Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-02 Thread Kevin King 
Just so I'm clear... what exactly would be different about such a license?
 Seems to me the typical licensing terms would work just fine, as long as
you have enough seats to handle the traffic.  I would, however, be
concerned about opening up the telnet port on a cloud architecture.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Robert Houben wrote:

> Does Rocket license Universe or Unidata for use in the cloud?
>
> Robert Houben
> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing Architecture
> Chief Technology Officer
> FusionWare Integration Corp.
> p: 604-777-4254 x158
> f: 604-608-5544
> http://www.fwic.net
> LinkedIn <
> http://www.linkedin.com/company/fusionware-integration-corp.?trk=fc_badge>
>  Twitter   FaceBook<
> http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/New-Westminster-BC/FusionWare-Integration-Corp/115116258510923
> >
>
> ___
> U2-Users mailing list
> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
___
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Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-02 Thread Robert Houben 
I should clarify my question.  What is the legality behind licensing a SaaS (or 
BPaaS) offering with a U2 system behind it?

I believe at one point there were terms of use in the user license that made a 
SaaS implementation potentially impractical.

BTW, believe it or not, providing Microsoft products in a SaaS environment is a 
violation of their license agreement, unless you get a special variant of their 
licenses (these raise the price significantly).  This is little known, and to 
date Microsoft has not been aggressive in enforcing it, but that apparently 
might be about to change.

U2, to my knowledge requires a special type of network license if you are going 
to provide pooled connections of any sort (e.g. through a web server.)  The 
special terms to look up seem to be "Connection Pooling" and "Concurrent User". 
 My initial read of the section describing these is that if I have potentially 
2 million different users who may use my service through web-based connection 
pooling through the term of the license, (even if not concurrently), I must 
have licenses enough (2 million of them) to support this.  I copy the block of 
text at the bottom of this message from a copy of the license agreement that I 
have (possibly out of date - that's part of the question).  Their definition of 
Concurrent seems a bit odd...

(BTW, I agree: I would *never* use an unprotected telnet session over the 
internet.  I would be inclined to have the U2 server hiding behind a good solid 
commercial grade web server.)

"Connection Pooling (CP): Licensee is not authorized to enable or engage in 
Connection Pooling unless Licensee is able to count and acquire required 
Concurrent Session or Concurrent User entitlements covering all unique 
individuals or single, unique instances of a software application that might 
process transactions using the Program. CP session entitlements [ which would 
cover use by any and all unique individuals or unique single instances of 
software programs over a single logical open, persistent connection ] are 
optionally available for purchase for use with the Workgroup Edition, but are 
limited to a maximum of two (2) CP sessions. Enterprise Edition is offered with 
two (2) initial Rocket CP sessions with optional additional CP session 
entitlements available for purchase."

"... that might process transactions..." This would effectively blow any SaaS 
or BPaaS option out of the water for a U2 based application.  I may be 
misunderstanding the above, or there may be a different license available 
somewhere, hence my question.

Thank you,

Robert Houben
IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing Architecture
Chief Technology Officer
FusionWare Integration Corp.
p: 604-777-4254 x158
f: 604-608-5544
http://www.fwic.net

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
Sent: June-02-12 4:04 PM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

Just so I'm clear... what exactly would be different about such a license?
 Seems to me the typical licensing terms would work just fine, as long as you 
have enough seats to handle the traffic.  I would, however, be concerned about 
opening up the telnet port on a cloud architecture.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Robert Houben wrote:

> Does Rocket license Universe or Unidata for use in the cloud?
>
> Robert Houben
> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing
> Architecture Chief Technology Officer FusionWare Integration Corp.
> p: 604-777-4254 x158
> f: 604-608-5544
> http://www.fwic.net<http://www.fwic.net/>
> LinkedIn <
> http://www.linkedin.com/company/fusionware-integration-corp.?trk=fc_ba
> dge>  Twitter <http://www.twitter.com/fusionwareint>  FaceBook<
> http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/New-Westminster-BC/FusionWare-Integra
> tion-Corp/115116258510923
> >
>
> ___
> U2-Users mailing list
> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
___
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Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-03 Thread Wjhonson 

 access your application over the web
Seriously you can't imagine that they are inert to the idea that a typical 
sales website might get a thousand hits a day from a thousand random web 
surfers.  So you have to consider that you are not reading this correctly.


 

 

-Original Message-
From: Robert Houben 
To: U2 Users List 
Sent: Sat, Jun 2, 2012 11:23 pm
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud


I should clarify my question.  What is the legality behind licensing a SaaS (or 
BPaaS) offering with a U2 system behind it?

I believe at one point there were terms of use in the user license that made a 
SaaS implementation potentially impractical.

BTW, believe it or not, providing Microsoft products in a SaaS environment is a 
violation of their license agreement, unless you get a special variant of their 
licenses (these raise the price significantly).  This is little known, and to 
date Microsoft has not been aggressive in enforcing it, but that apparently 
might be about to change.

U2, to my knowledge requires a special type of network license if you are going 
to provide pooled connections of any sort (e.g. through a web server.)  The 
special terms to look up seem to be "Connection Pooling" and "Concurrent User". 
 
