Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
I have started getting Hebrew spam again, even now that the new anti-spam law is in place. Sure, I _could_ just filter it, but I would prefer to make life miserable for the spammers, even at my own expense. What legal tools do I have? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On Sat, Feb 07, 2009 at 10:35:19PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: > I have started getting Hebrew spam again, even now that the new > anti-spam law is in place. Sure, I _could_ just filter it, but I would > prefer to make life miserable for the spammers, even at my own > expense. What legal tools do I have? You might want to have a look here: http://www.isoc.org.il/spam/ -- Didi ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
2009/2/7 sara fink : > I have a booklet from emun hatzibur with the law. They also have an example > how to file a law suit against spammers (see the last pages) of the > attachment. Sorry for the hebrew mismatch in the name of the file. > Thank you Sara, I will read that tomorrow. > BTW, send me the details where to send the fax for rashut hateufa. > פקס: 039752387 Don't forget to mention that going to the iaa.gov.il website just to look for the fax number gave this error: " דפדפן לא מתאים האתר מיועד לדפדפנים מסוג אינטרנט אקפלורר 5.5 ומעלה " -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Dotan Cohen wrote: I have started getting Hebrew spam again, even now that the new anti-spam law is in place. Sure, I _could_ just filter it, but I would prefer to make life miserable for the spammers, even at my own expense. What legal tools do I have? Anyone who got spam from "Rinat Zoref" and kept it is welcome to email me in private. Also, anyone who got spam from "divur.lasakim", likewise. And, whatever you do, KEEP THOSE EMAILS. I keep all of the Hebrew (and Israeli) spam I get. Shachar ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On 08/02/2009, at 08:23, Shachar Shemesh wrote: Anyone who got spam from "Rinat Zoref" and kept it is welcome to email me in private. Also, anyone who got spam from "divur.lasakim", likewise. And, whatever you do, KEEP THOSE EMAILS. I keep all of the Hebrew (and Israeli) spam I get. Why keep them? Is there really any way to benefit from this, or is it a terrible waste of time. Should I stop filtering out Hebrew/Israeli spam? I get a LOT of it, because my company runs public mailing lists for many, many yeshivot and their divrei torah programs. --sambo ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 08:57:06AM +0200, sammy ominsky wrote: > On 08/02/2009, at 08:23, Shachar Shemesh wrote: > >> Anyone who got spam from "Rinat Zoref" and kept it is welcome to email >> me in private. >> Also, anyone who got spam from "divur.lasakim", likewise. >> And, whatever you do, KEEP THOSE EMAILS. I keep all of the Hebrew (and >> Israeli) spam I get. > > Why keep them? Is there really any way to benefit from this, or is it a > terrible waste of time. Should I stop filtering out Hebrew/Israeli > spam? I get a LOT of it, because my company runs public mailing lists > for many, many yeshivot and their divrei torah programs. Shachar seems to suggest that this might be used for a small claims court case in which the spammer may be sued for up to 1000 NIS per email. Slightly off-topic: I got annoyed by political spam that was sent to my work address (at least 4 messages, with a considerable size) Result: blacklisted mailing list messages from their provider (and notified them as well). While it might be legal, I personally find this behaviour unacceptable. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
> Shachar seems to suggest that this might be used for a small claims > court case in which the spammer may be sued for up to 1000 NIS per > email. > I'll donate the 1000 NIS right back into anti-spam efforts or to KDE or something. > Slightly off-topic: I got annoyed by political spam that was sent to my > work address (at least 4 messages, with a considerable size) Result: > blacklisted mailing list messages from their provider (and notified them > as well). > > While it might be legal, I personally find this behaviour unacceptable. > The spam I got was political spam as well. This is legal? The message said at the bottom that it is legal, but I doubt it. What is special about political spam that it is excepted from the law? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 07:11:59AM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: Shachar seems to suggest that this might be used for a small claims court case in which the spammer may be sued for up to 1000 NIS per email. Does this only cover email from Israel, or can it be SPAM from Israeli companies sent from outside of Israeli? Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel g...@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 09:25:51AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: > > Slightly off-topic: I got annoyed by political spam that was sent to my > > work address (at least 4 messages, with a considerable size) Result: > > blacklisted mailing list messages from their provider (and notified them > > as well). > > > > While it might be legal, I personally find this behaviour unacceptable. > > > > The spam I got was political spam as well. This is legal? The message > said at the bottom that it is legal, but I doubt it. What is special > about political spam that it is excepted from the law? It needs to be commercial to be illegal. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
