animosity toward it or contempt for 
it, as a kind of defiant expression of some kind of agency.

Max Rose, I think it was, had some sort of good comment about this.  We have to 
break out of the death spiral of having this as the motivation if we are to 
break out of the death spiral.

Eric




On Aug 27, 2021, at 4:22 AM, Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:


Explain themselves to _? To you? For the purpose of ___?  Securing your 
approval?



On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
They need to explain themselves, and it is entirely appropriate to make their 
lives risky and inconvenient until they do.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2021 12:07 PM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side


Glen is very sensitive to potential misrepresentation/misinterpretation of his 
words, as am I. I merely asked if Glen's sentences, which on their face seem to 
equate anti-vax and stupid, should be interpreted that way. In a sense I was 
trolling him because I know he would not make such a blanket and absolute 
assertion.

However, the entire tenor of the thread, and the public rhetoric regarding 
people holding anti-vax positions seems, to me, to be grounded in exactly this 
kind of assertion: "if you (a person) are anti-vax you are stupid (and probably 
a Trumpista or at least a Republican).

In my  opinion this kind of assertion is wrong, harmful, and, if your goal is 
to increase vaccination rates, entirely counter-productive.

davew


On Thu, Aug 26, 2021, at 10:55 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
> I addressed the stupid people vs stupid acts. Dave makes that
> conflation. I don't.
>
> But re: punishment - I also never claimed stupidity should be punished.
> I claimed stupidity should be painful. As a person who inflicts pain on
> myself daily, on purpose, it would be silly to identify pain with
> punishment. Futher, many of us are affected by chronic pain, often of
> unknown mechanism/origin. Sophistry about the problem of Evil
> notwithstanding, chronic pain is not the universe punishing you. The
> story of Job is a stupid story.
>
> We *could* talk about pain as a mechanism for aversive learning,
> though. The chronic pain I suffer from has taught me how to (and that I
> must) moderately meter out my pain in order to avoid greater amounts of
> pain. Pain has taught me a great deal. It's not a punishment in the
> slightest sense of that word.
>
> On 8/26/21 9:44 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
> > It would be good to make a distinction between "punishment" and 
> > "self-preservation".  There is something incoherent about asserting that 
> > stupid people need to be punished, because one of the salient features of 
> > stupidity is an inability to learn from experience.
> >
> > Also, don't we need to distinguish between stupid people and stupid acts?
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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[FRIAM] our friends the police

[Marcus Daniels]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/27/colorado-lawsuit-officer-shot-puppy/


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Re: [FRIAM] Epic

[Marcus Daniels]

That is a big boy.  COVID might well get him.

> On Aug 27, 2021, at 6:11 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> 
> 
> Covid Rant goes METAL! [San Diego Board of Supervisors meeting Remix]
> https://youtu.be/052iTp04DRY
> 
> We've broached the ethics of enjoying the fruits of problematic people 
> before. My favorite example is HP Lovecraft's racism and xenophobic inspired, 
> insanity inducing otherness. But even HG Wells had some brushes with 
> anti-semitism. The world is replete with examples of good art extruded from 
> bad people.
> 
> This is yet another example. It takes a particular kind of mind to watch that 
> dude spitting all over that microphone and see it as poetry.
> 
> -- 
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Marcus Daniels]

I wonder how it is for professional people that live in India in terms of 
salary vs. cost of living.I know the salary is a lot lower than in the 
U.S., but expenses may be much lower too?   My limited observation has been 
that there is competition for positions, and it can be nasty.  It would be 
interesting to visit a professional family in China to see what life is like 
there.

When Trump was elected I spent some time looking at other countries, and was 
also surprised how much lower salaries were in the U.K. and Germany.   London 
is not cheap at all.   Even Canada is a significantly lower in terms of salary. 
  (Although they have a health care safety net.)   I’m told that Singapore can 
be very nice, but it did not appear cheap to live there.

The privilege of housing is the biggest hurdle here.   Lots of people living on 
the street or in dilapidated campers.   Biden’s cliché about the dignity of 
work isn’t wrong, and the work that will be available to people below say $80k 
bracket is getting worse all the time I think.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 12:21 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

So, of the privileges you enjoy and list, how many would have to go away before 
you life would be no longer “decent”?

To be honest, Idon’t know what I am fishing for here, but for some reason the 
answer to that question seems important to me. I guess, I am thinking that the 
notion of a decent life, like that of a essential worker, hides some caste 
implications within it.  That some of us are of a nature that they SHOULD be 
satisfied with less than would satisfy me.

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 3:06 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Nick,

Thanks for asking how I would characterize the life I'm leading. My life is 
just great, I'm satisfied with my life. My need for food, safety, love and 
self-esteem are to a large degree met. Actually, I would rate myself on the 
self-actualization level on Moslow's hierarchy.

It's not about me, there are many people in South Africa who's basic 
physiological needs like food and safety are not met.

Pieter

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 20:28, 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Pieter,

If, in your ideal world, their lives are “decent, ” how would you characterize 
the life that you are leading.  The way you talk sounds a bit like the way we 
talk about “essential” workers here.

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 1:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Dave wrote  Why this obsession with "equality?"

I totally agree. But in South Africa we have a large portion of the population 
that do not have food on the table every day and I simply don't think it's 
right.

So, my view is that instead of obsessing with "equality", we should obsess that 
those on the bottom of the economic ladder should at least have decent lives.

Pieter

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 19:11, 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Dave,

I think of mathematical abstractions as aspirations.

Thanks for meeting me on my own ground, here.  You will recall that my original 
project was to try and discover what the metaphysical foundations might be for 
my  strong negative  response to the idea that castes are tolerable.  What MUST 
I assume in order to think as I do.   I have for many years suspected that the 
fundamental difference between comfortable BHL’s like me and comfortable 
conservatives is that we liberals see our comfort as arising from good luck, 
and they see their comfort as arising from their merit.   Now, all metaphysics 
is non-sense, except insofar as it explains and encourages an approach to other 
people that is … um …. Good.  I think than mine encourages me to approach 
people less wealthy than I,  not as people deserving of their fate but as 
people who have, in some sense, made me a gift.   Thus if there is kharma, it 
should be that the fortunate “should” pay for the correction of any absence of 
randomness that intergenerational transfers might inflict on the children of 
the poor.

I lay this out in this naïve way because I thought it might provoke a strong 
(and perhaps equally naïve) reaction from Sarbajit which would make it 
immediately clear what different places we are coming from.  Sarbajit may not 
answer, in which case I am left having revealed my naive

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Marcus Daniels]

Psychologically, I think shared hardship is very different than individual 
hardship.   My grandfather’s road construction and trucking work in Oregon is 
honored work in the family.   His generation built what the country is today.   
If one does that kind of work today, it holds no real esteem.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 1:30 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"



A photo of me, my oldest cousin, and my grandfather taken at that time (WW2).  
That's a railroad boxcar used as a temporary residence for transient railroad 
workers.

My parents lived in a 50s "canned ham" style camp trailer for most of the first 
18 months of my life.  My father was a junior Forester for the USFS and the 
"forest camp" he was assigned to had no family housing beyond that for the 
district ranger...  the single men lived in barracks...   other married men 
"commuted" the 60 miles to Flagstaff on weekends and stayed in the barracks.

My sister still has the small "cowbell" my mother made her wear during that 
time so that she didn't have to worry about her wandering off too far while 
otherwise occupied with me.

No running water, no bathroom, no electricity...   unleaded-gas lamps/stove...  
 but then my mother (at least) grew up in a farmhouse without central heating 
or running water (hand-pumped cistern and an outhouse) so I suppose this wasn't 
that much of a hardship.

They had friends who bought a retired boxcar hauled to a location in what later 
became north Flagstaff to live in.  When I lived there decades later, the 
boxcar was still there but built entirely around with a "conventional" house.  
It may be there to this day.



---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 1:45 PM Frank Wimberly 
mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
During WW2, while my father was serving in the Pacific, my mother and I lived 
with her parents in a little village in the mountains of rural New Mexico.  We 
lived in a two bedroom house with running water but no bathroom.  Heat was 
provided by a wood burning stove that was used for cooking as well.  There was 
a battery powered console radio.  I was between 4 months and 30 months old.  I 
was bathed in a galvanized washtub and I remember that.  We had no shortage of 
food nor clothing.  My grandfather worked for the Santa Fe Railroad as a 
section foreman and had a secure salary.  I remember being happy but, for the 
most part, I was oblivious.  A kid that age isn't happy if the adults, 
particularly his mother, aren't happy.  After my mother and I moved away from 
there after the War we visited often until I was five.  I remember my 
grandparents enjoying life for the most part.

To live like that today would require me to give up almost everything I have.  
But I feel nostalgic for that time and fond of those memories.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 1:23 PM 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
So, of the privileges you enjoy and list, how many would have to go away before 
you life would be no longer “decent”?