My initial read of the section describing these is that if I have potentially 2 
million different users who may use my service through web-based connection 
pooling through the term of the license, (even if not concurrently), I must 
have 
licenses enough (2 million of them) to support this.  I copy the block of text 
at the bottom of this message from a copy of the license agreement that I have 
(possibly out of date - that's part of the question).  Their definition of 
Concurrent seems a bit odd...

(BTW, I agree: I would *never* use an unprotected telnet session over the 
internet.  I would be inclined to have the U2 server hiding behind a good solid 
commercial grade web server.)

"Connection Pooling (CP): Licensee is not authorized to enable or engage in 
Connection Pooling unless Licensee is able to count and acquire required 
Concurrent Session or Concurrent User entitlements covering all unique 
individuals or single, unique instances of a software application that might 
process transactions using the Program. CP session entitlements [ which would 
cover use by any and all unique individuals or unique single instances of 
software programs over a single logical open, persistent connection ] are 
optionally available for purchase for use with the Workgroup Edition, but are 
limited to a maximum of two (2) CP sessions. Enterprise Edition is offered with 
two (2) initial Rocket CP sessions with optional additional CP session 
entitlements available for purchase."

"... that might process transactions..." This would effectively blow any SaaS 
or 
BPaaS option out of the water for a U2 based application.  I may be 
misunderstanding the above, or there may be a different license available 
somewhere, hence my question.

Thank you,

Robert Houben
IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing Architecture
Chief Technology Officer
FusionWare Integration Corp.
p: 604-777-4254 x158
f: 604-608-5544
http://www.fwic.net

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] 
On Behalf Of Kevin King
Sent: June-02-12 4:04 PM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

Just so I'm clear... what exactly would be different about such a license?
 Seems to me the typical licensing terms would work just fine, as long as you 
have enough seats to handle the traffic.  I would, however, be concerned about 
opening up the telnet port on a cloud architecture.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Robert Houben wrote:

> Does Rocket license Universe or Unidata for use in the cloud?
>
> Robert Houben
> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing
> Architecture Chief Technology Officer FusionWare Integration Corp.
> p: 604-777-4254 x158
> f: 604-608-5544
> http://www.fwic.net<http://www.fwic.net/>
> LinkedIn <
> http://www.linkedin.com/company/fusionware-integration-corp.?trk=fc_ba
> dge>  Twitter <http://www.twitter.com/fusionwareint>  FaceBook<
> http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/New-Westminster-BC/FusionWare-Integra
> tion-Corp/115116258510923
> >
>
> ___
> U2-Users mailing list
> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
___
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http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
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Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread Brian Leach 
it means quite simply that you must purchase sufficient Connection Pools to 
handle the likely traffic. You cannot use your own queueing mechanisms in their 
place (and notice the word "logical" before open connection -work out what that 
means).

But you will have to work out the financial implications of that and whether U2 
is financially tenable for what you want: whether your website would be 
delivering sufficient value to you per user (as an ecommerce site should) or is 
based on a model of very small values from a very large catchment population 
(e.g. backing a popular 0.99 dollar app).

I guess Rocket must have the sales figures to show that the income from 
connection pooling makes this restriction worthwhile. 


Brian

Sent from my iPad

On 3 Jun 2012, at 07:22, Robert Houben  wrote:

> I should clarify my question.  What is the legality behind licensing a SaaS 
> (or BPaaS) offering with a U2 system behind it?
> 
> I believe at one point there were terms of use in the user license that made 
> a SaaS implementation potentially impractical.
> 
> BTW, believe it or not, providing Microsoft products in a SaaS environment is 
> a violation of their license agreement, unless you get a special variant of 
> their licenses (these raise the price significantly).  This is little known, 
> and to date Microsoft has not been aggressive in enforcing it, but that 
> apparently might be about to change.
> 
> U2, to my knowledge requires a special type of network license if you are 
> going to provide pooled connections of any sort (e.g. through a web server.)  
> The special terms to look up seem to be "Connection Pooling" and "Concurrent 
> User".  My initial read of the section describing these is that if I have 
> potentially 2 million different users who may use my service through 
> web-based connection pooling through the term of the license, (even if not 
> concurrently), I must have licenses enough (2 million of them) to support 
> this.  I copy the block of text at the bottom of this message from a copy of 
> the license agreement that I have (possibly out of date - that's part of the 
> question).  Their definition of Concurrent seems a bit odd...
> 
> (BTW, I agree: I would *never* use an unprotected telnet session over the 
> internet.  I would be inclined to have the U2 server hiding behind a good 
> solid commercial grade web server.)
> 
> "Connection Pooling (CP): Licensee is not authorized to enable or engage in 
> Connection Pooling unless Licensee is able to count and acquire required 
> Concurrent Session or Concurrent User entitlements covering all unique 
> individuals or single, unique instances of a software application that might 
> process transactions using the Program. CP session entitlements [ which would 
> cover use by any and all unique individuals or unique single instances of 
> software programs over a single logical open, persistent connection ] are 
> optionally available for purchase for use with the Workgroup Edition, but are 
> limited to a maximum of two (2) CP sessions. Enterprise Edition is offered 
> with two (2) initial Rocket CP sessions with optional additional CP session 
> entitlements available for purchase."
> 
> "... that might process transactions..." This would effectively blow any SaaS 
> or BPaaS option out of the water for a U2 based application.  I may be 
> misunderstanding the above, or there may be a different license available 
> somewhere, hence my question.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Robert Houben
> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing Architecture
> Chief Technology Officer
> FusionWare Integration Corp.
> p: 604-777-4254 x158
> f: 604-608-5544
> http://www.fwic.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
> Sent: June-02-12 4:04 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud
> 
> Just so I'm clear... what exactly would be different about such a license?
> Seems to me the typical licensing terms would work just fine, as long as you 
> have enough seats to handle the traffic.  I would, however, be concerned 
> about opening up the telnet port on a cloud architecture.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Robert Houben wrote:
> 
>> Does Rocket license Universe or Unidata for use in the cloud?
>> 
>> Robert Houben
>> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing
>> Architecture Chief Technology Officer FusionWare Integration Corp.
>> p: 604-777-4254 x158
>> f: 604-608-5544
>> http://www.fwic.net<http://www.fwic.net/>
>> LinkedIn <
>> http

Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread George Land 
I think that there is quite a bit of confusion on different terms.

Firstly there is no problem in developing and hosting web based applications
using U2, many of the successful U2 applications today are web based.  But
since U2 is licensed per user what you can't do is simply have a small
license that connection pools - in other words runs a few processes that
listen for work from a large user base and services them.

Instead if you connection pool using Rocket's or your own technology then
you need to buy connection pooling licenses.  Whilst this pricing model is
different to Oracle and Microsoft it is also often less expensive, it all
depends on the configuration of the system being implemented.

But that's different from SaaS, connection pooling is about a technical
architecture whilst SaaS is really a pricing model.  You can adopt a SaaS
pricing model on an in house application just as you can adopt a
conventional user licensing model on an application that is hosted/in the
cloud.

If you are implementing a true SaaS pricing model, so the customers pay per
transaction or per some other metric, and you want to pay for your U2
licenses on the same metric then you need to talk to Rocket or your
distributor if you are outside the US.  It is almost impossible to have an
'off the shelf' pricing model for this environment because the metrics you
use and the software you need to back it up will vary, particularly if the
demand is going to be seasonal.  But talk about it with whoever you buy
from.

George Land
APT Solutions Ltd
U2 UK Distributor



On 03/06/2012 07:22, "Robert Houben"  wrote:

> I should clarify my question.  What is the legality behind licensing a SaaS
> (or BPaaS) offering with a U2 system behind it?
> 
> I believe at one point there were terms of use in the user license that made a
> SaaS implementation potentially impractical.
> 
> BTW, believe it or not, providing Microsoft products in a SaaS environment is
> a violation of their license agreement, unless you get a special variant of
> their licenses (these raise the price significantly).  This is little known,
> and to date Microsoft has not been aggressive in enforcing it, but that
> apparently might be about to change.
> 
> U2, to my knowledge requires a special type of network license if you are
> going to provide pooled connections of any sort (e.g. through a web server.)
> The special terms to look up seem to be "Connection Pooling" and "Concurrent
> User".  My initial read of the section describing these is that if I have
> potentially 2 million different users who may use my service through web-based
> connection pooling through the term of the license, (even if not
> concurrently), I must have licenses enough (2 million of them) to support
> this.  I copy the block of text at the bottom of this message from a copy of
> the license agreement that I have (possibly out of date - that's part of the
> question).  Their definition of Concurrent seems a bit odd...
> 
> (BTW, I agree: I would *never* use an unprotected telnet session over the
> internet.  I would be inclined to have the U2 server hiding behind a good
> solid commercial grade web server.)
> 
> "Connection Pooling (CP): Licensee is not authorized to enable or engage in
> Connection Pooling unless Licensee is able to count and acquire required
> Concurrent Session or Concurrent User entitlements covering all unique
> individuals or single, unique instances of a software application that might
> process transactions using the Program. CP session entitlements [ which would
> cover use by any and all unique individuals or unique single instances of
> software programs over a single logical open, persistent connection ] are
> optionally available for purchase for use with the Workgroup Edition, but are
> limited to a maximum of two (2) CP sessions. Enterprise Edition is offered
> with two (2) initial Rocket CP sessions with optional additional CP session
> entitlements available for purchase."
> 
> "... that might process transactions..." This would effectively blow any SaaS
> or BPaaS option out of the water for a U2 based application.  I may be
> misunderstanding the above, or there may be a different license available
> somewhere, hence my question.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Robert Houben
> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing Architecture
> Chief Technology Officer
> FusionWare Integration Corp.
> p: 604-777-4254 x158
> f: 604-608-5544
> http://www.fwic.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
> Sent: June-02-12 4:04 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Clo

Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread Kevin King 
nless Licensee is able to count and acquire required
> > Concurrent Session or Concurrent User entitlements covering all unique
> > individuals or single, unique instances of a software application that
> might
> > process transactions using the Program. CP session entitlements [ which
> would
> > cover use by any and all unique individuals or unique single instances of
> > software programs over a single logical open, persistent connection ] are
> > optionally available for purchase for use with the Workgroup Edition,
> but are
> > limited to a maximum of two (2) CP sessions. Enterprise Edition is
> offered
> > with two (2) initial Rocket CP sessions with optional additional CP
> session
> > entitlements available for purchase."
> >
> > "... that might process transactions..." This would effectively blow any
> SaaS
> > or BPaaS option out of the water for a U2 based application.  I may be
> > misunderstanding the above, or there may be a different license available
> > somewhere, hence my question.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Robert Houben
> > IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing
> Architecture
> > Chief Technology Officer
> > FusionWare Integration Corp.
> > p: 604-777-4254 x158
> > f: 604-608-5544
> > http://www.fwic.net
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
> > Sent: June-02-12 4:04 PM
> > To: U2 Users List
> > Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud
> >
> > Just so I'm clear... what exactly would be different about such a
> license?
> >  Seems to me the typical licensing terms would work just fine, as long
> as you
> > have enough seats to handle the traffic.  I would, however, be concerned
> about
> > opening up the telnet port on a cloud architecture.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Robert Houben  >wrote:
> >
> >> Does Rocket license Universe or Unidata for use in the cloud?
> >>
> >> Robert Houben
> >> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing
> >> Architecture Chief Technology Officer FusionWare Integration Corp.
> >> p: 604-777-4254 x158
> >> f: 604-608-5544
> >> http://www.fwic.net<http://www.fwic.net/>
> >> LinkedIn <
> >> http://www.linkedin.com/company/fusionware-integration-corp.?trk=fc_ba
> >> dge>  Twitter <http://www.twitter.com/fusionwareint>  FaceBook<
> >> http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/New-Westminster-BC/FusionWare-Integra
> >> tion-Corp/115116258510923
> >>>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> U2-Users mailing list
> >> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> >> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
> >>
> > ___
> > U2-Users mailing list
> > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
> > ___
> > U2-Users mailing list
> > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
> ___
> U2-Users mailing list
> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
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Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread David Wolverton 
They do have an "ASP" license -- it's an annual license fee instead of the
'permanent' fee.

-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 6:04 PM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

Just so I'm clear... what exactly would be different about such a license?
 Seems to me the typical licensing terms would work just fine, as long as
you have enough seats to handle the traffic.  I would, however, be concerned
about opening up the telnet port on a cloud architecture.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Robert Houben wrote:

> Does Rocket license Universe or Unidata for use in the cloud?
>
> Robert Houben
> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing 
> Architecture Chief Technology Officer FusionWare Integration Corp.
> p: 604-777-4254 x158
> f: 604-608-5544
> http://www.fwic.net<http://www.fwic.net/>
> LinkedIn <
> http://www.linkedin.com/company/fusionware-integration-corp.?trk=fc_ba
> dge>  Twitter <http://www.twitter.com/fusionwareint>  FaceBook<
> http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/New-Westminster-BC/FusionWare-Integra
> tion-Corp/115116258510923
> >
>
> ___
> U2-Users mailing list
> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
___
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Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread George Land 
Actually ASP is being 'retired', there is now a fixed term license which
means that you don't have the same up front fee but pay more as an annual
fee.  And if true SaaS is what you need, paying based on the number of
transactions processed or whatever, then you need to talk about it.  I'm not
saying that it will be agreed to, but if it's a sensible proposal that
brings in decent revenue there is every chance it may be agreed.

George Land
APT Solutions Ltd
U2 UK Distributor


On 04/06/2012 14:41, "David Wolverton"  wrote:

> They do have an "ASP" license -- it's an annual license fee instead of the
> 'permanent' fee.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2012 6:04 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud
> 
> Just so I'm clear... what exactly would be different about such a license?
>  Seems to me the typical licensing terms would work just fine, as long as
> you have enough seats to handle the traffic.  I would, however, be concerned
> about opening up the telnet port on a cloud architecture.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Robert Houben wrote:
> 
>> Does Rocket license Universe or Unidata for use in the cloud?
>> 
>> Robert Houben
>> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing
>> Architecture Chief Technology Officer FusionWare Integration Corp.
>> p: 604-777-4254 x158
>> f: 604-608-5544
>> http://www.fwic.net<http://www.fwic.net/>
>> LinkedIn <
>> http://www.linkedin.com/company/fusionware-integration-corp.?trk=fc_ba
>> dge>  Twitter <http://www.twitter.com/fusionwareint>  FaceBook<
>> http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/New-Westminster-BC/FusionWare-Integra
>> tion-Corp/115116258510923
>>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> U2-Users mailing list
>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>> 
> ___
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> 
> 
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Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread Robert Houben 
As usual this group is a wealth of information.  I think the "talk to Rocket" 
is the most useful thing.  Our OLE DB driver uses Microsofts OLE DB Resource 
Pooling (built into Windows) to pool.  Our other products provide built-in 
pooling. We've always told our U2 customers that they need to get connection 
pooling licenses.  The wording of the license agreements suggests that whoever 
wrote it did not understand how most applications use connection pooling.  I 
was curious if this had been cleared up.  Unfortunately, if anything goes 
wrong, unless you have something written to refer to, the actual wording of the 
license will be used by the courts.

Thank you,

Robert Houben
IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing Architecture
Chief Technology Officer
FusionWare Integration Corp.
p: 604-777-4254 x158
f: 604-608-5544
http://www.fwic.net
LinkedIn  Twitter  FaceBook



-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Land
Sent: June-04-12 1:33 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

I think that there is quite a bit of confusion on different terms.