RE: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Indeed it's legal. When the anti-spam law was passed, a special exemption was put in to allow politicians to send spam. IIRC, this was Leiberman's initiative. Rony -Original Message- From: linux-il-boun...@cs.huji.ac.il [mailto:linux-il-boun...@cs.huji.ac.il] On Behalf Of Dotan Cohen Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:26 AM To: linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il Subject: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it? > Shachar seems to suggest that this might be used for a small claims > court case in which the spammer may be sued for up to 1000 NIS per > email. > I'll donate the 1000 NIS right back into anti-spam efforts or to KDE or something. > Slightly off-topic: I got annoyed by political spam that was sent to my > work address (at least 4 messages, with a considerable size) Result: > blacklisted mailing list messages from their provider (and notified them > as well). > > While it might be legal, I personally find this behaviour unacceptable. > The spam I got was political spam as well. This is legal? The message said at the bottom that it is legal, but I doubt it. What is special about political spam that it is excepted from the law? -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-??-?-? ?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-? ?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-? ?-?-?-?-?-?-? ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
> It needs to be commercial to be illegal. > Really? If I have a website that I don't make money off of, like gibberish.co.il then can I send spam? I'll do it too, not in order to promote the site but in order to get the law changed. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 07:11:59AM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: Shachar seems to suggest that this might be used for a small claims court case in which the spammer may be sued for up to 1000 NIS per email. Does this only cover email from Israel, or can it be SPAM from Israeli companies sent from outside of Israeli? It covers any spam received in Israel, but if the company is not Israel there may be no one to sue. It follows that if the spammer is Israeli, it does not matter what language the email is in, nor how it was sent. Shachar ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Quoting Dotan Cohen : It needs to be commercial to be illegal. Really? If I have a website that I don't make money off of, like gibberish.co.il then can I send spam? I'll do it too, not in order to promote the site but in order to get the law changed. There is no chance that the law will be changed. First, politicians are the ones who are supposed to change it - and they have a vested interest in allowing political spam. Second, disallowing non-commercial spam may be regarded as an act against freedom of speech, and such an act may not pass Bagatz. The way the current law defines spam is as a message that induces you to spend money. So spam calling for donations is also illegal. Promoting causes, such as asking for signatures for Gilad Shalit, or banning silicon from dairy products, is legal. Herouth ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 10:25:53AM +0200, ronys wrote: > > Indeed it's legal. When the anti-spam law was passed, a special > exemption was put in to allow politicians to send spam. Not only politicians. Here's a conspiracy theory for you: We all know that ISOC is an NPO, and as such in a good position to still send spam. ISOC has been one of the main promoters of the law. This suggests that ISOC was interested to reserve itself the option to spam innocent Israely Internet users. The fact that this is completely unsupported by other facts (the declared position of ISOC, the opinions of ISOC board members as we know them, and the simple fact that ISOC has never (IIRC) resorted to sending spam before does not disprove that conspiracy theory (because it's impossible to disprove a conspiracy theory). > > IIRC, this was Leiberman's initiative. Before calling such names, please support your claim with facts. I'm no supprter of that MK you mentioned, however I expect my opinion to be based on solid facts. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
> The way the current law defines spam is as a message that induces you to > spend money. So spam calling for donations is also illegal. Promoting > causes, such as asking for signatures for Gilad Shalit, or banning silicon > from dairy products, is legal. > So a spam campaign abnout getting the spam law changed is valid? That's great! If you see such a campaign in the coming weeks, I invite you all to complain to me personally! I hate spam (I get over 2000 spam messages a day to my personal domain) but fire you fight with fire. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת ا-ب-ت-ث-ج-ح-خ-د-ذ-ر-ز-س-ش-ص-ض-ط-ظ-ع-غ-ف-ق-ك-ل-م-ن-ه-و-ي А-Б-В-Г-Д-Е-Ё-Ж-З-И-Й-К-Л-М-Н-О-П-Р-С-Т-У-Ф-Х-Ц-Ч-Ш-Щ-Ъ-Ы-Ь-Э-Ю-Я а-б-в-г-д-е-ё-ж-з-и-й-к-л-м-н-о-п-р-с-т-у-ф-х-ц-ч-ш-щ-ъ-ы-ь-э-ю-я ä-ö-ü-ß-Ä-Ö-Ü ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
