Re: This needs attention
On 28/05/14 14:58, Brian Murray wrote: I personally try to modify bug titles such that they are more specific as I learn more information about why the particular reporter had the problem. For me this sounds like an important step when triaging bugs. On 28/05/14 16:34, Scott Kitterman wrote: > For the record, you all have managed to convince me the signal to noise ratio > on this list is too low and I'm unsubscribing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemawashi -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
For the record, you all have managed to convince me the signal to noise ratio on this list is too low and I'm unsubscribing. Scott K On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 09:24:50 Nio Wiklund wrote: > Hi Gabor and Phill, > > I add another +1 for putting into words some of the frustration I have > seen whereby one person continually cancels out what is a clear issue > for many others. > > Best regards > Nio > > 2014-05-27 09:03, Phill Whiteside skrev: > > Hi Gabor, > > > > I have kept silent on this issue, but I give you a huge +1 for putting > > into > > words some of the frustration I have seen whereby one person continually > > cancels out what is a clear issue for many others. > > > > Regards, > > > > Phill. > > > > On 27 May 2014 07:35, Gabor Toth wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> I feel like I need to say something to this conversation as I found this > >> subject quite disturbing. As part of my work I install Ubuntu systems to > >> customers and use Ubuntu for long years now, having been through almost > >> all > >> distros of Ubuntu. I have done some testing too and helped on bug squad > >> some. These days did not have that much time to contribute, but I do my > >> best as you guys. > >> > >> While the discussion on this forum seems to be a lot of back and forth > >> this > >> is nothing to what is going on on the actual bug report and forum there. > >> > >> Reading it through I do not have a doubt in my mind that this IS an > >> actual > >> > >> bug even though I am not effected by it. If one does a dist upgrade and > >> his system was working before and after the upgrade going through without > >> any warning it lives him with an unusable (even though fixable) system it > >> is something you would not expect dist upgrade to do - thus it is a bug, > >> per definition of a bug. A part of a system does something that you do > >> not > >> expect it to do and of course it is quite high priority since en entire > >> system becomes broken and it apparently effects multiple users. > >> > >> There is something else quite disturbing though. There seem to be one > >> person in the programmer side of the team that keeps disagreeing with the > >> everyone else and is able to push her own opinion (which seems very wrong > >> by the way) in front of the entire community. When you look at the bug > >> report the status is being set back and forth and that one person > >> apparently just "cancelling" this bug while it is reported by a number of > >> others. > >> > >> This very point is the main concern on this whole thing. If Ubuntu is a > >> community, which it should be, then this should not ever happen. One > >> person's opinion should not over rule everyone else's opinion. I am not > >> sure who she is, but this whole process was not something that you could > >> call an executive decision. Perhaps she had no capacity, knowledge, or > >> interest to fix this bug and thus wanted to put it under the carpet for > >> whatever reason. And the reason does not even matter here! It is a > >> community and this would be a point when others could step in an offer > >> their expertise and time and do fix the bug. However with her actions > >> she > >> did not only stepped down, but also stopped others to work on it since > >> she > >> simple "cancelled" this bug out entirely. And this is not some little > >> design point or some minor program we are talking about but either grub > >> or > >> the dist upgrade process that has a functionality which should not be > >> that > >> way to be able called "workable". > >> > >> Per what I see something is working if it requires no attention in the > >> future and it just does what it should. This is per definition > >> "working". > >> > >> Anything else is a bug. > >> > >> Now, if I install an Ubuntu system, say on a customers computer, and make > >> that system a workable system (which sometimes might require some custom > >> tuning due to no out of box support for some sort of hardware) then I > >> would > >> think that this is a workable system and the user, with no knowledge of > >> command prompt, not knowing what grub was and if thinking that dpkg was > >> some special ice cream should not be able to break a fully workable > >> system > >> just by clicking on a button of dist upgrade and entering her own > >> password. > >> And again, in some of the mentioned cases there was not even any manual > >> config and handling of the system but was a clear automated install > >> broken > >> by a simple upgrade. > >> > >> I personally think that we as a community need to look at this issue and > >> I > >> am not talking about the bug itself (which needs to be fixed too) but the > >> issue of one person's opinion could cancel out (and thus enrage) other > >> people of the community with living an issue hanging in the air with no > >> apparent way of solving the different opinions in any way shape or form. > >> > >> It should not be that who has a higher authority
Re: This needs attention
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 09:05:40PM +0200, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: > On 27/05/14 16:56, C de-Avillez wrote: > >A technical opinion on a technical issue will rule out every other > >opinion until proved wrong. > > Summarizing: for confirming this bug, you need to provide a series > of steps that will break GRUB consistently. > > Till then the appropriate status for the report is "opinion". I'm not sure that is how I would have summarized Carlos's email. One particular take away from this issue is that not every symptom of a problem, e.g. "error: symbol 'grub_term_highlight_color' not found", is due to the same reason. Because of this I personally try to modify bug titles such that they are more specific as I learn more information about why the particular reporter had the problem. So if I see an ubuntu-release-upgrader bug titled "Can't upgrade to 14.04", I will work on changing the title so it describes the particular reporter's issue. Hopefully, this prevents multiple people who can't upgrade from all commenting on the same bug report and also thinking the same fix will work for them. Additionally, another bit of advice is that although it is more work (especially if you can't use ubuntu-bug) it is best to open a bug report for your specific issue rather than assuming that another bug is exactly the same as yours. However, you might add a comment to a bug similar to yours saying "I think I am experiencing the same issue in bug 12345". -- Brian Murray Ubuntu Bug Master signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