Firstly there is no problem in developing and hosting web based applications 
using U2, many of the successful U2 applications today are web based.  But 
since U2 is licensed per user what you can't do is simply have a small license 
that connection pools - in other words runs a few processes that listen for 
work from a large user base and services them.

Instead if you connection pool using Rocket's or your own technology then you 
need to buy connection pooling licenses.  Whilst this pricing model is 
different to Oracle and Microsoft it is also often less expensive, it all 
depends on the configuration of the system being implemented.

But that's different from SaaS, connection pooling is about a technical 
architecture whilst SaaS is really a pricing model.  You can adopt a SaaS 
pricing model on an in house application just as you can adopt a conventional 
user licensing model on an application that is hosted/in the cloud.

If you are implementing a true SaaS pricing model, so the customers pay per 
transaction or per some other metric, and you want to pay for your U2 licenses 
on the same metric then you need to talk to Rocket or your distributor if you 
are outside the US.  It is almost impossible to have an 'off the shelf' pricing 
model for this environment because the metrics you use and the software you 
need to back it up will vary, particularly if the demand is going to be 
seasonal.  But talk about it with whoever you buy from.

George Land
APT Solutions Ltd
U2 UK Distributor



On 03/06/2012 07:22, "Robert Houben"  wrote:

> I should clarify my question.  What is the legality behind licensing a
> SaaS (or BPaaS) offering with a U2 system behind it?
>
> I believe at one point there were terms of use in the user license
> that made a SaaS implementation potentially impractical.
>
> BTW, believe it or not, providing Microsoft products in a SaaS
> environment is a violation of their license agreement, unless you get
> a special variant of their licenses (these raise the price
> significantly).  This is little known, and to date Microsoft has not
> been aggressive in enforcing it, but that apparently might be about to change.
>
> U2, to my knowledge requires a special type of network license if you
> are going to provide pooled connections of any sort (e.g. through a
> web server.) The special terms to look up seem to be "Connection
> Pooling" and "Concurrent User".  My initial read of the section
> describing these is that if I have potentially 2 million different
> users who may use my service through web-based connection pooling
> through the term of the license, (even if not concurrently), I must
> have licenses enough (2 million of them) to support this.  I copy the
> block of text at the bottom of this message from a copy of the license
> agreement that I have (possibly out of date - that's part of the question).  
> Their definition of Concurrent seems a bit odd...
>
> (BTW, I agree: I would *never* use an unprotected telnet session over
> the internet.  I would be inclined to have the U2 server hiding behind
> a good solid commercial grade web server.)
>
> "Connection Pooling (CP): Licensee is not authorized to enable or
> engage in Connection Pooling unless Licensee is able to count and
> acquire required Concurrent Session or Concurrent User entitlements
> covering all unique individuals or single, unique instances of a
> software application that might process transactions using the
> Program. CP session entitlements [ which would cover use by any and
> all unique individuals or unique single instances of softwar

Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread Wjhonson 

 

Surely Robert you know that courts understand that wording can be ambiguous.
If you really think some court is going to tell you you need 2 million 
licenses I think you're trying to make a case out of tissue


 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Robert Houben 
To: U2 Users List 
Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2012 7:35 am
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud


As usual this group is a wealth of information.  I think the "talk to Rocket" 
is 
the most useful thing.  Our OLE DB driver uses Microsofts OLE DB Resource 
Pooling (built into Windows) to pool.  Our other products provide built-in 
pooling. We've always told our U2 customers that they need to get connection 
pooling licenses.  The wording of the license agreements suggests that whoever 
wrote it did not understand how most applications use connection pooling.  I 
was 
curious if this had been cleared up.  Unfortunately, if anything goes wrong, 
unless you have something written to refer to, the actual wording of the 
license 
will be used by the courts.

Thank you,

Robert Houben
IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing Architecture
Chief Technology Officer
FusionWare Integration Corp.
p: 604-777-4254 x158
f: 604-608-5544
http://www.fwic.net
LinkedIn  Twitter  FaceBook



-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] 
On Behalf Of George Land
Sent: June-04-12 1:33 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

I think that there is quite a bit of confusion on different terms.

Firstly there is no problem in developing and hosting web based applications 
using U2, many of the successful U2 applications today are web based.  But 
since 
U2 is licensed per user what you can't do is simply have a small license that 
connection pools - in other words runs a few processes that listen for work 
from 
a large user base and services them.

Instead if you connection pool using Rocket's or your own technology then you 
need to buy connection pooling licenses.  Whilst this pricing model is 
different 
to Oracle and Microsoft it is also often less expensive, it all depends on the 
configuration of the system being implemented.

But that's different from SaaS, connection pooling is about a technical 
architecture whilst SaaS is really a pricing model.  You can adopt a SaaS 
pricing model on an in house application just as you can adopt a conventional 
user licensing model on an application that is hosted/in the cloud.

If you are implementing a true SaaS pricing model, so the customers pay per 
transaction or per some other metric, and you want to pay for your U2 licenses 
on the same metric then you need to talk to Rocket or your distributor if you 
are outside the US.  It is almost impossible to have an 'off the shelf' pricing 
model for this environment because the metrics you use and the software you 
need 
to back it up will vary, particularly if the demand is going to be seasonal.  
But talk about it with whoever you buy from.