To be honest, Idon’t know what I am fishing for here, but for some reason the 
answer to that question seems important to me. I guess, I am thinking that the 
notion of a decent life, like that of a essential worker, hides some caste 
implications within it.  That some of us are of a nature that they SHOULD be 
satisfied with less than would satisfy me.

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 3:06 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

Nick,

Thanks for asking how I would characterize the life I'm leading. My life is 
just great, I'm satisfied with my life. My need for food, safety, love and 
self-esteem are to a large degree met. Actually, I would rate myself on the 
self-actualization level on Moslow's hierarchy.

It's not about me, there are many people in South Africa who's basic 
physiological needs like food and safety are not met.

Pieter

On Fri, 27 Aug 2021 at 20:28, 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Pieter,

If, in your ideal world, their lives are “decent, ” how would you characterize 
the life that you are leading.  The way you talk sounds a bit like the way we 
talk about “essential” workers here.

N

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Pieter Steenekamp
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 1:49 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] a

Re: [FRIAM] "All [persons] are created equal"

[Marcus Daniels]

Colonization is a proven model.   For 2 trillion dollars, shouldn’t we have 
some concrete benefit in mind?  Sure there’s some taxes via defense 
contractors.  I don’t know what one would do with that place.  Casinos?

> On Aug 27, 2021, at 6:00 PM, Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
> 
> So if I look at it dispassionately, the problem with gaining true equality is 
> politics and politicians. The misguided attemptsof the USA to promote / 
> inmpose "democracy" and "equality" in third world countries inevitably 
> results in the installation of dictatorships or puppets fronting for miltary 
> regimes as a reaction. Afghanistan is a good example of it.
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Re: [FRIAM] Help for Afghanistan's scientists

[Marcus Daniels]

This could be a good thing, in the fullness of time:

 
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/two-blows-america-dealing-taliban/619903/

On Aug 27, 2021, at 12:01 PM, Merle Lefkoff  wrote:


Afghanistan’s scientists see gains slip 
away

For 20 years, science has blossomed in Afghanistan. Now many researchers are 
fleeing and those who remain face lost funding and the threat of persecution. 
Humanitarian organizations such as Scholars at Risk are working to find places 
for researchers overseas, but leaving the country is extremely difficult. 
Scientists told Nature that they 

 fear for themselves and their families, and mourn the loss of a flourishing 
science 
infrastructure.
 “We spent all our money, energy and time in Afghanistan to build a brighter 
future for ourselves and our children,” says medical physicist Musa Joya. “I 
really see a dark future.”

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @merle110

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Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

[Marcus Daniels]

Did y'all not see Monkey Pong?   Soon enough there will be measurements on all 
this and explainable ML algorithms will pick the data apart.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2021 6:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Eternal questions

I can't shake the feeling that it doesn't matter what I write, here. But I'm 
stubborn.

My point has been that our feelings are forms of self-attention. And if we take 
self-attention seriously, it may not be necessary for the learning to be 
'socially taught'. One part of the body can learn the patterns of another part 
of the body, without any inter-body social interaction.

If that happens in each body, then the slight differences in each body can lead 
to different learned patterns in each body. And if that happens, the 'hard 
problem' becomes one of uniqueness. How different are the intra-body learned 
patterns?

Inter-individual influence will dampen the diversity of intra-body learned 
patterns, but perhaps only to some extent. Even with that dampening, we might 
each be ever so slightly unique, such that no one body can ever accurately 
explain any other body [¶].

Or, perhaps that uniqueness is negligible for any 2 similarly structured 
bodies. So intraspecies mind reading is justified. But interspecies mind 
reading is not. Or maybe all mammals can mind read each other. But 
reptile-mammal mind reading can't happen.

[¶] Even if we allow a long-memory, perfect information demon, observing the 
body from the outside, that demon might not have access to the self-attention 
learning inside the target. 

On August 28, 2021 8:07:43 AM PDT, Eric Charles 
 wrote:
>The question of mechanism is not an easy one. There have been several 
>attempts to figure out how to speak of it, by those who think mostly 
>along the same lines as Nick and I do.
>
>Gilbert Ryle famously talked about "dispositions" in this context. Nick 
>wants to go with pure "up reduction". My buddies Andrew and Sabrina 
>want to talk about how organisms transition between being different 
>types of special-purpose machines. There are other options.
>
>No one is denying that there are internal mechanisms which, in the 
>right environment, will produce the pattern of responses being 
>discussed. The first question is how to properly understand the 
>relationship between that *part *of the mechanism and the 
>"higher-level" phenomenon of interest. All I care about, and all Nick 
>should care about, in that context is that we keep our descriptions and 
>explanations distinct. Discussion of brain parts serves to help explain 
>the behavioral patterns of interest, and at no point should we confuse 
>the brain parts for the behavioral pattern. That would be like 
>confusing the breakdown of baking soda with the rising of the bread.
>Obviously the baking soda is important, and it is worth describing how 
>it breaks down when wet, but also we can't rule out that there are 
>other ways for bread to rise, and if we remove all the wet baking soda, 
>no amount of staring at it in isolation will result in our finding leavened 
>bread.
>
>The second question is how to understand how we "feel" the emotion. The 
>answer is going to be something of the form: *We are socially taught to 
>recognize early correlates of the larger patterns, and to label them in 
>particular ways.* If you reject the dualistic idea that we have 
>infallible knowledge about ourselves, you are going to end up at some 
>variation of that. And if you are *not *going to reject 
>infallible-dualistic-self-insight, then we shouldn't be anywhere near 
>this discussion yet, because there are much more basic issues to figure 
>out first.
>
>Again, in a casual conversation, we can really not care about any of this.
>
>Also, I'm not sure what's up with the thumbs metaphor. You have thumbs, 
>I could definitely, have your thumbs. Yes, there's a sense in which 
>your thumb is a complex, dynamic system. But also, your thumb is easily 
>removed and handed to me. In this modern wonder-age, I could even have 
>it attached and made functional on my own hand.
>
><
--
glen ⛧

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Re: [FRIAM] interesting - if true

[Marcus Daniels]

One would think that being progressive leads to progress, no?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2021 11:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] interesting - if true

Didn't we know that already?

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:
I encountered the following assertions but have not been able to confirm or 
refute.

65% of Americans earning $500,000/yr or more are registered Democrats and 74% 
of those earning $100,000 or less are Registered Republican. (Supposedly, IRS 
is source, but I can find it.)

The 20 wealthiest Congressional Districts have Democratic representatives. (How 
was wealth measured?)

17 of the 20 wealthiest zip codes gave more money to Democrats than 
Republicans. (

More than half of the wealthiest individuals (Forbes list I guess) in the US, 
consistently support, in words and contributions (how would anyone know) 
"liberal democratic" values and causes.

If these were true, it would be interesting to the extent it belies the 
caricatures of the Republican party as the bastion of the plutocrats and the 
Democratic party as the champion of the working class.

davew

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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @merle110

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Re: [FRIAM] "Older" coders sought

[Marcus Daniels]

Ha.  I think younger me would better tolerate doing dumb things on purpose.   
Soldiers that don’t ask:  What are we fighting for?

On Aug 30, 2021, at 7:16 AM, Tom Johnson  wrote:


https://www.techrepublic.com/article/old-developers-are-in-demand-at-this-tech-company-youll-never-believe-the-job-post/?ftag=TRE684d531&bhid=20491097527083334348667794110460&mid=13492680&cid=714270767

===
Tom Johnson
Inst. for Analytic Journalism
Santa Fe, New Mexico
505-577-6483
===
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Re: [FRIAM] Weighted Ensemble

[Marcus Daniels]

This week's Science has an article on predicting RNA structure using deep 
learning.The other approach you mention sounds like Rosetta.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2021 11:27 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Weighted Ensemble

The below is the only thing my search turns up (via $ grep -i folding $(grep 
-li protein $(grep -l "From: [\"]*Roger Critchlow[\"]* " *))) I 
found nothing if I include "parallel" in the and. If you have other keywords, 
maybe it'll be more apparent. (Header still includes Google. So it's not clear 
to me when you started using GMail.)


On 9/14/09 7:48 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> As I read it, the issue isn't whether structures and/or configurations 
> are/aren't important, the question is whether they operate according 
> to emergent or resultant rule sets.
> 
> The Emergentists were betting heavily on the emergent rule set.  They 
> believed that the variety of chemistry couldn't possibly be the result 
> of protons and electrons operating according to physics as they knew 
> it.  They were right, it wasn't physics as they knew it, but the 
> answer turned out to be the result of configurational physics rather 
> than emergent principles of chemistry.  They also bet that the variety 
> of biology couldn't be the result of chemical molecules operating 
> according to the chemistry they knew.  And they were right again, it 
> wasn't chemistry as they knew it, but the answer turned out to be the 
> result of configurational chemistry rather than emergent priniciples 
> of biology.
> 
> Chemistry and biology turn out to be ever more complicated 
> configurations of protons and electrons, with some neutron ballast, 
> operating according to the principles of quantum mechanics and 
> statistical mechanics.  It's all physics, same particles, same forces, 
> same laws, no emergent forces.  There are configuration forces, but 
> they're not emergent forces, they're subtle results of electrons 
> packing themselves into quantized energy levels in increasingly 
> complicated configurations of nuclei.
> 
> The structure of DNA and the elaboration of molecular biology was the 
> last straw because it provided a purely physical mechanism for 
> inheritance.
> 
> But you're right to see it as a bit of a conundrum.  The Emergentists, 
> as McLaughlin summarizes them, were substantially correct:
> configurations of atoms in molecules are the key to understanding 
> chemistry, there are all sorts of chemically distinctive things that 
> happen because of those configurations, none of those chemically 
> distinctive things are obvious when you play around with protons and 
> electrons in the physics lab.  But it all turned out to be part of the 
> resultant of quantum mechanics, not emergent in the sense the 
> Emergentists had painted themselves into, so they were wrong in the 
> one sense they really cared about.