[OFFTOPIC] RE: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
>From the contents of a relatively unfiltered mailbox (which fortunately is not widely advertised and I check it only once each few weeks), Leiberman indeed uses very much the political exemption. I got in that mailbox a lot of spam from: * Israel Beitanu (Leiberman's party) - sends tons of spam. No wonder he obtained the exemption, presumably already then he planned on utilizing this method of getting votes. * The party of the disabled (מפלגת הנכים) are spammers as well. * Israel Hazaka (Dr. Ephraim Sneh) are spammers as well. I already blogged about my annoyance at a party which I'd support otherwise but are now taboo because they are spammers (the party of the disabled). --- Omer On Sun, 2009-02-08 at 10:25 +0200, ronys wrote: > Indeed it's legal. When the anti-spam law was passed, a special exemption > was put in to allow politicians to send spam. > > IIRC, this was Leiberman's initiative. > > Rony -- Not voting in an election is like voting for the candidate, whom you hate the most. My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Similarly, due to time constraints I'm not currently performing any active steps with the several spam emails that I have received lately, all from some coaching/spiritual spammer. If there's a lawyer or someone with enough spare time on his hands in the crowd who wishes to raise the glove please reply privately. Boaz. Dotan Cohen wrote: I have started getting Hebrew spam again, even now that the new anti-spam law is in place. Sure, I _could_ just filter it, but I would prefer to make life miserable for the spammers, even at my own expense. What legal tools do I have? ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Tal Kaplan, from pczlaw, was kind enough to give me a detailed explanation(*) about this matter. First, to answer both Dotan and Boaz, it should be a relatively simple process to get 1,000 NIS for every incoming hebrew spam. Think about it as a gift from a stranger. The process is documented on the isoc site (link was given in some other post in this thread). Remember you have to prove very little (that you got the spam) while they have to prove a lot (that you gave them permission to send you spam. They need to actually PROVE it). Second, involving a lawyer will not help - you need to sue in small claims court, since the 'hashaom' court will look at you strangely if you come claiming such a small sum. Neither hashalom nor small claims court set precedence so it doesn't really matter. The cost (legal and otherwise) in small claims is much lower. So for all these reasons small claims is the way to go unless you are going to file a TVIA IZUGIT which you probably don't want to do unless you have a lot of free time. The only down side is that in small claims you have to file and appear yourself, without a lawyer. This is basically the reason I haven't done it yet. I'm saving my gifts^H^H^H^H^Hhebrew spam in a special folder for when I will have a few free hours to put it in the isoc tempate and go to small claims to file it. Spam keeps piling up in it and it gives me the feeling of a piggy bank. Oh, how things have turned. (*) This is the explanation as I remember it. If there are inaccuracies it is probably my bad memory and not Tal's fault. - Aviram On Sunday 08 February 2009 11:16:41 Boaz Rymland wrote: > Similarly, due to time constraints I'm not currently performing any > active steps with the several spam emails that I have received lately, > all from some coaching/spiritual spammer. > > If there's a lawyer or someone with enough spare time on his hands in > the crowd who wishes to raise the glove please reply privately. > > > Boaz. > > Dotan Cohen wrote: > > I have started getting Hebrew spam again, even now that the new > > anti-spam law is in place. Sure, I _could_ just filter it, but I would > > prefer to make life miserable for the spammers, even at my own > > expense. What legal tools do I have? > > ___ > Linux-il mailing list > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On Sun, Feb 08, 2009 at 09:18:13PM -0800, Aviram Jenik wrote: to get 1,000 NIS for every incoming hebrew spam. Think about it as a gift from a stranger. The process is documented on the isoc site (link was given in some other post in this thread). Remember you have to prove very little (that you got the spam) while they have to prove a lot (that you gave them permission to send you spam. They need to actually PROVE it). Well, I find that hard to believe. You will eventually have to prove that you received the SPAM from them. and that you did not alter it in any way. All they have to do is ONCE send a judge a SPAM email from someone else, and the whole house of cards collapses. It was very common to forge usenet headers on April 1st, and forging email headers is even easier. You would also have to prove, under penalty of perjury, that the email in your folder did not have anything added, deleted or changed. Eventually someone less honest than you will do exactly that, create a fake set of emails from someone else to make them pay. I've heard of cases, in Israel, falling apart due to one typo on a report header. You IMHO should be glad that you live in Israel, from my limited understanding of US law, saving the emails with the intention of collecting money and suggesting that others do too, instead of notifying the sender when you got the first one, may subject you to prosecution under the RICO act. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel g...@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
