Re: Airs de Cour - transposing the voice

[Jon Murphy]

I have to go with Candace on this one. I have been sight reading for voice
for over 55 years. "Perfect pitch" in a singer can be a handicap. What one
needs is the perfection of the intervals and the memory of the tonic pitch
for the duration of the piece. ( I remember a man in my old a cappella group
of fifty years ago who had "perfect pitch", But his was a different
frequency than the rest of the world, he was always flat).

And Gordon, with no insult to your intelligence intended, I think your
professor at McGill (my father's alma mater) had perfect "relative pitch"
rather than "perfect pitch". Just the fact that you say it was tunable. Give
a singer with a good pitch memory the initial note and he can go on forever
on that piece. I used to impress audences by playing a guitar chord to open
a long "story type" folk song of five minutes or so - sing the song a
capella - then take the risk of closing it with the same chord. I seldom
missed by more than a sixteenth tone, and was usually right on target within
a few cents.

Candace has it right, the singer cares nothing for the key as long as the
key is within his or her range. In my harp ensemble I often have to sing a
new piece for the group in order for us to get the feel of the note values,
but I don't try to stretch my aging voice to the key we are to play it in.
The voice is a wonderful instrument with infinite variety. All instruments
are digital, in a sense, and the voice is analogue. But they compliment each
other.

Best, Jon

Re: Airs de Cour - transposing the voice

[Howard Posner]

Stewart McCoy at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> As often as not, transposing the voice part to match a lute in G
> brings the singer's notes into a sensible range. For example, airs
> de cour which imply a lute in A tend to have quite a high range. By
> transposing down a tone for the sake of a lute in G, you avoid those
> horrible high squeeky notes like top g" and a".

French pitch always tended to be low, and at least by the late 1600's
Parisian pitch was a whole tone lower than A=440, which is to say a lute in
A would have been, in modern terms, a lute in G.

HP

Re: Airs de Cour

[Stewart McCoy]

- Original Message -
From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:43 PM
Subject: Airs de Cour


> Dear David,
>
> You are right to say that you could change the pitch of the
> tablature (i.e. use different sizes of lute). That would work as
> well as changing the pitch of the voice. Something has to change,
so
> it could be either voice or lute. The trouble is, it is more
> tempting to think that the lute needs changing, because tablature
> doesn't specify pitch as staff notation does. In the past people
saw
> the staff notation as sacred.

I'm sorry. This is not clear. I mean scholars until fairly recently
saw the staff notation as sacred. "In the past" here means within
the last few decades, not 400 years ago.

Stewart.

Re: Using hide glue.

[Howard Posner]

Wayne Cripps at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> You can (and I have) used unflavored gelatin as hide glue.
> It doesn't smell so bad as some hide glues sold as such...

Can you recommend a particular product?  It sounds perfect for repairing a
ukelele that my kids will doubtless smash up again soon.

Howard

Re: Developing Thumb under speed (fwd)

[Wayne Cripps]

I have seen quite a few messages from people questioning thumb
under technique who are 1) teaching themselves and 2) only
giving it a few weeks.  I think this is a mistake!  I myself am
one of those people who has picked up a lot of musical instruments
on my own, with sometimes good results, but it took me several
years of lessons with several excellent teachers to get a good
thumb under technique, both tone and speed.  I also feel that 
the advantages of thumb under technique manifest themselves on a lightly
strung instrument, whereas the standard classical guitar technique
brings out the best of a more heavily strung instrument.  So people
who put guitar weight strings on their lute won't hear the reasons
for a thumb under technique.

My advice - go to the LSA seminar.  Really!  No excuses!  You will see and
hear it all there in one place, in one week.

Wayne

>
> But I am still not convinced that the thumb-under technique is really an
> advantage over the classical guitar technique of thumb on the lower
courses and
> index and second fingers on the upper courses.  The thumb-under technique
still
> seems to be some sort of musical hairshirt to me.  And I don't see how it
is
> any less awkward than the thumb-upper-course, index-lower course classical
> guitar technique.  But I have never tried either that or the thumb-under
> technique.  I just don't want to spend six months learning some awkward
right-hand
> technique like that when I could be building my repetoire with real music.
>
> Please understand I am self-taught on the guitar and the lute.  I have
used
> some instruction books.  But never have I never seen anything that
describes
> the thumb playing the three upper courses and the index finger playing the
lower
> courses on the guitar.  Why would anyone use anything as seemingly
difficult
> as that?  In what kind of music would that be an advantage over the thumb
> playing the lower courses and the index, middle, and even third fingers
playing
> the higher courses?  You say that there are some passages that require the
thumb

Re: Airs de Cour

[Gordon J. Callon]

I am familiar with perfect pitch; please do not insult my 
intelligence or training. (My composition professor at McGill, Bruce
Mather, had moveable / tunable perfect pitch that was entirely
automatic: whatever pitch level the ensemble tuned to - whether
A=440Hz or whatever, he automatically adjusted.)

