Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/06/2011 04:19 AM, Misha Shnurapet wrote: 05.12.2011, 21:06, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com: Ah, it's the *users'* own fault, for not spending enough time reading the GNOME 3 mailing lists. How stupid of them. It looks like you prioritize knowlege of science fiction comedy over that of your company's profile. whoosh Andrew. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 4:26 PM, Misha Shnurapet shnura...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Watch this video, it'll help you make the right choice next time. [1] http://magazine.redhat.com/2008/09/16/video-the-history-of-fedora/ Wow! very enlightening video! Well, not really, considering the fact I'm using Fedora since FC1 and RHL before since 7. And I still don't understand what you were trying to say. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Joe Zeff joe at zeff.us writes: On 12/05/2011 04:48 PM, Tim wrote: Buying new and expensive hardware every few years, for artificially necessary reasons, is the Windows mindset. The underlying problem is much more fundamental than that. Often, the devs get big, muscular boxes to work on with lots and lots of disk space, RAM and video RAM, including the Latest and Greatest Video Cards they can find. This makes development much easier. They don't, however, bother to test their work on anything other than their own boxen, meaning that they quite often end up with great software that only works on a maxed-out computer with the latest video cards. And, of course, their regular response to anybody who complains about the unreasonable and expen$ive hardware requirements is to tell them to throw money at the problem because they rarely, if ever, have the slightest idea how much their development equipment cost or how hard it might be for their users to get together enough cash to upgrade. ... Unfortunately there is a trend recognizable affecting this and other distros. The past week I continued taking inventory of what is going on in Linux distros land. Among others, I picked the recent OpenSUSE 12.1 live cd with KDE. I decided to test it on one of my notebooks that has 768 MB RAM, on which I have been running Windows XP, FreeBSD, Fedora with GNOME 2, XFCE, and LXDE. Well, it was a horror - it took it 10 min to stabilize KDE (load, swap in and out, and what ever other hell was going on in there), and while doing that to give me a chance to access menu items (!) or panel applets without waiting for each of them for 0.5 min to even react to each of my mouse clicks. After that mountain climb the desktop was ready but noticeably slow. OK, I knew KDE was a hog, even in KDE 3 times, but this ? I mean this was a live cd - do those devs want to scare the hell out of prospective or current users ? Btw, here are reliable reviews of their recent 32- and 64-bit releases: http://www.dedoimedo.com/ Now, this is not funny any more. Fedora (you remember its review there, don't you ?) and OpenSUSE are top distros in the perception of many, but reality bites ... Now, I vividly remember times when we ran DOS, or even Windows 95, with Lotus 1-2-3, WordStar, and dBASE without a hickup in this amount of RAM, and btw on a PC with CPU and other hardware that was primitive by today's standards. And nowdays we can not get a Linux distro DE alone run satisfactorily on a modern machine ? And if that happens in UNIX/Linux world then it is a double whammy ! This is not only about programming and designing skills. Your mindset has been polluted by IT players, marketing, companies you work for, your peers. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Well, it was a horror - it took it 10 min to stabilize KDE (load, swap in and out, and what ever other hell was going on in there), and while doing that to give me a chance to access menu items (!) or panel applets without waiting for each of them for 0.5 min to even react to each of my mouse clicks. After that mountain climb the desktop was ready but noticeably slow. LiveCD will really show up any point you tip into paging and it's not a good way to get a performance picture of a distro. It's a bit better off USB2 with some of the USB sticks. Now, I vividly remember times when we ran DOS, or even Windows 95, with Lotus 1-2-3, WordStar, and dBASE without a hickup in this amount of RAM, and btw on a PC with CPU and other hardware that was primitive by today's standards. As was the software ! And nowdays we can not get a Linux distro DE alone run satisfactorily on a modern machine ? There are lots of people building distributions for small spaces using things like Yocto. The other assumption you have is also a bit dubious. Everyone in server space is now doing lots of virtualisation - having big fat distributions is exactly what the big hosting providers and corporations doing this on a large scale *hate*, because it wastes tons and tons of resources. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/5/2011 5:48 PM, Tim wrote: On Mon, 2011-12-05 at 09:20 -0800, Robert M. Witkop wrote: Years ago, I also used computers long before we'd even heard of Windows. My own first real personal computer was the Amiga, and that was chosen after being thoroughly put off by the other personal computers that I'd had a play with (that others owned). I liked it for what it was, how it worked (much better than the alternatives, at the time), and what could be done with it. I could look after it quite easily, and there were few secrets. A few years later, I faced the no-choice of having to get a PC, to be able to do stuff in a PC-only world (or the majority of it being that way, that it might as well be PC-only). And I got sick of it real quick. It was, and still is, a suicidal OS, plagued with problems, and probably always will be. Another thing that really pissed me off, about it, was how much of it was secret. I got really really sick of the see your admin error messages. I was the admin, there was no one to ask. The built-in help was crap, the manual gave no information about the issues. Help on the WWW was far from satisfactory, and even when you did find an answer that was correct, the solutions were utterly ludicrous from a computing point of view (the design/philosophy of Windows is just plain nuts). And really, the only way to know what you're doing (if you wanted to make a job out of IT), rather than be some klutz who might stumble on a few things, was to go on some expensive training course, again and again. And, when you look into what some of these course were about, it was galling. Networking training reduced down from knowing about administrating TCP/IP, to merely learning the crapped out way that Windows does it. Forget about learning about DNS, or TCP/IP traffic, or any of that, just learn which boxes to fill in for this version of Windows. Then go on another expensive course when they release a new version. One of these courses was little more than what you see in the setting up your network, in the installation guide for Fedora. It was that /sparse/ in info. Fill in the blanks, don't actually learn about what you're doing. Then, at long last, Linux came to a point where it was usable as a personal computer, in the current world. I dropped Windows in a flash. Never regretted it. Enjoyed the lack of secrecy (documentation, things working in a sensible manner that you could work out the local implementation, source code if you wanted to peruse it, no hidden files on your drive from package installations that you can't tell what will put where), and the return to a sane filing system (non-suicidal filing system, files stored in sensible places, separation of system's from application's from user's files). But over the last few years I keep seeing one Linux-thing after another going Windows-like (dumb ideas, cloning Windows, no documentation, go see your admin). With developers either copying the worlds worst examples of computing (i.e. Windows), and not knowing (because they've never used other systems), or not acknowledging that the Windows way is the horrible way. Or it's Windows developers migrating to a different OS (Linux) and just carrying on doing the same crap, instead of learning how to do thing in a better way. I suspect the latter, since it seems to be that it used to be Unix users going off to Linux, since Unix was expensive but they could afford to personally use Linux as a similar alternative, so we got a lot of the Unix mindset (designed by computer boffins). But now it seems to be Windows users doing the same thing, migrating from an expensive or pirated product, to something they can afford to play with, and they're building stuff (but with all the lack of experience of a teenage hacker, someone who just cobbles together something that seems to work, but doesn't integrate well into an established system, and then they mess up rest of the system to suit their hack, instead of fitting in). I know opinions are like a part of our anatomy in that everyone has on, and I usually keep my opinions to myself, but GNOME3 is so different from 2 that it should have been forked as a new product, not put out as a revision. I tend to agree. If some of the Gnome developers (or the same applies to KDE), wanted to go out in a radically different direction, they should have started their own new project, and left the current one to those interested in it. If the old Gnome, or KDE, or whatever, continued or died a natural death, that would be it. The current debacle has been a forced termination. It virtually precludes some from continuing on with working on the older desktop, because it's been deliberately poisoned. And it's not just the change in direction, it's the huge increase in computing power that's a big problem. Some years ago, Compiz came out, with fancy flashy effects for your desktop
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Tuesday 06 December 2011 13:19:13 Misha Shnurapet wrote: 05.12.2011, 21:06, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com: Ah, it's the *users'* own fault, for not spending enough time reading the GNOME 3 mailing lists. How stupid of them. It looks like you prioritize knowlege of science fiction comedy over that of your company's profile. That particular piece of science fiction comedy is actually a satirical and alegorical image of the real world we live in. It emphasizes and makes ridicule of some typical patterns of behavior in modern society. So, aside from being a masterpiece in science fiction comedy, it also has a moral of the story one can learn from. I believe it was Andrew's intention to point that out. And yes, I would certainly prioritize a philosophical standpoint over any company profile. Company profiles should adjust to reason, not the other way around. Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 6 December 2011 00:48, Tim ignored_mail...@yahoo.com.au wrote: And it's not just the change in direction, it's the huge increase in computing power that's a big problem. Some years ago, Compiz came out, with fancy flashy effects for your desktop (pretty, but unessential). That required a 3D accelerated card, which wasn't appreciated very much. Those of us with the hardware had a play, but would notice that Compiz, by itself, was using almost all the available resources. The computer was getting sluggish, the card was getting very hot. Never mind wanting to do other things with your computer, than merely run the desktop. Actually I found Compiz introduced some useful things, overlaying transparent windows and drag and drop (of windows and items) between workspaces was actually useful. There were some good accessibility features (the desktop zoom). Though my favourite thing about Compiz was the time (four years ago) when a Mac-using friend saw me using it and said I don't know what it is, but that's what heaven must look like. My complaint about Gnome3 is mainly that it restricts that kind of extended use rather than enabling it. But the number of times this discussion has gone around is just unproductive. At the end of the day? I spend most of my time working on multiple terminal windows and text editors, doing some music and photo organisation and have several browser windows open. I have no idea what a power user is. The only thing that's permanently irritating is the alt-tab / alt-` split (and some details of the alt-` behaviour). -- imalone -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Am 05.12.2011 08:11, schrieb Misha Shnurapet: 03.12.2011, 13:48, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com: It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed, major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any functional replacements There is no arguing that the new GNOME 3 is a significant change. But what you had with GNOME 2 was a result of about a decade of development. You want the same user experience SURELY! nobody forced the developers to throw all away and start from scratch if they decide to do so the should hol d back their crap until it is ready or learn what refactoring is and maintain the existing code or have you ever heard that someone considered throw away the whole kernel-code which has a much older history than GNOME? thats the difference netween developers and morons signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/04/2011 06:54 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote: There will never be a single right size, portability vs. display size thing, and as people hit 40 they realize that fonts they*can* read are no longer ones they *want to* read. I'm 62, now, and I see much better than I did when I was 40, although I still prefer the same fonts. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Misha Shnurapet shnura...@fedoraproject.org wrote: 03.12.2011, 13:48, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com: It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed, major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any functional replacements There is no arguing that the new GNOME 3 is a significant change. But what you had with GNOME 2 was a result of about a decade of development. You want the same user experience, the same functionality today while it takes months to port all the stuff that you may not even know is to stay in GNOME. I wonder, when the GNOME 2 came out, was it something largely accepted. Then this functionality should be ported before it is declared as release and pushed as a full replacement for current working environment. Or it could be pushed as experimental spin, while mainline still keeps with GNOME 2. and every time someone points this out, they're told that they're too stupid to know what's good for them, and this is The Better Way. I think you're exaggerating. Noone from the GNOME project could have actually told you that. I think he isn't. They actually did say it many times. Not in those exact words, but that is the general attitude of GNOME3 devs. Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. GNOME 3 is much more extensible than any other previous version of GNOME, it is made to receive many kinds of extensions AND IT WILL. This looks more like marketing-speech. I haven't yet seen a single extension that is on par in terms of functionality with what I use in GNOME2 for years. 04.12.2011, 03:56, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com: And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video cards for visual cruft is not in the cards. Old hardware receives the classic user experience in the form of fallback mode. But if you want the exact GNOME 2 with no option to compromise, the attitude you may receive may simply become your payback. Marketing speech again. In GNOME 3.0 fallback mode was a joke. In 3.2 it is really closer to GNOME 2, though. 04.12.2011, 00:26, Scott Doty sc...@ponzo.net: ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_. I absolutely undrestand that you like Linus. But don't you forget that Linus is a long time KDE user, and that's a different view on user interface and usability. We love GNOME for being GNOME unless switch DE easily and stop complaining. Knowing that Linus likes to troll both developers and users from time to time, it's funny to see the adherents of ye olde GNOME coming up with the quotes to support their point of view, especially when those are rather positive. This is not a matter of like or dislike. I don't know him personally to like or dislike him, but he looks like a very sensible person and this is what makes his opinions valuable. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/04/2011 11:44 PM, Scott Doty wrote: But this resembles an _unconfigured_ gnome2 installation -- all of the buttons, drawers, and widgets from Gnome 2's gnome-panel are lost. To add things to the panels, press alt and hold, press right mouse click. The drawers are not there though, but buttons, and most widgets etc. are there. I really wish people would stop trying to put lipstick on the fallback mode -- just tell folks to move to kde, or xfce. Lipstick? For me it is as close to Gnome2 that I can get, I can get the buttons and widgets I used, and most importantly, it restores the work-flow that I once had in Gnome2, the work-flow that Gnome3 with its shell totally destroyed. I can get my work done again, and that's what it is important for me. I actually did use Xfce since Gnome3 hit me, but turned to the fall-back mode mentioned above (i.e. Gnome3 with metacity, Gnome3 with compiz I did not get to work though, could not add things to the panels). The sad thing is that they have hidden this fall-back mode quite thoroughly. Lars. -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
