[Texascavers] a caver party invitation / update

[David]

As of 01-26-10, my plan to host a cook-out in east Texas is still on.

  http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=306448097728&ref=ts

For those of you who can't view that, the date is May 22, and the location
is Burton, Texas, about 1 1/4 hour east of Bastrop.

Try this link for a map showing location in relation to landmarks:

 http://www.mapquest.com/mq/1-wq6T

David Locklear
281-960-0687

P.S.   May 22, is the Saturday on the weekend before
Memorial Day Weekend.

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[Texascavers] San Antonio slumps

[Gill Edigar]

It is often said and there is a widespread misconception that the "Balcones
Fault" is "inactive", meaning that it no longer moves. First, the idea that
it is only one fault is inaccurate; it is more correctly a "fault zone" made
up of probably millions of smaller, local faults, some mere meters long,
others well up on the order of dozens of kilometers. And they move; the
seismograph says so. Consider that there are many pre-existing joints and
faults and that would otherwise appear to be 'inactive'. These joints are
filled with mud which dissolves the surfaces of these rocks. As the rocks
are dissolved their center of gravity and their contacts with adjoining
rocks changes or goes away, or rains wash away or introduce clay or other
material. Rains and drouths will alter the mud and moisture content.
Seasonal heating and cooling of the near-surface rocks will affect their
stability. The rock's immediate environment changes over time and it must
adjust itself accordingly. It moves. And that movement, if large enough,
will register on a seismograph; it's a mini-earthquake. There are thousands
of them every day along the length of the (seemingly inactive) Balcones
Fault Zone.

It is entirely possible, and even likely, that the slumping going on in San
Antonio is a mass of rock spalling along a joint or fault after a lower
side-supporting member has been removed through natural processes or
quarrying and the recent rains have washed out and/or lubricated any clay
binders in the joint.
--Ediger


on Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:38 PM, SS  wrote:

> The neighborhood was probably built on a landfill...lol.
>
> That's what happens when you cut corners...I hope Centex gets sued into
> bankruptcy.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
> Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:48 PM
> To: tbsam...@verizon.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
> Cc: jrsam...@aol.com
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..
>
> Folks,
>
> This is not a sinkhole but a classic hill slope failure.  Quite impressive
> as slips go.
>
> Geary
>
> -Original Message-
> From: tbsam...@verizon.net [mailto:tbsam...@verizon.net]
> Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:32 PM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Cc: jrsam...@aol.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..
>
>
> "Our backyard has shifted about 10 feet, and everything is pushed closer to
> our house," said Sara Koenig, 23.
>
> She and her husband, 27, left early Sunday to study and to volunteer at a
> local hospital, respectively. She said neighbors called her at 11 a.m. to
> report their back fence had collapsed but her two Chihuahuas were safe.
>
>
>
> Near helotes.
>
> http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/82553087.html
>
>
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>
>
>
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>
>

Re: [Texascavers] Climate change

[Gill Edigar]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:16 PM, SS  wrote:
>At the end of the day we are having no more effect on the earth than
anything else.

That statement, I feel, is important enough to reply to. Some of the others
are interesting but can wait till I have more time.

Yes, we are all a part of nature--even our man-made objects. But we, as
human beings building dams, diverting rivers, cutting down rain forests,
strip mining the surface, polluting ground water, and, subsequently wiping
out many species of plants and animals (yes, something which also happens
without our help) can not be considered as "having no more effect on the
earth than anything else." Our Earth and it's atmosphere are parts of a
(mostly & practically) closed system. Space dust and junk do regularly find
their way in, sometimes catastrophically, but that is outside the scope of
us being responsible for our own actions--for us being accountable, because
we, as human beings, can and do have a significant influence on the chemical
composition of the air and water and the soil itself, through our
machinations. If you want to pretend that that is not true I would suggest
that you find another closed environment--say your living room--and run a
hose from your idling car exhaust into the living room and then try to tell
me that pumping waste gases into a closed environment won't have any more
effect on it than whatever else goes on in there during a normal day. You
just can't pump large volumes of carbon dioxide--or anything else--into the
atmosphere and not have it change the chemistry of it. That should be
totally axiomatic. Now, what effects that change in chemistry may invoke
within the closed environment is open to debate, I'll admit.

RE: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..

[SS]

The neighborhood was probably built on a landfill...lol.  

That's what happens when you cut corners...I hope Centex gets sued into
bankruptcy.


-Original Message-
From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org] 
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:48 PM
To: tbsam...@verizon.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: jrsam...@aol.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..

Folks,

This is not a sinkhole but a classic hill slope failure.  Quite impressive
as slips go.

Geary

-Original Message-
From: tbsam...@verizon.net [mailto:tbsam...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:32 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: jrsam...@aol.com
Subject: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..


"Our backyard has shifted about 10 feet, and everything is pushed closer to
our house," said Sara Koenig, 23.

She and her husband, 27, left early Sunday to study and to volunteer at a
local hospital, respectively. She said neighbors called her at 11 a.m. to
report their back fence had collapsed but her two Chihuahuas were safe.



Near helotes.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/82553087.html


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RE: [Texascavers] CBC Emergency Petitions Filed to Close Caves and Save Bats From Extinction

[SS]

Maybe they should petition the government for a caving Tax while their at
it.  We can add it to the list...