The reality is that perfect pitch is not too useful in music where
instruments may be tuned to A=440Hz in one ensemble and 417Hz in
another.

GJC

> 
> Dear Gordon (and the List)
> 
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, Gordon J. Callon wrote:
> 
> > [Singers of early music do not use absolute pitch since early
> > instruments are pitched at various levels in any case.]
> 
> Well, when someone has the "absolute pitch", he/she has it!
> The memory of pitches, not the memory of note names...
> There is no way of "not using" it... The pitch which is 
> _called_ for ex. f sharp or f, e or e flat, etc. is anyhow
> the _pitch_ you know! Only the _names_ may vary! Well, and
> then there are the different non equal tuning systems... ;)
> 
> All the best
> 
> Arto
> 

Re: Using hide glue. (fwd)

[Wayne Cripps]

> From: Herbert Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Using hide glue.
> 
> 
> I see, hide glue is more like jello than solder.
> 

Hide glue *is jello*  (without the sugar, food color, and flavor.)
You can (and I have) used unflavored gelatin as hide glue.
It doesn't smell so bad as some hide glues sold as such...

Wayne

Re: Developing Thumb under speed

[Vance Wood]

Hi Carl:

The thumb and index fingers are used to play the rapid passages in much the
same way a plectrum is used.  If you think of it in that way it might make a
bit more sense.  Understand in Renaissance music the rapid runs are to be by
actually striking each note.  In a lot of Classical Guitar music the rapid
playing is done by slurring, (hammering and pulling off) certain notes which
means that you do not have to actually move the digits of the right hand as
rapidly as the music is suggesting.  I don't know if you play that way, I
would be surprised if you did not.  However if you can play those notes,
1/16, 1/32, and 1/64 notes by alternating the index and middle fingers all
the more power to you, I never could.

One prime example of my point, that often the index finger reaches over the
thumb, can be found in the final cadence of The Earl of Essex's Galliard
(John Dowland).  With the thumb out this passage is awkward and difficult to
play using thumb and index unless you do it thumb under, then it just falls
right into place.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: Developing Thumb under speed


> Dear Mr. Wood:
>
> Thank you for explaining that to me.  For years I was puzzled why everyone
> was insisting on using this thumb under technique when classical guitar
> technique seemed so much easier with the same results.
>
> But I am still not convinced that the thumb-under technique is really an
> advantage over the classical guitar technique of thumb on the lower
courses and
> index and second fingers on the upper courses.  The thumb-under technique
still
> seems to be some sort of musical hairshirt to me.  And I don't see how it
is
> any less awkward than the thumb-upper-course, index-lower course classical
> guitar technique.  But I have never tried either that or the thumb-under
> technique.  I just don't want to spend six months learning some awkward
right-hand
> technique like that when I could be building my repetoire with real music.
>
> Please understand I am self-taught on the guitar and the lute.  I have
used
> some instruction books.  But never have I never seen anything that
describes
> the thumb playing the three upper courses and the index finger playing the
lower
> courses on the guitar.  Why would anyone use anything as seemingly
difficult
> as that?  In what kind of music would that be an advantage over the thumb
> playing the lower courses and the index, middle, and even third fingers
playing
> the higher courses?  You say that there are some passages that require the
thumb
> to play the upper course and the index the lower course.  In fifteen years
of
> playing, I have never encountered any music that would "require" such an
> awkward right-hand fingering that can't be done much more easily and
competently
> with the thumb-lower courses-index-upper courses technique.  But I
certainly
> don't claim to have played the entire guitar literature either.
>
> I am not saying you are wrong but do you have any well-known examples?
> Thanks for your comments and attention to this issue.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Carl Mounteer
>
>
> .

Re: Using hide glue.

[Vance Wood]

Hi Herbert:

Hide glue does not dry quite that fast, you still have a couple of minutes
working time.  Even if is does set up to a point where it seems unworkable a
little heat will usually soften it enough to work with.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: "Herbert Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:33 AM
Subject: Using hide glue.