05.12.2011, 17:02, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net: Am 05.12.2011 08:11, schrieb Misha Shnurapet: 03.12.2011, 13:48, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com: It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed, major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any functional replacements There is no arguing that the new GNOME 3 is a significant change. But what you had with GNOME 2 was a result of about a decade of development. You want the same user experience SURELY! nobody forced the developers to throw all away and start from scratch if they decide to do so the should hol d back their crap until it is ready or learn what refactoring is and maintain the existing code No, they didn't have to keep the code to themselves. That is Open Source, and that is how the software is developed and bug reports gathered. 3rd party developers have been provided with all the necessary tools and the codebase to create what users would further desire. There is no discrimination, neither intentionally built obstacles. And before GNOME 3.0 was released, there had been loads of tech previews, presentations, alpha and beta builds, blog posts, screenshots, videos and all kinds of other information on the Internet about what the new GNOME 3 was going to be. The project source code repository, the mailing lists and the bugzilla were functional 24/7. Where have you all been when you saw it was going to hurt you? 05.12.2011, 17:32, Pasha R pashar...@gmail.com: On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Misha Shnurapet shnura...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. GNOME 3 is much more extensible than any other previous version of GNOME, it is made to receive many kinds of extensions AND IT WILL. This looks more like marketing-speech. Bare facts only. I haven't yet seen a single extension that is on par in terms of functionality with what I use in GNOME2 for years. Noone has yet written makes you think GNOME 3 isn't capable. Okay. 04.12.2011, 03:56, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com: And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video cards for visual cruft is not in the cards. Old hardware receives the classic user experience in the form of fallback mode. But if you want the exact GNOME 2 with no option to compromise, the attitude you may receive may simply become your payback. Marketing speech again. In GNOME 3.0 fallback mode was a joke. In 3.2 it is really closer to GNOME 2, though. I assume at least one problem is solved for you. 04.12.2011, 00:26, Scott Doty sc...@ponzo.net: ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_. I absolutely undrestand that you like Linus. But don't you forget that Linus is a long time KDE user, and that's a different view on user interface and usability. We love GNOME for being GNOME unless switch DE easily and stop complaining. Knowing that Linus likes to troll both developers and users from time to time, it's funny to see the adherents of ye olde GNOME coming up with the quotes to support their point of view, especially when those are rather positive. This is not a matter of like or dislike. I don't know him personally to like or dislike him, but he looks like a very sensible person and this is what makes his opinions valuable. The GNOME developers are none the less sensible people. Especially those most committed. And if you knew how Linus handles arguements, you'd be used to be called names. -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Am 05.12.2011 10:56, schrieb Misha Shnurapet: SURELY! nobody forced the developers to throw all away and start from scratch if they decide to do so the should hol d back their crap until it is ready or learn what refactoring is and maintain the existing code No, they didn't have to keep the code to themselves. not the code but a release called GA That is Open Source, and that is how the software is developed and bug reports gathered. well, but if the software is not ready for endusers it should not released to them as default UI 3rd party developers have been provided with all the necessary tools and the codebase to create what users would further desire. does not help much if you release a software unusable for your current userbase but hey it supports a tablet The project source code repository, the mailing lists and the bugzilla were functional 24/7. Where have you all been when you saw it was going to hurt you? it does not hurt me because i was never a gnome user but it hurts me to see that my favourite distribution is packing such a thing as default desktop without any thoughts at the current user base and do not come with but gnome2 is still not developed any more RHEL6/CentOS6 is shipping it for years! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
05.12.2011, 19:04, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net: Am 05.12.2011 10:56, schrieb Misha Shnurapet: That is Open Source, and that is how the software is developed and bug reports gathered. well, but if the software is not ready for endusers it should not released to them as default UI Was it not stable enough? They even delayed the planned release to make it ready for the end user. 3rd party developers have been provided with all the necessary tools and the codebase to create what users would further desire. does not help much if you release a software unusable for your current userbase but hey it supports a tablet I've been using GNOME 3 since 3.0 and I don't even use extensions. I do not understand what you mean by unusable. Are you trying to make me think everything is so dramatical? 05.12.2011, 19:04, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net: it does not hurt me because i was never a gnome user but it hurts me to see that my favourite distribution is packing such a thing as default desktop without any thoughts at the current user base You meant to say the community, developers+contributors, the people who like to play around. That is Fedora. And the user base is safe. If you want to be safe, become the user base, use the final product. Fedora is only the starting point. -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how to use. That's somewhat arrogant and misleading. You assume that people want exact control of everything they use, whereas most people want detailed domain knowledge and control of a few things and would prefer the rest just worked simply without configuration. Interfaces also differ dramatically in whether the knowledge on how to use them is internalised (eg the command line) or externalised (many gui interfaces). Then there is discoverability, making a user interface something you can gradually learn and find the extra features in - like hotkeys and shortcuts. That's one case where Gnome 3.2 panel in fallback fails horribly - alt right-click how will anyone logically deduce this and try it ? If you've not read it you might find Norman's The Design of Everyday Things an interesting read. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Misha Shnurapet shnura...@fedoraproject.org wrote: 05.12.2011, 17:02, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net: Am 05.12.2011 08:11, schrieb Misha Shnurapet: 03.12.2011, 13:48, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com: It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed, major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any functional replacements There is no arguing that the new GNOME 3 is a significant change. But what you had with GNOME 2 was a result of about a decade of development. You want the same user experience SURELY! nobody forced the developers to throw all away and start from scratch if they decide to do so the should hol d back their crap until it is ready or learn what refactoring is and maintain the existing code No, they didn't have to keep the code to themselves. That is Open Source, and that is how the software is developed and bug reports gathered. 3rd party developers have been provided with all the necessary tools and the codebase to create what users would further desire. There is no discrimination, neither intentionally built obstacles. And before GNOME 3.0 was released, there had been loads of tech previews, presentations, alpha and beta builds, blog posts, screenshots, videos and all kinds of other information on the Internet about what the new GNOME 3 was going to be. The project source code repository, the mailing lists and the bugzilla were functional 24/7. Where have you all been when you saw it was going to hurt you? I was using GNOME 2. You know, there is a tiny group of people called users, that supposes that in 21st century they may expect OS to be actually usable even with such distribution as Fedora, without having to run alphas, betas and previews. Not to mention that even if all these arguments started even at alpha stage, they would be ignored by developers just like they are ignored now. 05.12.2011, 17:32, Pasha R pashar...@gmail.com: On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Misha Shnurapet shnura...@fedoraproject.org wrote: Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. GNOME 3 is much more extensible than any other previous version of GNOME, it is made to receive many kinds of extensions AND IT WILL. This looks more like marketing-speech. Bare facts only. If you say so... I haven't yet seen a single extension that is on par in terms of functionality with what I use in GNOME2 for years. Noone has yet written makes you think GNOME 3 isn't capable. Okay. As I said above, I believe expectation from released software to be useful doesn't look really unreasonable these days. So all these someone will write something someday looks like poor excuse for me. 04.12.2011, 03:56, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com: And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video cards for visual cruft is not in the cards. Old hardware receives the classic user experience in the form of fallback mode. But if you want the exact GNOME 2 with no option to compromise, the attitude you may receive may simply become your payback. Marketing speech again. In GNOME 3.0 fallback mode was a joke. In 3.2 it is really closer to GNOME 2, though. I assume at least one problem is solved for you. Yes, partially. 04.12.2011, 00:26, Scott Doty sc...@ponzo.net: ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_. I absolutely undrestand that you like Linus. But don't you forget that Linus is a long time KDE user, and that's a different view on user interface and usability. We love GNOME for being GNOME unless switch DE easily and stop complaining. Knowing that Linus likes to troll both developers and users from time to time, it's funny to see the adherents of ye olde GNOME coming up with the quotes to support their point of view, especially when those are rather positive. This is not a matter of like or dislike. I don't know him personally to like or dislike him, but he looks like a very sensible person and this is what makes his opinions valuable. The GNOME developers are none the less sensible people. Especially those most committed. And if you knew how Linus handles arguements, you'd be used to be called names. Judging by current Gnome-Shell, I would not call them sensible. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Watch this video, it'll help you make the right choice next time. [1] http://magazine.redhat.com/2008/09/16/video-the-history-of-fedora/ -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Alan Cox alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk writes: The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how to use. That's somewhat arrogant and misleading. You assume that people want exact control of everything they use, whereas most people want detailed domain knowledge and control of a few things and would prefer the rest just worked simply without configuration. Sounds like the award-winning GNOME 2 DE :-) But the ueber-driven KDE fans called it dumbed down ... ... Then there is discoverability, making a user interface something you can gradually learn and find the extra features in - like hotkeys and shortcuts. That's one case where Gnome 3.2 panel in fallback fails horribly - alt right-click how will anyone logically deduce this and try it ? Yep, that's the most sensible critique so far in this thread (after mine) - it almost matches The Linus view of GNOME 3.2 ... ... JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