 

 Accounts Receivable Tax
 Building Permit Tax
 CDL license Tax
 Cigarette Tax
 Corporate Income Tax
 Dog License Tax
 Excise Taxes
 Federal Income Tax
 Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
 Fishing License Tax
 Food License Tax
 Fuel Permit Tax
 Gasoline Tax (currently 44.75 cents per gallon)
 Gross Receipts Tax
 Hunting License Tax
 Inheritance Tax
 Inventory Tax
 IRS Interest Charges IRS  Penalties (tax on top of tax)
 Liquor Tax
 Luxury Taxes
 Marriage License Tax
 Medicare Tax
 Personal Property Tax
 Property Tax
 Real Estate Tax
 Service Charge T ax
 Social Security Tax
 Road Usage Tax
 Sales Tax
 Recreational Vehicle Tax
 School Tax
 State Income Tax
 State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
 Telephone Federal Excise Tax
 Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Tax
 Telephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge Taxes
 Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge=2 0Tax
 Telephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges Tax
  Telephone State and Local Tax
 Telephone Usage Charge Tax
 Utility Taxes
 Vehicle License Registration Tax
 Vehicle Sales Tax
 Watercraft Registration Tax
 Well Permit Tax
 Workers Compensation Tax

 

  _  

From: Pete Lindsley [mailto:caverp...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:26 PM
To: New Mexico Caver Mailing List; Texas Cavers List
Subject: [Texascavers] CBC Emergency Petitions Filed to Close Caves and Save
Bats From Extinction

 

>From Scott House on the MoCaves List: 

The Center for Biological Diversity (not a government agency!) has
petitioned the federal government to close all caves under its jurisdiction.

Do not misinterpret this for a proposed action by the federal government.





Petitions Filed to Close Caves:

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2010/bats-01-21-2010.
html

 

 
 ... asks federal agencies to close all caves under their
jurisdiction...

... close all bat-inhabited caves and mines on federal lands throughout the
continental United States...

...and for the eastern small-footed bat and the northern long-eared bat...
to be protected as endangered species ...





"All Caves" is a lot more caves than the affected caves in the 9 states
mentioned...



 

RE: [ot_caving] 8 tracks

[Jenny Holt]

I also loved the Bread 8 track, but Mandy and I mostly loved our quadraphonic 8 
track of the Doobie Bros, "What was Once Vices are Now Habits". We also enjoyed 
it in our Dad's hand me down '74 Luxury Nova!  Good Times (not the van). Our 
previous hand me down, "The Red Rocket", a '67 Galaxie 500 had headphone jacks 
for both the front and back seats, where we rocked  out to Led Zeppelin 2, 
Grand Funk Railroad, ZZ-Top, Edgar Winter, JC Superstar, Bad Company and the 
Eagles!.  I know...the diversity-ha!  
Geezer's youngest (old) daughter,
Jenny
From: fh...@townandcountryins.com
To: o...@texascavers.com
CC: geekazoidman...@hotmail.com; jhol...@hotmail.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 12:48:44 -0600
Subject: [ot_caving] 8 tracks


























I may have the last word on this but I am jumping to OT as
it would be a stretch (until broken) to call this caving related.

 

The coolest songs and sounds for me was “The Best of
Bread” on the Quadraphonic player in my 74 Chevy Nova. The different
sounds from four corners was awesome. Wish I had it back and that they still
recorded in this mode.

 

Geezer

 

Fritz
 Holt

Town & Country Insurance Agency

10575 Katy Freeway, Suite 150

Houston,
 Texas 77024

713-461-8979

713-464-2674 Fax

 

Thank you for doing business with
Town & Country Insurance.

 

**
June through November our agency may become prohibited from binding coverage
should a “Tropical Disturbance” enter the Gulf of Mexico or Caribbean Sea.  In 
these cases we will be unable to
bind coverage previously quoted until the storm leaves our area and our writing
authority has been restored.**  Coverage cannot be bound or altered
using voice mail or e-mail without verification by a licensed representative.

 

  
_
Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390706/direct/01/

RE: [Texascavers] Climate change

[SS]

Its like fleas arguing over who owns the dogs back.

 

At the end of the day we are having no more effect on the earth than
anything else.  All the pollution in the world doesn't add up to anything
like some of the catastrophic events the earth has suffered since it was
born.  Before you and I walked the earth it was struck by asteroids and
undergone volcanic activity that nearly extinguished life a hundred times
over.  

 

If you want to be an environmentalist do so for mans sake.  the earth could
care less.  It can wipe us out in the blink of an eye, and ten thousand
years later you'd hardly find a trace we were ever here. 

 

 

 

  _  

From: bmorgan...@aol.com [mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com] 
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 11:46 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Climate change

 

I am so very sick and tired of the climate change debate and of the
perversion of science that is used by both sides to justify their underlying
political agenda. No one has ever suggested that the earth's climate is
static. 

 

There is no question but that much of current climate change is
anthropogenic and driven by fossil fuel consumption. The problem is the RATE
OF CHANGE over and above the background natural rate of change (which
changes all the time!). 