"Not so fast"... On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 21:18:13 -0800, Aviram Jenik wrote: > Tal Kaplan, from pczlaw, was kind enough to give me a detailed > explanation(*) > about this matter. > > First, to answer both Dotan and Boaz, it should be a relatively simple > process > to get 1,000 NIS for every incoming hebrew spam. Think about it as a gift > from a stranger. The process is documented on the isoc site (link was > given > in some other post in this thread). Remember you have to prove very little > > (that you got the spam) while they have to prove a lot (that you gave them > > permission to send you spam. They need to actually PROVE it). > > Second, involving a lawyer will not help - you need to sue in small claims > > court, since the 'hashaom' court will look at you strangely if you come > claiming such a small sum. Neither hashalom nor small claims court set > precedence so it doesn't really matter. The cost (legal and otherwise) in > small claims is much lower. So for all these reasons small claims is the > way > to go unless you are going to file a TVIA IZUGIT which you probably don't > want to do unless you have a lot of free time. I know, I know. I read at the time quite well the internet resources (like on ISOC) on the procedures and implications of the new law. > > The only down side is that in small claims you have to file and appear > yourself, without a lawyer. This is basically the reason I haven't done it > > yet. I'm saving my gifts^H^H^H^H^Hhebrew spam in a special folder for when > I > will have a few free hours to put it in the isoc tempate and go to small > claims to file it. Spam keeps piling up in it and it gives me the feeling > of > a piggy bank. Oh, how things have turned. That's exactly the reason why I haven't done it myself as well. The necessity to appear in court which means taking a day off or something. A few complimentary questions: 1) Have anyone heard of successful small claims suits so far? Is it that easy, straight-forward and pretty sure to have a win? 2) Are you NOT allowed to be represented by somebody authorized by you? (YIPUI KOACH). 3) Anyone know if I can accumulate and coordinate several suits, administratively, to one court appearance? If the answer is yes, then that would make it easy for me to proceed, since 1000 NIS isn't that much when you deduct the day off cost you have in your standard day time job. Boaz. > > > (*) This is the explanation as I remember it. If there are inaccuracies it > is > probably my bad memory and not Tal's fault. > > - Aviram > > > > On Sunday 08 February 2009 11:16:41 Boaz Rymland wrote: >> Similarly, due to time constraints I'm not currently performing any >> active steps with the several spam emails that I have received lately, >> all from some coaching/spiritual spammer. >> >> If there's a lawyer or someone with enough spare time on his hands in >> the crowd who wishes to raise the glove please reply privately. >> >> >> Boaz. >> >> Dotan Cohen wrote: >> > I have started getting Hebrew spam again, even now that the new >> > anti-spam law is in place. Sure, I _could_ just filter it, but I would >> > prefer to make life miserable for the spammers, even at my own >> > expense. What legal tools do I have? >> >> ___ >> Linux-il mailing list >> Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il >> http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [OFFTOPIC] RE: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Omer Zak wrote: >From the contents of a relatively unfiltered mailbox (which fortunately is not widely advertised and I check it only once each few weeks), Leiberman indeed uses very much the political exemption. I got in that mailbox a lot of spam from: * Israel Beitanu (Leiberman's party) - sends tons of spam. No wonder he obtained the exemption, presumably already then he planned on utilizing this method of getting votes. * The party of the disabled (מפלגת הנכים) are spammers as well. * Israel Hazaka (Dr. Ephraim Sneh) are spammers as well. Didn't get the Sneh junk mail, but did get junk mail from the Likud. Shachar ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
b...@rymland.com wrote: You may want to start with this: http://www.moital.gov.il/NR/exeres/1A0A7AB5-68D4-4739-801D-44390FEE7A39.htm > > That's exactly the reason why I haven't done it myself as well. The > > necessity to appear in court > > which means taking a day off or something. > > > > A few complimentary questions: > > 1) Have anyone heard of successful small claims suits so far? Is it that > > easy, straight-forward and > > pretty sure to have a win? > > > Generally or specifically on spam? > > 2) Are you NOT allowed to be represented by somebody authorized by you? > > (YIPUI KOACH). > > > See (4) in the above URL. > > 3) Anyone know if I can accumulate and coordinate several suits, > > administratively, to one court appearance? > If each claim is against a separate entity then they are separate claims, and you don't get to set the court dates. > > If the > > answer is yes, then that would make it easy for me to proceed, since 1000 > > NIS isn't that much when you deduct the day off cost you have in your > > standard day time job. > > > > Boaz. > > > > > > > > > -- Thanks, Uri http://translation.israel.net Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
