Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
my closing comment on this thread : i back discourse, atwood is a nice guy, he believes in his product. just mobile, mobile usage is a must. Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ Mauritius ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 20Sep2018 20:55, Mikhail V wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:21 AM Cameron Simpson wrote: On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal wrote: >Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any >other type of discussion forum regularly. As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside their ergonomic horrors (subjective), require a visit. So you are ok with 100 emails / day, like it happened when inline assignment discussion erupted? A drop in a bucket to me. Since I autofile my email, such messages all land in my python folder. Since my mail reader threads, 100 messages on a single topic are easy to follow, or easy to delete/archive/defer if that particular discussion is not of interest to me. And I was interested in the inline assignment discussion. So yes, totally ok. I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want. The point by point response, such as this one, is hard in a forum, generally. Qualification: in my deliberately limited experience. And few forums provide email mirroring/posting. Were I choosing the forum that would be an essential feature to me. I think most people want the ability to choose what topic they want to receive notification and its not possible. It is perfectly possible. I get hundreds of message by email every day, and arrange notifications only for a tiny subset of those. As for ergonomics - it depends on forum software and design. If I use some site frequently and it has bad layout/colors/fonts, then I use Stylish plugin to customize the CSS. Therefore I'd prefer forum with minimalistic CSS to easily customize the look. OTOH if the mailing software has bad ergonomics, I can't do much with that. You can switch clients. With email, there are many clients. Most forums provide only one: a single web interface. Or if people post a word and leave 5 pages quote below or messed up formatting - I can't do anything with that. On a good forum systems such things are less probable = less annoyance in general. I see 2 major problems: 1. The mentioned mass mail delivery 2. PEPs and discussion browsing is far from effective - I'd like a better way to browse PEPs - for example filtering by topics, eg. "syntax", "module X", by their status, etc, and of course discoverable relevant discussion. Systems used in Stackoverflow, Github already offer these features. I personally would like Stackoverflow-like format for presenting PEPs + discussion below, so everybody can easily browse PEPs and related info in one place. Clearly these work well for you. How well does that work offline? My laptop collects email continuously, and I visit the relevant folders on my own schedule. If that schedule is on a train with no internet, I'm fine. I can read. I can reply (the message will go out when I'm next online). A forum providing a _good_ email mirroring/posting service might make us both happy. Cheers, Cameron Simpson ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 9/20/18 2:04 PM, Chris Barker via Python-ideas wrote: > > Hmm -- I don't suppose Mailman has a way to filter out threads, does > it? If not, maybe we could add that -- might work well in cases like this. > > -CHB Mailman can filter based on regular expression on anything in the headers of the email. Filtering on Subject does a pretty good job of 'Thread' filtering You could also filter on In-Reply-To and References to get actual filtering on threads, but would need to list a lot of message-ids (especially for In-Reply-To) to block all replys to a long thread. -- Richard Damon ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Mikhail V wrote: I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want. I hope that, if any such change is made, a forum system is chosen that allows full participation via either email or news. Otherwise it will probably mean the end of my participation, because I don't have time to chase down and wrestle with multiple web forums every day. -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Asynchronous exception handling around with/try statement borders
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 3:52 PM Kyle Lahnakoski wrote: > KeyboardInterrupt (any interrupt really) is dangerous. Now, we can > probably code a solution, but how about we remove the danger > The other day I accidentally fork-bombed myself with Python os.fork in an infinite loop. Whoops. It seems to me that Python's design philosophy is to make the safe things beautiful and efficient, but not to remove the dangerous things. I'd be supportive of a proposal that makes threading safer without removing capabilities for those that want them. > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Asynchronous exception handling around with/try statement borders
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 8:52 AM Kyle Lahnakoski wrote: > Since the java.lang.Thread.stop() "debacle", it has been obvious that > stopping code to run other code has been dangerous. KeyboardInterrupt > (any interrupt really) is dangerous. Now, we can probably code a > solution, but how about we remove the danger: > > I suggest we remove interrupts from Python, and make them act more like > java.lang.Thread.interrupt(); setting a thread local bit to indicate an > interrupt has occurred. Then we can write explicit code to check for > that bit, and raise an exception in a safe place if we wish. This can > be done with Python code, or convenient places in Python's C source > itself. I imagine it would be easier to whitelist where interrupts can > raise exceptions, rather than blacklisting where they should not. The time machine strikes again! https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/exceptions.html#signal-handling ChrisA ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Asynchronous exception handling around with/try statement borders
On 2017-06-28 07:40, Erik Bray wrote: > Hi folks, Since the java.lang.Thread.stop() "debacle", it has been obvious that stopping code to run other code has been dangerous. KeyboardInterrupt (any interrupt really) is dangerous. Now, we can probably code a solution, but how about we remove the danger: I suggest we remove interrupts from Python, and make them act more like java.lang.Thread.interrupt(); setting a thread local bit to indicate an interrupt has occurred. Then we can write explicit code to check for that bit, and raise an exception in a safe place if we wish. This can be done with Python code, or convenient places in Python's C source itself. I imagine it would be easier to whitelist where interrupts can raise exceptions, rather than blacklisting where they should not. In the meantime, my solution is to spawn new threads to do the work, while the main thread has the sole purpose to sleep, and set the "please stop" flag upon interrupt. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Mark E. Haase wrote: Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion. Are there really all that many? They seem relatively rare to me. Certainly not enough to annoy me. -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Mark E. Haase wrote: I would also appreciate a +1 button. Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion. A tiny bit of discussion is still better than none at all. And even if there's no discussion, there's a name attached to the message, which makes it more personal and meaningful than a "+1" counter getting incremented somewhere. Counting only makes sense if the counts are going to be treated as votes, and we don't do that. -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Pre-conditions and post-conditions
Hi,
Again a brief update.