I have been working with computers and operating system before many on this list were even a twinkle in their fathers eye. When I was introduced to Linux (kernel 0.92), it pleased me that I could switch to a computer I didn't have to build myself. Also, I no longer had to run ZPM at home, and unix at work. Although I normally only update on even versions, because I don't mind change, I like some stability in my work. I upgraded my hardware about the time that F15 came out, so I decided that I would install f15 instead of f14. When I found that gnome did not run out of the box, I had to make a decision, to I want to go through a learning curve, or do I want to develop systems. If I wanted windoz, I would run windoz. I am hoping that when I get the time to upgrade my systems to F16, that the source for the old gnome will compile with it. If not, I will have to upgrade to one of the simple window system that just let me do my work. I know opinions are like a part of our anatomy in that everyone has on, and I usually keep my opinions to myself, but GNOME3 is so different from 2 that it should have been forked as a new product, not put out as a revision. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/05/2011 09:56 AM, Misha Shnurapet wrote: And before GNOME 3.0 was released, there had been loads of tech previews, presentations, alpha and beta builds, blog posts, screenshots, videos and all kinds of other information on the Internet about what the new GNOME 3 was going to be. The project source code repository, the mailing lists and the bugzilla were functional 24/7. Where have you all been when you saw it was going to hurt you? Ah, it's the *users'* own fault, for not spending enough time reading the GNOME 3 mailing lists. How stupid of them. People of Earth, your attention, please. This is Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz of the Galactic Hyperspace Planning Council. As you will no doubt be aware, the plans for development of the outlying regions of the Galaxy require the building of a hyperspatial express route through your star system. And regrettably, your planet is one of those scheduled for demolition. The process will take slightly less than two of your Earth minutes. Thank you. There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams. I don't know, apathetic bloody planet, I've no sympathy at all. Andrew. From: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Mon, 2011-12-05 at 09:20 -0800, Robert M. Witkop wrote: I upgraded my hardware about the time that F15 came out, so I decided that I would install f15 instead of f14. When I found that gnome did not run out of the box, I had to make a decision, to I want to go through a learning curve, or do I want to develop systems. If I wanted windoz, I would run windoz. Years ago, I also used computers long before we'd even heard of Windows. My own first real personal computer was the Amiga, and that was chosen after being thoroughly put off by the other personal computers that I'd had a play with (that others owned). I liked it for what it was, how it worked (much better than the alternatives, at the time), and what could be done with it. I could look after it quite easily, and there were few secrets. A few years later, I faced the no-choice of having to get a PC, to be able to do stuff in a PC-only world (or the majority of it being that way, that it might as well be PC-only). And I got sick of it real quick. It was, and still is, a suicidal OS, plagued with problems, and probably always will be. Another thing that really pissed me off, about it, was how much of it was secret. I got really really sick of the see your admin error messages. I was the admin, there was no one to ask. The built-in help was crap, the manual gave no information about the issues. Help on the WWW was far from satisfactory, and even when you did find an answer that was correct, the solutions were utterly ludicrous from a computing point of view (the design/philosophy of Windows is just plain nuts). And really, the only way to know what you're doing (if you wanted to make a job out of IT), rather than be some klutz who might stumble on a few things, was to go on some expensive training course, again and again. And, when you look into what some of these course were about, it was galling. Networking training reduced down from knowing about administrating TCP/IP, to merely learning the crapped out way that Windows does it. Forget about learning about DNS, or TCP/IP traffic, or any of that, just learn which boxes to fill in for this version of Windows. Then go on another expensive course when they release a new version. One of these courses was little more than what you see in the setting up your network, in the installation guide for Fedora. It was that /sparse/ in info. Fill in the blanks, don't actually learn about what you're doing. Then, at long last, Linux came to a point where it was usable as a personal computer, in the current world. I dropped Windows in a flash. Never regretted it. Enjoyed the lack of secrecy (documentation, things working in a sensible manner that you could work out the local implementation, source code if you wanted to peruse it, no hidden files on your drive from package installations that you can't tell what will put where), and the return to a sane filing system (non-suicidal filing system, files stored in sensible places, separation of system's from application's from user's files). But over the last few years I keep seeing one Linux-thing after another going Windows-like (dumb ideas, cloning Windows, no documentation, go see your admin). With developers either copying the worlds worst examples of computing (i.e. Windows), and not knowing (because they've never used other systems), or not acknowledging that the Windows way is the horrible way. Or it's Windows developers migrating to a different OS (Linux) and just carrying on doing the same crap, instead of learning how to do thing in a better way. I suspect the latter, since it seems to be that it used to be Unix users going off to Linux, since Unix was expensive but they could afford to personally use Linux as a similar alternative, so we got a lot of the Unix mindset (designed by computer boffins). But now it seems to be Windows users doing the same thing, migrating from an expensive or pirated product, to something they can afford to play with, and they're building stuff (but with all the lack of experience of a teenage hacker, someone who just cobbles together something that seems to work, but doesn't integrate well into an established system, and then they mess up rest of the system to suit their hack, instead of fitting in). I know opinions are like a part of our anatomy in that everyone has on, and I usually keep my opinions to myself, but GNOME3 is so different from 2 that it should have been forked as a new product, not put out as a revision. I tend to agree. If some of the Gnome developers (or the same applies to KDE), wanted to go out in a radically different direction, they should have started their own new project, and left the current one to those interested in it. If the old Gnome, or KDE, or whatever, continued or died a natural death, that would be it. The current debacle has been a forced termination. It virtually precludes some from continuing on with working on the older desktop, because it's
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/05/2011 04:48 PM, Tim wrote: Buying new and expensive hardware every few years, for artificially necessary reasons, is the Windows mindset. The underlying problem is much more fundamental than that. Often, the devs get big, muscular boxes to work on with lots and lots of disk space, RAM and video RAM, including the Latest and Greatest Video Cards they can find. This makes development much easier. They don't, however, bother to test their work on anything other than their own boxen, meaning that they quite often end up with great software that only works on a maxed-out computer with the latest video cards. And, of course, their regular response to anybody who complains about the unreasonable and expen$ive hardware requirements is to tell them to throw money at the problem because they rarely, if ever, have the slightest idea how much their development equipment cost or how hard it might be for their users to get together enough cash to upgrade. This problem would be self-correcting (because people would stay away from such resource hogs) if it weren't for companies who are willing to pay whatever it takes to upgrade because they think they have to have the latest pile of festering dingo poo to come down the pike and kids just out of school with more disposable income than common sense who do exactly the same thing. I don't know, of course, if that's part of what happened in the case of Gnome 3, but I wouldn't be the slightest bit astonished to learn that it was part of what made it turn out the way it did. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
05.12.2011, 21:06, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com: Ah, it's the *users'* own fault, for not spending enough time reading the GNOME 3 mailing lists. How stupid of them. It looks like you prioritize knowlege of science fiction comedy over that of your company's profile. -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote: Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote: Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 10:40 +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote: Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden. Where does one find System info? I can't find it. -- === In the future, you're going to get computers as prizes in breakfast cereals. You'll throw them out because your house will be littered with them. === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
O Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email. Just try something more complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going to cut the mustard. Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc. There just isn't the screen real estate, to start with. Then try writing a long email without a keyboard. I read much of my email these days on my Android phone with K9. I save the stuff worth replying to and reply locally. It means reading email can be done in what was otherwise dead times. For the typical end user with webmail there isn't really much difference between gmail on a phone and gmail on the web. Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that, such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat next to them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is a major chore. You need to watch a 14 year old not a business-drone. The kids learned this stuff from a young age and their wpm on a phone is scary. Then you watch people spinning them around, to read something less awkwardly in the other aspect. Zooming in and panning about to read something (and the effect is like trying to read a magazine through a keyhole). Definitely. I do read books on the phone when travelling but they need to be appropriately formatted and some stuff like magazine type material simply doesn't work. That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress. Agreed 100%. In fact one of the problems outstanding is how the UI handles the situation where you do the following Receive an email on the phone, glance at it, begin replying, realise you need to look at the attached presentation, flick the phone display onto your 40 LED 1080p television and carry on working that way. Simply expanding the existing display and way of working isn't necessarily the sane way to do it. And it actually goes beyond that, because if you've got local CPU power you really want your environment to be a virtual machine that can flip seamlessly onto the bigger processor connected to the TV. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/04/2011 03:34 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote: Where does one find System info? I can't find it. Left click on your name in the upper right corner of the screen. Chose 'Systems Settings' Chose 'System Info' Chose 'Graphics' There you have a toggle for 'Forced Fallback Mode' To add things to the panels, press and hold Alt, and then right click. It seem to be quite close to what you get in Gnome2. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 08:34 -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote: On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 10:40 +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote: Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden. Where does one find System info? I can't find it. Right top corner, click on your username and go to System Settings. Scroll to the very bottom and should see it under System. -- Mike Chambers Madisonville, KY The best town on Earth! -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 22:50, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: this is nonsense the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years Oh really? think again, think internet-connected TVs running Android or some other OS. http://www.geniatech.com/pa/android-tv.asp He´s right about the declining of relevance of Windows, and by extension, the windows API at the app level, too. FC -- The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers. Richard Hamming - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_code -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Am 04.12.2011 19:19, schrieb Fernando Cassia: On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 22:50, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: this is nonsense the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years Oh really? think again, think internet-connected TVs running Android or some other OS. http://www.geniatech.com/pa/android-tv.asp He´s right about the declining of relevance of Windows, and by extension, the windows API at the app level, too. did i say anything other? what did you exactly not understand in the percent does not matter all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now and this is why it is wrong to design defaults only having smartphones and tabs in mind - ther are people which do much more with a computer and will ever be which can not be done with any mobile device because you are missing the needed performance and interfaces, not speaking from RAID etc. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sunday 04 December 2011 19:59:38 Reindl Harald wrote: all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now and this is why it is wrong to design defaults only having smartphones and tabs in mind - ther are people which do much more with a computer and will ever be which can not be done with any mobile device because you are missing the needed performance and interfaces, not speaking from RAID etc. Noobs and people who only look at e-mail and surf the web will use Gnome3, since it looks the same and works the same as their favorite smartphone. Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who want a zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer, car and microwave oven. Meanwhile, workstation powerusers will use KDE, and configure it inside out to match their desired workflow. ;-) And the world will be a happy place once again. :-D Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/04/2011 11:26 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who want a zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer, car and microwave oven. Friday night, I was talking with writer John DeChancie. He was interested in turning one of his paintings into a cover for his latest book, and I suggested that he look at Scribus, as it's FOSS and works under Windows just as well as Linux. As it happened, one of the other members of the conversation had used the program and said that it was very capable, but had a generous learning curve. I replied, Anything worth using has a learning curve. The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how to use. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:59, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: what did you exactly not understand in the percent does not matter all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now The percentage DOES matter in terms of GROWTH and MIND SHARE. Mobile devices and mouse-less, or keyboard-less devices will be where growth will be, often at a fraction of the cost of a traditional computer. In other words, the ´new´ devices will grow and the traditional pc environment will eventually stall. If any OS decides to ´ignore´ this trend it will become a niche market. An OS that is no longer talked about is often forgotten. Remember IBM OS/2? It´s still for sale -and somewhat limited development- under another brand at www.ecomstation.com. Will it grow? hardly. Will anybody know about it 10 years from now? very unlikely. That´s the reason why Linux cannot afford to ignore the new devices and ´morphings´ of the computer to new aread, and why it must offer UIs designed for these new devices and paradigms. In fact, I worry that Canonical´s latest get Ubuntu on TVs might be too late already. Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC. But IMHO it´s desirable to see Linux moving into these new grounds. Just my $0.02 FC -- The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers. Richard Hamming - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_code -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/04/2011 12:05 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote: Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC. But IMHO it´s desirable to see Linux moving into these new grounds. Exactly. I have no objection to seeing Linux move into the realm of the tablet, the phone and the pocket computer;[1] I think it's a good thing. I don't even object to creating a UI for a desktop that emulates that of a tablet, for those who want it. What I, personally, object to is making that emulation the default for a major DE and telling anybody who complains that they'll just hafta learn to use it. I can't speak for anybody else (except, in this case, my sister) but my (and her) reaction to something like that is to say, No I don't, while walking away from whatever it is and finding something else that I like better. I probably would have at least given Gnome 3 a try if the attitude of the devs hadn't been so inflexible. When they said to the world, in effect, My way or the highway, my instant response was to find a different DE (XFCE in my case) that allowed me to do things my way instead of forcing me to do things the way the devs think the world wants to do things. YMMV, and if you're using Gnome 3 clearly does, which is fine with me. [1]Jerry Pournelle, who (along with Larry Niven) predicted pocket computers in *The Mote In God's Eye,* and *The Gripping Hand,* is thrilled to see his prediction come true so soon. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Am 04.12.2011 21:05, schrieb Fernando Cassia: On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:59, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: what did you exactly not understand in the percent does not matter all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now The percentage DOES matter in terms of GROWTH and MIND SHARE. Mobile devices and mouse-less, or keyboard-less devices will be where growth will be you do NOT WANT to understand me it does not matter in the context we optimize all for the new devices because a traditional pc is not cool enough where did i say any word that these devices sgould be ignored or not supported as good as possible? but it is dumb to make a desktop DEFAULT which ignores real computers! often at a fraction of the cost of a traditional computer. laughable, many of this new devices are at the same cost as a traditional computer if you look at the real price and not what your mobile providr pays for you In other words, the ´new´ devices will grow and the traditional pc environment will eventually stall. so what If any OS decides to ´ignore´ this trend it will become a niche market. who spoke about ignore them? make a useable desktop for classical computers where you can switch to a mobile-view, but do not handle every device like a mbolie OR YOU BECOME A NICHE That´s the reason why Linux cannot afford to ignore the new devices and ´morphings´ of the computer to new aread, and why it must offer UIs designed for these new devices and paradigms. did i say anything against this? the problem is that childish developers forget real devices In fact, I worry that Canonical´s latest get Ubuntu on TVs might be too late already. nobody needs a crippled distribution which does not fit well on a tv and not on a real computer for such things were and are specialized distributions much better and there is no need to cripple down desktop distributions Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC. hopefully that the other developers will not get infected by this all for the new coll play-devices signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 17:49, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote: you do NOT WANT to understand me YES I DO. ;) but it is dumb to make a desktop DEFAULT which ignores real computers! I get your point, you´re complaining about Gnome3 being the default. I hear you, loud and clear, no need to shoot the messenger if you don´t like someone´s opinions. :) All this brouhaha would be moot if Fedora simply detected the kind of device it´s being installed on and show a screen saying this looks like** a Tablet device, so we´ll default to a touch-based interface, OK? [yes-no] Or This looks like** a Desktop computer, we´ll be defaulting to XFCE. Are you OK with that? [yes-no] Or This is a laptop or netbook. Which desktop interface do you prefer? [a] [b] [c] [d]. So everyone is happy and there´s no ugly desktop forced down anybody´s throat. FC PS: While I wrote the above ** I couldn´t help smiling and thinking about the infamouse Clippy and its it looks like you´re writing a letter... ;-) -- The purpose of computing is insight, not numbers. Richard Hamming - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_code -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/04/2011 01:42 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote: I get your point, you´re complaining about Gnome3 being the default. I hear you, loud and clear, no need to shoot the messenger if you don´t like someone´s opinions. :) It looks to me as though he's not so much complaining about Gnome3 being the default, as about the way Gnome3 looks to be designed for a tablet with just a (very) grudging nod to the fact that most of its users are using a desktop or laptop computer that doesn't have a touch screen. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Craig White: Don't assume that input options remain static or aren't being improved upon continually. For example, Ice Cream Sandwich implements continuous speech processing including punctuation which represents a real option for many. It's the first thing that springs to mind, as an easy solution. Until you watch how businessmen use their gadgets, on the bus, at a cafe on the street corner, in a meeting... Voice input has its uses, but lots of limitations. Likewise, there are 'swipe' type input keyboards which with some practice, are usable and reasonable for character entry. Don't forget that usage of a QWERTY keyboard actual required learning and practice and there are still a large amount of users who simply use 1 or 2 finger input having never learned to touch type anyway. Haven't heard of swipe keyboards, so I went and had a look. Argh, gawd, bringing the fun and games of predictive text to all keyboards. It's bad enough trying to decipher what some people try to say in plain English, never mind when the computer has added further scrambling. True enough that there's plenty of hunt and peck typists, and some of them are fast. At least with a normal keyboard you can use normal fingers. With mini keyboards, of any type, you're faced with using a stick, or trying to get the corner of a fingernail to press the one key that you want to press, and not four keys at the same time. But, adding a keyboard to a tablet, is getting back to ye olde desktop problem. A box, with this cabled to that, half a dozen times over (keyboard, mouse, screen, printer, modem...), rat's nests are bad enough on the desk, but haven't to lug it around and set it up with a portable devices. :-( Not to mention a grudging admission that such things are still necessary, or vital. On screen keyboards are reasonable for the younger generation and reasonable for short messaging for most and a plethora of options exist for extended usage. Sure, if you feel like bashing your fingertips into a solid piece of glass... And being unable to touch type. They really are up there with the rest of the unergonomic designs. Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very good for fine detail. While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be the most versatile. True - I don't do 'fine' detail on my telephone but 'pinch to zoom' allows you to access magnifications where even a fat finger can be like a needle in many instances. I've watched my friend doing that. Just reading one small webpage, and then clicking on the bits you needed to click on, involved lots of zooming in and out, and panning around. Not at all convenient, nor quick, and out of the question for people without manual dexterity, or missing some digits. That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress. It seems obvious to me that there are 2 schools of thought here and yours is shared by a few. The other school seems to think that the desktop computer is just one of the various forms of computing and that other forms will include small form factors (perhaps like Apple's 3.5 diagonal iPhone) to relatively small 4-5 to 7-8 and larger. Perhaps these small form factors will drop into a laptop type shell (like the Motorola Atrix), wirelessly connect to keyboard, mouse and display when in an home or office environment, etc. And, continue to use an inappropriate interface, instead of transforming? Because the way things are going, it doesn't look transforming is going to be the way. With desktop devices getting portable device interfaces. I see the value of portable devices, I see the value of being able to develop for them on a desktop computer. I do not see that it's good thing to destroy a good desktop model to force people into using an inappropriate one on it, just to be consistent. Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of the woods in Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the netbooks indicates that the public wants extremely portable, relatively inexpensive computing devices even if it only does e-mail/web browsing and it's not just Gnome who have picked up on the fact that the future of computing devices is up for grabs. One only need look at the Windows 8 preview and see their Windows Phone 'tiles' interface as the primary UI/launcher to see that they are not alone with a redesign of their UI with an eye to all possible form factors. The trouble is that they (various theys), don't seem to be designing UIs to fit different form factors. They're trying to fit one UI onto all the devices. Yes, such gadgets are becoming popular, here. But they're still a specialist
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
[1]Jerry Pournelle, who (along with Larry Niven) predicted pocket computers in *The Mote In God's Eye,* and *The Gripping Hand,* is thrilled to see his prediction come true so soon. In 1974... the handheld calculator already being with us in 1967 and Moores law already stated. Star Trek was already waving tricorders around and tricorders appear to show cloud computing ideas too. Try 'Feeling of Power' - Asimov 1958 (which also predicts losing the ability to do maths because of having a pocket calculator). I'm not even sure it's the first. And of course Dynabook was described in 1968 by Alan Kay as a real research vision. His original design btw was 12 x 9 so large pocket needed but very much a tablet style although he included a keyboard. Whats really interesting is what else the Parc work predicted in 1980 as the result of such devices and the stuff they were playing with then but unable to do within size and budget due to technology. My favourite quote from the CC article on it being Television in particular would be in for trouble - who's going to watch poor television programs if they can link up with all the other kids on the block for a game of really super Startrek or Startrader Didn't quite call Warcraft correctly but not far off 8) Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sunday 04 December 2011 12:21:44 Joe Zeff wrote: On 12/04/2011 11:26 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote: Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who want a zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer, car and microwave oven. Anything worth using has a learning curve. The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not going to get it. Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how to use. I agree with you completely, but the Gnome devs are apparently pushing to prove us wrong... :-) However, as a happy KDE user I don't have to worry about the Gnome devs. Btw, you reminded me of that common saying, build a system that even an idiot can use, and only idiots will use it, which may give people a bit of perspective on the route Gnome is taking... ;-) Best, :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Alan Cox wrote: I've been playing with 3.2 a bit today an F16. [...snip...] I still think the biggest mistake was calling it Gnome. It's something quite different and they'd have upset a lot less people if they'd not tried to pretend it was the same experience as Gnome. That has to rank among the top ten astute things you have said (in a long history of getting to the heart of a problem). If you use the name you get the expectations for free. Somewhat like Ford jacking up the Explorer name and replacing an SUV with a crossover instead of coining a new name for their AWD station wagon. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 21:34 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote: Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:37 -0800, Scott Doty wrote: On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote: As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I want that toy. Finally, someone talking sense! Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point. But since you've previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a toy it is. You have no clue what we are talking about. you are assuming that I didn't use Gnome 3 for a day after I installed F16 but since I didn't much care for Gnome 2, the fact that I didn't much care for Gnome 3 seemed logical. I'm not sure how that follows, KDE is more like GNOME2 than is GNOME3. The GNOME releases are similar only at the acronym level. I see - in your opinion, software developers are not actually free to re-imagine what their software is/does or is this particular lack of inability only extended to Gnome developers? Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Joe Zeff wrote: On 12/03/2011 02:12 PM, Alan Cox wrote: Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC style software. That will change. Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's available? I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even one of them willing to work without a proper keyboard. For that matter, I've completed three novels for NaNoWriMo and have three more stuck at about 60K words, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do that much writing with only an on-screen keyboard. [1]Not writers; people who earn their living from their writing. [2]Names available on request, as I'm not interested in name dropping for its own sake. I did one book for NaNoWriMo, although the length to complete it was about half of what it reached when really done. I built a system just for writing, with a big HDTV as monitor so I could have the timeline tool and word processor on the screen, and went through three keyboards and two chairs before I got the perfect setup. Haven't done one in a few years, last year my wife was dying and I was caretaker 7x24, this year I'm about 60k into a book which insisted on being written before the one I sat down to write. There will never be a single right size, portability vs. display size thing, and as people hit 40 they realize that fonts they *can* read are no longer ones they *want to* read. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