>
> I think lutes are assembled mainly with hide glue?  And it does not dry,
> but rather you have to heat it?
>
> So, my question is, this seems impractical.  If you spread the hot glue in
> a 0.5-1.0 mm layer, it would cool before you could get the second piece of
> wood positioned.  Indeed, I suspect just spreading it evenly would be
> difficult.
>
> If the second piece were thin like a soundboard, you could "iron" it on,
> but this wouldn't work for gluing braces or necks.  I guess you could do
> braces with a heat gun, but the Renaissance lute builders did not have
> them.
>
>

lute photography

[Manolo Laguillo]

Dear Martin,

Days ago I send you privately some hints about photographing with a 
digital camera, and about lighting. Did you receive my messages?

Kind regards,

Manolo Laguillo
Barcelona

--

Re: Do pegs get smooth and begin slipping?

[Vance Wood]

That's true, but most of the tropical hardwoods are down right toxic, and
woods like Yew and Cypress are both toxic for domestic woods.  Roman is
right saw dust is not good for you, but some is far worse causing sever
allergic reactions and significant respiratory distress.  Always wear a
respirator, a dust mask is not enough, when major sawing and sanding
procedures are taking place or you can cause yourself damage.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Ron Fletcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: Do pegs get smooth and begin slipping?


> Jon, pretty much any saw dust is toxic (even pine). This is definitely
> OSHA'a opinion.
> RT
> __
> Roman M. Turovsky
> http://turovsky.org
> http://polyhymnion.org
>
> > Poison needs to be absorbed or ingested (or injected, but avoid
scorpians
> > and venomous snakes). Either way it has to be loose enough, or floating
> > enough, to get into your system. I'll lick that Laburnum peg, but I
don't
> > think I'll chew it up and swallow it (and my teeth aren't that strong
> > anyway).
>
>

Re: Do pegs get smooth and begin slipping?

[Vance Wood]

Hi Jon:

I have never had that kind of problem when it comes to pegs.  Understanding
that pegs are generally not turned from wood where growth ring run out is an
issue to much of a degree.  I believe most of the problems come from the
relationship between the peg and the hole not being perfect, and or the wood
for the peg/pegs is not one of the previously mentioned species.  If the
relationship between the peg and the hole is not based upon woods of similar
properties then the natural expansion and contraction of wood over the
passage of  normal year is going to be dissimilar.  This can cause one of
two things to happen, the pegs will become overly tight and become difficult
to turn, or they can become loose and slip a great deal. As has been pointed
out earlier the use of Ebony for pegs can actually grind the holes for the
pegs larger and in some cases make them elliptical.  However, regardless of
why and how this happens it is one of the several annoying traits common
with owning, and trying to play, the Lute.  The better the marriage between
pegs and peg box in both cut and compatible materials will go a long way in
lessening these problems.

Vance Wood.
- Original Message - 
From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Herbert Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Steve Ramey"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Do pegs get smooth and begin slipping?


> Steve,
>
> You mention the way a log shrinks. You are right. Along with fussing with
> instruments I also am a wood turner. No matter how well dried wood will
have
> a differential shrinkage until it becomes part of the Petrified Forest. It
> is just a matter of how much and in which direction. A tree is made of the
> heart wood (the early growth, which normally is of a different color in
the
> cross section). The heart wood is a bit brittle. Then you have the annual
> growth, with the youngest and most moist on the outside. But no mattter
the
> place you cut the log the rings will always have a curve. The most stable
> wood is what is called "quarter sawn", the arc of the annuallar rings is
> less than near the center, and the wood is older than that near the
surface.
>
> I'll not go further unless anyone wants me to. One learns a lot about wood
> when turning bowls, goblets and other sorts of things.
>
> Best, Jon
>
>
>

Re: Airs de Cour

[Arto Wikla]

Dear Gordon (and the List)

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, Gordon J. Callon wrote:

> [Singers of early music do not use absolute pitch since early 
> instruments are pitched at various levels in any case.]