On 8/30/21 10:43 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> This sounds like an algorithm for parallel protein folding that I 
> ranted about a long time ago.  Start with some collection of 
> conformations; perform many different molecular dynamics simulations 
> from your starting points in parallel;  continue with the most 
> promising subset.  As molecular dynamics on proteins tends to find 
> lots of deadends, you can get a lot of improvement by tabu'ing the 
> known deadends and extending into conformations which don't double 
> back into visited regions.  Seems I remember it went back to some monte-carlo 
> work at LANL in the 1950's, Goodfellow?
> 
> It also sounds a lot like Monte Carlo Tree search as used, for 
> instance, in AlphaGo.
> 
> It boils down to how well you can distinguish promising and 
> unpromising branches.
> 
> Whatever, it was in Friam before gmail, so I can't search for it.  
> There doesn't appear to be any search in the Friam archives, and the 
> years before
> 2017 at https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ are all 404 anyway.
> 
> -- rec --
> 
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 12:39 PM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> 
>> In my ignorance, I've thought of weighted ensemble (WE) as a specific 
>> kind of novelty search. E.g. weighting toward trajectories that 
>> exhibit anomalies. Is that what you mean by it?
>>
>> Also, for each of the 5 you're interested in, do you have convenient 
>> example cites for each/any of them? In particular, (2) and (3)? Or 
>> are these just ideas of places where you think WE should apply?
>>
>> For my part, no. I haven't used WE in particular. I have a friend 
>> who's worked on identifying mechanical anomalies from audio 
>> (recordings of machines as they hum). He may have used it. I'll ask.
>>
>> On 8/29/21 1:07 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
>>> I am presently working on learning weighted ensemble <
>> https://arxiv.org/pdf/1906.00856.pdf> sampling techniques and was 
>> curious if any here have worked with them before. The technique seems 
>> promising and has enjoyed quite 

Re: [FRIAM] Weighted Ensemble

[Marcus Daniels]

Population annealing is a similar idea.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Weighted Ensemble

There is also an implementation of weighted ensembles in julia, last updated 8 
days ago.

  https://github.com/gideonsimpson/WeightedEnsemble.jl

juliahub.com<http://juliahub.com> sells julia instances in the cloud, the first 
few are free.

-- rec --

On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 3:22 PM Roger Critchlow 
mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
Not a bad rant, sounds like Nick´s emergent book club, but that is not the rant 
I was looking for.

Yah, found the references the hard way.

The paper from LANL was 
https://journals.aps.org/prb/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevB.57.R13985,
pretty bad job on producing the date and author name.

Parallel replica method for dynamics of infrequent events
Arthur F. Voter
Phys. Rev. B 57, R13985(R) – Published 1 June 1998

The Pande lab paper was 
https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.86.4983

Mathematical Analysis of Coupled Parallel Simulations
Michael R. Shirts and Vijay S. Pande
Phys. Rev. Lett. 86, 4983 – Published 28 May 2001
i found the first from the second, found the second as #181/260 in the Pubmed 
listing for "pande vs" which the Pande lab uses as its list of publications.

I originally picked up on the topic in 
https://science.sciencemag.org/content/290/5498/1903
Screen Savers of the World Unite!

  1.  Michael Shirts,
  2.  Vijay S. 
Pande*<https://science.sciencemag.org/content/290/5498/1903#aff-1>

 See all authors and affiliations
Science  08 Dec 2000:
Vol. 290, Issue 5498, pp. 1903-1904
DOI: 10.1126/science.290.5498.1903
So the original rant might have been on a BiosGroup mailing list or just in my 
head.
-- rec --

On Mon, Aug 30, 2021 at 2:33 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
This week's Science has an article on predicting RNA structure using deep 
learning.The other approach you mention sounds like Rosetta.

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2021 11:27 AM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Weighted Ensemble

The below is the only thing my search turns up (via $ grep -i folding $(grep 
-li protein $(grep -l "From: [\"]*Roger Critchlow[\"]* 
mailto:r...@elf.org>>" *))) I found nothing if I include 
"parallel" in the and. If you have other keywords, maybe it'll be more 
apparent. (Header still includes Google. So it's not clear to me when you 
started using GMail.)


On 9/14/09 7:48 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> As I read it, the issue isn't whether structures and/or configurations
> are/aren't important, the question is whether they operate according
> to emergent or resultant rule sets.
>
> The Emergentists were betting heavily on the emergent rule set.  They
> believed that the variety of chemistry couldn't possibly be the result
> of protons and electrons operating according to physics as they knew
> it.  They were right, it wasn't physics as they knew it, but the
> answer turned out to be the result of configurational physics rather
> than emergent principles of chemistry.  They also bet that the variety
> of biology couldn't be the result of chemical molecules operating
> according to the chemistry they knew.  And they were right again, it
> wasn't chemistry as they knew it, but the answer turned out to be the
> result of configurational chemistry rather than emergent priniciples
> of biology.
>
> Chemistry and biology turn out to be ever more complicated
> configurations of protons and electrons, with some neutron ballast,
> operating according to the principles of quantum mechanics and
> statistical mechanics.  It's all physics, same particles, same forces,
> same laws, no emergent forces.  There are configuration forces, but
> they're not emergent forces, they're subtle results of electrons
> packing themselves into quantized energy levels in increasingly
> complicated configurations of nuclei.
>
> The structure of DNA and the elaboration of molecular biology was the
> last straw because it provided a purely physical mechanism for
> inheritance.
>
> But you're right to see it as a bit of a conundrum.  The Emergentists,
> as McLaughlin summarizes them, were substantially correct:
> configurations of atoms in molecules are the key to understanding
> chemistry, there are all sorts of chemically distinctive things that
> happen because of those configurations, none of those chemically
> distinctive things are obvious when you play around with protons and
> electrons in the physics lab.  But it all turned out to be part of the
> 

Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

I don’t really see what the big deal is in the comic.   Just someone being 
frustrated in their self-talk.
It seems like you are being very literal.

I would also drop people not wearing seatbelts to the back of the line at an ER.
Or don’t even scoop them up.   I don’t care if people wear seatbelts or not, 
but don’t make the rest of us pay for their lifetime of being fed through a 
tube.   Actually I’ve fine for paying for all of this, but the COVID-19 thing 
is a nice example of stupidity that should have consequences.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2021 2:33 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

I'm fine with anti-drunk driving laws,  but against wearing-seatbelt laws.  And 
either way,  it's the crazy mentality I am most abundantly against.

If you resent the existence of drunk drivers,  because you think they are 
somehow forcing you to drive sober,  that's really weird.

Ditto if you make the meme about seatbelts.

Proudly owning your decision to put others first makes sense.  But the 
mentality in the comic is toxic,  and should be avoided.



On Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 12:39 PM cody dooderson 
mailto:d00d3r...@gmail.com>> wrote:
As a thought experiment, imagine that the person in the cartoon is walking 
through a group of drunk people getting into their cars. Does the cartoon still 
bother you or is it somehow related to the politics behind masks?

The laws against drunk driving is also an authoritarian rule that limits my 
liberty. Even seat belt laws limit my liberty. Is it wrong to agree with some 
authoritarians when they make sense?

Cody Smith


On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 8:51 AM 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I stand by the flag of Bleeding Heart Liberalism ready to do battle with you 
guys.

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2021 10:06 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

Marcus,
It does take the "bleeding hearts" some time to get to "othering". That said, 
it's been a while since this started, and the vast majority I know are there 
now.


On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 4:47 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Nah, it takes the bleeding hearts some time to get to othering.   They need 
some moral support to do it.

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2021 12:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

We talk politics sometimes and the "liberal paradox" has come up. This seems 
like a variation on that. I've seen this comic for half a year now, and it bugs 
me every time.

There is 1) an arrogance to "RIGHT THING", 2) an assumption that anyone acting 
differently than you cannot have any explanation for their behavior other than 
selfish idiocy, and 3) a self-centered belief that their behavior is somehow a 
factor of you, rather than a choice of their own. Even worse than those, 4) 
there is some fundamental lack of decision-ownership that leads to some 
insidious places: The assertion that what others are doing leads you to "have 
to" do something --- HAVE TO --- rather than it being one of many factors that 
play into your choosing to do it.