03.12.2011, 13:48, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com: It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed, major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any functional replacements There is no arguing that the new GNOME 3 is a significant change. But what you had with GNOME 2 was a result of about a decade of development. You want the same user experience, the same functionality today while it takes months to port all the stuff that you may not even know is to stay in GNOME. I wonder, when the GNOME 2 came out, was it something largely accepted. and every time someone points this out, they're told that they're too stupid to know what's good for them, and this is The Better Way. I think you're exaggerating. Noone from the GNOME project could have actually told you that. Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. GNOME 3 is much more extensible than any other previous version of GNOME, it is made to receive many kinds of extensions AND IT WILL. 04.12.2011, 03:56, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com: And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video cards for visual cruft is not in the cards. Old hardware receives the classic user experience in the form of fallback mode. But if you want the exact GNOME 2 with no option to compromise, the attitude you may receive may simply become your payback. 04.12.2011, 00:26, Scott Doty sc...@ponzo.net: ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_. I absolutely undrestand that you like Linus. But don't you forget that Linus is a long time KDE user, and that's a different view on user interface and usability. We love GNOME for being GNOME unless switch DE easily and stop complaining. Knowing that Linus likes to troll both developers and users from time to time, it's funny to see the adherents of ye olde GNOME coming up with the quotes to support their point of view, especially when those are rather positive. 04.12.2011, 04:04, Marko Vojinovic vvma...@gmail.com: It takes a certain personality profile to be able to use Fedora successfully. Most notably the ability to embrace new technologies, the ability to put up with occasional rough edges, and the ability to handle steep learning curves. That is, Fedora is the future now. -- Best regards, Misha Shnurapet, Fedora Project Contributor Email: shnurapet AT fedoraproject.org, IRC: misha on freenode https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/shnurapet, GPG: 00217306 -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Craig White craigwhite at azapple.com writes: Man, you brought me back from hibernation again ... ... Considering... - that you can have your beloved Gnome 2 for at least another 5 years on RHEL 6 (or various rebuilds thereof), But you do not have a workable GNOME DE in Fedora. This fact introduced a lot of havoc to real users computing and business environments. As an example of many, this recent post: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2011-December/408873.html This is how you kill your users base, in particular the precious corporate one, which is by no means part of sandalistas movement ... - that Fedora embraces the latest technology advances and yes, that includes Gnome, There are many people who doubt that. Change for the sake of change ? I have already explained on this list how parallelized SysV Init/LSB scripts are equal in speed and superior in their mainainability and other qualities to systemd. There is no question that the child of progress GNOME 3 is a basket case, more than one year after its introduction to Fedora code base. What advances ? - that approximately 3 years is considered a generation in terms of computer technology which includes everything from hardware to end user interfaces, I think you should stick to your toys and sandbox ... This is a pseudo-progress gimmicky statement usually introduced by market and technological newcomers, and the parasitic IT and accounting consultancies, who benefit from that excessive pseudo-reengineering crap. Let me give you an example so you can educate yourself. IBM was and is a mainframe powerhouse. In the mid 90's was forced into reinventing itself by some emerging technologies (Internet, etc). After DEC and some others gave up, even one of the main shareholders of IBM admitted they feared the end as well. Real or unreal fear ? Now, you know what they did ? They hired a relatively obscure CEO who understood customers/users base (being himself one of them). He listened to their needs ! He reorganized IBM around services, added some products that would supplement their software offerings, and ... basically stuck to IBMs guns, that is their mainframes. He assumed, quite correctly, that in the age of proliferating IT and Internet there will be a lot of already present and future data to be managed and processed in the backends of data centers. He did not kill the company or its products, he supplemented and reorganized. They are still a mainframe powerhowse, even more than in the past. I call it back to the future for IBM. Do you understand progress now ? - that regardless of you feelings of Gnome 3, there are people who actually like it, Yes, you and some other clueless twitters. - that a significant portion of the Gnome code base had aged and needed to be re-written was not merely 'Change for the sake of change', Yes, this is true, code needs rewriting and refactoring, sometimes even redesigning. Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while preparing a spin with GNOME 3 where it would be developed and tested for a different class of devices, in anticipation of new technologies and user needs/habits. When it was proposed on this list, some anonimous joker told us Rejected !. So much for wisdom of sandalistas. Remember, on or off salons, a sandalista is a sandalista is a sandalista ... So, the primary reason GNOME devs and their handlers dropped GNOME 2 was their desire to introduce new GUI for the supposed wave of the future (smart things, which are actually pretty dumb and limiting to their users; and somewhat more smart netbooks, preferably with that powerhouse joke called Atom chip from Intel). By doing that they made themselves a laughing stock of DEs (in particular GUI space) and screwed up their current user base. That user base (technical and non-technical) started to run away from RH and Fedora (see the stats I presented to you here) already in anticipation of future progress (GNOME 3, systemd, SELinux, etc). You got a bill for your advances and progress. Now deal with it. - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different name? Craig You are a clueless troll. Educate yourself. JB -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Am 03.12.2011 03:21, schrieb Christopher A. Williams: PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well in this coming wave... so this funny gui-designers should realize that it is idiotic to try making the standard-interface touchscreen-optimized and somehow you can use it with keyboard and mouse there needs to be a option or detection if the UI is running on a mobile device or om a classic desktop on a classic desktop it MUST NOT waste space with large buttons which you can hit with an arrow from the neighbours windows! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Am 03.12.2011 06:02, schrieb Craig White: - that a significant portion of the Gnome code base had aged and needed to be re-written was not merely 'Change for the sake of change', good developers knowing the word refactoring while you do refactoring the behavior MUST NOT change bad developers are throwing all away, starting from scratch, getting frustrated after a while because they recognize how much work would it be to write all the existing things again - and so they decide to decalre that all what they could not implement in der new big thing is not needed and all is perfect as it is now - and sadly they seem to believe what they try to sell the users i know that now the next comes out and says but they are getting not paid well - and if i make things not for the money i normally would not loved to called a moron by the majority of users and if i do not want this i have to act in a way that does not spit users in their face signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 08:40 +, JB wrote: Craig White craigwhite at azapple.com writes: Man, you brought me back from hibernation again ... was not my intention to do so... take responsibility for your own actions rather than blame others That user base (technical and non-technical) started to run away from RH and Fedora (see the stats I presented to you here) already in anticipation of future progress (GNOME 3, systemd, SELinux, etc). You got a bill for your advances and progress. Now deal with it. SELinux is quite good actually. Systemd, I have had little reason to interact with it so far and I expect that when I do, I will curse for having to learn new tricks but eventually figure out that there's wisdom here. Been using Ubuntu for 8 months now, still unclear of some of the upstart logic but it's obvious that the SysV stuff was tired. - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different name? Craig You are a clueless troll. Educate yourself. Sorry to see that you have degenerated to making this so personal but hey, if that's what comprises effective argumentation for you, then go for it. The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a distribution that does. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 21:29 -0800, Scott Doty wrote: On 12/02/2011 09:02 PM, Craig White wrote: - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different name? Craig This is ludicrous. Pally, your blathering flamebait regarding Linus' opinion was unwanted, unwelcome, and illustrative of the kind of thinking that idolizes shiny things, without ever having to do real work on a computer. I've personally been using Linux since 1992, Redhat since the Halloween release up until FC1 began, and every release of FC/F up until today -- not that that matters one iota, except to point out just how much you've messed up, Son. Old timers will note that I have attacked nothing but your arguments -- and if that reflects poorly on the arguer, that's for you to figure out. Meanwhile, everybody sees what you just did -- and those with critical thinking skills can see, plainly, the logical fallacies that you are clearly unaware of having uttered. That, too, is your problem -- all because you posted your flame bait. Hell, isn't it? I get the impression that you're suggesting that I lack critical thinking skills but you have them. Ignoring the sheer arrogance of that thinking for the moment, let me just point out that Gnome 2 is dead and won't be coming to another Fedora release ever - little critical thinking needs to be done to understand that. As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I want that toy. The real flamebait here was Ed's original post in the thread about your beloved Linus embracing Gnome 3 - his earlier dis or his current embrace of Gnome 3 really doesn't matter... Gnome 2 is dead save for any reasonable efforts to fork it (which I doubt will ever occur). Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/03/2011 05:14 AM, Craig White wrote: The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a distribution that does. Craig Love it or leave it. Fortunately for us -- and not so fortunately for you -- Fedora is a community Linux distribution. It is not a Craig White Linux distribution. ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_. -Scott -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:26 -0800, Scott Doty wrote: On 12/03/2011 05:14 AM, Craig White wrote: The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a distribution that does. Craig Love it or leave it. Fortunately for us -- and not so fortunately for you -- Fedora is a community Linux distribution. It is not a Craig White Linux distribution. ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_. I don't recall ever professing to have any influence on the choices that Fedora developers make nor do I ever use the users list as a soap box for my thoughts on the matter. I am content to live with their decisions and make the best of whatever short term issues arise and do bugzilla reports when something fails to meet my expectations. As for my opinion of Linus Torvalds - I don't think I have much of an opinion since I have never met him, don't follow him on any social networking forum, don't read his blogs and am of the belief that he isn't using Fedora these days so I completely fail to see the purpose of your above commentary except to provoke more irrelevance. Yes, Fedora is a community based distribution - probably more so than Ubuntu (see SABDFL) and you can have actual input into the decision making process simply by getting involved. Of course that means doing packaging or getting on the board of directors or clearly making efforts beyond commenting from the peanut gallery. As for love it or leave it - I suppose that is everyone's prerogative. I am using Ubuntu on servers these days (as opposed to RHEL /or CentOS /or SL /or Oracle 'unbreakable' so seemingly moving to another distro for my desktop is always an option... one that I considered before I did a clean install of F16 last week. I use a Ubuntu desktop (via FreeNX) at my work and I could easily use it instead of Fedora and it hardly matters - so yes, 'love it or leave it' is clearly everyone's prerogative. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
very convincing and well-grounded in facts. The *majority* of Internet connected devices will definitely be in the smartphone and tablet category in the next 3 years. That does not mean they will be the *only* That's very questionable. The majority of internet connected devices *with a user interface* probably - and at the current takeup almost entirely phones. How much of a shift this really is you can debate for hours given that the phone/tablet/pc divide is IMHO essentially an artificial construction caused by current hardware limits. We don't ask is that a phone or a watch any more. We don't ask Do you have a PDA and a phone any more. In a few years time it won't make sense to ask do you have a tablet and a PC. To me the more interesting question is how you ensure when you get home and stick your system on the charger that it backs up, switches to the fast processor on the base unit, fires up the monitors and speakers and does so seamlessly, ditto when you take it away, ditto when it's put into the car, ... The fact of the matter is we are already seeing this happen. Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers in low income families because they are cheaper (as in $200 range), constantly connected, and do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.) Actually if you look at pricing a second hand PC is cheaper at the base level. However it's hard to maintain like all PC systems, it needs technical poking now and then while Android has pretty much (not quite) succeeded in being a 'just works' environment along with a 'can reset and get it back' model. One of the most convincing marketing explanations I heard for all of this is that the end user PC market is finally segmenting more. It's splitting more and more clearly into groups like - I don't type a lot, I don't care and if my phone does it with the least hassle I'm sorted - I need a keyboard but otherwise don't care (traditional low end PC) - 'Power' users - technical folks, extreme gamers - My computer is a style statement that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more I don't know where you got that from, but worldwide tablet sales hardly back that up. There is one point that is being missed though, critical to the whole argument. Try using Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 on a touchscreen - its absolutely unusable because of things like the window resizing behaviour. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Alan Cox wrote: [...snip...] that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more I don't know where you got that from, but worldwide tablet sales hardly back that up. There is one point that is being missed though, critical to the whole argument. Try using Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 on a touchscreen - its absolutely unusable because of things like the window resizing behaviour. I think the tablet is a valuable tool, but it doesn't exist in the same space as a PC. If the imput limitations are not an issues, and many people are just consumers on content, then a tablet will serve. If portability is an issue, and ease of use without a mouse matters, the tablet is a better choice,. no PC needed. I'm planning to buy the new Eee Transformer, it provides the benefits of both, and the means to use whichever configuration suits. A tablet for walking around, and a real keyboard and better resolution mouse when doing typing tasks. It will not replace a big PC for major word processing, unless it has a lot better keyboard feel and CPU power than I expect, but for a few days on the road it serves just fine. I think the car paradigm works, the specialized units are so much better than the general purpose units that there is a market for all of them, big, little, cheap, expen$ive, sexy, etc.Sports cars and Fiat 500 as well as pickup trucks. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote: As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I want that toy. Finally, someone talking sense! Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point. But since you've previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a toy it is. You have no clue what we are talking about. In another message, you expressed the idea that we should (paraphrased) love it or leave it. But since you've previously revealed that you are an Ubuntu user, you have no clue what we are talking about. If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with respectable ideas. Stop using Fedora is not one of them. Linus' opinion doesn't matter is not one of them. And so forth c, -Scott -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/03/2011 02:20 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: bad developers are throwing all away, starting from scratch, getting frustrated after a while because they recognize how much work would it be to write all the existing things again In the case of Gnome 3, I get the impression that they threw out the baby *instead of* the bath water. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:26 -0800, Scott Doty wrote: On 12/03/2011 05:14 AM, Craig White wrote: The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a distribution that does. Craig Love it or leave it. Fortunately for us -- and not so fortunately for you -- Fedora is a community Linux distribution. It is not a Craig White Linux distribution. ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_. I don't recall ever professing to have any influence on the choices that Fedora developers make nor do I ever use the users list as a soap box for my thoughts on the matter. I am content to live with their decisions and make the best of whatever short term issues arise and do bugzilla reports when something fails to meet my expectations. Your memory is failing too. On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 21:29 -0800, Scott Doty wrote: I get the impression that you're suggesting that I lack critical thinking skills but you have them. Ignoring the sheer arrogance of that thinking for the moment, let me just point out that Gnome 2 is dead and won't be coming to another Fedora release ever - little critical thinking needs to be done to understand that. Given that adoption of the GNOME2 fork from MINT has been discussed here, it would seem that you sure as hell SOUNDS like you are professing influence on Fedora content, It sounds as if you, single handedly, can prevent inclusion. Or do your critical thinking skills mean only critical of others? Anyway, therer is a credible port, you also said: Gnome 2 is dead save for any reasonable efforts to fork it (which I doubt will ever occur). Before you claim that I take that sentence out of context, it was part of a paragraph about flame-bait, and was out of context already. -- Bill Davidsendavid...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Saturday 03 December 2011 07:37:21 Scott Doty wrote: If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with respectable ideas. Stop using Fedora is not one of them. Linus' opinion doesn't matter is not one of them. Respect on this list is obtained by providing high-quality advice to people who ask for it. Craig is a long-term participant on this list, and does hold a certain amount of respect in the eyes of other people here. OTOH, I don't remember you giving any advice to anyone here, up until this thread started. The stop using Fedora is in fact a very useful advice --- if Fedora does not meet your needs, you have absolute freedom to try out and migrate to some other distro that does. Fedora is not for everyone, and I don't always recommend it to everyone. It takes a certain personality profile to be able to use Fedora successfully. Most notably the ability to embrace new technologies, the ability to put up with occasional rough edges, and the ability to handle steep learning curves. If you don't have these abilities, then Fedora is probably not the right choice for you. If I were you, I would give Craig's advice more serious consideration. HTH :-) Marko -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote: Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness actually matters. So this is what I hear you saying. Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion does not matter. Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the opinions of end users don't matter. I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much). You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is progress. Change for the sake of being different is not progress, it's marketing. Changing the way things work to break the old tools so people will ue YOUR tools instead the 3rd party stuff is how MSFT got big, it is less appealing in open source, where ours is better and yours doesn't work any more sounds a lot like ego trip. The computer should work the way the users want it to work, not the other way around. And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video cards for visual cruft is not in the cards. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
I think the tablet is a valuable tool, but it doesn't exist in the same space as a PC. Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC style software. That will change. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com wrote: Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion does not matter. Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the opinions of end users don't matter. I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much). You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is progress. Change for the sake of being different is not progress, it's marketing. Changing the way things work to break the old tools so people will ue YOUR tools instead the 3rd party stuff is how MSFT got big, it is less appealing in open source, where ours is better and yours doesn't work any more sounds a lot like ego trip. The computer should work the way the users want it to work, not the other way around. And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video cards for visual cruft is not in the cards. I have been watching this thread with interest - I went through the tinkering process with gnome3 and also with KDE - I abandonned gnome3 as it did not suit me - I tried KDE 4.0 when it first was released but did not like it at that time. Then I stuck with KDE3.7.3 at f16 release for a while - after a couple of weeks I started to feel that was not for me either and had some stability issues which remain as of my last test a couple of days ago - then I tried xfce - and very quickly found that it did everything I wanted from a DE, both speedily and efficiently as well as with stability. Yes I had to learn the tweaks, and which additional packages were needed to be installed to make the optimisations I wanted possible (for all three desktop environments) but in the end I had a choice which I was happy with. I have not tried lxde but I know others like that DE also. There are some things that are still buggy in all three but my own DE happiness just happened to come with xfce on the three machines that I am now running it on. I guess all the DEs available will evolve in time but at least we all have a choice and although each DE will vary in popularity every individual should find one of them to be mostly to their taste? I do think that long running arguments that are largely critical of one or other DE giving significant negative feedback to those who write the code don't provide the kind of feedback that would lead to developers being encouraged to become enthusiastic about moving forward, but positive requests for enhancement might have a better chance of finding a receptive ear - it would be interesting to hear the views of developers directly though. -- mike c -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 3 December 2011 13:31, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I want that toy. The real flamebait here was Ed's original post in the thread about your beloved Linus embracing Gnome 3 - his earlier dis or his current embrace Bit low maybe to talk about childish behaviour before immediately going on to 'your beloved Linus'? -- imalone -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/03/2011 02:12 PM, Alan Cox wrote: Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC style software. That will change. Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's available? I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even one of them willing to work without a proper keyboard. For that matter, I've completed three novels for NaNoWriMo and have three more stuck at about 60K words, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do that much writing with only an on-screen keyboard. [1]Not writers; people who earn their living from their writing. [2]Names available on request, as I'm not interested in name dropping for its own sake. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 10:24 PM, mike cloaked mike.cloa...@gmail.com wrote: Change for the sake of being different is not progress, it's marketing. Changing the way things work to break the old tools so people will ue YOUR tools instead the 3rd party stuff is how MSFT got big, it is less appealing in open source, where ours is better and yours doesn't work any more sounds a lot like ego trip. The computer should work the way the users want it to work, not the other way around. And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video cards for visual cruft is not in the cards. I have been watching this thread with interest - I went through the tinkering process with gnome3 and also with KDE - I abandonned gnome3 as it did not suit me - I tried KDE 4.0 when it first was released but did not like it at that time. Then I stuck with KDE3.7.3 at f16 release for a while - after a couple of weeks I started to feel that was not for me either and had some stability issues which remain as of my last test a couple of days ago - then I tried xfce - and very quickly found that it did everything I wanted from a DE, both speedily and efficiently as well as with stability. Yes I had to learn the tweaks, and which additional packages were needed to be installed to make the optimisations I wanted possible (for all three desktop environments) but in the end I had a choice which I was happy with. I have not tried lxde but I know others like that DE also. There are some things that are still buggy in all three but my own DE happiness just happened to come with xfce on the three machines that I am now running it on. I guess all the DEs available will evolve in time but at least we all have a choice and although each DE will vary in popularity every individual should find one of them to be mostly to their taste? I do think that long running arguments that are largely critical of one or other DE giving significant negative feedback to those who write the code don't provide the kind of feedback that would lead to developers being encouraged to become enthusiastic about moving forward, but positive requests for enhancement might have a better chance of finding a receptive ear - it would be interesting to hear the views of developers directly though. One comment that I could make about gnome3.2 in f16 which was a real clincher for me was that the alacarte package remains broken in f16 - which is needed to do simple edits to the menus yes I found alternatives to make new .desktop files for launching scripts that were not part of the available package sets so that my own launchers could be put into the dash (or dock extension), but that item was the final straw for me for gnome3 apart from some of the other things that I found worked better for me with the other two desktops I mentioned in my previous post. I know that is a negative comment - and indeed the bugzilla report that relates to the alacarte package remains (at least as of last night) unresolved. However it would still be better to pursue pushing for positive change through the bug reporting system since that is where the developers certainly will be much more likely to read input than here? -- mike c -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC style software. That will change. Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's available? I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even Do you think an accountant will want to muck about copying things between devices when his tablet just picks up the local bluetooth keyboard and wireless display when he walks into the room, and still works as a tablet with his customer ? Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