Well, when someone has the "absolute pitch", he/she has it!
The memory of pitches, not the memory of note names...
There is no way of "not using" it... The pitch which is 
_called_ for ex. f sharp or f, e or e flat, etc. is anyhow
the _pitch_ you know! Only the _names_ may vary! Well, and
then there are the different non equal tuning systems... ;)

All the best

Arto

Airs de Cour

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David,

You are right to say that you could change the pitch of the
tablature (i.e. use different sizes of lute). That would work as
well as changing the pitch of the voice. Something has to change, so
it could be either voice or lute. The trouble is, it is more
tempting to think that the lute needs changing, because tablature
doesn't specify pitch as staff notation does. In the past people saw
the staff notation as sacred.

One song which confirms that the singer needs to transpose comes in
Robert Dowland's _A Musicall Banquet_ (London, 1610). There may be
more songs, I can't remember. The cantus is in D minor with one flat
in the key signature. If the lute is a lute in G, the tablature is
in C minor. Which is correct? Answer: the lute, because there is
also a separate bass part with lots of flats in the key signature
for C minor. In other words, the two parts in staff notation do not
match. Now, if it is convenient for the cantus singer to have a
transposing part, why doesn't the bass singer have a transposing
part too? The reason, I think, is because the bass part (which has
words) may be sung or played on a bass viol. A viol player would not
thank you for a transposing part, so the bass stays in C minor. The
bass singer just has to get on with all the flats. Anyway, my point
is that the apparent bitonality of the two parts in staff notation
confirms that it is the cantus which needs to be transposed.

The rubric for the lutenist to give the singer his first note is
just a way of sorting out what pitch the singer is to sing in
relation to the lute. It doesn't matter whether this is a high pitch
(little lute) or low pitch (big lute). They just need to know how to
match up their separate parts.

I'm sorry to be so predictable on the "we've discussed it before".
Part of me says, "Don't say that", because it may be seen as a
put-down to people new to the List. I never mean it like that. If we
have discussed something before, it's unfair on those who read it to
keep being sent the same information, yet I don't want people who
missed it first time round to miss out altogether. I reason with
myself that if someone really wants to follow it up, they can dig it
out of the archives. By the way, if you can't find your way round
the archives, I'm happy to send you a copy off-list, as long as I
can find it. It's usually easy to find old threads if they have
sensible titles; it's virtually impossible to find them if the title
doesn't give a clue to the content of the thread. I can usually find
the old threads which I contributed to myself, because I can list
all
the messages according to Sender, and all mine are then together.
Then I flick through my messages (which I can usually remember
pretty well), and that leads me on to what other people wrote. The
trouble is, I've sent in so many messages now, there's a lot to wade
through.

It's gone 9.30 pm. Time to go to the pub.

All the best,

Stewart.


- Original Message -
From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Airs de Cour


> Dear Stewart,
>
> You wrote:
>
> > ...The lute stays the same; the voice transposes.
> >
> > The key signature for the singer will be either one flat or no
flat,
> > instead of a large block of flats for distant keys like F minor.
The
> > music is written this way to make it easier for the singer to
read.
> >
> > I know of just two exceptions: one is in Pisador (1552), and the
> > other is a late 17th-century English song with tablature for
> > theorbo. In both these songs the singer has a transposing part
where
> > the key signature has two flats.
> >
> > There are hundreds of songs (probably thousands) where the voice
> > part needs to transpose to match the pitch of the lute. The
earliest
> > examples I can think of for this practice are in Bossinensis
(1509
> > and 1511). Schlick followed soon after in 1512. Off the back of
my
> > head I think of Verdelot (1536), Phalese (1553), Edward Paston's
Lbl
> > Add 31992, the Turpyn Book of Lute Songs, Robert Dowland's _A
> > Musicall Banquet (1610). There are many more, particularly in
France
> > with books of airs de cour in the first half of the 17th
century.
>
> When you say that "the voice part needs to transpose to match the
pitch
> of the lute," you are telling me something I never thought was the
> case!  I always thought it was the other way around:  that the
voice
> part was etched in stone, and the lutenist had to be able to
supply a
> lute tuned at an appropriate pitch to match it.  Surely one could
use
> either approach, if one has the appropriate lute to hand?
>
> > Where transposition is the order of the day, there is a rubric,
or
> > tablature letter or number, to give the singer his first note.
>
> But wouldn't that first note depend upon the tuning of the lute?
>
> > This question has been discussed on the List before from time to
> > time

Airs de Cour - transposing the voice

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Candace,

As often as not, transposing the voice part to match a lute in G
brings the singer's notes into a sensible range. For example, airs
de cour which imply a lute in A tend to have quite a high range. By
transposing down a tone for the sake of a lute in G, you avoid those
horrible high squeeky notes like top g" and a".