All right, what I see we went onto the track of working together to handle the bug rather than fighting each other. That is great! I personally haven't encountered this particular bug, but I'm glad it is being handled. If I can be of any assistance please let me know. Ml, Gabor Toth gabor...@gmail.com Sent from Nexus 7 On May 28, 2014 5:21 AM, "chris hermansen" wrote: > Nicholas and list, > > On May 27, 2014 6:09 PM, "Nicholas Skaggs" > wrote: > > > > On 05/27/2014 03:51 PM, C de-Avillez wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> On 27/05/14 16:56, C de-Avillez wrote: > > A technical opinion on a technical issue will rule out every other > opinion until proved wrong. > >>> > >>> > >>> Summarizing: for confirming this bug, you need to provide a series of > steps > >>> that will break GRUB consistently. > >>> > >>> Till then the appropriate status for the report is "opinion". > >>> > >> Actually, even then I would rather have a new bug opened. This one is > >> done and gone :-) > >> > > Well, I've been under the weather and traveling and didn't see this post > until now. Many thanks to those level-headed folks who stepped into the > discussion here. > > > > As to the bug, if it is affecting you, the best thing you can do is to > recreate the problem. After the problem has happened again, use ubuntu-bug > to file a new bug and describe how you arrived at the problem. Try and > simplify creating the problem to isolate what is triggering it. This is all > work you as an end-user can do that greatly helps a developer actually > solve the bug. The next time a bug of yours is marked as invalid or > opinion, take that as an oppurtunity to file a more complete bug report > that will allow someone to properly confirm it; learn from it. Instead of > attacking a developer, ask someone to help you understand what data is > missing / needed and how you can obtain it. Stay constructive! > > Not to gainsay Nicholas or anyone else but one important thing to keep in > mind here is that this problem / configuration error / whatever BORKS the > machine, if I am reading correctly. > > Ie no friendly Ubuntu environment to run ubuntu-bug or any of those other > great diagnostic tools. > > So in this kind of situation when someone is panicking because their newly > upgraded computer now fails to boot, it seems to me worthwhile to have some > kind of help to get them through the rough patch. > > Just my 2¢ worth. > > > > Finally, it's important to heed the advice of those who can help you. As > Scott side, software can be furstrating, and working within a community can > be too. Let's keep the CoC in mind; we are all here because we care about > making ubuntu better. > > > > +1 to that. > -- > Ubuntu-quality mailing list > Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality > -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
Nicholas and list, On May 27, 2014 6:09 PM, "Nicholas Skaggs" wrote: > > On 05/27/2014 03:51 PM, C de-Avillez wrote: >> >> On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella >> wrote: >>> >>> On 27/05/14 16:56, C de-Avillez wrote: A technical opinion on a technical issue will rule out every other opinion until proved wrong. >>> >>> >>> Summarizing: for confirming this bug, you need to provide a series of steps >>> that will break GRUB consistently. >>> >>> Till then the appropriate status for the report is "opinion". >>> >> Actually, even then I would rather have a new bug opened. This one is >> done and gone :-) >> > Well, I've been under the weather and traveling and didn't see this post until now. Many thanks to those level-headed folks who stepped into the discussion here. > > As to the bug, if it is affecting you, the best thing you can do is to recreate the problem. After the problem has happened again, use ubuntu-bug to file a new bug and describe how you arrived at the problem. Try and simplify creating the problem to isolate what is triggering it. This is all work you as an end-user can do that greatly helps a developer actually solve the bug. The next time a bug of yours is marked as invalid or opinion, take that as an oppurtunity to file a more complete bug report that will allow someone to properly confirm it; learn from it. Instead of attacking a developer, ask someone to help you understand what data is missing / needed and how you can obtain it. Stay constructive! Not to gainsay Nicholas or anyone else but one important thing to keep in mind here is that this problem / configuration error / whatever BORKS the machine, if I am reading correctly. Ie no friendly Ubuntu environment to run ubuntu-bug or any of those other great diagnostic tools. So in this kind of situation when someone is panicking because their newly upgraded computer now fails to boot, it seems to me worthwhile to have some kind of help to get them through the rough patch. Just my 2¢ worth. > > Finally, it's important to heed the advice of those who can help you. As Scott side, software can be furstrating, and working within a community can be too. Let's keep the CoC in mind; we are all here because we care about making ubuntu better. > +1 to that. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