I'm vaccinated, and I wear a mask in public, and I dislike everything this 
comic seems to be standing for. It is anti-liberal. It reveals deeply 
authoritarian leanings, and a firm dedication to "othering" those around you.

[https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=172d55814e&attid=0.1&th=17b98f600670e735&view=fimg&rm=17b98f600670e735&sz=w1600-h1000&attbid=ANGjdJ8cpgWPgPwrPIFo39eGa7QzykraAY76qC2YghrGW_NyUckl8h58fj2JM4L9zx-TfUPqQnPZSzLdqvPKMHUf51c2K0NnlgtszetLUBudJhzn3-YyvTCN0HJ_]

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Re: [FRIAM] Liberal "othering" or statement of fact?

[Marcus Daniels]

Or *both*

On Aug 31, 2021, at 7:18 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:


So saith Paul Krugman:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/opinion/covid-misinformation-supplements.html

Once you’re sensitized to the link between snake oil and right-wing politics, 
you realize that it’s pervasive.

This is clearly true in the right’s fever swamps. Alex Jones of Infowars has 
built a following by pushing conspiracy theories, but he makes money by selling 
nutritional 
supplements.
 It’s also true, however, for more mainstream, establishment parts of the 
right. For example, Ben Shapiro, considered an intellectual on the right, hawks 
supplements.Look at who 
advertises
 on Tucker Carlson’s Fox News show. After Fox itself, the top advertisers are 
My Pillow, then three supplement companies.Snake oil peddlers, clearly, find 
consumers of right-wing news and punditry a valuable market for their wares. So 
it shouldn’t be surprising to find many right-leaning Americans ready to see 
vaccination as a liberal plot and turn to dubious alternatives — although, 
again, I didn’t see livestock dewormer coming.

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Re: [FRIAM] Liberal "othering" or statement of fact?

[Marcus Daniels]

On one hand there is woo-woo, but others have semi-reasonable concerns that 
drug candidates don't make it through the medical establishment.   I am 
skeptical about that because pharma stands to make money from any compounds 
that work, and they have huge investments in high throughput screening.   So it 
seems to me they'd probably find the chemistry behind herbal remedies.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2021 7:31 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal "othering" or statement of fact?

I don't want to be a "both sides" person. But there's plenty of that on the 
left, too. I suppose it's for products like Paltrow's: https://goop.com/ Or 
reiki. Or crystals. Snake oil is non-partisan.

One thing that's a toss-up for me is the NCCIH: https://www.nccih.nih.gov/ On 
the one hand, I'm an integrationist ... and my contrariness demands I respect 
*complementary*. But some of the stuff they support research into looks like 
hogwash to me. I try to keep an open mind, though.

On 8/31/21 7:09 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> *//*So saith Paul Krugman:
> 
>  
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/opinion/covid-misinformation-supple
> ments.html 
>  ements.html>
> 
> Once you’re sensitized to the link between snake oil and right-wing politics, 
> you realize that it’s pervasive.
> 
> This is clearly true in the right’s fever swamps. Alex Jones of Infowars has 
> built a following by pushing conspiracy theories, but he makes money by 
> selling nutritional supplements 
> .
>  It’s also true, however, for more mainstream, establishment parts of the 
> right. For example, Ben Shapiro, considered an intellectual on the right, 
> hawks supplements.Look at who advertises 
> 
>  on Tucker Carlson’s Fox News show. After Fox itself, the top advertisers are 
> My Pillow, then three supplement companies.Snake oil peddlers, clearly, find 
> consumers of right-wing news and punditry a valuable market for their wares. 
> So it shouldn’t be surprising to find many right-leaning Americans ready to 
> see vaccination as a liberal plot and turn to dubious alternatives — 
> although, again, I didn’t see livestock dewormer coming.
> 


--
☤>$ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Liberal "othering" or statement of fact?

[Marcus Daniels]

For this to give the woo-woos further conviction, one would have to identify a 
traditional remedy that is effective (e.g. an immunomodulator of some kind?), 
and that hadn’t yet been discovered because no one thought to look.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2021 9:59 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal "othering" or statement of fact?

I don't know, there are many reasons why a pharmaceutical company might fail.

One of the most spectacular is illustrated by googling "glycoRNA".  So, a whole 
class of biological compounds, short RNA sequences decorated with glycans (also 
known as polysaccharides), first suspected to exist in 2019 
(https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/787614v1.full) turn out to exist in 
2021 (https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2021.04.023) in spades, all over cell 
membranes.  Nobody knew these compounds existed, so no one was looking to 
develop them or antagonists to them into drugs.

On the other hand, the snake oil sellers don't just kill their customers, they 
also traumatize the survivors.  If the advertisers on Tucker will screw you, 
who can you trust?

-- rec --

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021 at 11:35 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ 
mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Yeah, I suppose a locus on the left centers around the concepts of "natural", 
"organic", or "holistic" whereas on the right it's more fractured, objective 
oriented. And since much of science is structured by focused objectives, the 
righties tend to align with targeted science and the lefties tend to align with 
things like "emergence" and multifarious conditions (like chronic lyme disease 
or fibromyalgia or ... climate change). It would be fun to find out how many 
casual yoga goers describe themselves as left or right. (I imagine actual yogis 
would avoid the question. 8^D)

In the end, nonlinearity is hard for everyone. Where pharma has a crisp target, 
it will find a treatment. But where the target's not so crisp, it'll likely 
fail.


On 8/31/21 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> On one hand there is woo-woo, but others have semi-reasonable concerns that 
> drug candidates don't make it through the medical establishment.   I am 
> skeptical about that because pharma stands to make money from any compounds 
> that work, and they have huge investments in high throughput screening.   So 
> it seems to me they'd probably find the chemistry behind herbal remedies.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2021 7:31 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal "othering" or statement of fact?
>
> I don't want to be a "both sides" person. But there's plenty of that on the 
> left, too. I suppose it's for products like Paltrow's: https://goop.com/ Or 
> reiki. Or crystals. Snake oil is non-partisan.
>
> One thing that's a toss-up for me is the NCCIH: https://www.nccih.nih.gov/ On 
> the one hand, I'm an integrationist ... and my contrariness demands I respect 
> *complementary*. But some of the stuff they support research into looks like 
> hogwash to me. I try to keep an open mind, though.
>
> On 8/31/21 7:09 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> *//*So saith Paul Krugman:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/opinion/covid-misinformation-supple
>> ments.html
>> <https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/opinion/covid-misinformation-suppl
>> ements.html>
>>
>> Once you’re sensitized to the link between snake oil and right-wing 
>> politics, you realize that it’s pervasive.
>>
>> This is clearly true in the right’s fever swamps. Alex Jones of Infowars has 
>> built a following by pushing conspiracy theories, but he makes money by 
>> selling nutritional supplements 
>> <https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/05/how-does-alex-jones-make-money.html>.
>>  It’s also true, however, for more mainstream, establishment parts of the 
>> right. For example, Ben Shapiro, considered an intellectual on the right, 
>> hawks supplements.Look at who advertises 
>> <https://tvrev.com/whos-still-advertising-with-tucker-carlson-at-the-end-of-q2-2021/>
>>  on Tucker Carlson’s Fox News show. After Fox itself, the top advertisers 
>> are My Pillow, then three supplement companies.Snake oil peddlers, clearly, 
>> find consumers of right-wing news and punditry a valuable market for their 
>> wares. So it shouldn’t be surprising to find many right-leaning Americans 
>> ready to see vaccination as a liberal plo

Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

Dave writes:

"And I am terrified of liberals (progressives, democrats) because, at the 
moment, they have the power of government enforcement of their diktats."

Is that a liberal property, or just a property of anyone that has power?  What 
is a specific thing that liberals have done that is terrifying and impacts you?

Marcus
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Re: [FRIAM] Liberal "othering" or statement of fact?

[Marcus Daniels]

< Western medicine often has a hard time  discovering the "chemistry behind 
such cures" because they are looking for a specific problem and a (usually) 
single chemical "cure." Most folk medicine and long established areas like 
Aryuvedic medicine focus on multi-factor "cures" addressing multi-factor 
problems - all in a complex balance and set of associations. >

Now, if one takes a look at job postings for companies like Amgen, GSK, etc. 
you will so no shortage of jobs for machine learning specialists.

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

[Marcus Daniels]

I was made to take piano lessons for five years.  I did minimal practice, but 
still hated it and the idea of it.  I can’t do it all now, and don’t wish I 
could.   Don’t tell me what is important.  I will prioritize what I want.

That said, a vaccine is passive and takes no attention.