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Candace Magner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: Airs de Cour - transposing the voice


> Dear Luties,
>
> As a singer I can tell you that we almost never care if we have to
> transpose. The voice is infinitely transposable -- well, not
*infinitely*,
> but until a transposition puts a song out of our singing range it
is not
> difficulty at all to sing in another key. Those singers who
sight-read music
> the best have, counter-intuitively, more trouble. We tend to look
at a note
> on the staff and know how it should feel in our voice, so a piece
with wide
> interval jumps might land us in the 'wrong part' of a chord
(choosing the
> 5th instead of a 3rd, for example). Those who are 'ear people'
have no
> trouble at all. Those few with perfect pitch go crazy, but they
are used to
> that ;-)
>
> As a baby baroque guitarist, I can say that I would MUCH rather
have the
> instrumentalist play where they want, in whatever A-tuning they
have (A=440,
> A=415, whatever) and do the voice transposition in my head, than
be playing
> and have to transpose.
>
> Incidentally, this is the sort of 'transposing' we do when we are
reading in
> clefs. If I am reading soprano clef instead of a [normal] G-treble
clef I
> just read intervals, I am never thinking actual pitches.
>
> Candace

Re: Airs de Cour

[Gordon J. Callon]

> But wouldn't that first note depend upon the tuning of the lute?

Simple, really: 
The lute player plucks the introductory note indicated by the 
tablature; 
the singer hears this as their first note and everything in the rest 
of the tune is just relative to that.

[Singers of early music do not use absolute pitch since early 
instruments are pitched at various levels in any case.]

GJC

Re: Using hide glue.

[Herbert Ward]

I see, hide glue is more like jello than solder.

Student Lute For Sale

[Randy Miller]

 

 

I have a 8 Course Renaissance Student Lute for sale. I have it listed on
ebay. I have used this instrument for 3 years to learn to play the lute and
am now upgrading to a upper range model. This lute has just been worked and
freshly resetup by on of the best luthiers in this area. The lute has new
strings and new frets installed. She play great, tunes very good and stays
in tune. This instrument has a good sound too. Here is the URL to the
luthier that did the work on this lute
http://members.aol.com/rogluthier/index.html?f=fs . The Lute comes with a
hardshell case. The URL to the Ebay listing is below. Pass the word. 

 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem
 &item=3703814598&ssPageName=ADME:B:LC:US:1


--

Re: Airs de Cour - transposing the voice

[Candace Magner]

Dear Luties,

As a singer I can tell you that we almost never care if we have to
transpose. The voice is infinitely transposable -- well, not *infinitely*,
but until a transposition puts a song out of our singing range it is not
difficulty at all to sing in another key. Those singers who sight-read music
the best have, counter-intuitively, more trouble. We tend to look at a note
on the staff and know how it should feel in our voice, so a piece with wide
interval jumps might land us in the 'wrong part' of a chord (choosing the
5th instead of a 3rd, for example). Those who are 'ear people' have no
trouble at all. Those few with perfect pitch go crazy, but they are used to
that ;-)

As a baby baroque guitarist, I can say that I would MUCH rather have the
instrumentalist play where they want, in whatever A-tuning they have (A=440,
A=415, whatever) and do the voice transposition in my head, than be playing
and have to transpose.

Incidentally, this is the sort of 'transposing' we do when we are reading in
clefs. If I am reading soprano clef instead of a [normal] G-treble clef I
just read intervals, I am never thinking actual pitches.

Candace

Dr. Candace A. Magner
University of New Mexico - Los Alamos   Dept of Fine Arts/Music
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
homepage http://clik.to/candace


- Original Message -
From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Airs de Cour