* icontract supports now static and class methods (thanks to my colleague
Adam Radomski) which came very handy when defining a group of functions as
an interface *via* an abstract (stateless) class. The implementors then
need to all satisfy the contracts without needing to re-write them. You
could implement the same behavior with *_impl or _* ("protected") methods
where public methods would add the contracts as asserts, but we find the
contracts-as-decorators more elegant (N functions instead of 2*N; see the
snippet below).
* We implemented a linter to statically check that the contract arguments
are defined correctly. It is available as a separate Pypi package
pyicontract-lint (https://github.com/Parquery/pyicontract-lint/). Next step
will be to use asteroid to infer that the return type of the condition
function is boolean. Does it make sense to include PEX in the release on
github?
* We plan to implement a sphinx plugin so that contracts can be readily
visible in the documentation. Is there any guideline or standard/preferred
approach how you would expect this plugin to be implemented? My colleagues
and I don't have any experience with sphinx plugins, so any guidance is
very welcome.
class Component(abc.ABC, icontract.DBC):
"""Initialize a single component."""
@staticmethod
@abc.abstractmethod
def user() -> str:
"""
Get the user name.
:return: user which executes this component.
"""
pass
@staticmethod
@abc.abstractmethod
@icontract.post(lambda result: result in groups())
def primary_group() -> str:
"""
Get the primary group.
:return: primary group of this component
"""
pass
@staticmethod
@abc.abstractmethod
@icontract.post(lambda result: result.issubset(groups()))
def secondary_groups() -> Set[str]:
"""
Get the secondary groups.
:return: list of secondary groups
"""
pass
@staticmethod
@abc.abstractmethod
@icontract.post(lambda result: all(not pth.is_absolute() for pth in result))
def bin_paths(config: mapried.config.Config) -> List[pathlib.Path]:
"""
Get list of binary paths used by this component.
:param config: of the instance
:return: list of paths to binaries used by this component
"""
pass
@staticmethod
@abc.abstractmethod
@icontract.post(lambda result: all(not pth.is_absolute() for pth in result))
def py_paths(config: mapried.config.Config) -> List[pathlib.Path]:
"""
Get list of py paths used by this component.
:param config: of the instance
:return: list of paths to python executables used by this component
"""
pass
@staticmethod
@abc.abstractmethod
@icontract.post(lambda result: all(not pth.is_absolute() for pth in result))
def dirs(config: mapried.config.Config) -> List[pathlib.Path]:
"""
Get directories used by this component.
:param config: of the instance
:return: list of paths to directories used by this component
"""
pass
On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 22:14, Marko Ristin-Kaufmann
wrote:
> Hi David Maertz and Michael Lee,
>
> Thank you for raising the points. Please let me respond to your comments
> in separation. Please let me know if I missed or misunderstood anything.
>
> *Assertions versus contracts.* David wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid that in reading the examples provided it is difficulties for
>> me not simply to think that EVERY SINGLE ONE of them would be FAR easier to
>> read if it were an `assert` instead.
>>
>
> I think there are two misunderstandings on the role of the contracts.
> First, they are part of the function signature, and not of the
> implementation. In contrast, the assertions are part of the implementation
> and are completely obscured in the signature. To see the contracts of a
> function or a class written as assertions, you need to visually inspect the
> implementation. The contracts are instead engraved in the signature and
> immediately visible. For example, you can test the distinction by pressing
> Ctrl + q in Pycharm.