On 05/27/2014 03:51 PM, C de-Avillez wrote: On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: On 27/05/14 16:56, C de-Avillez wrote: A technical opinion on a technical issue will rule out every other opinion until proved wrong. Summarizing: for confirming this bug, you need to provide a series of steps that will break GRUB consistently. Till then the appropriate status for the report is "opinion". Actually, even then I would rather have a new bug opened. This one is done and gone :-) Well, I've been under the weather and traveling and didn't see this post until now. Many thanks to those level-headed folks who stepped into the discussion here. As to the bug, if it is affecting you, the best thing you can do is to recreate the problem. After the problem has happened again, use ubuntu-bug to file a new bug and describe how you arrived at the problem. Try and simplify creating the problem to isolate what is triggering it. This is all work you as an end-user can do that greatly helps a developer actually solve the bug. The next time a bug of yours is marked as invalid or opinion, take that as an oppurtunity to file a more complete bug report that will allow someone to properly confirm it; learn from it. Instead of attacking a developer, ask someone to help you understand what data is missing / needed and how you can obtain it. Stay constructive! Finally, it's important to heed the advice of those who can help you. As Scott side, software can be furstrating, and working within a community can be too. Let's keep the CoC in mind; we are all here because we care about making ubuntu better. Nicholas -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: > On 27/05/14 16:56, C de-Avillez wrote: >> >> A technical opinion on a technical issue will rule out every other >> opinion until proved wrong. > > > Summarizing: for confirming this bug, you need to provide a series of steps > that will break GRUB consistently. > > Till then the appropriate status for the report is "opinion". > Actually, even then I would rather have a new bug opened. This one is done and gone :-) -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
On 27/05/14 16:56, C de-Avillez wrote: A technical opinion on a technical issue will rule out every other opinion until proved wrong. Summarizing: for confirming this bug, you need to provide a series of steps that will break GRUB consistently. Till then the appropriate status for the report is "opinion". Regards. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 5:57 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote: > El 27/05/14 00:19, Matteo Sisti Sette escribió: > >> If you care about ubuntu "quality" you need to have a look at this: >> https://bugs.launchpad.net/__ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/__1289977 > > > Brian; as Ubuntu Bug Master; could you please give your opinion in this > report, so everybody can stop this long argument? Answered on my reply to Gabor. Summary: * the original issue was shown to have been caused by reconfiguring only one of multiple Grub installs; * users kept on forcing the issue, although requested again and again to open new bugs. * what could be done is edit the bug's description and add a summary. -- ..hggdh.. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
(I am using Gabor's email to answer a series of points in many emails. I am just using his email because it is much clearer, complete, and nice than some of the previous emails.) On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 1:35 AM, Gabor Toth wrote: > Hi, > > I feel like I need to say something to this conversation as I found this > subject quite disturbing. As part of my work I install Ubuntu systems to > customers and use Ubuntu for long years now, having been through almost all > distros of Ubuntu. I have done some testing too and helped on bug squad > some. These days did not have that much time to contribute, but I do my > best as you guys. I also find the OP's comments quite disturbing. I am also curious: have you had this issue yourself? I hear around that this is a critical bug, that the skies will fall if it is not fixed, that everybody is affected by it, etc. But I personally do not know anyone that has been affected, and I have not had this issue myself, on all of my 26 upgrades to Trusty. And yes, I do have some systems with more than one drive; but none with other OSes installed. > > While the discussion on this forum seems to be a lot of back and forth this > is nothing to what is going on on the actual bug report and forum there. > Reading it through I do not have a doubt in my mind that this IS an actual > bug even though I am not effected by it. I beg to differ. If -- and this is based *only* on the original issue in the bug -- the user had two different installs of Grub on two different disk drives, and (for whatever reason, however it may have happened) the Grub configuration got mixed/lost/confused, *then* this (original) error will pop up. > If one does a dist upgrade and > his system was working before and after the upgrade going through without > any warning it lives him with an unusable (even though fixable) system it > is something you would not expect dist upgrade to do - thus it is a bug, > per definition of a bug. No. Code changes. If (and, again, discussing the *original* issue in the bug) you had multiple installs of one thing, and the system does *not* know bout these multiple installs, then it is not a bug. If is an user error. In this case, it was caused by a stale copy of Grub being run. If what I just said does not apply, then it is a *different* bug. >A part of a system does something that you do not > expect it to do and of course it is quite high priority since en entire > system becomes broken and it apparently effects multiple users. > > There is something else quite disturbing though. There seem to be one > person in the programmer side of the team that keeps disagreeing with the > everyone else and is able to push her own opinion (which seems very wrong > by the way) in front of the entire community. Perhaps because he knows what he was asking for and doing, as opposed from almost every other commenter in the bug. Please keep in mind that a bug is a *technical* report about an error/failure. It will be looked at by *technical* people. As such, It HAS to have technical data. > When you look at the bug > report the status is being set back and forth and that one person > apparently just "cancelling" this bug while it is reported by a number of > others. And stating why. And being disregarded. I personally would have put the bug as OPINION a long time ago. The *only* thing that may still be done is explain, in the bug description, WHY, and WHAT can be done. Let me try to clear some (possible) misconceptions about bugs, and how we deal with them (both for triaging, and for fixing). The first