> Dear Stewart,
>
> You wrote:
>
> > ...The lute stays the same; the voice transposes.
> >
> > The key signature for the singer will be either one flat or no flat,
> > instead of a large block of flats for distant keys like F minor. The
> > music is written this way to make it easier for the singer to read.
> >
> > I know of just two exceptions: one is in Pisador (1552), and the
> > other is a late 17th-century English song with tablature for
> > theorbo. In both these songs the singer has a transposing part where
> > the key signature has two flats.
> >
> > There are hundreds of songs (probably thousands) where the voice
> > part needs to transpose to match the pitch of the lute. The earliest
> > examples I can think of for this practice are in Bossinensis (1509
> > and 1511). Schlick followed soon after in 1512. Off the back of my
> > head I think of Verdelot (1536), Phalese (1553), Edward Paston's Lbl
> > Add 31992, the Turpyn Book of Lute Songs, Robert Dowland's _A
> > Musicall Banquet (1610). There are many more, particularly in France
> > with books of airs de cour in the first half of the 17th century.
>
> When you say that "the voice part needs to transpose to match the pitch
> of the lute," you are telling me something I never thought was the
> case!  I always thought it was the other way around:  that the voice
> part was etched in stone, and the lutenist had to be able to supply a
> lute tuned at an appropriate pitch to match it.  Surely one could use
> either approach, if one has the appropriate lute to hand?
>
> > Where transposition is the order of the day, there is a rubric, or
> > tablature letter or number, to give the singer his first note.
>
> But wouldn't that first note depend upon the tuning of the lute?
>
> > This question has been discussed on the List before from time to
> > time.
>
> Stewart, how come I knew you were going to say that?  :-)  :-)  :-)
> Okay, so I wasn't listening the first time...although I do recall that
> thread.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
>

Re: Airs de Cour

[David Rastall]

Dear Stewart,

You wrote:

> ...The lute stays the same; the voice transposes.
>
> The key signature for the singer will be either one flat or no flat,
> instead of a large block of flats for distant keys like F minor. The
> music is written this way to make it easier for the singer to read.
>
> I know of just two exceptions: one is in Pisador (1552), and the
> other is a late 17th-century English song with tablature for
> theorbo. In both these songs the singer has a transposing part where
> the key signature has two flats.
>
> There are hundreds of songs (probably thousands) where the voice
> part needs to transpose to match the pitch of the lute. The earliest
> examples I can think of for this practice are in Bossinensis (1509
> and 1511). Schlick followed soon after in 1512. Off the back of my
> head I think of Verdelot (1536), Phalese (1553), Edward Paston's Lbl
> Add 31992, the Turpyn Book of Lute Songs, Robert Dowland's _A
> Musicall Banquet (1610). There are many more, particularly in France
> with books of airs de cour in the first half of the 17th century.

When you say that "the voice part needs to transpose to match the pitch 
of the lute," you are telling me something I never thought was the 
case!  I always thought it was the other way around:  that the voice 
part was etched in stone, and the lutenist had to be able to supply a 
lute tuned at an appropriate pitch to match it.  Surely one could use 
either approach, if one has the appropriate lute to hand?

> Where transposition is the order of the day, there is a rubric, or
> tablature letter or number, to give the singer his first note.

But wouldn't that first note depend upon the tuning of the lute?

> This question has been discussed on the List before from time to
> time.

Stewart, how come I knew you were going to say that?  :-)  :-)  :-)  
Okay, so I wasn't listening the first time...although I do recall that 
thread.

Regards,

David

Re: Using hide glue.

[Gernot Hilger]

Herbert,
have a look at DvE's website
www.vanedwards.co.uk/glue.htm

This answers most of your questions.

Hide glue is a solution of collagen in water, so to say. You apply it with a
brush to the parts to be glued together and press both parts for a certain
amount of time, say 15 mins. The glue gells while cooling, the minimal amount
of water in the joints is absorbed by the wood. Very simple and elegant. The
excess glue is just washed away with warm water. No comparison to the mess
created by PVA glue. Your fingers will be sticky but again, hot water does the
trick.

Your method can be used for veneering. You would apply a generous amount of glue
, let it gell and reheat it with an ordinary household iron.

best wishes
g


Zitat von Herbert Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>
> I think lutes are assembled mainly with hide glue?  And it does not dry,
> but rather you have to heat it?
>
> So, my question is, this seems impractical.  If you spread the hot glue in
> a 0.5-1.0 mm layer, it would cool before you could get the second piece of
> wood positioned.  Indeed, I suspect just spreading it evenly would be
> difficult.
>
> If the second piece were thin like a soundboard, you could "iron" it on,
> but this wouldn't work for gluing braces or necks.  I guess you could do
> braces with a heat gun, but the Renaissance lute builders did not have
> them.
>
>
>

Using hide glue.

[Herbert Ward]

I think lutes are assembled mainly with hide glue?  And it does not dry, 
but rather you have to heat it?

So, my question is, this seems impractical.  If you spread the hot glue in
a 0.5-1.0 mm layer, it would cool before you could get the second piece of
wood positioned.  Indeed, I suspect just spreading it evenly would be
difficult.