b...@rymland.com wrote: That's exactly the reason why I haven't done it myself as well. The necessity to appear in court which means taking a day off or something. You can add that cost to the claim. A few complimentary questions: 1) Have anyone heard of successful small claims suits so far? Is it that easy, straight-forward and pretty sure to have a win? 2) Are you NOT allowed to be represented by somebody authorized by you? (YIPUI KOACH). If memory serves me right, you are allowed to send someone. Just not a lawyer. You need special permission to be represented by a lawyer in small claims, and as far as I can understand it, it is rarely given. 3) Anyone know if I can accumulate and coordinate several suits, administratively, to one court appearance? Probably no. Small claims is somewhat unofficial, so it is hard to represent someone else. Also, you will soon run against the small claims ceiling (~19K NIS). If the answer is yes, then that would make it easy for me to proceed, since 1000 NIS isn't that much when you deduct the day off cost you have in your standard day time job. Just accumulate several spams from the same spammer. Boaz. Shachar ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: Well, I find that hard to believe. You will eventually have to prove that you received the SPAM from them. and that you did not alter it in any way. The law is very specific that having your name appearing on the spam as the one being advertised is sufficient evidence that you are the presumed spammer. I imagine that, should the spammer want to claim they are not, the burden of proof is on them, not you. In any case, it should be fairly easy to prove. Just call the number and appear to be an interested customer. Shachar ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 11:24:34AM +0200, Shachar Shemesh wrote: The law is very specific that having your name appearing on the spam as the one being advertised is sufficient evidence that you are the presumed spammer. I imagine that, should the spammer want to claim they are not, the burden of proof is on them, not you. Oh, so I could send out email for Fred's Open Source Consulting, munge the headers to look like him and put him out of business. In any case, it should be fairly easy to prove. Just call the number and appear to be an interested customer. How do you present that in court? Does Israel allow recorded phone converstations without the other side being aware of it? What would you say? I got your email and want to buy ? Would anyone in their right mind say "we did not send you an email, it must have been someone else" and possibly lose the sale? Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel g...@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 11:24:34AM +0200, Shachar Shemesh wrote: The law is very specific that having your name appearing on the spam as the one being advertised is sufficient evidence that you are the presumed spammer. I imagine that, should the spammer want to claim they are not, the burden of proof is on them, not you. Oh, so I could send out email for Fred's Open Source Consulting, munge the headers to look like him and put him out of business. Well, put him into hardship, certainly. Yes, this is one of the drawbacks of the law. In any case, it should be fairly easy to prove. Just call the number and appear to be an interested customer. How do you present that in court? Does Israel allow recorded phone converstations without the other side being aware of it? Yes (IANAL) What would you say? I got your email and want to buy ? Would anyone in their right mind say "we did not send you an email, it must have been someone else" and possibly lose the sale? I would. Geoff. Shachar ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On Mon, Feb 09, 2009, Shachar Shemesh wrote about "Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?": > Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: > > > >Well, I find that hard to believe. You will eventually have to prove > >that you received the SPAM from them. and that you did not alter it in > >any way. >... > In any case, it should be fairly easy to prove. Just call the number and > appear to be an interested customer. I don't think it is so easy to *prove* who sent you the spam. If you can be assumed not to lie, and that the email you are showing the court is authentic, and advertising the sued company, it still says nothing about who sent the ad. A few years ago, I got to my personal mail a spam from my employer. This really pissed me off, and I went to discuss this with the CEO. It turns out that our company had a bunch of resellers selling our products, and (at least, according to him) one of these resellers decide to be industrious and "advertise" using spam. What do you do in such a case? What do you if the spamvertiser just pretends that this is the case when in fact he was very much aware of what was going on? What do you do if the spamvertiser claims he himself paid somebody for "advertising", but didn't