 

The evolution of life on earth, especially that of so called "higher" life
forms, cannot keep pace with the current rate of change which is greatly
exacerbated by our rape of the planet. An increased rate of change
inevitably favors fast evolving "lower" life forms and a diminution of
biodiversity. That means that in the future we will manufacture our energy
from bioengineered pond scum and eat the byproducts thereof. That is not a
future that any responsible person would want for their children's children.

 

I am a fundamentally conservative person. That means that I prefer the
status quo, not the status quo of the twentieth century, but rather the
status quo of the last few million years during which time change was slow
and natural barriers prevented promiscuous intermingling. As a result of
which the biosphere increased in richness until quite recently. 

 

Those who question anthropogenic climate change are conservative in an
entirely different way. They are directed by their inner ape to consume the
fruit right now with no regard whatsoever for either the past or the future.
They look at their ephemeral institutions as fixed in stone by some
imaginary higher power who justifies their dominance over every other life
form on earth. 

 

As a true conservative I never thought I would see the day that I would
abandon such quaint and antiquated concepts as individual freedom, human
rights and the dignity of man, but that day has come. When I listen to the
apelike gibberings of christians, moslems, republicans, and others who deny
the reality of our impact on the earth I long for the day when our future
Chinese overlords will have the wisdom to simply shut the mouths of the
godfearing, eradicate redundant populations, dole out a gobbet of porridge
for all, and cut off the balls of those who insist upon putting their hands
into the cookie jar.

 

Sleazeweazel

 

 

 

 

[Texascavers] Mystery rocks, Chicxulub?

[BMorgan994]

 
Josh:
 
I'll buy your explanation for Jim Conrad's road cut, but my mystery rocks  
are entirely different. Tell me what you think:
 
(Photo not shown, email me and I will send it. Is there any way to post a  
resized photo on Texas caver? I see that others have occasionally posted 
photos.  I tried but failed)
 
These mystery rocks occur in broad shallow pans west of Cancun near the  
airport that look superficially like dolinas, actually more like the wet  
"prairies" here in Florida. It is only the top layer that is hard and has  
inclusions. Beneath that is standard yucatecan crumbly white limestone. There  
were occasional solution holes in the pans but no real cenotes. You are not  
looking at the top or bottom of one of the flat rocks, but rather a broken  
chunk, so don't infer any particular orientation. 
 
I would have supposed that this was some form of hardpan, or perhaps  
chertification as you can see in the upper left rock, but the lack of 
inclusions  
further down and the immediate change in hardness tells me this is a 
separate  formation. The surface rocks in the yucatan are generally harder than 
the rocks  further down, which is part of the reason why the cenotes almost 
always bell out  as they go down. That is normal, but when I looked carefully 
at these specific  rocks in the pans I discovered something very strange. 
The pan rocks were in  solid (though broken) sheets averaging about 8" thick, 
and were composed of a  matrix of hard creamy white fossiliferous limestone 
in which were numerous  broken jagged chunks of what looks like dark gray 
dolomite to me, but I could be  wrong about that. The chunks are clastic, not 
rounded and weathered, and rarely  touch each other. It looks like cake mix 
with chunky treats mixed in. What could  cause such a thing? It seems 
obvious to me that a huge disaster was  required to turn the limestone matrix 
into 
soup with jagged chunks. A  conventional flood would sort the inclusions 
differently and round them too.  

The Yucatan is generally a wretched dry place covered with tangled scrub  
that has been abused by people and fire for thousands of years. The only 
places  that are botanically interesting were these pans, which were 
alternately 
flooded  then burned each year resulting in an open savanna landscape with  
occasional "Logwood" trees (Haematoxylum campechianum is a cool twisted 
small  tree which yields a purple dye, and as a result was long sought in days 
of  yore).
 
 
The reason I discovered all this is because once upon a time I built a  
monstrous waterfall at a hideous resort in Cancun. Most of the limestone in the 
 Yucatan is worthless white chalky crap unworthy of working with, but in 
certain  areas, such as near the Cancun airport, there were these botanically 
and  geologically interesting "pans" in which the surface limestone was much 
harder,  flatter, and more useful. So in I went with a whole tribe of 
Mayans to harvest  the stone by hand. 
 
On day one I did something extra stupid. Bigger rocks are always better,  
especially if someone else is lifting them, so I pointed at a big slab about 
the  size of a dining room table. The Mayans said "No way Jose, too big!" 
But I  insisted, so I said, all you little guys get on one end and I'll take 
the other  and we'll put it in the truck. With great effort we lifted it up 
and into the  truck, but in doing so I got 3/4 of an inch shorter as my 
cervical vertebra  collapsed. I've always been short, so getting permanently 
shorter and being in  pain for years didn't help! After that we collected 
smaller rocks in the 100-150  lbs range, each one of which was pried up in the 
scrub jungle, loaded onto the  back of an individual Indian, carried to the 
truck, lifted in, taken to the  site, unloaded, picked up again to reload on 
the back of another Indian, carried  through the already occupied resort, then 
lifted up the scaffolding by hand to  be set. We even carried in a sixty 
foot tall royal palm that weighed perhaps six  tons. 
 