If the second piece were thin like a soundboard, you could "iron" it on,
but this wouldn't work for gluing braces or necks.  I guess you could do
braces with a heat gun, but the Renaissance lute builders did not have
them.

Re: lute photography

[KennethBeLute]

Hi Martin:

I just wandered to my mailbox here for the first time in a while and found your 
message.  You've probably seen me in action alot with my little Pentax Optio330 (about 
2 yrs old now) with 3.34 megapixel capacity, using Flashcard media for storage (lots 
of my photos are on the LSA seminar webpages).  I also have a remote for it which I 
bought separately.  It is apparently very similar to the Canon powershot and digital 
Elph cameras.  Anyway, I use mine all the time without the flash - indoors, too, and 
for lots of lute photography.

A tripod can be helpful, but also somewhere between tripod and a steady hand, you can 
also consider using a monopod.

I'm about as attached to my digital camera as I am to my lutes!

Kenneth

Re: Do pegs get smooth and begin slipping?

[Roman Turovsky]

Jon, pretty much any saw dust is toxic (even pine). This is definitely
OSHA'a opinion.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org

> Poison needs to be absorbed or ingested (or injected, but avoid scorpians
> and venomous snakes). Either way it has to be loose enough, or floating
> enough, to get into your system. I'll lick that Laburnum peg, but I don't
> think I'll chew it up and swallow it (and my teeth aren't that strong
> anyway).

Airs de Cour

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David,

1) Different sizes of lute?

No. The lute stays the same; the voice transposes.

The key signature for the singer will be either one flat or no flat,
instead of a large block of flats for distant keys like F minor. The
music is written this way to make it easier for the singer to read.

I know of just two exceptions: one is in Pisador (1552), and the
other is a late 17th-century English song with tablature for
theorbo. In both these songs the singer has a transposing part where
the key signature has two flats.

There are hundreds of songs (probably thousands) where the voice
part needs to transpose to match the pitch of the lute. The earliest
examples I can think of for this practice are in Bossinensis (1509
and 1511). Schlick followed soon after in 1512. Off the back of my
head I think of Verdelot (1536), Phalese (1553), Edward Paston's Lbl
Add 31992, the Turpyn Book of Lute Songs, Robert Dowland's _A
Musicall Banquet (1610). There are many more, particularly in France
with books of airs de cour in the first half of the 17th century.
Where transposition is the order of the day, there is a rubric, or
tablature letter or number, to give the singer his first note.

This question has been discussed on the List before from time to
time. A quick flick through the archives produced "A-lute's use" and
"When did A become G?" on 2nd April 2002 and thereabouts. There may
well be more, but needles and haystacks come to mind.

-o-O-o-

2) Bass viol?

Printed sources of lute songs in England have accompaniments in
tablature with separate parts for one or more extra singers and/ or
bass viol, whereas in France the accompaniments are in tablature
only. The reason is not 100% clear. Perhaps

a) French lutes were bigger and louder than English ones, and so
didn't need the bass re-inforcing.

b) French songs were performed more freely. Freedom is harder to
achieve with two accompanying instruments.

c) French songs were always sung at treble pitch. If sung down an
octave by a tenor, it is helps to have the bass line re-inforced.

Those sort of factors may or may not be significant. All I would say
is that, having accompanied many English and French lute songs on
the lute, with and without a bass viol, I prefer English songs with
lute and viol, and French songs with just lute.

-o-O-o-

3) Modern recordings?

Catherine King & Jacob Heringman with Charles Daniels, _Airs de
Cour_, Linn Records CKD 089 is very nice.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.



- Original Message -
From: "David Rastall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 3:36 AM
Subject: Airs de Cour


> Dear luters,
>
> I'm looking at the SEDIM edition of Airs de Cours Pour Voix et
Luth,
> and I have some questions.  The lute parts don't always match the
> accompaniment parts in staff notation.  Is this because some of
the
> songs were written for lute in A, some for lute in F, and some for
lute
> in G etc., or is the singer supposed to adapt the pitch of the
song to
> the reqirements of a lute in G?  Along that same line, some of the
lute
> parts are preceded by a dotted double barline with a tablature
letter
> behind it;  what does that mean?
>
> Also, is it appropriate to simply take the bass lines of these
songs
> and make one's own continuo part from them?
>
> My other question is:  can any of you recommend some good
recordings of
> airs de cour?
>
> Regards,
>
> David Rastall