> On Sep 1, 2021, at 7:29 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> 
> 
> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or face prison
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison
> 
> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and mask 
> mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap about fascism 
> and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk about how mandates just 
> push the righties further into their foxholes, preventing collegial 
> conversation.
> 
> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style. Renee', to 
> this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to memorize Romeo and 
> Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate Shakespeare, because she hasn't 
> read much Shakespeare. She just *thinks* she hates it because of this 
> "mandate" she suffered under. This court mandated "literature therapy" being 
> imposed on this kid could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he 
> can't, if he simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?
> 
> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ] in 
> writing:
> 
> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems generally? 
> Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic systems could be 
> trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, incrementally, and 
> systematically enmeshed in normative practices that engage with the world and 
> that involve thick engagement with teachers ('elders'), who can steadily 
> develop and inculcate not just 'moral sensibility' but also intellectual 
> appreciation of intentional commitment to the world."
> 
> If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by mandating 
> he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters learning from our 
> mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the court's reaction to this kid's 
> stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and Prejudice, should teach that kid 
> something. But which is the more dangerous stupidity? Which stupidity runs 
> the risk of a more catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the vaccine? Or mandating 
> vaccination?
> 
> 
> [ψ] https://doi.org/10.4324/9781351001885
> 
> -- 
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

Congrats to the cheapskates, you’ve successfully bankrupted social security for 
my generation.   Let me think of a way to return the favor.

On Sep 1, 2021, at 8:07 AM, Steve Smith  wrote:



"half the politicians are trying to take my money and give it away...

... the other half are trying to take it and keep it for themselves."

-anonymous

On 8/31/21 4:53 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Dave writes:

“And I am terrified of liberals (progressives, democrats) because, at the 
moment, they have the power of government enforcement of their diktats.”

Is that a liberal property, or just a property of anyone that has power?  What 
is a specific thing that liberals have done that is terrifying and impacts you?

Marcus



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Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

[Marcus Daniels]

Culture is online now, didn’t you hear?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:12 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

Glen quoted BC Smith:

"What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems generally? 
Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic systems could be 
trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, incrementally, and 
systematically enmeshed in normative practices that engage with the world and 
that involve thick engagement with teachers ('elders'), who can steadily 
develop and inculcate not just 'moral sensibility' but also intellectual 
appreciation of intentional commitment to the world."

 I read from (or into) this statement a position I have held via AI since I did 
my masters thesis in CS (AI) — computers cannot be intelligent in any general 
sense until and unless they participate in human culture. We automatically and 
non-consciously "enculturate" (normative practices that engage the world and 
involve thick engagement) our children.

This is NOT education. Education is nothing more than a pale shadow of 
enculturation. Not more than 10% of the 'knowledge' in your head (knowledge 
about what to do and why and when and variations according to circumstance and 
context ) was learned via any kind of formal education or training and yet 
it is absolutely essential and is the foundation for comprehending and 
utilizing the 10% you did learn formally.

Until we can enculturate our computers, we will never achieve general AI (or 
even any complete specialized AI.

davew


On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 8:28 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>
> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or face
> prison
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison
>
> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and
> mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap
> about fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk
> about how mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes,
> preventing collegial conversation.
>
> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style.
> Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to
> memorize Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate
> Shakespeare, because she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just
> *thinks* she hates it because of this "mandate" she suffered under.
> This court mandated "literature therapy" being imposed on this kid
> could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he can't, if he
> simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?
>
> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ]
> in writing:
>
> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems
> generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic
> systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually,
> incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that
> engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers
> ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral
> sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional
> commitment to the world."
>
> If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by
> mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters
> learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the
> court's reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and
> Prejudice, should teach that kid something. But which is the more
> dangerous stupidity? Which stupidity runs the risk of a more
> catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the vaccine? Or mandating vaccination?
>
>
> [ψ] https://doi.org/10.4324/9781351001885
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  
> bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>

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Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

[Marcus Daniels]

I’m already convinced Dave is bot.  I know I am.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-internet-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:23 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

Culture is online now, didn’t you hear?

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:12 AM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

Glen quoted BC Smith:

"What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems generally? 
Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic systems could be 
trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, incrementally, and 
systematically enmeshed in normative practices that engage with the world and 
that involve thick engagement with teachers ('elders'), who can steadily 
develop and inculcate not just 'moral sensibility' but also intellectual 
appreciation of intentional commitment to the world."

 I read from (or into) this statement a position I have held via AI since I did 
my masters thesis in CS (AI) — computers cannot be intelligent in any general 
sense until and unless they participate in human culture. We automatically and 
non-consciously "enculturate" (normative practices that engage the world and 
involve thick engagement) our children.

This is NOT education. Education is nothing more than a pale shadow of 
enculturation. Not more than 10% of the 'knowledge' in your head (knowledge 
about what to do and why and when and variations according to circumstance and 
context ) was learned via any kind of formal education or training and yet 
it is absolutely essential and is the foundation for comprehending and 
utilizing the 10% you did learn formally.

Until we can enculturate our computers, we will never achieve general AI (or 
even any complete specialized AI.

davew


On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 8:28 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>
> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or face
> prison
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison
>
> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and
> mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap
> about fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk
> about how mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes,
> preventing collegial conversation.
>
> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style.
> Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to
> memorize Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate
> Shakespeare, because she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just
> *thinks* she hates it because of this "mandate" she suffered under.
> This court mandated "literature therapy" being imposed on this kid
> could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he can't, if he
> simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?
>
> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ]
> in writing:
>
> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems
> generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic
> systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually,
> incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that
> engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers
> ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral
> sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional
> commitment to the world."
>
> If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by
> mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters
> learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the
> court's reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and
> Prejudice, should teach that kid something. But which is the more
> dangerous stupidity? Which stupidity runs the risk of a more
> catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the vaccine? Or mandating vaccination?
>
>
> [ψ] https://doi.org/10.4324/9781351001885
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  
> bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>

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Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

[Marcus Daniels]

If we collected years of FRIAM archives and train it with a recycle GAN, I 
think it would probably be possible to generate plausible sentences of each 
other.  To the extent we pay attention to what we say at all; so it might not 
be the hard to fake really.   I think we could get the basic intent of all the 
regulars, if not the details of their writing (which the GAN would get).   I’ve 
often wished for a ML avatar that could stand in for me on Zoom meetings, so I 
could go play with my dog or go running or whatever.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 9:21 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

Would I pass the turing test if I could, by my emails, convince you that I was 
Dave?

Or is that just the dave Test.  Would I pass the Turing test if I could 
convince you that I was Turing?

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men!

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 11:26 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

I’m already convinced Dave is bot.  I know I am.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-internet-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:23 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

Culture is online now, didn’t you hear?

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:12 AM
To: friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

Glen quoted BC Smith:

"What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems generally? 
Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic systems could be 
trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually, incrementally, and 
systematically enmeshed in normative practices that engage with the world and 
that involve thick engagement with teachers ('elders'), who can steadily 
develop and inculcate not just 'moral sensibility' but also intellectual 
appreciation of intentional commitment to the world."

 I read from (or into) this statement a position I have held via AI since I did 
my masters thesis in CS (AI) — computers cannot be intelligent in any general 
sense until and unless they participate in human culture. We automatically and 
non-consciously "enculturate" (normative practices that engage the world and 
involve thick engagement) our children.

This is NOT education. Education is nothing more than a pale shadow of 
enculturation. Not more than 10% of the 'knowledge' in your head (knowledge 
about what to do and why and when and variations according to circumstance and 
context ) was learned via any kind of formal education or training and yet 
it is absolutely essential and is the foundation for comprehending and 
utilizing the 10% you did learn formally.

Until we can enculturate our computers, we will never achieve general AI (or 
even any complete specialized AI.

davew


On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 8:28 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>
> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or face
> prison
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison
>
> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and
> mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap
> about fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk
> about how mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes,
> preventing collegial conversation.
>
> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style.
> Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to
> memorize Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate
> Shakespeare, because she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just
> *thinks* she hates it because of this "mandate" she suffered under.
> This court mandated "literature therapy" being imposed on this kid
> could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he can't, if he
> simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?
>
> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ]
> in writing:
>
> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems
> generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see ho

Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

Dave wrote:

< More significant: I have had my curricular materials censured and have had my 
job threatened on a number of occasions because it was deemed inconsistent with 
liberal values. Ironically, many of these events occurred when I was teaching 
at a Catholic university where I could, with impunity, challenge religious 
orthodoxy, but not liberal woke snowflake orthodoxy. I was once censured by the 
University of Wisconsin HR department because a female student filed a sexual 
harassment complaint because I had a meeting with her in my office where I had 
three Salvador Dali prints on my wall and "she was forced to look at breasts 
the entire meeting." Her complaint was upheld because neither the content of 
the Dali prints nor my intent or rational for having them in my office mattered 
— only her subjective feelings. At Highlands I was forbidden to offer Honors 
courses or any opportunities to earn extra credit in a class by tackling extra 
hard problems (these were software courses) because doing so was racist and 
unfair — simply because more non-Hispanic students obtained the extra credit or 
the honors designation. >

So the university had the expectation that before advanced classes could be 
offered, there needed to an unbiasing of the candidate pool for those classes 
by adequately training everyone (every demographic) that was potentially 
feeding in to them?  Ok.  If the university wants to do this, or incentivized 
to do this, it is really just a matter of private/public strategy.   If you 
don't want to work for a university that has this "fair" strategy, then don't.  
  As for subjecting young students to strange imagery, I can see why one would 
not want to do that.  Just as it would strange for a female professor to dress 
like a hooker.   Organizations can have dress codes.   Don't be a fool, 
universities are just another kind of business.  You mess with the business, 
you will have a problem.  It would be better if your department heads were 
"upstanders" and just said, "Hey Dave, how is this art helping your students?"