I was much impressed by the fact that the Mayans were invariably smarter  
than any of the tourists, who were so dumb that after months I had seen only 
one  reading a book so I went over to see what he was reading and it was a 
Reader's  digest. The only smart Gringos I met the whole time I was there 
were two  professional "closers" who would fly in, ply the prospective chump 
with drinks  and cocaine, then threaten to kill them if they didn't sign the 
timeshare  contract. Meanwhile back in the village otherwise illiterate Mayan 
kids were  learning computer aided design by candlelight. Their skill and 
craftsmanship  were extraordinary. The boss was an edjumacated Mexican 
aristocrat. The site was  gigantic, about an 1/8 of a mile across, yet his 
tolerance for mistakes was only  1/8" regardless of whether the issue was a 
window 
frame or the entire site, but  the Mayans never made mistakes. Everything 
was perfect despite that fact 

[Texascavers] Fwd: Understanding the geology behind a landslide

[Joe & Evelynn Mitchell]

Understanding the geology behind a landslide

Reported by: Steve Linscomb
Email: stevelinsc...@woaitv.com
Last Update: 6:42 pm

Landslide Close-Up (WOAI.com)
SAN ANTONIO - A number of Northwest Side homeowners are watching as  
their homes are devastated as they slide down a slope. Sadly, there's  
not much they can do. But many in the area -- and all across San  
Antonio -- are wondering, why is it this happening?


Geologists say landslides and other types of land movments can, and  
do, happen in South Central Texas for a number of different reasons.  
Many times they happen in areas where construction is going on.


We talked with homeowners that could only watch their homes slide and  
wonder what's happening. Travis Walston first noticed the crack in his  
yard and called about it when it began to grow big enough to look down  
into it.


"You could see the different layers... there's a lot of earth. There's  
a lot of mother nature in this," Walston told News 4 WOAI. "I don't  
understand the retaining wall. There's no rebar. There's really no  
support."


So what could be happening here? We talked with Saint Mary's  
University professor of geophysics Evelynn Mitchell who says it looks  
to be an example of what is called "mass wasting." That's the downward  
movement of earth and rock. At work are two forces.


"Your resistant forces are going to keep this slope held up over time.  
The driving forces are what is encouraging the slope to move  
downward," explained Professor Mitchell.


If the driving force downward is greater, you can have a collapse.

Mitchell says water collection can add more problems, expanding the  
soil.


"Then the water is going to end up pushing along the slope, adding  
more force and overcoming that resistant force," said Mitchell.


It could be a while before we know exactly what happened in that  
Northwest Side neighborhood, but one thing's for sure; the landscape  
across South Central Texas is changing... whether it be from manmade  
or natural reasons.


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texascavers Digest 26 Jan 2010 01:13:39 -0000 Issue 952

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 26 Jan 2010 01:13:39 - Issue 952

Topics (messages 13376 through 13393):

Chicxulub?
13376 by: bmorgan994.aol.com

Re: Robber Baron - fall 1987
13377 by: Geary Schindel

Re: CBD Petition to close caves - Msg from NSS WNS Liaison
13378 by: Gill Edigar

mysterious roadcut geology
13379 by: Mixon Bill
13387 by: Josh Rubinstein

Re: cave like house.
13380 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
13381 by: Ryan Monjaras

caving and insurance
13382 by: David
13383 by: Ryan Monjaras
13385 by: Gill Edigar
13386 by: Brian Riordan
13391 by: wa5pok.peoplepc.com

Re: Ongoing rescue in Mexico -- Final report
13384 by: Fofo

San Antonio sinkholes..
13388 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net
13389 by: Geary Schindel

Re: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving
13390 by: Gill Edigar
13392 by: Jim Evatt
13393 by: Stephen Fleming

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Some years ago while working in Cancun I observed a strange and  
inexplicable limestone breccia formation that occurred in botanically  
interesting 
shallow surface pans, but not elsewhere. It was a 4" to 12" thick  surface 
layer of hard white fossiliferous limestone filled with jagged clastic  chunks 
of what looks like gray dolomite to me. The whole thing screamed high  energy 
ejecta, no rounded edges on the inclusions, and the inclusions rarely  
touch each other. It looks like the kind of thing you would associate with a  
violent volcanic mudflow, or an extraterrestrial impact as in Kaboom! Sploosh! 
 
I ran it up the TAGnet flagpole in 2007 and got several interesting  
responses from geologists but no definitive answers. Everyone agreed that high  
energy was involved, i.e., no progressive sorting, just one big event.  “
Calichification” could possibly explain why it is so much harder and more  
resistant than the underlying limestone, but what of the chunks? One person  
suggested reef facies and hurricanes, but that is not how it looks to me.  
Another suggested calcite cementation around breakdown in a sinkhole, but there 
 
is no evidence of that. The elephant in the room is Chicxulub, but isn’t all  
that a kilometer underground? What exactly is the age of the surface 
deposits in  the Yucatan?
 
Now Jim Conrad, who lives in the Yucatan and writes the wise and wonderful  
Naturalist Newsletter (Subscribe at: 
_http://www.backyardnature.net/news/natnat.php_ 
(http://www.backyardnature.net/news/natnat.php)   ) has observed 
something similar in a roadcut near Chichen Itza, evidence of  gratuitous 
limestone violence! It is all a great mystery!
 