I've been playing with 3.2 a bit today an F16. The F16 installer is a trainwreck - crashes if an old disk has a partial raid array on it, then crashes when you try and report the crash. Try again and it decides my install options contain a conflict, go back to fix it and it hangs. It eats 750MB of memory yet it *still* can't even manage to do basic 'Guess my location/locale' stuff using geolocation tools. The desktop is looking rather better than before. The dock and some of the extensions actually turn it roughly back into a desktop and the transitions and planning for the most part are smooth. Some of the most annoying bits of behaviour seem to have been tidied up. Yet to try it on a big display however. A big display really really needs things like application menus on the backdrop right click to avoid all the mouse waving in Gnome 3 (and indeed Gnome 2 defaults). It's a pity they are still desperately trying to hide the extensions in the default install. Granted some of them don't work, they conflict with each other and the design is far inferior to the Gnome 2 applets but it's heading the right way, and some of the other style and design work is certainly better than Gnome 2. The Gnome extensions web site is also designed to help this process - but I suspect because they way all the extensions seem to fight each other it'll be a rough ride initially. Performance seems a bit better but it ought to be given it's running off SSD. I still think the biggest mistake was calling it Gnome. It's something quite different and they'd have upset a lot less people if they'd not tried to pretend it was the same experience as Gnome. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Am 03.12.2011 23:58, schrieb Alan Cox: Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC style software. That will change. Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's available? I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even Do you think an accountant will want to muck about copying things between devices when his tablet just picks up the local bluetooth keyboard and wireless display when he walks into the room, and still works as a tablet with his customer ? Alan sometimes this whole discussions feels like i am the only one who is using development-tools, a desktop machine for virtual-machines used as wlan access point, router, audio-server and so much other this you can NEVER achieve on a tablet short time ago linux was for power-users and windows a game loader do they people all think power-users are dying and liux should be a replacement for windows instead a independet, customizeable system for real performance and much more a 08/15 user will use? if this is the truth i fear i am too young with 34 years to die before this crap will be introduced everywhere and all peopole who are really using there computers are to few to get supported glory brand new wolrd :-( signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/03/2011 02:31 PM, mike cloaked wrote: However it would still be better to pursue pushing for positive change through the bug reporting system since that is where the developers certainly will be much more likely to read input than here? Agreed, as well as joining the Gnome usability list. I've been lurking on the list much of late, but I will be damned if I have to sit here and watch some snot-nosed CS101 punk dis' Linus. Gnome developers, on the other hand...well, I would say they have it coming to them, but I think that would be incorrect: the problem was a lack of communication, a lack of feedback on big changes. I'm not the only one caught off-guard by the changes in Gnome 3 -- nor do I have to like the game of gotcha people played when I first brought it up. Alas, I haven't had anywhere near the time to put into supporting change that I'd like. (Maybe this will be the impetus that lights a fire under my tail end.) -Scott -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 14:13 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote: Gnome 2 is dead save for any reasonable efforts to fork it (which I doubt will ever occur). Before you claim that I take that sentence out of context, it was part of a paragraph about flame-bait, and was out of context already. there's an awful lot of work in maintaining the entire Gnome 2 desktop and blending it into an OS that doesn't break other things and actually maintain it over time but if it appeals to you (Mint), then you should go for it. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 13:48 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote: Alan Cox wrote: [...snip...] that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more I don't know where you got that from, but worldwide tablet sales hardly back that up. There is one point that is being missed though, critical to the whole argument. Try using Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 on a touchscreen - its absolutely unusable because of things like the window resizing behaviour. I think the tablet is a valuable tool, but it doesn't exist in the same space as a PC. If the imput limitations are not an issues, and many people are just consumers on content, then a tablet will serve. If portability is an issue, and ease of use without a mouse matters, the tablet is a better choice,. no PC needed. as you some allude to in your next quoted paragraph, tablets are not an either / or proposition but rather an alternative and thus, usuable for 80-90% of typical computer uses. I'm planning to buy the new Eee Transformer, it provides the benefits of both, and the means to use whichever configuration suits. A tablet for walking around, and a real keyboard and better resolution mouse when doing typing tasks. It will not replace a big PC for major word processing, unless it has a lot better keyboard feel and CPU power than I expect, but for a few days on the road it serves just fine. Evidently the Transformer Prime pre-orders have greatly stripped Asus's ability to deliver in the near term. Good choice - good luck getting one. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 19:04 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote: On Saturday 03 December 2011 07:37:21 Scott Doty wrote: If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with respectable ideas. Stop using Fedora is not one of them. Linus' opinion doesn't matter is not one of them. Respect on this list is obtained by providing high-quality advice to people who ask for it. Craig is a long-term participant on this list, and does hold a certain amount of respect in the eyes of other people here. OTOH, I don't remember you giving any advice to anyone here, up until this thread started. The stop using Fedora is in fact a very useful advice --- if Fedora does not meet your needs, you have absolute freedom to try out and migrate to some other distro that does. Fedora is not for everyone, and I don't always recommend it to everyone. It takes a certain personality profile to be able to use Fedora successfully. Most notably the ability to embrace new technologies, the ability to put up with occasional rough edges, and the ability to handle steep learning curves. If you don't have these abilities, then Fedora is probably not the right choice for you. If I were you, I would give Craig's advice more serious consideration. HTH :-) Marko To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to others it is a road to madness. But one can hardly completely blame Fedora. It is the creation the Gnome developers who are what some of us think is the wrong track as Linus thinks it is. -- === blithwapping: Using anything BUT a hammer to hammer a nail into the wall, such as shoes, lamp bases, doorstops, etc. -- Sniglets, Rich Hall Friends === Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akons...@sbcglobal.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:37 -0800, Scott Doty wrote: On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote: As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I want that toy. Finally, someone talking sense! Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point. But since you've previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a toy it is. You have no clue what we are talking about. you are assuming that I didn't use Gnome 3 for a day after I installed F16 but since I didn't much care for Gnome 2, the fact that I didn't much care for Gnome 3 seemed logical. There is the philosophy of 'release early and often', for many reasons including getting more eyeballs on the code base, bug reports, bug fixes, etc. Perhaps you are familiar with this one because it has been a driving force behind Open Source software. This means that there are times when there is some pain to be experience until things mature. This seems to particularly evident on a DE because not all the parts and pieces are in place for quite some time - as it was with KDE 4, so it was with Gnome 3. Get over it. If you're not impressed with Gnome 3, choose a different DE or use a different distro that is hanging onto Gnome 2 for some time. Seems to me that you have more productive choices than to somewhat pointlessly bitch and moan to a users list. In another message, you expressed the idea that we should (paraphrased) love it or leave it. But since you've previously revealed that you are an Ubuntu user, you have no clue what we are talking about. not sure what one has to do with the other but apparently you missed the point of the 'love it or leave it' designation came from you and I tried to sign on to your assertion as best I could. If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with respectable ideas. Stop using Fedora is not one of them. Linus' opinion doesn't matter is not one of them. I don't recall ever expressing a desire to have my ideas respected - clearly some will and some won't and I am more than willing to live with that outcome as I don't actually expect everyone to agree with me. I don't recall ever suggesting anyone to 'Stop using Fedora' but rather would encourage everyone to evaluate whether Fedora is the right distribution for their needs. If you want to make some leap into it meaning anything more than that - take responsibility for your own leap. Now that Linus has done both a dis and an embrace of Gnome 3 - are you asserting that his opinion matters in terms of Gnome 3 implementation on Fedora? Feel free to elaborate. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
sometimes this whole discussions feels like i am the only one who is using development-tools, a desktop machine for virtual-machines used as wlan access point, router, audio-server and so much other this you can NEVER achieve on a tablet *current* tablet. Half of that you couldn't do on a PC ten years ago ! short time ago linux was for power-users and windows a game loader do they people all think power-users are dying and liux should be a replacement for windows On the contrary I think the tablet of today is todays Palmpilot. A constrained platform used (very cleverly in some cases) to provide a very useful subset of facilities. However the technology is moving on all the time. I have an 8GB microSD card here. When I was a university student the university was proud of its massive total 6GB of disk storage. Alan -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:21 -0700, Christopher A. Williams wrote: Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers and do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.) that were once solely the domain of PCs. Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email. Just try something more complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going to cut the mustard. Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc. There just isn't the screen real estate, to start with. Then try writing a long email without a keyboard. Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that, such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat next to them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is a major chore. Then you watch people spinning them around, to read something less awkwardly in the other aspect. Zooming in and panning about to read something (and the effect is like trying to read a magazine through a keyhole). Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more difficult to use for producing information than PCs at the moment. They are equally as good for those who are primarily consumers of information. Once tablet manufacturers actually decide to deal with issues around printing and getting more effective input methods in place, tablet acceptance will likely take off like a shot. Again, I've watched businessmen playing with their pads. And you're right that they're reasonable for a read-only device (big enough screen, less wieldy to carry around than a laptop and accessories), but nasty for typing anything more than about a sentence or two. As far as coming up with effective input method, there is little else than a proper keyboard for doing extensive typing. And I mean something with physical buttons, that you can feel move. Not just drawing a keyboard on the screen. Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very good for fine detail. While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be the most versatile. PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well in this coming wave... That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress. -- [tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r 2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686 Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I read messages from the public lists. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to others it is a $ sed -i 's|Fedora 3|Gnome 3|g' To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to others it is a Right? Fedora 3 was released long time ago, If I remember correctly Nov 2004 :) road to madness. But one can hardly completely blame Fedora. It is the creation the Gnome developers who are what some of us think is the wrong track as Linus thinks it is. -- Regards, Antonio -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 12:35 +1030, Tim wrote: On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:21 -0700, Christopher A. Williams wrote: Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers and do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.) that were once solely the domain of PCs. Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email. Just try something more complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going to cut the mustard. Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc. There just isn't the screen real estate, to start with. Then try writing a long email without a keyboard. Don't assume that input options remain static or aren't being improved upon continually. For example, Ice Cream Sandwich implements continuous speech processing including punctuation which represents a real option for many. Likewise, there are 'swipe' type input keyboards which with some practice, are usable and reasonable for character entry. Don't forget that usage of a QWERTY keyboard actual required learning and practice and there are still a large amount of users who simply use 1 or 2 finger input having never learned to touch type anyway. Then there are extremely portable bluetooth keyboards that can fold up into your pockets... all sorts of options. --- Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that, such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task. I've sat next to them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is a major chore. most of the people using Blackberry's are not necessarily tech savvy - they're somewhat inferior devices. Besides, they have become irrelevant in the marketplace, hemorrhaging money to the point where I wonder if they won't be out of business in 3 years. Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more difficult to use for producing information than PCs at the moment. They are equally as good for those who are primarily consumers of information. Once tablet manufacturers actually decide to deal with issues around printing and getting more effective input methods in place, tablet acceptance will likely take off like a shot. Again, I've watched businessmen playing with their pads. And you're right that they're reasonable for a read-only device (big enough screen, less wieldy to carry around than a laptop and accessories), but nasty for typing anything more than about a sentence or two. As far as coming up with effective input method, there is little else than a proper keyboard for doing extensive typing. And I mean something with physical buttons, that you can feel move. Not just drawing a keyboard on the screen. Now that you're talking about tablets, there's things like Asus Transformer which has a keyboard or the various keyboard 'cases' for iPad so obviously there are other methods - apparently none of which you use. On screen keyboards are reasonable for the younger generation and reasonable for short messaging for most and a plethora of options exist for extended usage. By the way, I watched my daughter (33 y/o) typing on her HTC Incredible today and she was lightning quick - it can be done... just takes practice. Myself, I'm not so quick and I tend to go to voice entry for lengthy stuff. Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very good for fine detail. While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be the most versatile. True - I don't do 'fine' detail on my telephone but 'pinch to zoom' allows you to access magnifications where even a fat finger can be like a needle in many instances. PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well in this coming wave... That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa. Yet, that see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current Gnome debacle). Change doesn't necessarily mean progress. It seems obvious to me that there are 2 schools of thought here and yours is shared by a few. The other school seems to think that the desktop computer is just one of the various forms of computing and that other forms will include small form factors (perhaps like Apple's 3.5 diagonal iPhone) to relatively small 4-5 to 7-8 and larger. Perhaps these small form factors will drop into a laptop type shell (like the Motorola Atrix), wirelessly connect to keyboard, mouse and display when in an home or office environment, etc. Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of the woods in Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the netbooks indicates that the public wants