two are *dogmas*. We will not change them. * one issue per (bug) report * one (bug) report per issue This means a Launchpad bug should describe one, and only one, issue. If multiple issues are shown in one single bug report, then they HAVE to be broken down to different Launchpad bugs. This is not required because we are mean (developers|triagers), but because we need to be able to backtrack a fix to a bug (and vice-versa). If the fix introduces a (new) failure, then we need to be able to pinpoint it to the correct bug report. This would not happen if we have multiple issues per bug. In this specific bug, we have at least two different issues being conflated; we also have the original reporter's issue being shown as a failure (user's, or perhaps grub's); a way to fix it was provided early on (and it should be clear that the issue came about mostly because, at some point in time, the user used the wrong command sequence to update Grub). As such, the original report *has* to be closed. Many times throughout the hundreds of comments Phillip stated that. I will also note that I personally will tend to trust Phillip: he usually knows what he is talking about and, certainly, he knows more than I do on Grub. * When you open a bug, please add the (minimum) required data. Ideally, *NEVER* open a bug by hand (almost all of the opened-by-hand bugs miss the minimum required data). Phill
Re: This needs attention
Hi Gabor and Phill, I add another +1 for putting into words some of the frustration I have seen whereby one person continually cancels out what is a clear issue for many others. Best regards Nio 2014-05-27 09:03, Phill Whiteside skrev: > Hi Gabor, > > I have kept silent on this issue, but I give you a huge +1 for putting into > words some of the frustration I have seen whereby one person continually > cancels out what is a clear issue for many others. > > Regards, > > Phill. > > > On 27 May 2014 07:35, Gabor Toth wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I feel like I need to say something to this conversation as I found this >> subject quite disturbing. As part of my work I install Ubuntu systems to >> customers and use Ubuntu for long years now, having been through almost all >> distros of Ubuntu. I have done some testing too and helped on bug squad >> some. These days did not have that much time to contribute, but I do my >> best as you guys. >> >> While the discussion on this forum seems to be a lot of back and forth this >> is nothing to what is going on on the actual bug report and forum there. >> Reading it through I do not have a doubt in my mind that this IS an actual >> bug even though I am not effected by it. If one does a dist upgrade and >> his system was working before and after the upgrade going through without >> any warning it lives him with an unusable (even though fixable) system it >> is something you would not expect dist upgrade to do - thus it is a bug, >> per definition of a bug. A part of a system does something that you do not >> expect it to do and of course it is quite high priority since en entire >> system becomes broken and it apparently effects multiple users. >> >> There is something else quite disturbing though. There seem to be one >> person in the programmer side of the team that keeps disagreeing with the >> everyone else and is able to push her own opinion (which seems very wrong >> by the way) in front of the entire community. When you look at the bug >> report the status is being set back and forth and that one person >> apparently just "cancelling" this bug while it is reported by a number of >> others. >> >> This very point is the main concern on this whole thing. If Ubuntu is a >> community, which it should be, then this should not ever happen. One >> person's opinion should not over rule everyone else's opinion. I am not >> sure who she is, but this whole process was not something that you could >> call an executive decision. Perhaps she had no capacity, knowledge, or >> interest to fix this bug and thus wanted to put it under the carpet for >> whatever reason. And the reason does not even matter here! It is a >> community and this would be a point when others could step in an offer >> their expertise and time and do fix the bug. However with her actions she >> did not only stepped down, but also stopped others to work on it since she >> simple "cancelled" this bug out entirely. And this is not some little >> design point or some minor program we are talking about but either grub or >> the dist upgrade process that has a functionality which should not be that >> way to be able called "workable". >> >> Per what I see something is working if it requires no attention in the >> future and it just does what it should. This is per definition "working". >> Anything else is a bug. >> >> Now, if I install an Ubuntu system, say on a customers computer, and make >> that system a workable system (which sometimes might require some custom >> tuning due to no out of box support for some sort of hardware) then I would >> think that this is a workable system and the user, with no knowledge of >> command prompt, not knowing what grub was and if thinking that dpkg was >> some special ice cream should not be able to break a fully workable system >> just by clicking on a button of dist upgrade and entering her own password. >> And again, in some of the mentioned cases there was not even any manual >> config and handling of the system but was a clear automated install broken >> by a simple upgrade. >> >> I personally think that we as a community need to look at this issue and I >> am not talking about the bug itself (which needs to be fixed too) but the >> issue of one person's opinion could cancel out (and thus enrage) other >> people of the community with living an issue hanging in the air with no >> apparent way of solving the different opinions in any way shape or form. >> It should not be that who has a higher authority that is right no matter >> how wrong she is. >> >> Is there anyone at canonical that can take a look at this? Seems a >> correction of this particular programmer needed on dealing with community >> raised bugs specially because she won't be able to work like this with the >> rest of the guys if she does not let them propose solutions and fixes but >> trying to silence them. >> >> With Kind Regards, >> >> Gabor Toth >> >> Phone: +45-2163-4983 >> Skype: g
Re: This needs attention