Y’all GeoTexicans are the ones I should have asked in the first place. I  
kept some of the mystery rocks and have just taken macro photos. Shoot me an  
email and I will send my photos, Jim’s photo, and all my notes and 
responses for  your analysis. The consensus thus far is that the shallow pans 
where 
these  strange rocks occur are actually alien landing pads. That would also 
explain the  Mayans. Alternative explanations would be appreciated.
 
Sleazeweazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember that you needed good shocks in the car or you would jump tracks when 
you hit a big bump.  The other down side to 8 tracks is the only tapes I've 
seen for sale at yard sales lately is KC and the Sunshine Band.

G

From: bgillegi...@gmail.com [mailto:bgillegi...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Gill 
Edigar
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 8:11 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Robber Baron - fall 1987

I have one, still mounted in my old GMC with 31 Mexican tourist stickers on it, 
which plays both 4-track (the precursor to the 8-track and full-brother to the 
"carts"--cartridges that radio stations used for recording and playing canned 
ads) and 8-track tape cartridges. All that came just before cassettes which 
precluded CDs, etc. No matter what the medium it was still just music.
--Ediger
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 4:33 PM, George-Paul Richmann 
mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
What's an 8 track?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-- Forwarded message --
From: Cheryl Jones 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:00 AM
Subject: CBD Petition to close caves - Msg from NSS WNS Liaison
To: siv...@listserv.vt.edu


Received: Sat, 23 Jan 2010
From: Peter Youngbaer

ALERT

A national organization, the Center for Biological Diversity, has filed
emergency petitions that would radically affect access to caves in the
continental United States, and more.  In the press release are links to
their formal petitions.  Please take the time to fully read the petitions,
especially the firs

Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving

[Stephen Fleming]

Jim Evatt wrote:
I presume Jacqueline Buchanan is the District Ranger of the Guadalupe 
District.  I rather doubt that she has the financial authority to hire 
a cave specialist.  The decision to replace or create a position is 
almost certainly made at a higher level, particularly in light of the 
current federal budget deficit.  The District Ranger likely submits 
requests for positions to be filled, but I'd be astonished if the sole 
responsibility for hiring and release of federal funds, discretionary 
or otherwise, were made at the local level.


She is the Lincoln Forest Supervisor (that's above the District Ranger) 
and she has all the authority she needs to hire positions and spend 
money. However, hiring is done based on need, funding, finding a 
suitably qualified person and whether any particular position 
(especially in a time of strained budgets) is more or less important 
than another discipline. I guarantee you the FS does not think a 
dedicated cave specialist is anywhere near as important as cavers think 
it is. It is a moot point if the funds are not in the budget to do the 
hiring. In the grand scheme of things, cave specialists are pretty far 
down on the list of agency importance unless perhaps they fulfill a dual 
function, and you already know how those kinds of positions work out.


 
Comments would be better delivered to the District 3 Forest 
Supervisor, 333 Broadway SE, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 842-3292 in 
Albuquerque, or the USFS Chief Thomas Tidwell, 1400 Independence Ave., 
SW Washington, D.C. 20250-0003 (800) 832-1355, or ultimately the Dept. 
of Agriculture Secretary Thomas J. Vilsack, U.S. Department of 
Agriculture, 1400 Independence Ave., S.W., Washington, DC 
20250 Information Hotline: (202) 720-2791 .  If anyone has the missing 
name or email addresses of the above please post.


Won't hurt, but don't get your hopes up.


--
Stephen Fleming
__

Poor New Mexico! So far from Heaven; so close to Texas.

Manuel Armijo
Governor of the Department of New Mexico
1827-29, 1837-44, 1845-46

Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving

[Jim Evatt]

I presume Jacqueline Buchanan is the District Ranger of the Guadalupe District. 
 I rather doubt that she has the financial authority to hire a cave specialist. 
 The decision to replace or create a position is almost certainly made at a 
higher level, particularly in light of the current federal budget deficit.  The 
District Ranger likely submits requests for positions to be filled, but I'd be 
astonished if the sole responsibility for hiring and release of federal funds, 
discretionary or otherwise, were made at the local level.

Comments would be better delivered to the District 3 Forest Supervisor, 333 
Broadway SE, Albuquerque, NM 87102 (505) 842-3292 in Albuquerque, or the USFS 
Chief Thomas Tidwell, 1400 Independence Ave., SW Washington, D.C. 20250-0003 
(800) 832-1355, or ultimately the Dept. of Agriculture Secretary Thomas J. 
Vilsack, U.S. Department of Agriculture, 1400 Independence Ave., S.W., 
Washington, DC 20250 Information Hotline: (202) 720-2791 .  If anyone has the 
missing name or email addresses of the above please post.

Right or wrong, cavers have been the true managers of Guad caves for over 50 
years.  The USFS needs to be made aware (again!) that they have an ethical and 
moral responsibility (and I believe an M.O.U. with NSS) to provide management 
of and permitted access to Guadalupe Caves.  Failure to do so will lead to 
clandestine trips, gate damage or removal, and cave vandalism, as the past has 
repeatedly proven.