George Land
APT Solutions Ltd
U2 UK Distributor



On 03/06/2012 07:22, "Robert Houben"  wrote:

> I should clarify my question.  What is the legality behind licensing a
> SaaS (or BPaaS) offering with a U2 system behind it?
>
> I believe at one point there were terms of use in the user license
> that made a SaaS implementation potentially impractical.
>
> BTW, believe it or not, providing Microsoft products in a SaaS
> environment is a violation of their license agreement, unless you get
> a special variant of their licenses (these raise the price
> significantly).  This is little known, and to date Microsoft has not
> been aggressive in enforcing it, but that apparently might be about to change.
>
> U2, to my knowledge requires a special type of network license if you
> are going to provide pooled connections of any sort (e.g. through a
> web server.) The special terms to look up seem to be "Connection
> Pooling" and "Concurrent User".  My initial read of the section
> describing these is that if I have potentially 2 million different
> users who may use my service through web-based connection pooling
> through the term of the license, (even if not concurrently), I must
> have licenses enough (2 million of them) to support this.  I copy the
> block of text at the bottom of this message from a copy of the license
> agreement that I have (possibly out of date - that's part of the question).  
Their definition of Concurrent seems a bit odd...
>
> (BTW, I agree: I would *never* use an unprotected telnet session over
> the internet.  I would be inclined to have the U2 server hiding behind
> a good solid commercial grade web server.)
>
> "Connection Pooling (CP): Licensee is not authorized to enable or
> engage in Connection Pooling u

Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread George Land 
If you are connection pooling without connection pooling licenses then the
most a court will do is rule that you need to buy those connection pool
licenses, they aren't going to tell you that you need 2 million licenses.


On 04/06/2012 15:58, "Wjhonson"  wrote:

> 
>  
> 
> Surely Robert you know that courts understand that wording can be ambiguous.
> If you really think some court is going to tell you you need 2 million
> licenses I think you're trying to make a case out of tissue
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Houben 
> To: U2 Users List 
> Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2012 7:35 am
> Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud
> 
> 
> As usual this group is a wealth of information.  I think the "talk to Rocket"
> is 
> the most useful thing.  Our OLE DB driver uses Microsofts OLE DB Resource
> Pooling (built into Windows) to pool.  Our other products provide built-in
> pooling. We've always told our U2 customers that they need to get connection
> pooling licenses.  The wording of the license agreements suggests that whoever
> wrote it did not understand how most applications use connection pooling.  I
> was 
> curious if this had been cleared up.  Unfortunately, if anything goes wrong,
> unless you have something written to refer to, the actual wording of the
> license 
> will be used by the courts.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Robert Houben
> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing Architecture
> Chief Technology Officer
> FusionWare Integration Corp.
> p: 604-777-4254 x158
> f: 604-608-5544
> http://www.fwic.net
> LinkedIn  Twitter  FaceBook
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org]
> On Behalf Of George Land
> Sent: June-04-12 1:33 AM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud
> 
> I think that there is quite a bit of confusion on different terms.
> 
> Firstly there is no problem in developing and hosting web based applications
> using U2, many of the successful U2 applications today are web based.  But
> since 
> U2 is licensed per user what you can't do is simply have a small license that
> connection pools - in other words runs a few processes that listen for work
> from 
> a large user base and services them.
> 
> Instead if you connection pool using Rocket's or your own technology then you
> need to buy connection pooling licenses.  Whilst this pricing model is
> different 
> to Oracle and Microsoft it is also often less expensive, it all depends on the
> configuration of the system being implemented.
> 
> But that's different from SaaS, connection pooling is about a technical
> architecture whilst SaaS is really a pricing model.  You can adopt a SaaS
> pricing model on an in house application just as you can adopt a conventional
> user licensing model on an application that is hosted/in the cloud.
> 
> If you are implementing a true SaaS pricing model, so the customers pay per
> transaction or per some other metric, and you want to pay for your U2 licenses
> on the same metric then you need to talk to Rocket or your distributor if you
> are outside the US.  It is almost impossible to have an 'off the shelf'
> pricing 
> model for this environment because the metrics you use and the software you
> need 
> to back it up will vary, particularly if the demand is going to be seasonal.
> But talk about it with whoever you buy from.
> 
> George Land
> APT Solutions Ltd
> U2 UK Distributor
> 
> 
> 
> On 03/06/2012 07:22, "Robert Houben"  wrote:
> 
>> I should clarify my question.  What is the legality behind licensing a
>> SaaS (or BPaaS) offering with a U2 system behind it?
>> 
>> I believe at one point there were terms of use in the user license
>> that made a SaaS implementation potentially impractical.
>> 
>> BTW, believe it or not, providing Microsoft products in a SaaS
>> environment is a violation of their license agreement, unless you get
>> a special variant of their licenses (these raise the price
>> significantly).  This is little known, and to date Microsoft has not
>> been aggressive in enforcing it, but that apparently might be about to
>> change.
>> 
>> U2, to my knowledge requires a special type of network license if you
>> are going to provide pooled connections of any sort (e.g. through a
>> web server.) The special terms to look up seem to be "Connection
>> Pooling" and "Concurrent User".  My initial read of the section
>> describing these is

Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread Robert Houben 
I understand all of this, but an ISV does not want a potential lawsuit, they 
want a license agreement (or options) that are clear, and the current one is 
not.  The wording suggests something quite unusual, and not at all what the 
industry expects, and is frankly ambiguous.  There are some very rich MV apps 
out there that could provide world-class SaaS offerings.  An ISV looking at 
options may not want to "tip their hand" even to a company like Rocket. If the 
license agreement leaves them unclear about the options, then they may move on 
in their search.