Hi Gabor, I have kept silent on this issue, but I give you a huge +1 for putting into words some of the frustration I have seen whereby one person continually cancels out what is a clear issue for many others. Regards, Phill. On 27 May 2014 07:35, Gabor Toth wrote: > Hi, > > I feel like I need to say something to this conversation as I found this > subject quite disturbing. As part of my work I install Ubuntu systems to > customers and use Ubuntu for long years now, having been through almost all > distros of Ubuntu. I have done some testing too and helped on bug squad > some. These days did not have that much time to contribute, but I do my > best as you guys. > > While the discussion on this forum seems to be a lot of back and forth this > is nothing to what is going on on the actual bug report and forum there. > Reading it through I do not have a doubt in my mind that this IS an actual > bug even though I am not effected by it. If one does a dist upgrade and > his system was working before and after the upgrade going through without > any warning it lives him with an unusable (even though fixable) system it > is something you would not expect dist upgrade to do - thus it is a bug, > per definition of a bug. A part of a system does something that you do not > expect it to do and of course it is quite high priority since en entire > system becomes broken and it apparently effects multiple users. > > There is something else quite disturbing though. There seem to be one > person in the programmer side of the team that keeps disagreeing with the > everyone else and is able to push her own opinion (which seems very wrong > by the way) in front of the entire community. When you look at the bug > report the status is being set back and forth and that one person > apparently just "cancelling" this bug while it is reported by a number of > others. > > This very point is the main concern on this whole thing. If Ubuntu is a > community, which it should be, then this should not ever happen. One > person's opinion should not over rule everyone else's opinion. I am not > sure who she is, but this whole process was not something that you could > call an executive decision. Perhaps she had no capacity, knowledge, or > interest to fix this bug and thus wanted to put it under the carpet for > whatever reason. And the reason does not even matter here! It is a > community and this would be a point when others could step in an offer > their expertise and time and do fix the bug. However with her actions she > did not only stepped down, but also stopped others to work on it since she > simple "cancelled" this bug out entirely. And this is not some little > design point or some minor program we are talking about but either grub or > the dist upgrade process that has a functionality which should not be that > way to be able called "workable". > > Per what I see something is working if it requires no attention in the > future and it just does what it should. This is per definition "working". > Anything else is a bug. > > Now, if I install an Ubuntu system, say on a customers computer, and make > that system a workable system (which sometimes might require some custom > tuning due to no out of box support for some sort of hardware) then I would > think that this is a workable system and the user, with no knowledge of > command prompt, not knowing what grub was and if thinking that dpkg was > some special ice cream should not be able to break a fully workable system > just by clicking on a button of dist upgrade and entering her own password. > And again, in some of the mentioned cases there was not even any manual > config and handling of the system but was a clear automated install broken > by a simple upgrade. > > I personally think that we as a community need to look at this issue and I > am not talking about the bug itself (which needs to be fixed too) but the > issue of one person's opinion could cancel out (and thus enrage) other > people of the community with living an issue hanging in the air with no > apparent way of solving the different opinions in any way shape or form. > It should not be that who has a higher authority that is right no matter > how wrong she is. > > Is there anyone at canonical that can take a look at this? Seems a > correction of this particular programmer needed on dealing with community > raised bugs specially because she won't be able to work like this with the > rest of the guys if she does not let them propose solutions and fixes but > trying to silence them. > > With Kind Regards, > > Gabor Toth > > Phone: +45-2163-4983 > Skype: gabor.me > > Copenhagen, Denmark > > > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 5:42 AM, Scott Kitterman >wrote: > > > > > -- > > Ubuntu-quality mailing list > > Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com > > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality > > > -- > Ubuntu-quality mailing list > Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubun
Re: This needs attention
Hi, I feel like I need to say something to this conversation as I found this subject quite disturbing. As part of my work I install Ubuntu systems to customers and use Ubuntu for long years now, having been through almost all distros of Ubuntu. I have done some testing too and helped on bug squad some. These days did not have that much time to contribute, but I do my best as you guys. While the discussion on this forum seems to be a lot of back and forth this is nothing to what is going on on the actual bug report and forum there. Reading it through I do not have a doubt in my mind that this IS an actual bug even though I am not effected by it. If one does a dist upgrade and his system was working before and after the upgrade going through without any warning it lives him with an unusable (even though fixable) system it is something you would not expect dist upgrade to do - thus it is a bug, per definition of a bug. A part of a system does something that you do not expect it to do and of course it is quite high priority since en entire system becomes broken and it apparently effects multiple users. There is something else quite disturbing though. There seem to be one person in the programmer side of the team that keeps disagreeing with the everyone else and is able to push her own opinion (which seems very wrong by the way) in front of the entire community. When you