Jim Evatt

- Original Message - 
  From: Gill Edigar 
  To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
  Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:18 PM
  Subject: [Texascavers] Fwd: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving





  -- Forwarded message --
  From: jen. 
  Date: Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:41 PM
  Subject: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving
  To: we...@cunacueva.com, nssbo...@yahoogroups.com, nmca...@caver.net


  It is my understanding that the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National 
Forest in NM is no longer issuing recreational caving permits due to their lack 
of funding for a cave specialist.  I have heard rumors they might be 
considering allowing commercial guides.  In 1998 the NSS agreed to provide 
volunteer services to Forest Service cave programs in lieu of Fee Demonstration 
Projects being applied to caves.  Over 1/2 million dollars of Volunteer Value 
has been provided on this district of the forest by cavers since then.

  The Forest Service needs to provide funding for a cave specialist for this 
district, continue to manage their caves, and issue recreational cave permits 
to the public per their cave management plan.



  Contact

  Forest Supervisor:
  Jacqueline (Jacque) A. Buchanan
  jabucha...@fs.fed.us




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Re: [Texascavers] caving and insurance

[wa5pok]

> How would a student organization like the geology club be different
> from a student organization like the caving club? Does that mean that
> so long as it's not announced as a club trip then everyone would be
> considered to be an individual caver--not a club member?  --Ediger
>
Well ... at Sul Ross (early '70s) I belonged to a Geology Club
sponsored by one geology professor and I belonged to the Cave club
sponsored by another geology professor (our own DirtDoc)

Somethings were the same (meetings) we... Something were different
(trips) ... insurance then ... never heard of it

Mike


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[NMCAVER] Fort Stanton Cave science story

[Lee H. Skinner]

http://www.unm.edu/~market/cgi-bin/archives/004713.html

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[NMCAVER] CBD petition

[Jim Kennedy]

This is indeed a knee-jerk reaction that will likely have many  
unintended negative results.  BCI is formulating a statement on this  
petition. Check the website (www.batcon.org) later this week for an  
update.

--- Crash


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Re: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving

[Stephen Fleming]

jen. wrote:

It is my understanding that the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National 
Forest in NM is no longer issuing recreational caving permits due to their lack 
of funding for a cave specialist.  I have heard rumors they might be 
considering allowing commercial guides.  In 1998 the NSS agreed to provide 
volunteer services to Forest Service cave programs in lieu of Fee Demonstration 
Projects being applied to caves.  Over 1/2 million dollars of Volunteer Value 
has been provided on this district of the forest by cavers since then.

The Forest Service needs to provide funding for a cave specialist for this 
district, continue to manage their caves, and issue recreational cave permits 
to the public per their cave management plan.



No, what they need to do is rescind their idiotic rule that you have to 
have a permit to go in ungated caves. Then, caving could proceed as it 
does on BLM land, where permits are needed only for gated caves. The 
failure of an agency to have a certain kind of employee should not cause 
the public to be barred from a legitimate activity.


They don't have a hunting specialist, birding specialist, camping or 
hiking specialist and if they pursued the same line of reasoning you 
would not be able to do any of those in the absence of a 'specialist' to 
hold your hand and tell you how to behave.


Of course as soon as the CBD gets finished, caving will be a thing of 
the past.


--
Stephen Fleming
__

Poor New Mexico! So far from Heaven; so close to Texas.

Manuel Armijo
Governor of the Department of New Mexico
1827-29, 1837-44, 1845-46


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[Texascavers] Fwd: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving

[Gill Edigar]

-- Forwarded message --
From: jen. 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:41 PM
Subject: [NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving
To: we...@cunacueva.com, nssbo...@yahoogroups.com, nmca...@caver.net


It is my understanding that the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National
Forest in NM is no longer issuing recreational caving permits due to their
lack of funding for a cave specialist.  I have heard rumors they might be
considering allowing commercial guides.  In 1998 the NSS agreed to provide
volunteer services to Forest Service cave programs in lieu of Fee
Demonstration Projects being applied to caves.  Over 1/2 million dollars of
Volunteer Value has been provided on this district of the forest by cavers
since then.

The Forest Service needs to provide funding for a cave specialist for this
district, continue to manage their caves, and issue recreational cave
permits to the public per their cave management plan.



Contact

Forest Supervisor:
Jacqueline (Jacque) A. Buchanan
jabucha...@fs.fed.us




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[ot_caving] 8 tracks

[Fritz Holt]

I may have the last word on this but I am jumping to OT as it would be a 
stretch (until broken) to call this caving related.

The coolest songs and sounds for me was "The Best of Bread" on the Quadraphonic 
player in my 74 Chevy Nova. The different sounds from four corners was awesome. 
Wish I had it back and that they still recorded in this mode.

Geezer

Fritz Holt
Town & Country Insurance Agency
10575 Katy Freeway, Suite 150
Houston, Texas 77024
713-461-8979
713-464-2674 Fax

Thank you for doing business with Town & Country Insurance.

** June through November our agency may become prohibited from binding coverage 
should a "Tropical Disturbance" enter the Gulf of Mexico or Caribbean Sea.  In 
these cases we will be unable to bind coverage previously quoted until the 
storm leaves our area and our writing authority has been restored.**  Coverage 
cannot be bound or altered using voice mail or e-mail without verification by a 
licensed representative.

[NMCAVER] Fw: Statement from Peter Youngbaer, WNS liaison for the NSS

[jen.]