< Not personal, but a relative: multi-generational ranch with Federal grazing 
right. Hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years were spent enhancing the 
Federal land, containment ponds for water that reduced erosion and flash 
flooding without diminishing runoff contribution to watershed; planting of 
native grasses, elimination of  deadwood, etc. etc. End result was the ability 
to safely and sustainably graze X number of cattle. About five years ago, BLM 
issued a new policy dictating the maximum carrying capacity of Federal lands. 
The math was based on lowest common denominator. The policy was, at the behest 
of preservation groups, written with the specific intent to minimize and 
eventually eliminate the use of public lands for grazing. (Also mining and 
motorized recreational vehicle use.) Bottom line, allotment was taken away 
because it violated the numbers — not because there was any evidence of actual 
harm. >

I'm a taxpayer.  Why should I want off road vehicles or cows on federal land?  
I don't care about either of those things.   This is a weird entitlement that 
these folks have in mind.  As far as I was concerned the Bundy principals in 
Oregon deserved to be met by A-10s.

Marcs
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Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

[Marcus Daniels]

, Prof David West wrote:
>>>> Richard Gabriel has created software that can generate poetry in the style 
>>>> of any poet. It also generates poetry that passes the Turing test in that 
>>>> experts are unable to distinguish between machine generated poetry and 
>>>> human generated poetry. He demoed this at an annual meeting of poets at 
>>>> Warren Wilson College (where Richard got his MFA).
>>>> 
>>>> I am certain he could use his program to create FRIAM posts that could 
>>>> emulate any of us.
>>>> 
>>>> He also, for IBM on a DoD contract, created a NL program that monitored 
>>>> social media posts, detected those deemed inimical to government interests 
>>>> (e.g setting up a flash mob to protest the visit of a political 
>>>> personage), and generate counter postings (e.g., moving the mob to a pig 
>>>> farm instead of the county court house because "inside sources" confirm 
>>>> the personage changed her itinerary).
>>>> 
>>>> Of course social media postings create a pretty low bar for an AI to be 
>>>> convincing.
>>>> 
>>>> davew
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 10:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> If we collected years of FRIAM archives and train it with a recycle GAN, 
>>>>> I think it would probably be possible to generate plausible sentences of 
>>>>> each other.  To the extent we pay attention to what we say at all; so it 
>>>>> might not be the hard to fake really.   I think we could get the basic 
>>>>> intent of all the regulars, if not the details of their writing (which 
>>>>> the GAN would get).   I’ve often wished for a ML avatar that could stand 
>>>>> in for me on Zoom meetings, so I could go play with my dog or go running 
>>>>> or whatever.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of 
>>>>> *thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 9:21 AM
>>>>> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
>>>>> 
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Would I pass the turing test if I could, by my emails, convince you that 
>>>>> I was Dave?
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Or is that just the dave Test.  Would I pass the Turing test if I could 
>>>>> convince you that I was Turing?
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men!
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> n
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> Nick Thompson
>>>>> 
>>>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clar
>>>>> ku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,Hw-cwIVR_eEV5qfxYNlMv92f6sbBOzOqgt3VQO
>>>>> LFyN9mT4tmHXm9fAwBbIeRoDpAhwO1QnCSXN-4JGq2vRXPcQ8EsmDjx2Wpw0Hrh_3l
>>>>> -5i692-4gGmkeKs,&typo=1 
>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.cla
>>>>> rku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,QOf1D-j5ArygoRcbG-DdV5AXv09vkA1414zTb
>>>>> hQRu511cyjlZgpKAzluFC5aL6nMPLUA8Wi7J73gi60RKo85emJQKe6stzs14IZaNF_
>>>>> xU8tj2p72Tno,&typo=1>
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> *From:* Friam >>>> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 11:26 AM
>>>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>>>>> mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> I’m already convinced Dave is bot.  I know I am.
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-intern
>>>>> et-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/ 
>>>>> <https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-inter
>>>>> net-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/&

Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

Welfare ranchers, indeed.   The rest of us have to constantly modernize our 
skills..  But freeloading off the public land and environment that’s 
“multigenerational” and must be preserved?  Why?

Marcus

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 3:17 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

I owned 40 acres in Torrance County, NM which was adjacent to a national 
forest.  Ranchers were charged $1.21 per acre per year to use the NF land for 
grazing.  I could have made $48 per year by charging a little less than the 
feds.  My property taxes were $40 per year.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 1:50 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Dave wrote:

< More significant: I have had my curricular materials censured and have had my 
job threatened on a number of occasions because it was deemed inconsistent with 
liberal values. Ironically, many of these events occurred when I was teaching 
at a Catholic university where I could, with impunity, challenge religious 
orthodoxy, but not liberal woke snowflake orthodoxy. I was once censured by the 
University of Wisconsin HR department because a female student filed a sexual 
harassment complaint because I had a meeting with her in my office where I had 
three Salvador Dali prints on my wall and "she was forced to look at breasts 
the entire meeting." Her complaint was upheld because neither the content of 
the Dali prints nor my intent or rational for having them in my office mattered 
— only her subjective feelings. At Highlands I was forbidden to offer Honors 
courses or any opportunities to earn extra credit in a class by tackling extra 
hard problems (these were software courses) because doing so was racist and 
unfair — simply because more non-Hispanic students obtained the extra credit or 
the honors designation. >

So the university had the expectation that before advanced classes could be 
offered, there needed to an unbiasing of the candidate pool for those classes 
by adequately training everyone (every demographic) that was potentially 
feeding in to them?  Ok.  If the university wants to do this, or incentivized 
to do this, it is really just a matter of private/public strategy.   If you 
don't want to work for a university that has this "fair" strategy, then don't.  
  As for subjecting young students to strange imagery, I can see why one would 
not want to do that.  Just as it would strange for a female professor to dress 
like a hooker.   Organizations can have dress codes.   Don't be a fool, 
universities are just another kind of business.  You mess with the business, 
you will have a problem.  It would be better if your department heads were 
"upstanders" and just said, "Hey Dave, how is this art helping your students?"

< Not personal, but a relative: multi-generational ranch with Federal grazing 
right. Hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years were spent enhancing the 
Federal land, containment ponds for water that reduced erosion and flash 
flooding without diminishing runoff contribution to watershed; planting of 
native grasses, elimination of  deadwood, etc. etc. End result was the ability 
to safely and sustainably graze X number of cattle. About five years ago, BLM 
issued a new policy dictating the maximum carrying capacity of Federal lands. 
The math was based on lowest common denominator. The policy was, at the behest 
of preservation groups, written with the specific intent to minimize and 
eventually eliminate the use of public lands for grazing. (Also mining and 
motorized recreational vehicle use.) Bottom line, allotment was taken away 
because it violated the numbers — not because there was any evidence of actual 
harm. >

I'm a taxpayer.  Why should I want off road vehicles or cows on federal land?  
I don't care about either of those things.   This is a weird entitlement that 
these folks have in mind.  As far as I was concerned the Bundy principals in 
Oregon deserved to be met by A-10s.

Marcs
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Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

Dave writes:

< Honors degrees, curricula, and courses are racist reasons that students from 
northern New Mexico cannot succeed at other universities and, as such, cannot 
be tolerated at Highlands. >

Universities find and mature talent.  They don’t make it.  Students attach 
their talent to the brand, and the university invests and uses the students’ 
accomplishments to advance the brand.  It is especially clear what is happening 
with basketball or football.   With a HBC, say, part of the brand is that it is 
historically black.   It is important for administrators to think about what 
makes their organization and market special and how to advance their brand, 
otherwise they will go out of business.

< Posters: woman in question was a 30+ year old grad student (we shared the 
same advisor). The posters were in my office for my enjoyment, purchased at the 
university bookstore. Meeting was held in my office at her request. They were 
prints of Dali work considered "great art." The human figures are totally 
androgynous as well as being distorted in typical Dali style. Her motive for 
filing the complaint was, she stated in an email a year later, to discredit me 
with our advisor who she thought showed a preference for my work over hers. The 
HR office, because of their "enlightened liberal policies" accepted her 
complaint on its face, no investigation; as the same policy stated one was not 
needed because, as a male and academic staff, I had no defensible position to 
consider.>

HR also looks after its brand.   They need to make examples out of people and 
to level the playing field from time to time.  This is not a enlightened 
liberal policy thing, this is just dogs eating dogs, you know?   At the end of 
the day HR protects the organization, and that may be as simple as keeping up 
appearances.   Don’t leave weapons on the table unless you want to see them 
used.