look at the bug report the status is being set back and forth and that one person apparently just "cancelling" this bug while it is reported by a number of others. This very point is the main concern on this whole thing. If Ubuntu is a community, which it should be, then this should not ever happen. One person's opinion should not over rule everyone else's opinion. I am not sure who she is, but this whole process was not something that you could call an executive decision. Perhaps she had no capacity, knowledge, or interest to fix this bug and thus wanted to put it under the carpet for whatever reason. And the reason does not even matter here! It is a community and this would be a point when others could step in an offer their expertise and time and do fix the bug. However with her actions she did not only stepped down, but also stopped others to work on it since she simple "cancelled" this bug out entirely. And this is not some little design point or some minor program we are talking about but either grub or the dist upgrade process that has a functionality which should not be that way to be able called "workable". Per what I see something is working if it requires no attention in the future and it just does what it should. This is per definition "working". Anything else is a bug. Now, if I install an Ubuntu system, say on a customers computer, and make that system a workable system (which sometimes might require some custom tuning due to no out of box support for some sort of hardware) then I would think that this is a workable system and the user, with no knowledge of command prompt, not knowing what grub was and if thinking that dpkg was some special ice cream should not be able to break a fully workable system just by clicking on a button of dist upgrade and entering her own password. And again, in some of the mentioned cases there was not even any manual config and handling of the system but was a clear automated install broken by a simple upgrade. I personally think that we as a community need to look at this issue and I am not talking about the bug itself (which needs to be fixed too) but the issue of one person's opinion could cancel out (and thus enrage) other people of the community with living an issue hanging in the air with no apparent way of solving the different opinions in any way shape or form. It should not be that who has a higher authority that is right no matter how wrong she is. Is there anyone at canonical that can take a look at this? Seems a correction of this particular programmer needed on dealing with community raised bugs specially because she won't be able to work like this with the rest of the guys if she does not let them propose solutions and fixes but trying to silence them. With Kind Regards, Gabor Toth Phone: +45-2163-4983 Skype: gabor.me Copenhagen, Denmark On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 5:42 AM, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > -- > Ubuntu-quality mailing list > Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality > -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
-- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
But, of course, with the bug being reported before release, it may have
been in the release notes that no body reads, But it could have been if any
of the release team actually checked :D
It is an interesting bug as people try to say 'It is user error' when the
the users are saying 'it's dev error'... bottom line? it's a mess up on
grub. It has the commands and it can not handle them. if it says "sudo
grub." Then it is grub, end of story for those
trying to wrigglle out of it. grup is in charge,
Regards,
Phill.
On 27 May 2014 02:03, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> You can't quit can you?
>
> Many developers, such as Phillip (and myself) are volunteers and are doing
> our
> best to help make Ubuntu better. Hostile behavior such as yours makes
> Ubuntu
> development a lot less enticing as a way to spend my free time. It's also
> highly correlated in my experience with people who can be safely ignored.
>
> Not only is it counter productive to your immediate goal of getting a bug
> looked at (I actually looked at the bug in question and gave up because it
> was
> too painful to read), but it compromises you ability more generally to be
> an
> effective member of the Ubuntu community.
>
> http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/conduct is not just a set of
> empty
> platitudes. It's an essential set of guidance to making a global scale
> project such as Ubuntu work. Please review it and consider how to align
> your
> interactions in the Ubuntu community with it. I know this is not easy
> sometimes (I find it a challenge frequently) but both you and the project
> will
> be better off if you do.
>
> Scott K
>
> On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 02:34:46 Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
> > Ok,
> > I'm calm and relaxed now. Thanks.
> >
> > Sorry for the offensive language. It's just a matter of replacing a word
> > or two in my email and the meaning remains intact, though.
> >
> > If you have a look at the recent discussion in the bug report and
> > especially the changes made by Phillip Susi, I think you will understand
> > the reasons why I (together with one or two more users) felt enraged.
> >
> > By the way, I had already got my broken system fixed (thanks to the
> > contribution of other affected users who took the time to report the
> > issue and describe the steps they took to revert the damage) and I now
> > know what to do the next time the bug strikes me; so, I could have just
> > looked away and forgotten about it. If I spent my time replying to the
> > bug report and writing to this list to draw the insane - whops, sorry
> > again - incorrect - behavior of a developer/triager to your attention,
> > it was in an effort to do my best to prevent other thousands of users
> > from falling victim of the same issue.
> >
> > Regards,
> > m.
> >
> > On 27/05/14 02:03, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > > If I may make a suggestion, can we all just calm down on this,
> > >
> > > Matteo, your posting to a list, going on the offensive against someone
> and
> > > apparently getting very annoyed at it. That much is evident by the
> > > overall tone of your messages. My suggestion is to calm down, and
> relax
> > > a little.