- Forwarded Message 
From: Steve Smith 
To: stevenlsm...@usa.net
Cc: youngba...@aol.com; we...@cunacueva.com
Sent: Sat, January 23, 2010 9:16:06 PM
Subject: Statement from Peter Youngbaer, WNS liaison for the NSS

I just received this statement from Peter Youngbaer, White Nose Syndrome (WNS)
liaison for the NSS, who requested it be sent out on the Grotto Conservation
Network (GCN).  Please fire it out soonest to your folks within your IO.

In my never-ending quest to keep the GCN addressee list as current as
possible, I'd appreciate it greatly if each IO would send me their "druthers"
on who within the IO they'd like to receive this info.  Normally, I send it to
the IO's Conservation Chair.  But if the IO doesn't have a designated
Conservation Chair, then I send it to the overall IO Chair.  Please send me
any addressee changes/updates due to IO internal elections, folks moving out
of town, etc.  

Thanks!

For Val Hildreth-Werker and Jim Werker, NSS Conservation Co-Chairs 

Steve Smith, GCN coordinator



-- Original Message --
Received: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 
From: Peter Youngbaer

ALERT

A national organization, the Center for Biological Diversity, has filed
emergency petitions that would radically affect access to caves in the
continental United States, and more.  In the press release are links to their
formal petitions.  Please take the time to fully read the petitions,
especially the first, which deals most directly with cave access.

In brief, they have petitioned the federal government to close all caves and
mines on federal lands within the continental U.S., designating all caves and
mines on federal land within the continental United States as "significant",
promulgate a new rule defining "taking" under the Endangered Species Act that
would ban traveling between any caves on public or private land, making both
cavers and landowners legally liable; and adding two bat species - Eastern
Small-footed, and Northern Long-eared - to the federal Endangered Species
list.  They cite White Nose Syndrome (WNS) as the reason for doing all of
this.

_http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2010/bats-01-21-2010.html_

(http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2010/bats-01-21-2010.html)


As the WNS Liaison for the NSS, I believe this is an extremely serious threat
from a well-funded and litigious organization, and should be responded to at
all levels, including by cave conservancies as organizations.  I shudder to
think of the possible conservation ramifications: sealing of caves by
blasting, bulldozing, refilling sinkholes with rubbish that we worked so 
hard to pull out, groundwater pollution, vandalism, long-established
collaborative relationships with landowners and agencies, and ironically, the
destruction of cave habitat.  

I strongly suggest a prompt and professional response, sending any
correspondence to pertinent parties at the Center for Biological Diversity and
IMPORTANTLY to the federal officials to whom they sent petitions.  Those
federal officials are listed within the petitions.  The key CBD personnel are
:

Mollie Matteson, Conservation Advocate, author of the material:  
_mmatteson@biologicaldiversity.org_
(mailto:mmatte...@biologicaldiversity.org)

Kieran  Suckling, Executive Director and founder:  
_ksuckling@biologicaldiversity.org_ (mailto:ksuckl...@biologicaldiversity.org)


Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Peter Youngbaer
NSS WNS Liaison
youngba...@aol.com


  
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RE: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..

[Geary Schindel]

Folks,

This is not a sinkhole but a classic hill slope failure.  Quite impressive as 
slips go.

Geary

-Original Message-
From: tbsam...@verizon.net [mailto:tbsam...@verizon.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 12:32 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Cc: jrsam...@aol.com
Subject: [Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..


“Our backyard has shifted about 10 feet, and everything is pushed closer to our 
house,” said Sara Koenig, 23.

She and her husband, 27, left early Sunday to study and to volunteer at a local 
hospital, respectively. She said neighbors called her at 11 a.m. to report 
their back fence had collapsed but her two Chihuahuas were safe.



Near helotes.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/82553087.html


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[NMCAVER] LNF closing for recreational caving

[jen.]

It is my understanding that the Guadalupe District of the Lincoln National 
Forest in NM is no longer issuing recreational caving permits due to their lack 
of funding for a cave specialist.  I have heard rumors they might be 
considering allowing commercial guides.  In 1998 the NSS agreed to provide 
volunteer services to Forest Service cave programs in lieu of Fee Demonstration 
Projects being applied to caves.  Over 1/2 million dollars of Volunteer Value 
has been provided on this district of the forest by cavers since then.

The Forest Service needs to provide funding for a cave specialist for this 
district, continue to manage their caves, and issue recreational cave permits 
to the public per their cave management plan.



Contact

Forest Supervisor:
Jacqueline (Jacque) A. Buchanan
jabucha...@fs.fed.us



  
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[Texascavers] San Antonio sinkholes..

[tbsamsel]

“Our backyard has shifted about 10 feet, and everything is pushed closer to our 
house,” said Sara Koenig, 23.

She and her husband, 27, left early Sunday to study and to volunteer at a local 
hospital, respectively. She said neighbors called her at 11 a.m. to report 
their back fence had collapsed but her two Chihuahuas were safe.