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 20:38 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: I'm a long time KDE user and survivor of the move to KDE 4. Thought some of you may be interested in the view point of Linus Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is starting to look almost usable. Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell setup and made available in the regular system config thing rather than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that clean default, but make them easy to find and part of the standard install. Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness actually matters. What I did see on the Ubuntu list was a reference to this... http://www.webupd8.org/2011/10/things-to-tweak-after-installing-ubuntu.html which I thought was a rather helpful page and wonder if someone has done something similar for Fedora (though much of the Ubuntu tweaks are suitable for Fedora). One of the things I like about Ubuntu is that there are some resources out there that don't seem to exist for Fedora. and as long as I am quoting linking, I found this quote (attributable to Paul Mauritz of VMWare) to be very intriguing... Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers. http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/can-ubuntu-linux-win-on-smartphones-and-tablets/9843 Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Am 03.12.2011 02:38, schrieb Craig White: Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert maybe some of the self called ui-experts should take a deep breath for one or two years and left the users in peace with their next big thing so that people which are working with their computers are not permanently interrupted linus is not a ui-expert but he has more sensibility what users needs than most of the experts - users are needing workspaces which are not chaning their whole behavior each year Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers. this is nonsense the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years theer are enough people working with their computers and not only webbrowsing and write some mails! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote: On Fri, Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness actually matters. Yes of course, old boy. Quite amusing. More to the point: we tittered when we read that Linus had an opinion, and that some thought his opinions were regarded much more than those found in our ivory towers from which we post to a Fedora mailing list. (Signed) Wilbur Tanenbaum, esq., c. Postscript, Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers. http://www.zdnet.com Say no more! Such evidence is more than enough to establish just cause for amusement! -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote: Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness actually matters. So this is what I hear you saying. Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion does not matter. Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the opinions of end users don't matter. -- A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. -- Douglas Adams in Mostly Harmless -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 02:50 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote: Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers. this is nonsense the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years theer are enough people working with their computers and not only webbrowsing and write some mails! To the contrary, if you know the full context of Paul Maritz's quote here, he actually makes complete sense. I have heard him speak about this in-person and his overall points are very convincing and well-grounded in facts. The *majority* of Internet connected devices will definitely be in the smartphone and tablet category in the next 3 years. That does not mean they will be the *only* devices. Paul also clearly believes that, as a result of this change, Windows as an operating system will continue to lose relevance in the coming years. That's saying a lot considering he is the person who is largely responsible for engineering the dominance of Windows 95 (whether you'd call how he did it cheating or not). He also believes operating systems like Linux will continue to gain in acceptance and popularity over this time frame, but that this will still mainly be from non-PC devices. He often refers to this as the coming Post-PC era. I believe he is largely correct. The fact of the matter is we are already seeing this happen. Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers in low income families because they are cheaper (as in $200 range), constantly connected, and do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.) that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more difficult to use for producing information than PCs at the moment. They are equally as good for those who are primarily consumers of information. Once tablet manufacturers actually decide to deal with issues around printing and getting more effective input methods in place, tablet acceptance will likely take off like a shot. PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well in this coming wave... Chris -- == The best way to sound like you know what you're talking about is to know what you're talking about. --Harvey Mackay -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote: Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness actually matters. So this is what I hear you saying. Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion does not matter. Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the opinions of end users don't matter. I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much). You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is progress. Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/02/2011 07:10 PM, Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote: Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness actually matters. So this is what I hear you saying. Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion does not matter. Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the opinions of end users don't matter. I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much). You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is progress. Change for the sake of change has always been idiotic. In the case of Gnome 2, how many person-hours have been invested for people to customize their work environments? And poof! All gone! But it is very hipcrime to be counter-cultural these days -- why yes, let's poo-poo Linus' opinion -- after all, he's a long time Linux user, whose opinion is ranked by idiots to be slightly lower than those charged with the crime of the current Gnome UI regression. Those who still employ critical thinking might be interested in the logical fallacy we are being subjected to: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#novitatem ...but we already knew that, didn't we? -Scott -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/03/2011 04:10 AM, Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote: Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness actually matters. So this is what I hear you saying. Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion does not matter. Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the opinions of end users don't matter. I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much). ACK. You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is progress. Being one of these long time Linux users, I won't deny there is some truth in what you say. The bigger question is if Gnome 3 is actual progress or an epic fail? When being presented Gnome 3, my feeling were the same as I had when my then-3-year-old nice had proudly presented me here flying horse. Look Uncle, my horse has learned to fly (She had attached a couple of plastic feathers to her plush pony's back and was throwing it into my direction.). Ralf -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:40 -0800, Scott Doty wrote: On 12/02/2011 07:10 PM, Craig White wrote: On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote: On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote: Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness actually matters. So this is what I hear you saying. Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer. Thus, his opinion does not matter. Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user. Thus, the opinions of end users don't matter. I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much). You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is progress. Change for the sake of change has always been idiotic. In the case of Gnome 2, how many person-hours have been invested for people to customize their work environments? And poof! All gone! But it is very hipcrime to be counter-cultural these days -- why yes, let's poo-poo Linus' opinion -- after all, he's a long time Linux user, whose opinion is ranked by idiots to be slightly lower than those charged with the crime of the current Gnome UI regression. Those who still employ critical thinking might be interested in the logical fallacy we are being subjected to: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#novitatem ...but we already knew that, didn't we? Considering... - that you can have your beloved Gnome 2 for at least another 5 years on RHEL 6 (or various rebuilds thereof), - that Fedora embraces the latest technology advances and yes, that includes Gnome, - that approximately 3 years is considered a generation in terms of computer technology which includes everything from hardware to end user interfaces, - that regardless of you feelings of Gnome 3, there are people who actually like it, - that a significant portion of the Gnome code base had aged and needed to be re-written was not merely 'Change for the sake of change', - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different name? Craig -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
Craig White writes: I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much). You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet, you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is progress. It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed, major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any functional replacements, and every time someone points this out, they're told that they're too stupid to know what's good for them, and this is The Better Way. There was a very good rant on Slashdot today, about an apparent army of fired UI experts that, apparently, have nothing better to do than invade existing projects, and remove existing functionality and replace it with rounded corners and gradient background colors. In Gnome 2 I had a usable panel widget that showed my sensors CPU temperature, a small weather widget, and a power management widget that actually showed the watt-hour capacity of my laptop battery, so I can observe it degradation, with every passing month. Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. There's one now, which does not work. I can see why it's broken, it's reading off an internal hardcoded list of /sys paths, and my kernel creates /sys nodes for its eight CPU core thermal sensors that the widget doesn't know anything about, so it just sits there, and tells me I'm running at 0 degrees Celsius. There's still no weather panel wiget, to my knowledge. At one point I have a dim recollection that gnome-power-manager-extras existed, that added a comparable watt-hour popup, but right now nothing like it exists, and the icon just sits there with a single %-age label. And I won't even get started on the clusterfracas with the desktop icons, and the evolution of the have file-manager handle the desktop option in tweaktools. pgpOFMpJYaCEr.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/02/2011 08:48 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote: In Gnome 2 I had a usable panel widget that showed my sensors CPU temperature, a small weather widget, and a power management widget that actually showed the watt-hour capacity of my laptop battery, so I can observe it degradation, with every passing month. Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. There's one now, which does not work. I can see why it's broken, it's reading off an internal hardcoded list of /sys paths, and my kernel creates /sys nodes for its eight CPU core thermal sensors that the widget doesn't know anything about, so it just sits there, and tells me I'm running at 0 degrees Celsius. There's still no weather panel wiget, to my knowledge. At one point I have a dim recollection that gnome-power-manager-extras existed, that added a comparable watt-hour popup, but right now nothing like it exists, and the icon just sits there with a single %-age label. And I won't even get started on the clusterfracas with the desktop icons, and the evolution of the have file-manager handle the desktop option in tweaktools. BTW, I brought up these issues when I updated my laptop to F15, and it was suggested I go tell it to the Gnome usability list. http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability -Scott -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/02/2011 09:02 PM, Craig White wrote: - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different name? Craig Pally, your blathering flamebait regarding Linus' opinion was unwanted, unwelcome, and illustrative of the kind of thinking that idolizes shiny things, without ever having to do real work on a computer. I've personally been using Linux since 1992, Redhat since the Halloween release up until FC1 began, and every release of FC/F up until today -- not that that matters one iota, except to point out just how much you've messed up, Son. Old timers will note that I have attacked nothing but your arguments -- and if that reflects poorly on the arguer, that's for you to figure out. Meanwhile, everybody sees what you just did -- and those with critical thinking skills can see, plainly, the logical fallacies that you are clearly unaware of having uttered. That, too, is your problem -- all because you posted your flame bait. -Scott -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2
On 12/02/2011 09:02 PM, Craig White wrote: - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different name? Craig This is ludicrous. Pally, your blathering flamebait regarding Linus' opinion was unwanted, unwelcome, and illustrative of the kind of thinking that idolizes shiny things, without ever having to do real work on a computer. I've personally been using Linux since 1992, Redhat since the Halloween release up until FC1 began, and every release of FC/F up until today -- not that that matters one iota, except to point out just how much you've messed up, Son. Old timers will note that I have attacked nothing but your arguments -- and if that reflects poorly on the arguer, that's for you to figure out. Meanwhile, everybody sees what you just did -- and those with critical thinking skills can see, plainly, the logical fallacies that you are clearly unaware of having uttered. That, too, is your problem -- all because you posted your flame bait. Hell, isn't it? -Scott -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org