< Ranchers: this particular family took 'stewardship' seriously and made 
hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of improvements to public land. but my 
point is simply that bureaucrats, kowtowing to liberal environmental lobbyists 
set policy without regard to any 'facts on the ground' or any science, simply 
on liberal philosophy of how things "should be." >

Yes, it is a world of politics.   Isn’t that your whole thing with the 
ethno-everything schtick?   Just forces acting against one another?   Arbitrary 
preferences.   Nihilism.

This reminds me of my grandmother’s house where an ex-con lives for crazy low 
rent (like 8 times less than my mortgage payment).Now sure, he does things 
like cuts holes in walls for new windows he wants, patches leaks in the roof 
and tears down out buildings because he wants to install a chicken house, and 
so on.   Do these investments means he owns the house?   Gee, he’s starting to 
act like it, isn’t he?I bet they made these “improvements” to the public 
land because it was in their interest to do so.  Didn’t they?

< Access: I too am a taxpayer. There are some very nice hot springs on BLM land 
near by. They are maintained and upgraded by a volunteer public group (pretty 
informal, word of mouth kind of stuff). Being old and feeble, my access is 
increasing dependent on the use of an ATV. BLM policy dictates constant 
reduction of motorized transport on that land, so it will not be long before my 
access is de facto denied. This is a personal example of a "woke" policy on 
increasing wilderness designations thereby denying access to elderly, 
handicapped, and otherwise marginally abled.>

A good libertarian would buy one of those wheelchair accessible bathtubs?

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

The signal to the welfare rancher is “Find a new line of work and quit your 
whining.”

On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:05 AM, Eric Charles  wrote:


"The fact that you agree with the policies and actions does not mitigate the 
harm caused."

This seems to be a recurring theme in conversations I am having recently, in 
several venues. I make a factual claim about damages caused by a 
policy/action/decision. Someone objects to the factual claim because they agree 
with policy/action/decision. I'm never quite sure where to go in the 
conversation after that.

Like, I saw someone post, non-sarcastically, a meme claiming that Biden's 
withdrawal from Afghanistan was more peaceful that Trump's final days in 
office. When I pointed out how obviously wrong that was, the 
otherwise-sensible-seeming person couldn't do anything but insist that 
withdrawing was the right thing to do. Like... come on man... I get that... but 
what does that have to do with pretending things went well, or were 
"peaceful"?!?

So, like... yeah... you might agree with restrictions on the uses of public 
lands... but that doesn't mean you need to pretend it has no negative 
consequences for individuals. Just own that those harms will happen, as part of 
your supporting the policy.
<mailto:echar...@american.edu>


On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 8:09 PM Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:
Marcus, you seem to miss my point; perhaps just baiting me.

Honors at Highlands: this was part of a policy, stated publicly at a Board of 
Regents meeting, "Highlands exists to provide degrees to Hispanic students that 
could never obtain one at any other university. Honors degrees, curricula, and 
courses are racist reasons that students from northern New Mexico cannot 
succeed at other universities and, as such, cannot be tolerated at Highlands."

Posters: woman in question was a 30+ year old grad student (we shared the same 
advisor). The posters were in my office for my enjoyment, purchased at the 
university bookstore. Meeting was held in my office at her request. They were 
prints of Dali work considered "great art." The human figures are totally 
androgynous as well as being distorted in typical Dali style. Her motive for 
filing the complaint was, she stated in an email a year later, to discredit me 
with our advisor who she thought showed a preference for my work over hers. The 
HR office, because of their "enlightened liberal policies" accepted her 
complaint on its face, no investigation; as the same policy stated one was not 
needed because, as a male and academic staff, I had no defensible position to 
consider.

Ranchers: this particular family took 'stewardship' seriously and made hundreds 
of thousands of dollars worth of improvements to public land. but my point is 
simply that bureaucrats, kowtowing to liberal environmental lobbyists set 
policy without regard to any 'facts on the ground' or any science, simply on 
liberal philosophy of how things "should be."

Access: I too am a taxpayer. There are some very nice hot springs on BLM land 
near by. They are maintained and upgraded by a volunteer public group (pretty 
informal, word of mouth kind of stuff). Being old and feeble, my access is 
increasing dependent on the use of an ATV. BLM policy dictates constant 
reduction of motorized transport on that land, so it will not be long before my 
access is de facto denied. This is a personal example of a "woke" policy on 
increasing wilderness designations thereby denying access to elderly, 
handicapped, and otherwise marginally abled.

You asked for examples of liberal actions/policies that caused harm, to me 
specifically, but by implication in general. These are tangible examples. The 
fact that you agree with the policies and actions does not mitigate the harm 
caused.

davew




On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 4:33 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Welfare ranchers, indeed.   The rest of us have to constantly modernize our 
skills..  But freeloading off the public land and environment that’s 
“multigenerational” and must be preserved?  Why?



Marcus



From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 3:17 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas



I owned 40 acres in Torrance County, NM which was adjacent to a national 
forest.  Ranchers were charged $1.21 per acre per year to use the NF land for 
grazing.  I could have made $48 per year by charging a little less than the 
feds.  My property taxes were $40 per year.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM



On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 1:50 PM Marcus Daniels 
mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:

Dave wrote:

< More significant: I have had my curricular materials 

Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

A potential benefit of the episodic personality type is the ability to grieve 
failures and move on.

> On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:50 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> 
> Well, I do feel pity for Dave and the obsolete people/modes being left 
> behind. Nostalgia is difficult. On his deathbed, with so much time to sit and 
> think about dying, my dad finally admitted that his "type A personality" was 
> an artifact of the circumstances within which he was reared ('30s). And it 
> wasn't at all successful under the circumstances/times in which me and my 
> sister were reared. My sister took something more like Marcus' stance, an 
> unvarnished "get with the program". I took a more apathetic stance, "you're 
> gonna to die soon, anyway, at which your pain will end." 
> 
> I feel the same way when I see lions at the zoo, once glorious masters on the 
> Serengeti, now pathetic creatures burdened with claws and teeth and nobody to 
> fight with. It's truly sad. But it's also terrifying to me. Am *I* capable of 
> recognizing the signal when it comes my way? Or am I destined to be a scared 
> little snowflake, hiding in my nostalgia? ... aggrieved, petulant, and 
> burdened with my teeth and claws?
> 
> I took a morning walk to downtown Olympia right after the pandemic. I 
> walk/run around 6am. As I was returning, walking, a man in a black gaiter, 
> sunglasses, and black hoodie, covered so well I couldn't see any of his flesh 
> ... hell, I don't even know if it was a man. Was walking toward me. I didn't 
> think much of it at the time. There was a new building across the street with 
> some weird structure (e.g. a kitchen on the 1st floor with no other rooms 
> attached ... WTF?). So I crossed to peer through the various floor to ceiling 
> plate glass windows to see if I could figure out what it was for?
> 
> When I was done peering into the windows, I noticed the man on the other side 
> of the street, stopped, staring at me. That scared me. Did he intend harm? 
> Was he offended that I crossed the street? Should I go back across and say 
> something? ... well, a couple of women walked past me audibly wondering what 
> this building was for and that distracted me. I talked to them for a minute. 
> And when I looked back the guy was gone.
> 
> Have I become just like the scared little old lady that lives next door?  
> Afraid of progress? Afraid of diversity? Scared of my own shadow? I honestly 
> don't know.
> 
> 
>> On 9/2/21 7:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> The signal to the welfare rancher is “Find a new line of work and quit your 
>> whining.”
>> 
>>>> On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:05 AM, Eric Charles  
>>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "The fact that you agree with the policies and actions does not mitigate 
>>> the harm caused."
>>> 
>>> This seems to be a recurring theme in conversations I am having recently, 
>>> in several venues. I make a factual claim about damages caused by a 
>>> policy/action/decision. Someone objects to the factual claim because they 
>>> agree with policy/action/decision. I'm never quite sure where to go in the 
>>> conversation after that. 
>>> 
>>> Like, I saw someone post, non-sarcastically, a meme claiming that Biden's 
>>> withdrawal from Afghanistan was more peaceful that Trump's final days in 
>>> office. When I pointed out how obviously wrong that was, the 
>>> otherwise-sensible-seeming person couldn't do anything but insist that 
>>> withdrawing was the right thing to do. Like... come on man... I get that... 
>>> but what does that have to do with pretending things went well, or were 
>>> "peaceful"?!? 
>>> 
>>> So, like... yeah... you might agree with restrictions on the uses of public 
>>> lands... but that doesn't mean you need to pretend it has no negative 
>>> consequences for individuals. Just own that those harms will happen, as 
>>> part of your supporting the policy. 
>>> <mailto:echar...@american.edu>
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 8:09 PM Prof David West >>> <mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>__
>>>Marcus, you seem to miss my point; perhaps just baiting me.
>>> 
>>>Honors at Highlands: this was part of a policy, stated publicly at a 
>>> Board of Regents meeting, "Highlands exists to provide degrees to Hispanic 
>>> students that could never obtain one at any other university. Honors 
>>> degrees, curricula, and courses are 

Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

I think of quantum error correction, which aims to isolate the consequences of 
errors and correct them with exact perfectly-calibrated interventions.   This 
is in contrast to U.S. politics where people don't know what is wrong, advocate 
clumsy interventions, and just generally screw everything up.   Deutsch's pitch 
about "advocacy" therefore doesn't ring true to me because I don't see people 
here engaging in specific arguments about the contexts in which things are 
true, they just carry on about their identity and their grievances.   There are 
no fair matches when bad faith actors rile up people rather than questioning 
their own reasoning and their values.  So to me, the EU is kind of appealing 
because the error correction -- in my mind -- needs to be performed on 
individuals as well as organizations.  People are defective.  There's no free 
lunch though.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2021 9:20 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

I suppose. But what if Strawson's episodic/diachronic is empirically wrong? 
What if we're all diachronic (narrative, even) to an overwhelming extent? That 
implies some memory-deep (perhaps still mostly ontogenic) structure that might 
only be reprogrammed with surgery, drugs, implants, trauma, etc. I use that 
lemma when I argue that old animals must die, evolution requires it. Granted, 
humans may be way more plastic than most animals. But Shirley there's a limit.