Note that not all MV vendors have a track record of being reasonable...

This is based on actual inquiries from customers of ours.  We like to be able 
to intelligently advise our customers, so I'm asking in order to remove the 
uncertainty.  Inquiring minds want to know... :)

So My understanding is this:   It is the opinion of the community that Rocket 
would cooperate with an ISV, but it would require talking to them, and getting 
their buy-in.

Thank you,
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of George Land
Sent: June-04-12 9:19 AM
To: U2 Users List
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

If you are connection pooling without connection pooling licenses then the most 
a court will do is rule that you need to buy those connection pool licenses, 
they aren't going to tell you that you need 2 million licenses.


On 04/06/2012 15:58, "Wjhonson"  wrote:

>
>
>
> Surely Robert you know that courts understand that wording can be ambiguous.
> If you really think some court is going to tell you you need 2 million
> licenses I think you're trying to make a case out of tissue
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Houben 
> To: U2 Users List 
> Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2012 7:35 am
> Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud
>
>
> As usual this group is a wealth of information.  I think the "talk to Rocket"
> is
> the most useful thing.  Our OLE DB driver uses Microsofts OLE DB
> Resource Pooling (built into Windows) to pool.  Our other products
> provide built-in pooling. We've always told our U2 customers that they
> need to get connection pooling licenses.  The wording of the license
> agreements suggests that whoever wrote it did not understand how most
> applications use connection pooling.  I was curious if this had been
> cleared up.  Unfortunately, if anything goes wrong, unless you have
> something written to refer to, the actual wording of the license will
> be used by the courts.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Robert Houben
> IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing
> Architecture Chief Technology Officer FusionWare Integration Corp.
> p: 604-777-4254 x158
> f: 604-608-5544
> http://www.fwic.net
> LinkedIn  Twitter  FaceBook
>
>
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org]
> On Behalf Of George Land
> Sent: June-04-12 1:33 AM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud
>
> I think that there is quite a bit of confusion on different terms.
>
> Firstly there is no problem in developing and hosting web based
> applications using U2, many of the successful U2 applications today
> are web based.  But since
> U2 is licensed per user what you can't do is simply have a small
> license that connection pools - in other words runs a few processes
> that listen for work from a large user base and services them.
>
> Instead if you connection pool using Rocket's or your own technology
> then you need to buy connection pooling licenses.  Whilst this pricing
> model is different to Oracle and Microsoft it is also often less
> expensive, it all depends on the configuration of the system being
> implemented.
>
> But that's different from SaaS, connection pooling is about a
> technical architecture whilst SaaS is really a pricing model.  You can
> adopt a SaaS pricing model on an in house application just as you can
> adopt a conventional user licensing model on an application that is hosted/in 
> the cloud.
>
> If you are implementing a true SaaS pricing model, so the customers
> pay per transaction or per some other metric, and you want to pay for
> your U2 licenses on the same metric then you need to talk to Rocket or
> your distributor if you are outside the US.  It is almost impossible to have 
> an 'off the shelf'
> pricing
> model for this environment because the metrics you use and the
> software you need to back it up will vary, particularly if the demand
> is going to be seasonal.
> But talk about it

Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread Wjhonson 

Yes.
And I have to say, that contrary to some of my peers, the majority of the 
income does not arise from the sale of seats, which are relatively cheap.
It arises from the sale of consulting services, which can run a seat per hour, 
if you get my drift.
And the sale of training, seminars, analysis, sell-ups and so on.

They want more clients, and I'm sure they will do what it takes to not piss 
them off.
However, as you probably know, the number of Rocket employees who monitor this 
list is woefully small.  One or two.
The ones you need, don't.

So make the phone call, get the ball rolling.








-Original Message-
From: Robert Houben 
To: U2 Users List 
Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2012 9:37 am
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud


I understand all of this, but an ISV does not want a potential lawsuit, they 
ant a license agreement (or options) that are clear, and the current one is 
ot.  The wording suggests something quite unusual, and not at all what the 
ndustry expects, and is frankly ambiguous.  There are some very rich MV apps 
ut there that could provide world-class SaaS offerings.  An ISV looking at 
ptions may not want to "tip their hand" even to a company like Rocket. If the 
icense agreement leaves them unclear about the options, then they may move on 
n their search.
Note that not all MV vendors have a track record of being reasonable...
This is based on actual inquiries from customers of ours.  We like to be able 
to 
ntelligently advise our customers, so I'm asking in order to remove the 
ncertainty.  Inquiring minds want to know... :)
So My understanding is this:   It is the opinion of the community that Rocket 
ould cooperate with an ISV, but it would require talking to them, and getting 
heir buy-in.
Thank you,
Original Message-
rom: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 
[mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] 
n Behalf Of George Land
ent: June-04-12 9:19 AM
o: U2 Users List
ubject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud
If you are connection pooling without connection pooling licenses then the most 
 court will do is rule that you need to buy those connection pool licenses, 
hey aren't going to tell you that you need 2 million licenses.