> > >
> > > This may be a bug, but getting angry over it or the actions of others
> on
> > > this mailing list isn't helping anyone.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Thomas
> > > LP:~teward
> > >
> > >> On May 26, 2014, at 18:22, Matteo Sisti Sette
> wrote:
> > >>> On 27/05/14 00:19, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
> > >>> The most dangerous thing is not even the bug itself, but the fact
> that
> > >>> there is an idiot who keeps claiming that it shouldn't even be fixed,
> > >>> and changing the status of the bug report to anthing but "confirmed"
> > >>> ("invalid", then "opinion", now "won't fix").
> > >>
> > >> Oh great, and now he has even locked the status so people cannot
> change
> > >> it back.
> > >>
> > >> That man should be revoked the permissions to manage bugs.
> > >> All the idiotic claims he has made have been proved wrong (just in
> case
> > >> it was not evident enough)
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Ubuntu-quality mailing list
> > >> Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
> > >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> > >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
>
> --
> Ubuntu-quality mailing list
> Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
>
--
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw
--
Ubuntu-quality mailing list
Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
You can't quit can you?
Many developers, such as Phillip (and myself) are volunteers and are doing our
best to help make Ubuntu better. Hostile behavior such as yours makes Ubuntu
development a lot less enticing as a way to spend my free time. It's also
highly correlated in my experience with people who can be safely ignored.
Not only is it counter productive to your immediate goal of getting a bug
looked at (I actually looked at the bug in question and gave up because it was
too painful to read), but it compromises you ability more generally to be an
effective member of the Ubuntu community.
http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/conduct is not just a set of empty
platitudes. It's an essential set of guidance to making a global scale
project such as Ubuntu work. Please review it and consider how to align your
interactions in the Ubuntu community with it. I know this is not easy
sometimes (I find it a challenge frequently) but both you and the project will
be better off if you do.
Scott K
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 02:34:46 Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
> Ok,
> I'm calm and relaxed now. Thanks.
>
> Sorry for the offensive language. It's just a matter of replacing a word
> or two in my email and the meaning remains intact, though.
>
> If you have a look at the recent discussion in the bug report and
> especially the changes made by Phillip Susi, I think you will understand
> the reasons why I (together with one or two more users) felt enraged.
>
> By the way, I had already got my broken system fixed (thanks to the
> contribution of other affected users who took the time to report the
> issue and describe the steps they took to revert the damage) and I now
> know what to do the next time the bug strikes me; so, I could have just
> looked away and forgotten about it. If I spent my time replying to the
> bug report and writing to this list to draw the insane - whops, sorry
> again - incorrect - behavior of a developer/triager to your attention,
> it was in an effort to do my best to prevent other thousands of users
> from falling victim of the same issue.
>
> Regards,
> m.
>
> On 27/05/14 02:03, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > If I may make a suggestion, can we all just calm down on this,
> >
> > Matteo, your posting to a list, going on the offensive against someone and
> > apparently getting very annoyed at it. That much is evident by the
> > overall tone of your messages. My suggestion is to calm down, and relax
> > a little.
> >
> > This may be a bug, but getting angry over it or the actions of others on
> > this mailing list isn't helping anyone.
> >
> > --
> > Thomas
> > LP:~teward
> >
> >> On May 26, 2014, at 18:22, Matteo Sisti Sette
wrote:
> >>> On 27/05/14 00:19, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
> >>> The most dangerous thing is not even the bug itself, but the fact that
> >>> there is an idiot who keeps claiming that it shouldn't even be fixed,
> >>> and changing the status of the bug report to anthing but "confirmed"
> >>> ("invalid", then "opinion", now "won't fix").
> >>
> >> Oh great, and now he has even locked the status so people cannot change
> >> it back.
> >>
> >> That man should be revoked the permissions to manage bugs.
> >> All the idiotic claims he has made have been proved wrong (just in case
> >> it was not evident enough)
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ubuntu-quality mailing list
> >> Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
> >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
--
Ubuntu-quality mailing list
Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
Ok,
I'm calm and relaxed now. Thanks.
Sorry for the offensive language. It's just a matter of replacing a word
or two in my email and the meaning remains intact, though.
If you have a look at the recent discussion in the bug report and
especially the changes made by Phillip Susi, I think you will understand
the reasons why I (together with one or two more users) felt enraged.
By the way, I had already got my broken system fixed (thanks to the
contribution of other affected users who took the time to report the
issue and describe the steps they took to revert the damage) and I now
know what to do the next time the bug strikes me; so, I could have just
looked away and forgotten about it. If I spent my time replying to the
bug report and writing to this list to draw the insane - whops, sorry
again - incorrect - behavior of a developer/triager to your attention,
it was in an effort to do my best to prevent other thousands of users
from falling victim of the same issue.
Regards,
m.
On 27/05/14 02:03, Thomas Ward wrote:
If I may make a suggestion, can we all just calm down on this,
Matteo, your posting to a list, going on the offensive against someone and
apparently getting very annoyed at it. That much is evident by the overall
tone of your messages. My suggestion is to calm down, and relax a little.
This may be a bug, but getting angry over it or the actions of others on this
mailing list isn't helping anyone.