>
> Second, assertions are only suitable for preconditions. Postconditions are
> practically unmaintainable as assertions as soon as you have multiple early
> returns in a function. The invariants implemented as assertions are always
> unmaintainable in practice (except for very, very small classes) -- you
> need to inspect each function of the class and all their return statements
> and manually add assertions for each invariant. Removing or changing
> invariants manually is totally impractical in my view.
>
> *Efficiency and Evidency. *David wrote:
>
>> The API of the library is a bit noisy, but I think the obstacle it's more
>> in the higher level design for me. Adding many layers of expensive runtime
>> checks and many lines of code in order to assure sim
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On 9/20/2018 3:38 AM, Hans Polak wrote: I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that the title of this thread is "Moving to another forum". If you want to contribute Python Ideas you *have to* subscribe to the mailing list. Or you can point your mail/news reader to news.gmane.org and 'subscribe' to gmane.comp.python.ideas, which keeps everything in this list in a separate folder and only downloads messages one wants to read. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
[Python-ideas] CoC violation (was: Retire or reword the "Beautiful is better than ugly" Zen clause)
The below email was reported to the PSF board for code of conduct violations and then passed on to the conduct working group to decide on an appropriate response. Based on the WG's recommendation and after discussing it with Titus, the decision has been made to ban Jacco from python-ideas. Trivializing assault, using the n-word, and making inappropriate comments about someone's mental stability are all uncalled for and entirely unnecessary to carry on a reasonable discourse of conversation that remains welcoming to others. On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 at 00:18 Jacco van Dorp wrote: > Op zo 16 sep. 2018 om 05:40 schreef Franklin? Lee < > leewangzhong+pyt...@gmail.com>: > >> I am very disappointed with the responses to this thread. We have >> mockery, dismissiveness, and even insinuations about OP's >> psychological health. Whether or not OP is a troll, and whether or not >> OP's idea has merit, that kind of response is unnecessary and >> unhelpful. > > > Sure, I'll take your bait. > > >> Jacco: >> - This is completely disrespectful and way over the line. Don't try to >> make a psychological evaluation from two emails, especially when it's >> just someone having an idea you don't like. >> """However, if merely the word ugly being on a page can be >> "harmful", what you really need is professional help, not a change to >> Python. Because there's obviously been some things in your past you >> need to work through.""" >> > > Is it, though ? Even more because in order for it to apply to any one > person's aesthetics, you need to pull it out of context first. You need to > be looking for it. Being triggered by a word this simple is not exactly a > sign of mental stability. I know a girl who's been raped more than she can > count - but the word doesn't trigger her like this(only makes her want to > beat up rapists). If people can do that, then surely a playground insult > wont reduce you to tears, right ? > > >> - Mockery. >> """If we have to ban "Ugly" for american sensitivities, then >> perhaps we need to ban a number of others for china's sensitivities. >> Where will it end ?""" >> > > Well, on the internet, the word "nigger" is already basically banned for > american sensibilities, while the version in dutch, my language, is > "neger", which doesn't really have any racist connotation, probably because > the amount of slaves that have ever been in what's currently the > netherlands, has been negligible. However, it's use is effectively banned > because some other culture considers it offensive to use. Why should your > culture be my censorship ? And it's no coincidence I used china there - > it's notorious for it's censorship. If merely labeling a word as > "offensive" is sufficient to ban it, I daresay they'd mark a whole lot more > words as offensive. And why would their opinion be any less valid than > yours ? > > Don't think you're special - you're not. If you want to give yourself the > power to ban words for offensive, you're giving that same power to > everyone. And since offensive is subjective, it means anybody could ban any > word, since you couldn't tell the difference between real or fake offense. > > Therefore, it is a disastrous idea and I'll predict the end of Python if > we go down that route. > > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
A point here: any proposal that is an actual proposal, rather than a idea that needs fleshing out, can benefit from being written down in a single document. It does NOT have to be an official PEP in order for that to happen. If you are advocating something, then write it down, post it gitHbu or some such, and point people to it -- that's it. Using this list alone (or any forum-like system) is not a good way to work out the details of the proposal -- if you have a written out version, then folks can debate what's actually in the proposal, and not the various already discussed and rejected idea that float around in multiple discussion threads... -CHB On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Michael Selik wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:25 AM Anders Hovmöller > wrote: > > >>> Not for drafting, but for submitting. > > >> > > >> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. > > > > > > I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the > > > troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the > > > proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP ..." > > > > > > Could you clarify what you think is inaccurate in the previous > statements? > > > > It later states this is just to avoid submitting bad ideas. It’s not > actually a requirement but a (supposed) kindness. > > Some regulations are de jure, others are de facto. > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:24 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull < turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote: > > And that's exactly what a mute on replies does. Most people will just > give up, which is appropriate. People who have (what they think is) a > good reason to continue can start a new thread with a link to the old > one. Hardly a prohibitive barrier, if you're willing to risk banning. > > I think this "feature" will do what people generally think it does: > provide a strong signal to stop the discussion, and back that up with > a fail-safe (if you *do* hit reply, it won't work). > Hmm -- I don't suppose Mailman has a way to filter out threads, does