Near helotes.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/82553087.html


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Re: [Texascavers] mysterious roadcut geology

[Josh Rubinstein]

I'll take a shot at this.  My guess from one photo is that this a ball and
pillow structure.  These are caused by slumping or landslides
particularly in submarine environments where denser material slides down
slope on saturated less dense material.  As seen in the photo, such
structures are rounded and wrapped in softer beds.  The structure in the
photo is further deformed by a thrust fault and a beautiful drag fold where
the bed is turned over on itself.  Pillow structures and localized thrust
faulting are not uncommon.  Neat site.

thanks,

Josh

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Mixon Bill wrote:

> Here's what Jim Conrad posted in his Naturalist Newsletter about the
> roadcut breccia that Bruce Morgan was asking about. It includes a link to a
> photograph. -- Mixon
>
> MYSTERIOUS ROADCUT
> Each week when I hike to Pisté to buy fruit, on Hwy
> 180 between Mérida and Cancún and about half a mile
> from the center of the ruins of Chichén Itzá, I pass
> within ten feet of the roadcut through limestone seen
> at http://www.backyardnature.net/n/10/100124rx.jpg
>
> That's a vertical section of the roadcut about six
> feet high. Note the weeds at the lower right for
> scale.
>
> About 65 millions years ago the entire Yucatan
> Peninsula was covered by sea, as was much of the US
> Southeastern Coastal Plain. At that time, at the end
> of the Cretaceous Period, an object from space at
> least six-miles wide (10 km) crashed into the sea at a
> spot now located -- after the Yucatan Peninsula has
> risen above sea level -- a few miles off the Yucatan's
> northwestern coast. The crater caused by that impact,
> today known as the Chicxulub Crater, was about 112
> miles in diameter (180 kms). The Wikipedia page
> describing the Chicxulub Crater is at
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater
>
> Long after the crater was formed, during the Oligocene
> about 25 million years ago, this part of the Yucatan
> Peninsula began rising, pushed upwards by forces from
> within the Earth. What earlier had been the carbonate-
> rich mud of the ocean floor, and limestone rock below
> it lithified from that mud, gradually rose and kept
> rising until today it stands above sea level, but not
> by much. During those millions of years ocean currents
> gradually buried the Chicxulub Crater beneath mud that
> eventually hardened into limestone rock. Today if you
> stand where earlier the crater was formed, you'll see
> no signs of a crater at all. It's all buried beneath
> limestone deposited since the impact 65 million years
> ago. At Chichén Itzá we're well outside the crater's
> former location, but close enough for the ocean floor
> here to have been very disrupted.
>
> The mysterious thing about the roadcut is that what
> you see there suggests a great deal of turmoil.
> Sediment deposited in calm, seabed conditions is
> finely grained and the layering is even. The picture
> shows very uneven layering, some layers tilted and
> others not, and fragments of fractured rock appear to
> be embedded in what once was flowing mud. Maybe
> there's even a near-vertical fault cutting across the
> layers at the picture's right. I've seen layering like
> this in ancient mudflows beside volcanoes, but never
> in limestone areas that have been as geologically
> quiet as this one -- quiet since the Chicxulub Crater
> was formed. In fact, I can't think of anything in the
> Yucatan Peninsula's geological history that could
> have created such a story of geological turmoil
> as this picture suggests, except the Chicxulub Impact.
>
> It seems that if such a wonderful exhibition of the
> effects of the Chicxulub Impact were known, it'd
> appear at websites dealing with the event -- would
> even be an important tourist attraction. The Chicxulub
> Impact, after all, is often regarded as having killed
> off the dinosaurs worldwide, thus enabling mammals to
> begin their evolutionary ascendancy, eventually making
> possible humanity.
>
> Is there anyone out there who can confirm that what's
> in the picture is or is not evidence of the Chicxulub
> Impact?
> 
> A bore is a person who talks when you wish him to listen.
> 
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
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>
>

Re: [Texascavers] caving and insurance

[Brian Riordan]

I distinctly recall having ASS meetings where we talked about caves
that individuals COULD go to if they had the correct permission.  And
then "after" the meeting, someone would let it slip that they had
information where that was, and invite all their friends... Who of
course happened to be at the meeting.  I think we were vaguely aware
of some sort of red tape we might encounter if we officially invited
people representing ourselves as the organization and not as an
individual.  You can't assume people will take responsibility for
their own actions- adult or not.

Waivers were always signed, just in case.  I only remember meeting the
faculty advisor once, however, who evidently was the original advisor
in 1977.  He never came to a meeting, he'd just sign the club approval
and sponsorship papers once a year- a practice I'm pretty sure that
has been grandfathered in.

-B

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Gill Edigar  wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Ryan Monjaras 
> wrote:
>>
>> thats only if its a student organization like the geology club, but if an
>> individual student wants to go to CBSP then that persons regular insurance
>> would cover it if that person got injured
>
> How would a student organization like the geology club be different from a
> student organization like the caving club? Does that mean that so long as
> it's not announced as a club trip then everyone would be considered to be an
> individual caver--not a club member?
> --Ediger

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Re: [Texascavers] caving and insurance

[Gill Edigar]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Ryan Monjaras wrote:

>  thats only if its a student organization like the geology club, but if an
> individual student wants to go to CBSP then that persons regular insurance
> would cover it if that person got injured
>

How would a student organization like the geology club be different from a
student organization like the caving club? Does that mean that so long as
it's not announced as a club trip then everyone would be considered to be an
individual caver--not a club member?
--Ediger