Along those same lines, I watched this video during my workout this morning:

David Deutsch on Brexit and Error Correction https://youtu.be/xdtssXITXuE

I had no idea Deutsch was a rhetorical component for Brexit ... makes sense 
given his libertarian bent. I find the argument to error correction and 
adversarial disputation compelling. But something rings hollow. It's too 
dyadic, this side, the opposition, etc., which is odd given that the UK has a 
parliamentary structure. The US seems more oriented to dyadic aversariality (is 
that a word) than the UK. It was also odd that he lauds winning first past the 
post by small margins and that such small margins support some sort of 
individual commitment to a policy ... such that it can be falsified and 
corrected for. It seems to me that these small margins are sources of conflict 
and distrust, not coherent argumentation. I guess it's all so "theoretical" 
that makes me skeptical.


On 9/2/21 8:04 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A potential benefit of the episodic personality type is the ability to grieve 
> failures and move on.
> 
>> On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:50 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
>>
>> Well, I do feel pity for Dave and the obsolete people/modes being left 
>> behind. Nostalgia is difficult. On his deathbed, with so much time to sit 
>> and think about dying, my dad finally admitted that his "type A personality" 
>> was an artifact of the circumstances within which he was reared ('30s). And 
>> it wasn't at all successful under the circumstances/times in which me and my 
>> sister were reared. My sister took something more like Marcus' stance, an 
>> unvarnished "get with the program". I took a more apathetic stance, "you're 
>> gonna to die soon, anyway, at which your pain will end." 
>>
>> I feel the same way when I see lions at the zoo, once glorious masters on 
>> the Serengeti, now pathetic creatures burdened with claws and teeth and 
>> nobody to fight with. It's truly sad. But it's also terrifying to me. Am *I* 
>> capable of recognizing the signal when it comes my way? Or am I destined to 
>> be a scared little snowflake, hiding in my nostalgia? ... aggrieved, 
>> petulant, and burdened with my teeth and claws?
>>
>> I took a morning walk to downtown Olympia right after the pandemic. I 
>> walk/run around 6am. As I was returning, walking, a man in a black gaiter, 
>> sunglasses, and black hoodie, covered so well I couldn't see any of his 
>> flesh ... hell, I don't even know if it was a man. Was walking toward me. I 
>> didn't think much of it at the time. There was a new building across the 
>> street with some weird structure (e.g. a kitchen on the 1st floor with no 
>> other rooms attached ... WTF?). So I crossed to peer through the various 
>> floor to ceiling plate glass windows to see if I could figure out what it 
>> was for?
>>
>> When I was done peering into the windows, I noticed the man on the other 
>> side of the street, stopped, staring at me. That scared me. Did he intend 
>> harm? Was he offended that I crossed the street? Should I go back across and 
>> say something? ... well, a couple of women walke

Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

< Where does: Making it harder for disabled people to access hot springs on 
public land fall on that spectrum?  >

If there is a public consensus to provide recreational access to public lands, 
I believe that would be the domain of the Department of the Interior, USDA, and 
National Park Service.   Once so identified, one could imagine trails being 
installed, following relevant regulations for access by disabled individuals.   
Bagby hot springs in Oregon comes to mind.

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 10:50 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ 
mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Well, I do feel pity for Dave and the obsolete people/modes being left behind. 
Nostalgia is difficult. On his deathbed, with so much time to sit and think 
about dying, my dad finally admitted that his "type A personality" was an 
artifact of the circumstances within which he was reared ('30s). And it wasn't 
at all successful under the circumstances/times in which me and my sister were 
reared. My sister took something more like Marcus' stance, an unvarnished "get 
with the program". I took a more apathetic stance, "you're gonna to die soon, 
anyway, at which your pain will end."

I feel the same way when I see lions at the zoo, once glorious masters on the 
Serengeti, now pathetic creatures burdened with claws and teeth and nobody to 
fight with. It's truly sad. But it's also terrifying to me. Am *I* capable of 
recognizing the signal when it comes my way? Or am I destined to be a scared 
little snowflake, hiding in my nostalgia? ... aggrieved, petulant, and burdened 
with my teeth and claws?

I took a morning walk to downtown Olympia right after the pandemic. I walk/run 
around 6am. As I was returning, walking, a man in a black gaiter, sunglasses, 
and black hoodie, covered so well I couldn't see any of his flesh ... hell, I 
don't even know if it was a man. Was walking toward me. I didn't think much of 
it at the time. There was a new building across the street with some weird 
structure (e.g. a kitchen on the 1st floor with no other rooms attached ... 
WTF?). So I crossed to peer through the various floor to ceiling plate glass 
windows to see if I could figure out what it was for?

When I was done peering into the windows, I noticed the man on the other side 
of the street, stopped, staring at me. That scared me. Did he intend harm? Was 
he offended that I crossed the street? Should I go back across and say 
something? ... well, a couple of women walked past me audibly wondering what 
this building was for and that distracted me. I talked to them for a minute. 
And when I looked back the guy was gone.

Have I become just like the scared little old lady that lives next door?  
Afraid of progress? Afraid of diversity? Scared of my own shadow? I honestly 
don't know.


On 9/2/21 7:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> The signal to the welfare rancher is “Find a new line of work and quit your 
> whining.”
>
>> On Sep 2, 2021, at 7:05 AM, Eric Charles 
>> mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> "The fact that you agree with the policies and actions does not mitigate the 
>> harm caused."
>>
>> This seems to be a recurring theme in conversations I am having recently, in 
>> several venues. I make a factual claim about damages caused by a 
>> policy/action/decision. Someone objects to the factual claim because they 
>> agree with policy/action/decision. I'm never quite sure where to go in the 
>> conversation after that.
>>
>> Like, I saw someone post, non-sarcastically, a meme claiming that Biden's 
>> withdrawal from Afghanistan was more peaceful that Trump's final days in 
>> office. When I pointed out how obviously wrong that was, the 
>> otherwise-sensible-seeming person couldn't do anything but insist that 
>> withdrawing was the right thing to do. Like... come on man... I get that... 
>> but what does that have to do with pretending things went well, or were 
>> "peaceful"?!?
>>
>> So, like... yeah... you might agree with restrictions on the uses of public 
>> lands... but that doesn't mean you need to pretend it has no negative 
>> consequences for individuals. Just own that those harms will happen, as part 
>> of your supporting the policy.
>> <mailto:echar...@american.edu<mailto:echar...@american.edu>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 8:09 PM Prof David West 
>> mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm> 
>> <mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm<mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>>> wrote:
>>
>> __
>> Marcus, you seem to miss my point; perhaps just baiting me.
>>
>> Honors at Highlands: this was part of a policy, stated publicly at a 
>> Bo

Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

Once one believes the other side only lies, then the guiding principle becomes 
By Any Means Necessary..

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jon Zingale  wrote:


"Any man can be Babylon, in times like these." - Burning Spear
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Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

[Marcus Daniels]

Deplatforming is one manifestation of By Any Means Necessary.  And I am all for 
that for suitable targets like DJT and people that spread disinformation about 
public health.  But ideological purity, say taking down people like Al Franken 
is not helpful.   The willingness to play dirty is a different thing from 
sniping at colleagues over relatively minor differences.   There is a fractal 
quality to the left where distance metrics automatically rescale with the lens. 
  That’s fine, and progressive, provided one zooms out from time to time to 
take a look at the other monsters in the room.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2021 12:43 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

What do you mean!?  I AM Babble On.

n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com<mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, September 2, 2021 3:28 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Liberal dilemmas

Once one believes the other side only lies, then the guiding principle becomes 
By Any Means Necessary..

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jon Zingale 
mailto:jonzing...@gmail.com>> wrote:

"Any man can be Babylon, in times like these." - Burning Spear
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