n 04/06/2012 15:58, "Wjhonson"  wrote:
>


 Surely Robert you know that courts understand that wording can be ambiguous.
 If you really think some court is going to tell you you need 2 million
 licenses I think you're trying to make a case out of tissue








 -Original Message-
 From: Robert Houben 
 To: U2 Users List 
 Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2012 7:35 am
 Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud


 As usual this group is a wealth of information.  I think the "talk to Rocket"
 is
 the most useful thing.  Our OLE DB driver uses Microsofts OLE DB
 Resource Pooling (built into Windows) to pool.  Our other products
 provide built-in pooling. We've always told our U2 customers that they
 need to get connection pooling licenses.  The wording of the license
 agreements suggests that whoever wrote it did not understand how most
 applications use connection pooling.  I was curious if this had been
 cleared up.  Unfortunately, if anything goes wrong, unless you have
 something written to refer to, the actual wording of the license will
 be used by the courts.

 Thank you,

 Robert Houben
 IBM Certified Solution Advisor and Architect - Cloud Computing
 Architecture Chief Technology Officer FusionWare Integration Corp.
 p: 604-777-4254 x158
 f: 604-608-5544
 http://www.fwic.net
 LinkedIn  Twitter  FaceBook



 -Original Message-
 From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
 [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org]
 On Behalf Of George Land
 Sent: June-04-12 1:33 AM
 To: U2 Users List
 Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

 I think that there is quite a bit of confusion on different terms.

 Firstly there is no problem in developing and hosting web based
 applications using U2, many of the successful U2 applications today
 are web based.  But since
 U2 is licensed per user what you can't do is simply have a small
 license that connection pools - in other words runs a few processes
 that listen for work from a large user base and services them.

 Instead if you connection pool using Rocket's or your own technology
 then you need to buy connection pooling licenses.  Whilst this pricing
 model is different to Oracle and Microsoft it is also often less
 expensive, it all depends on the configuration of the system being
 implemented.

 But that's different from SaaS, connection pooling is about a
 technical architecture whilst SaaS is really a pricing model.  You can
 adopt a SaaS pricing model on an in house application just as you can
 adopt a conventional user licensing model on an application that is hosted/in 
he cloud.

 If you are implementing a true SaaS pricing model, so the customers
 pay per transaction or per some o

Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread Robert Porter 
And they'd never give you $2,860,000 for not realizing coffee is hot and 
spilling it on your lap... Yes, I know it was re-done for an undisclosed 
amount. My point is that relying on the court system to be reasonable when it 
has repeatedly been absurd in their "judgement" (or lack thereof) is 
short-sighted.
 
Rob


>>> George Land  6/4/2012 11:19 AM >>>
If you are connection pooling without connection pooling licenses then the
most a court will do is rule that you need to buy those connection pool
licenses, they aren't going to tell you that you need 2 million licenses.
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Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-04 Thread Wjhonson 

That was a jury award.
It's common knowledge that juries can be swayed to grant millions of dollars to 
bloated greedy record labels, or people who got cancer after smoking three 
packs a day for 20 years.








-Original Message-
From: Robert Porter 
To: U2 Users List 
Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:21 am
Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud


And they'd never give you $2,860,000 for not realizing coffee is hot and 
pilling it on your lap... Yes, I know it was re-done for an undisclosed amount. 
y point is that relying on the court system to be reasonable when it has 
epeatedly been absurd in their "judgement" (or lack thereof) is short-sighted.

ob

>> George Land  6/4/2012 11:19 AM >>>
f you are connection pooling without connection pooling licenses then the
ost a court will do is rule that you need to buy those connection pool
icenses, they aren't going to tell you that you need 2 million licenses.

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Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud

2012-06-06 Thread Wols Lists 
On 04/06/12 18:27, Wjhonson wrote:
> 
> That was a jury award.
> It's common knowledge that juries can be swayed to grant millions of dollars 
> to bloated greedy record labels, or people who got cancer after smoking three 
> packs a day for 20 years.
> 
> 
To which I'll add, McD's had had SEVERAL lawsuits already over serving
"unreasonably hot" coffee.

I'll also add that the victim suffered potentially lethal burns. At
WORST, hot food should be served at a temperature that can cause 1st
degree (ie minor) burns. Defined as "burns that will damage the skin".
This victim suffered third degree burns - defined as "goes through the
skin to the muscles underneath". And she needed a fair bit of "plastic
surgery" to repair the damage. Not cosmetic surgery. Life-saving
reconstructive surgery.

So in this particular case, the legal system did actually work
reasonably well (by US standards, at least). It couldn't have happened
in the UK - the McD's would have been shut down and the franchisees
jailed for negligence long before this had a chance to happen.

Cheers,
Wol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Robert Porter 
> To: U2 Users List 
> Sent: Mon, Jun 4, 2012 10:21 am
> Subject: Re: [U2] Universe/Unidata in the Cloud
> 
> 
> And they'd never give you $2,860,000 for not realizing coffee is hot and 
> pilling it on your lap... Yes, I know it was re-done for an undisclosed 
> amount. 
> y point is that relying on the court system to be reasonable when it has 
> epeatedly been absurd in their "judgement" (or lack thereof) is short-sighted.
> 
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