it? If not, maybe we could add that -- might work well in cases like this. -CHB -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:21 AM Cameron Simpson wrote: > > On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal wrote: > >Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any > >other type of discussion forum regularly. > > As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside their ergonomic horrors > (subjective), require a visit. So you are ok with 100 emails / day, like it happened when inline assignment discussion erupted? I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want. I think most people want the ability to choose what topic they want to receive notification and its not possible. As for ergonomics - it depends on forum software and design. If I use some site frequently and it has bad layout/colors/fonts, then I use Stylish plugin to customize the CSS. Therefore I'd prefer forum with minimalistic CSS to easily customize the look. OTOH if the mailing software has bad ergonomics, I can't do much with that. Or if people post a word and leave 5 pages quote below or messed up formatting - I can't do anything with that. On a good forum systems such things are less probable = less annoyance in general. I see 2 major problems: 1. The mentioned mass mail delivery 2. PEPs and discussion browsing is far from effective - I'd like a better way to browse PEPs - for example filtering by topics, eg. "syntax", "module X", by their status, etc, and of course discoverable relevant discussion. Systems used in Stackoverflow, Github already offer these features. I personally would like Stackoverflow-like format for presenting PEPs + discussion below, so everybody can easily browse PEPs and related info in one place. Mikhail ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:25 AM Anders Hovmöller wrote: > >>> Not for drafting, but for submitting. > >> > >> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. > > > > I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the > > troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the > > proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP ..." > > > > Could you clarify what you think is inaccurate in the previous statements? > > It later states this is just to avoid submitting bad ideas. It’s not actually > a requirement but a (supposed) kindness. Some regulations are de jure, others are de facto. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
>>> Not for drafting, but for submitting. >> >> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. > > I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the > troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the > proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP ..." > > Could you clarify what you think is inaccurate in the previous statements? It later states this is just to avoid submitting bad ideas. It’s not actually a requirement but a (supposed) kindness. / Anders ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 09:58:03 -0700 Brett Cannon wrote: > > Ethan's correct, it isn't enough. The past two weeks have been pretty > horrible for me as an admin and Titus and I need to find a solution to keep > this place sustainable long-term, otherwise I'm liable to burn out from > running this list (and before anyone says it, more admins will not help as > we have already tried that in the past). I think more admins would definitely help *if* they had the help of a modern discussion system with built-in moderation options. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
also Mr Brett, i have no way of knowing moderators, though i don't trample here and there, mods words are sacred and apart from mods saying i'm a mod, i can't really tell. maybe a footer saying mod or something like that Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 12:20 Ethan Furman wrote: > On 09/18/2018 12:05 PM, Franklin? Lee wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble wrote: > > >> Perhaps not, but part of that might be because stopping an active > >> discussion on a mailing list can be hard to do, so one might not even > >> try. Some discussions, I suspect, may have gone on in circles long past > >> the point where they would have been locked on a forum. With forum > >> software, it becomes much easier, and would be a more effective tool to > >> terminate discussions that are going nowhere fast and wasting > everyone's > >> time. > > True. > > > But there's no evidence that such tools would help. Software > > enforcement powers are only necessary if verbal enforcement isn't > > enough. We need the current moderators (or just Brett) to say whether > > they feel it isn't enough. > > It isn't enough. > Ethan's correct, it isn't enough. The past two weeks have been pretty horrible for me as an admin and Titus and I need to find a solution to keep this place sustainable long-term, otherwise I'm liable to burn out from running this list (and before anyone says it, more admins will not help as we have already tried that in the past). > > > What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team, > > or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective > > enforcement. > > More ineffective enforcement will be, um, ineffective. > > Let's have a test. I'm a moderator (from -List). We're* working on > avenues to improve the mailing tools and > simultaneously testing other options. I'm not seeing anything new in this > thread that will impact that one way or > another, so I'm asking for all of us to move on to other topics. > What Ethan said. :) I'm now muting this thread as it has already become a subjective debate of the value of email versus not which doesn't help me as no one has come forward with anything I didn't already know, and this is all before we have even had a chance to start an evaluation of alternatives (IOW there's nothing for anyone on either side of this debate to actually debate about when it comes to this mailing list yet :) . ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 9:27 AM Anders Hovmöller wrote: > >> That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement > >> for writing a PEP. > > > > Not for drafting, but for submitting. > > Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP ..." Could you clarify what you think is inaccurate in the previous statements? ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
it was just i like chris message v/s i like a like button Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ Mauritius On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 18:24 Oleg Broytman, wrote: >That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was > just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much > better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! > >We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. > Write your arguments or be silent. > > Oleg. > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