know that other person would spam? What do you do if the spamvertiser claims he has nothing to do with the spam, but rather his competitor sent out this spam to tarnish his reputation and entangle him in lawsuites? Frankly I don't see at all how this would be easy to prove, without any ISPs or law enforcement agencies to be involved. I personally don't think this "civil law" (as opposed to criminal law) approach to spam would work, especially when the sums involved are around 1000 shekels. But I'll be happy to be proved wrong. Has anybody every heard of anyone actually winning a court case like this? -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Feb 9 2009, 15 Shevat 5769 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Vote, n.: A person's right to make a fool http://nadav.harel.org.il |of himself and a wreck of his country. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Nadav Har'El wrote: What do you do in such a case? Sue. The law specifically says that the person in charge of marketing must make a personal effort to make sure that the company is spam free, or face PERSONAL consequences. In any case, like I said before, it's up to the spammer to prove they didn't. Shachar ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
On Sunday 08 February 2009 23:42:54 b...@rymland.com wrote: > > The only down side is that in small claims you have to file and appear > > yourself, without a lawyer. This is basically the reason I haven't done > > it > > > yet. > That's exactly the reason why I haven't done it myself as well. The > necessity to appear in court > which means taking a day off or something. > Agreed. The only reason I wrote what I did is to let you know the legal opinion that I've heard: You can't 'outsource' it. For many people, though, 1,000 NIS is worth a day off from work (not to mention the satisfaction). > > Boaz. > - Aviram ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
According to a couple of recent Hebrew spams that I got, there's a loophole allowing ONE spam message per spammer per email address. They say that the law allows sending one message if it is an offer for registration to a publicity list (they can't send you more if you do not respond), so basically if the message contains some link saying "go here to get more such offers", you'd have to collect at least two different spams from the same publisher in order to sue. I did not read the law so I do not know if this is true or not (I did read the spams, because they had an angry/offended tone, which was amusing). - Amit ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Amit Aronovitch wrote: According to a couple of recent Hebrew spams that I got, there's a loophole allowing ONE spam message per spammer per email address. They say that the law allows sending one message if it is an offer for registration to a publicity list (they can't send you more if you do not respond), so basically if the message contains some link saying "go here to get more such offers", you'd have to collect at least two different spams from the same publisher in order to sue. I did not read the law so I do not know if this is true or not (I did read the spams, because they had an angry/offended tone, which was amusing). - Amit IAMNAL 1. Go to http://www.isoc.org.il/spam and read the law 2. The relevant source here is the Spammer, not the address nor the technology. 3. The content matters only to determine if it will promote commercial goals of the spammers. So if a link in a message does that by refering to a downstream site, it doesn't matter. 4. If the receipient is not a business, then any number of messages greater than zero is spam, otherwise greater than one. -- Moish ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: OFFTOPIC: Re: Hebrew spam: what to do about it?
Quoting Aviram Jenik, from the post of Mon, 09 Feb: > On Sunday 08 February 2009 23:42:54 b...@rymland.com wrote: > > > The only down side is that in small claims you have to file and appear > > > yourself, without a lawyer. This is basically the reason I haven't done > > Agreed. The only reason I wrote what I did is to let you know the legal > opinion that I've heard: You can't 'outsource' it. > > For many people, though, 1,000 NIS is worth a day off from work (not to > mention the satisfaction). I'm sure there's something we can do to centralize the filings and get all the money donated for a good cause. We just need an unemployed volunteer who would do it for a 15% cut :-) We may be crappy Jews who give away knowledge and software, but if we dig back in our genes, I'm sure we can find a solution :-) That's an interesting project for ISOC+Hamakor to collaborate on, and for all the new unemployed software people to tackle... getting payed for fighting Email annoyances? Super... I can supply you with proof and logs about how my server is keeling over, and spamassassin taking precious CPU cycles from Apache each time there's a spam attack. this is measurable damage that can even raise the claims. plus if enough people join a lawsuit, it can be taken to a higher court, and save us the personal presence in court. Anyone here got an unemployed law graduate friend who will work for a cut of the winnings? It's a win-win situation :) -- Your I-ching reading Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