--
Thomas
LP:~teward
On May 26, 2014, at 18:22, Matteo Sisti Sette
wrote:
On 27/05/14 00:19, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
The most dangerous thing is not even the bug itself, but the fact that
there is an idiot who keeps claiming that it shouldn't even be fixed,
and changing the status of the bug report to anthing but "confirmed"
("invalid", then "opinion", now "won't fix").
Oh great, and now he has even locked the status so people cannot change it back.
That man should be revoked the permissions to manage bugs.
All the idiotic claims he has made have been proved wrong (just in case it was
not evident enough)
--
Ubuntu-quality mailing list
Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
--
Ubuntu-quality mailing list
Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
If I may make a suggestion, can we all just calm down on this,
Matteo, your posting to a list, going on the offensive against someone and
apparently getting very annoyed at it. That much is evident by the overall
tone of your messages. My suggestion is to calm down, and relax a little.
This may be a bug, but getting angry over it or the actions of others on this
mailing list isn't helping anyone.
--
Thomas
LP:~teward
> On May 26, 2014, at 18:22, Matteo Sisti Sette
> wrote:
>
>> On 27/05/14 00:19, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
>> The most dangerous thing is not even the bug itself, but the fact that
>> there is an idiot who keeps claiming that it shouldn't even be fixed,
>> and changing the status of the bug report to anthing but "confirmed"
>> ("invalid", then "opinion", now "won't fix").
>
> Oh great, and now he has even locked the status so people cannot change it
> back.
>
> That man should be revoked the permissions to manage bugs.
> All the idiotic claims he has made have been proved wrong (just in case it
> was not evident enough)
>
> --
> Ubuntu-quality mailing list
> Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
--
Ubuntu-quality mailing list
Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
El 27/05/14 00:19, Matteo Sisti Sette escribió: If you care about ubuntu "quality" you need to have a look at this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/__ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/__1289977 Brian; as Ubuntu Bug Master; could you please give your opinion in this report, so everybody can stop this long argument? Thank you. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
On 27/05/14 00:19, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote:
The most dangerous thing is not even the bug itself, but the fact that
there is an idiot who keeps claiming that it shouldn't even be fixed,
and changing the status of the bug report to anthing but "confirmed"
("invalid", then "opinion", now "won't fix").
Oh great, and now he has even locked the status so people cannot change
it back.
That man should be revoked the permissions to manage bugs.
All the idiotic claims he has made have been proved wrong (just in case
it was not evident enough)
--
Ubuntu-quality mailing list
Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
The most dangerous thing is not even the bug itself, but the fact that
there is an idiot who keeps claiming that it shouldn't even be fixed,
and changing the status of the bug report to anthing but "confirmed"
("invalid", then "opinion", now "won't fix").
The bug was reported in march and actions could have been taken before
(e.g. freezing the upgrade until fixed) to limit the damage it's doing
to thousands of users...
And also it definitely can and must be fixed.
On 26/05/14 15:11, Samuel Gabbay wrote:
This has to be fixed immediately. As users are most probably going to
start flooding the askubuntu website about this!
2014-05-25 18:36 GMT-04:00 Matteo Sisti Sette
mailto:matteosistise...@gmail.com>>:
Hi,
If you care about ubuntu "quality" you need to have a look at this:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/__ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/__1289977
--
Ubuntu-quality mailing list
Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.__com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/__mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-__quality
--
Ubuntu-quality mailing list
Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com
Modify settings or unsubscribe at:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
*Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse any typos, as they are likely to happen by accident.* > On May 26, 2014, at 10:54, Alberto Salvia Novella > wrote: > >> On 26/05/14 00:36, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: >> If you care about ubuntu "quality" you need to have a look at this: >> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1289977 > > Because we already have a system for handling bugs and set importances for > them, notice that commenting in individual ones in this mailing list adds no > value at all. > > +1 to this. There is already a triage procedure in place and commenting on the individual bugs here doesn't help much. > > -- > Ubuntu-quality mailing list > Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
On 26/05/14 00:36, Matteo Sisti Sette wrote: If you care about ubuntu "quality" you need to have a look at this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1289977 Because we already have a system for handling bugs and set importances for them, notice that commenting in individual ones in this mailing list adds no value at all. -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
On 26/05/14 14:11, Samuel Gabbay wrote: This has to be fixed immediately. As users are most probably going to start flooding the askubuntu website about this! And? If you want to fix it immediately then no-one will stop you. Mailing this list with petulant replies like this won't help. 2014-05-25 18:36 GMT-04:00 Matteo Sisti Sette : Hi, If you care about ubuntu "quality" you need to have a look at this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1289977 -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/ mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality -- Ubuntu Forum Council Member Xubuntu QA Lead -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
Re: This needs attention
This has to be fixed immediately. As users are most probably going to start flooding the askubuntu website about this! 2014-05-25 18:36 GMT-04:00 Matteo Sisti Sette : > Hi, > > If you care about ubuntu "quality" you need to have a look at this: > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1289977 > > -- > Ubuntu-quality mailing list > Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/ > mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality > > -- Ubuntu-quality mailing list Ubuntu-quality@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-quality