> The firehose of python-ideas is a barrier to entry to suggesting major > changes to the language. This is a GOOD thing. Major changes need dedicated > advocates - if they are unwilling to endure the flood of mail, they are not > dedicated enough to the change, and that is an indication of how much they > will contribute to actually bring that fruition. They need a thick skin, > since the idea will be folded, spindled and mutilated, usually reducing the > change proposed to a single actionable item. This is what makes python a > good language - the road to changing it is incredibly tough. We should not > want to make it easier. > > The firehose is a virtue for this list. You’re conflating two things here: 1. Volume of mails (which is irrelevant for people who have a more advanced mail workflow anyway as has been pointed out as an argument against the very idea that is a firehouse at all) 2. People being... let’s be nice and say.. brutally honest and change averse. Point 2 has no connection to the technology afaik. And point 1 is weak at best. / Anders ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
>> That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement >> for writing a PEP. > > Not for drafting, but for submitting. Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. In general pep1 is frustratingly vague. Terms like “community consensus” without defining community or what numbers would constitute a consensus are not fun to read as someone who doesn’t personally know anyone of the core devs. Further references to Guido are even more frustrating now that he’s bowed out. / Anders ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Chris Barker via Python-ideas writes: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:39 PM, James Lu wrote: > > In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be > > locked. No more posts can be added. > Exactly -- but that means we are stopping the discussion -- but we don't > want to stop the discussion altogether, And that's exactly what a mute on replies does. Most people will just give up, which is appropriate. People who have (what they think is) a good reason to continue can start a new thread with a link to the old one. Hardly a prohibitive barrier, if you're willing to risk banning. I think this "feature" will do what people generally think it does: provide a strong signal to stop the discussion, and back that up with a fail-safe (if you *do* hit reply, it won't work). Footnotes: [1] Something rather unlikely to happen for many many months, even if the core decides to support it. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
> -Original Message- > From: Hans Polak > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 3:38 AM > To: Alex Walters ; python-ideas@python.org > Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where > > > I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that it’s a *mailing list*. > A > firehose of email is generally a sign of good health of a mailing list. Even > so, > there are mitigations to the firehose effect, including, but not limited to > digests and setting up your client to move mailing list posts directly to a > folder > (including the trash for threads you don’t want to follow). I don't > understand > how one can sign up for a mass email discussion forum, and be surprised that > it increased the amount of email they receive. It's kind of the point of the > medium. > > > Right you are, Alex. > > I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that the title of this thread is > "Moving to another forum". If you want to contribute Python Ideas you have > to subscribe to the mailing list. > I have zero sympathy for this position. First, you only need to join the list to propose major changes - everything other type of contribution can be done off list. Fixing bugs never touches a list at all unless you need to discuss backwards incompatible changes, at which point it goes to the lower volume python-dev list. Documentation changes are done on the tracker, and trivial changes are done in pull requests. The firehose of python-ideas is a barrier to entry to suggesting major changes to the language. This is a GOOD thing. Major changes need dedicated advocates - if they are unwilling to endure the flood of mail, they are not dedicated enough to the change, and that is an indication of how much they will contribute to actually bring that fruition. They need a thick skin, since the idea will be folded, spindled and mutilated, usually reducing the change proposed to a single actionable item. This is what makes python a good language - the road to changing it is incredibly tough. We should not want to make it easier. The firehose is a virtue for this list. > Let me just say that I second the idea of moving to another forum. > > I already move most mail automatically to the trash folder and read it there > before eliminating it. My inbox contains exactly four emails at the moment, > FYI. > > Cheers, > Hans ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
+1 to everything James said. This otherwise pointless mail is further evidence he’s right. On 20 Sep 2018, at 17:08, James Lu wrote: >> It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with >> "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting". > > Up/ down voting indicates how much consensus we have among the entire > community- an expert might agree with another expert’s arguments but not have > anything else to add, and an outsider might agree with the scenario an expert > presents without having much more to add. Granular up/down votes are useful. > >> Believe it or not, I like the fact that you can't just edit posts. I've >> lost count of the number of forum threads I've been on where comments to >> the initial post make *no sense* because that initial post is nothing >> like it was to start with. > > There is version history. Not all of us have the time to read through every > single post beforehand to get the current state of discussion. > > Hmm, what if we used GitHub as a discussion forum? You’d make a pull request > with an informal proposal to a repository. Then people can comment on lines > in the diff and reply to each other there. The OP can update their branch to > change their proposal- expired/stale comments on old diffs are automatically > hidden. > > You can also create a competing proposal by forming from the OP’s branch and > sending a new PR. > >> Just editing your post and expecting people to notice >> is not going to cut it. > > You would ping someone after editing the post. > >> Approximately none of this has anything to do with the medium. If the >> mailing list is obscure (and personally I don't think it is), it just >> needs better advertising. A poorly advertised forum is equally >> undiscoverable. > > It does have to do with the medium. First, people aren’t used to mailing > lists- but that’s not what’s important here. If the PSF advertised for people > to sign up over say twitter, then we’d get even more email. More +1 and more > -1. Most of us don’t want more mailing list volume. > > The fact that you can’t easily find an overview people will post arguments > that have already been made if they don’t have the extreme patience to read > all that has been said before. > > For the rest of your comments, I advise you to read the earlier discussion > that other people had in response to my email. > >> That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was >> just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much >> better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! >> >> We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. >> Write your arguments or be silent. > > Please respond to the actual arguments in both of the two emails that have > arguments in support of +1/-1. > > +1/-1 reflects which usage scenarios people find valuable, since Python > features sometimes do benefit one group at the detriment to another. Or use > syntax/behavior for one thing that could be used for another thing, and some > programming styles of python use cases would prefer one kind of that > syntax/behavior. > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:13 AM Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Michael Selik writes: > > > However, PEP 1 does not give instruction on how to evaluate whether > > that discussion has been completed satisfactorily. > > That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement > for writing a PEP. Not for drafting, but for submitting. For my own PEP submission, I received the specific feedback that it needed a "proper title" before being assigned a PEP number. My goal for submitting the draft was to receive a PEP number to avoid the awkwardness of discussing a PEP without an obvious title. Perhaps PEP 1 should be revised to clarify the expectations for PEP submission. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 09/20/2018 07:48 AM, James Lu wrote: Were there any productive parts to that conversation? Out of 85 messages, there was 1 for sure, possibly three more. In the 95 "Retire or reword the namesake of the Language" thread there were 2. Obviously my opinion, but I hope everyone would agree that the signal-to-noise ratio of those two threads was low. -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:33 AM Ethan Furman wrote: > On 09/20/2018 07:23 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote: > > We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. > > Write your arguments or be silent. > > The number of people who have the same argument is also a factor. I would > rather have the argument once with 15 +1s > than 16 posts all saying the same thing. A "like" on an argument means "I > agree" -- which is valuable information to have. +1 ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
> It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with > "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting". Up/ down voting indicates how much consensus we have among the entire community- an expert might agree with another expert’s arguments but not have anything else to add, and an outsider might agree with the scenario an expert presents without having much more to add. Granular up/down votes are useful. > Believe it or not, I like the fact that you can't just edit posts. I've > lost count of the number of forum threads I've been on where comments to > the initial post make *no sense* because that initial post is nothing > like it was to start with. There is version history. Not all of us have the time to read through every single post beforehand to get the current state of discussion. Hmm, what if we used GitHub as a discussion forum? You’d make a pull request with an informal proposal to a repository. Then people can comment on lines in the diff and reply to each other there. The OP can update their branch to change their proposal- expired/stale comments on old diffs are automatically hidden. You can also create a competing proposal by forming from the OP’s branch and sending a new PR. > Just editing your post and expecting people to notice > is not going to cut it. You would ping someone after editing the post. > Approximately none of this has anything to do with the medium. If the > mailing list is obscure (and personally I don't think it is), it just > needs better advertising. A poorly advertised forum is equally > undiscoverable. It does have to do with the medium. First, people aren’t used to mailing lists- but that’s not what’s important here. If the PSF advertised for people to sign up over say twitter, then we’d get even more email. More +1 and more -1. Most of us don’t want more mailing list volume. The fact that you can’t easily find an overview people will post arguments that have already been made if they don’t have the extreme patience to read all that has been said before. For the rest of your comments, I advise you to read the earlier discussion that other people had in response to my email. > That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was > just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much > better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! > > We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. > Write your arguments or be silent. Please respond to the actual arguments in both of the two emails that have arguments in support of +1/-1. +1/-1 reflects which usage scenarios people find valuable, since Python features sometimes do benefit one group at the detriment to another. Or use syntax/behavior for one thing that could be used for another thing, and some programming styles of python use cases would prefer one kind of that syntax/behavior. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Were there any productive parts to that conversation? Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 20, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:39 PM, James Lu wrote: >> In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be locked. No more >> posts can be added. > > Exactly -- but that means we are stopping the discussion -- but we don't want > to stop the discussion altogether, we want to have the productive parts of > the discussion, without the non-productive parts -- not sure there is any > technical solution to that problem. > > - CHB > > -- > > Christopher Barker, Ph.D. > Oceanographer > > Emergency Response Division > NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice > 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax > Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception > > chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 09/20/2018 07:23 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:05:33AM -0400, Mark E. Haase wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: i miss a +1 button It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting" It's difficult to keep track of all these disparate, unstructured votes There is no need to track them. GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons GitHub is a social network so it's natural for them to add "likes". (If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this response.) That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. Write your arguments or be silent. The number of people who have the same argument is also a factor. I would rather have the argument once with 15 +1s than 16 posts all saying the same thing. A "like" on an argument means "I agree" -- which is valuable information to have. -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:05:33AM -0400, "Mark E. Haase" wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer < > > arj.pyt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > i miss a +1 button > > > >It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with > > "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting" > > It's difficult to > keep track of all these disparate, unstructured votes There is no need to track them. > GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons GitHub is a social network so it's natural for them to add "likes". > (If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this > response.) That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. Write your arguments or be silent. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmanhttps://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:39 PM, James Lu wrote: > In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be locked. No > more posts can be added. > Exactly -- but that means we are stopping the discussion -- but we don't want to stop the discussion altogether, we want to have the productive parts of the discussion, without the non-productive parts -- not sure there is any technical solution to that problem. - CHB -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer < > arj.pyt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > i miss a +1 button > >It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with > "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting" I would also appreciate a +1 button. Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion. It's difficult to keep track of all these disparate, unstructured votes in threads that contain a hundred e-mails and spin off into subthreads. There are also a lot of lurkers who don't want to gum up inboxes with +1's and -1's, so responses are naturally biased towards the more opinionated and active users of the list. GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons for exactly this reason: to reduce needless comment on Issues and Pull Requests. (If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this response.) ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On 18/09/18 23:37, James Lu wrote: Other than that, my biggest issues with the current mailing system are: * There’s no way to keep a updated proposal of your own- if you decide to change your proposal, you have to communicate the change. Then, if you want to find the authoritative current copy, since you might’ve forgotten or you want to join he current discussion, then you have to dig through the emails and recursively apply the proposed change. It’s just easier if people can have one proposal they can edit themselves. Believe it or not, I like the fact that you can't just edit posts. I've lost count of the number of forum threads I've been on where comments to the initial post make *no sense* because that initial post is nothing like it was to start with. (Also it makes it easier to quote people back at themselves :-) * I’ve seen experienced people get confused about what was the current proposal because they were replying to older emails or they didn’t see the email with the clear examples. As you said yourself, "you have to communicate the change." Even in a forum or similar. Just editing your post and expecting people to notice is not going to cut it. And yes, there is a danger that even experienced people will get confused about what is being proposed right now, but I've seen that happen on forums too. The lack of threading tends to help with that, but on the other hand it stifles breadth of debate. * The mailing list is frankly obscure. Python community leaders and package maintainers often are not aware or do not participate in Python-ideas. Not many people know how to use or navigate a mailing list. * No one really promotes the mailing list, you have to go out of your way to find where new features are proposed. * Higher discoverability means more people can participate, providing their own use cases or voting (I mean using like or dislike measures, consensus should still be how things are approved) go out of their way to find so they can propose something. Instead, I envision a forum where people can read and give their 2 cents about what features they might like to see or might not want to see. -1. (I'm British, I'm allowed to be ironic.) Approximately none of this has anything to do with the medium. If the mailing list is obscure (and personally I don't think it is), it just needs better advertising. A poorly advertised forum is equally undiscoverable. * More people means instead of having to make decisions from sometimes subjective personal experience, we can make decisions with confidence in what other Python devs want. Um. Have you read this list? Mostly we can make decisions with confidence that people disagree vigorously about what they as Python devs want. Besides, I've never met a mailing list, forum or any group of more than about twelve people that could make decisions in a timely manner (or at all in some cases), and I've been a member of a few that were supposed to. Eventually some*one* has to decide to do or allow something, traditionally the BDFL. Since potential proposers will find it easier to navigate a GUI forum, they can read previous discussions to understand the reasoning, precedent behind rejected and successful features. People proposing things that have already been rejected before can be directed to open a subtopic on the older discussion. Your faith in graphical interfaces is touching, but I've seen some stinkers. It is no easier to go through the average forum's thousands of prior discussions looking for the topic you are interested in than it is to go through the mailing list archive (and frankly googling is your best bet for both). People don't always do it here, but they don't always do it on any of the forums I'm on either, and resurrecting a moribund thread is no different to resurrecting a moribund topic. -- Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
it's another phrasing of +1 or i like his reply not meaning i'd like +1 buttons in mail Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 16:09 Oleg wrote: > >It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with > "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting". > > > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > i miss a +1 button It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting". > -- > Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > https://github.com/abdur-rahmaanj > Mauritius Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmanhttps://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
> Frankly, I think the bigger issue is all too human -- we get sucked in and > participate when we really know we shouldn't (or maybe that's just me). > That may be why some people misbehave, but we have no way of discouraging that misbehavior. > And I'm having a hard time figuring out how moderation would actually > result in the "good" discussion we really want in an example like the > "beautiful is better than ugly" issue, without someone trusted individual > approving every single post -- I don't imagine anyone wants to do that. In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be locked. No more posts can be added. If someone wants to discuss another proposal branching off of the original discussion, they can start a new thread. If they just want to lampoon, we can courteously ask them to 1) take it elsewhere or 2) move the post to a “malarkey” section of the forum where people don’t get notified. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Python-ideas Digest, Vol 142, Issue 110
> Frankly, I think the bigger issue is all too human -- we get sucked in and > participate when we really know we shouldn't (or maybe that's just me). > That may be why some people misbehave, but we have no way of discouraging that misbehavior. > And I'm having a hard time figuring out how moderation would actually > result in the "good" discussion we really want in an example like the > "beautiful is better than ugly" issue, without someone trusted individual > approving every single post -- I don't imagine anyone wants to do that. In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be locked. No more posts can be added. If someone wants to discuss another proposal branching off of the original discussion, they can start a new thread. If they just want to lampoon, we can courteously ask them to 1) take it elsewhere or 2) move the post to a “malarkey” section of the forum where people don’t get notified. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
i miss a +1 button On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:17 PM Chris Barker via Python-ideas < python-ideas@python.org> wrote: > > Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in > any other type of discussion forum regularly. > > ... > -- > > Christopher Barker, Ph.D. > Oceanographer > -- Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/abdur-rahmaanj Mauritius ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
Michael Selik writes: > However, PEP 1 does not give instruction on how to evaluate whether > that discussion has been completed satisfactorily. That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement for writing a PEP. Writing a PEP is a lot more effort than writing an email. The purposes of initiating discussions are 1. Avoid duplication. Nobody has encyclopedic knowledge of the hundreds of PEPs anymore, but the lists do. 2. Gauge feasibility of the proposal. Some are non-starters for reasons of "Pythonicity", others are extremely difficult to implement given Python internals or constraints like LL(1) syntax in the parser. 3. Gauge interest in the content of the proposal. If the protagonists think it's worth it after that, they write a PEP. Typically the discussion continues on list during the drafting. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Le 20/09/2018 à 10:20, Cameron Simpson a écrit : > On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal > wrote: >> Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate >> in any >> other type of discussion forum regularly. > > As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside their ergonomic > horrors (subjective), require a visit. Good forums have RSS for that purpose. Besides, it's unlikely that one has to be kept up to date on a daily basis on what's going on on Python-idea with such accuracy that one needs instant notifications that a new entry is available. > > Cheers, > Cameron Simpson > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal wrote: Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any other type of discussion forum regularly. As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside their ergonomic horrors (subjective), require a visit. Cheers, Cameron Simpson ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:05 PM, Franklin? Lee < leewangzhong+pyt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team, > or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective > enforcement. > Or maybe clamoring for nothing -- it's just not that hard to ignore a thread Frankly, I think the bigger issue is all too human -- we get sucked in and participate when we really know we shouldn't (or maybe that's just me). And I'm having a hard time figuring out how moderation would actually result in the "good" discussion we really want in an example like the "beautiful is better than ugly" issue, without someone trusted individual approving every single post -- I don't imagine anyone wants to do that. Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any other type of discussion forum regularly. -CHB > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR&R(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that it’s a *mailing list*. A firehose of email is generally a sign of good health of a mailing list. Even so, there are mitigations to the firehose effect, including, but not limited to digests and setting up your client to move mailing list posts directly to a folder (including the trash for threads you don’t want to follow). I don't understand how one can sign up for a mass email discussion forum, and be surprised that it increased the amount of email they receive. It's kind of the point of the medium. Right you are, Alex. I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that the title of this thread is "Moving to another forum". If you want to contribute Python Ideas you *have to* subscribe to the mailing list. Let me just say that I second the idea of moving to another forum. I already move most mail automatically to the trash folder and read it there before eliminating it. My inbox contains exactly four emails at the moment, FYI. Cheers, Hans ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
