[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
Dear List Although the subject of this thread is labeled "Strumming as basso continuo", the exchange of different list members has to do with how to conduct or organize the harmony in the fingerboard, not at all with strumming. I think the 2 main features of guitarra española de cinco órdenes are on one hand (left), its peculiar harmonic language -all these inversions- and an apparently limited palette. On the other (right) hand, and much more characteristically, strumming. When dealing with an alfabeto piece (a solo or a song) the problem of harmony is solved by the alfabeto itself (inconsistencies aside). If the player wants to give some different colors to harmony, he can use alternative higher chord positions (using Sanz´s Laberintos, for example). But rasgueado is an entirely different matter. The alfabeto notation gives not one single clue on how to realize it. Most of the time you won't even find indicators of up or down strokes. I know of not one single set of original instructions on how to make it -do someone in the list know something about it? We know about trillo, picco and repicco, and little more, but I think the basic thing about strumming is precisely, strumming. The old ones are clear about this. Sanz: Hágase cuenta que la mano derecha que toca la Guitarra es el Maestro de Capilla que lleva el compás, y los dedos de la mano izquierda son los instrumentos y voces que rige y gobierna por ella. The right hand is the chapel master that rules and conducts the instruments and voices, represented by the left hand fingers. I think strumming itself is a powerful tool to make clear the rhetoric of a piece, particularly a song. I think the main job of a guitar player accompanying a singer, or himself, is to shape harmony with the right hand. As someone put it, to illuminate the text from within. The old ones don't give detailed instructions about strumming because, in my opinion, strumming is an elusive art and science. It's something you learn by playing along with your teacher or with the community. Witness the master strummers of Latin American guitars -each instrument has its own complex and unique strumming language- some of these players have an outstanding level of performance and are as virtuosos in their field as any "classic" guitar player. They make what many old Spanish sources say: hacen hablar a la guitarra, they make the guitar speak. Regards eloy To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)
I can competently contribute to this topic.
1. Email is fundamentally a social phenomenon. That means lots
of different people are involved. Give up on uniform compliance
to any protocol. Even machines have a hard time doing that.
2. In general, most people stack discussions with the most recent
reply on top. That's probably more laziness than a conscious
decision.
3. Things get hard to follow when people reply top-down
and bottom-up in the same thread. Maybe a good rule of thumb
would be to follow the lead of the first replier? But given
item 1 above, don't hold your breath... You just have to
deal with it.
4. Sometimes replying inline is much easier, and much more
appropriate.
It helps to say that's what you're doing up front. Also, try to
identify your inline statements clearly.
5. It's a good idea to trim the replies after a certain point. Some
mail clients do that automatically. Personally, I tend to forget
to trim replies. Apologies.
6. We're all trying our best to communicate, foibles notwithstanding.
7. About the [VIHUELA] in the subject... Are you doing that manually?
Or is that put in there by the list server? If the latter, there's
nothing to do about it. For me, I get hundreds of emails a day, and
this label is a good way to sort out these most intriguing messages.
If you label the messages manually, I thank you and hope you
continue.
cud
__
From: Monica Hall
To: Martyn Hodgson
Cc: Vihuelalist
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 8:45 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)
I fear this is a lost cause. We will never get everyone to conform.
But I
think that it is usually better to put one's reply at the top of the
message. It is not helpful in anyway to have to scroll though pages of
junk to find out what the writer has said.
Having said that - I think it is sometimes necessary to reply point by
point
to a message rather than in one go. I suppose you could copy and paste
bits from the previous message but that is a bit time consuming.
You are right about the headings. Just one query. Should we always
put
[VIHUELA] before the sugject matter?
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Vihuelalist" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Cc: "Monica Hall" <[3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 10:07 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)
>
> I much prefer to have a sequential record of a discussion/thread
rather
> than having to go back to laboriously search for the relevant email
to
> see precisely what was said umpteen emails ago. As it is, the
> well-recognised problem with this particular mode of communication
is
> that many/most people often only skim a message (I count myself
guilty
> sometimes) and if, by deleting earlier messages, we loose what was
> actually said (short of an even more time consuming search of
archives)
> then any check on accuracy is also lost.
>
> I also prefer to have the most recent message at the top rather than
> mixed in with the previous one (which can lead to selective quotes)
or
> at the bottom which, clearly, if a long thread also involves much
> scrolling down and time wasting.
>
> Surely if a consistent system is followed whereby messages are
always
> replied at the top with the previous ones below in date order then
> nothing is lost. If someone doesn't want to scroll down then they
don't
> have to.
>
> One other thing: I think it important to change the subject heading
> when there's a significant change in content. Some interesting
threads
> have subject titles which end up bearing little if any relation to
the
> most recent discussion.
>
> Martyn
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 17/12/11, Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
>to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
>To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 15:35
>
>Ah - I think I know what's happening - you've got the wrong end of
> the
> > stick:
> I am glad you know what is happening. It all depends on which end
of
> the
> stick one has got hold of.
> I'm not (and have not as far as I can see) suggesting that an
> > alfabeto accompaniment necessarily converts into a bass line (ie
> the
> > lowest sounding note in each chord would result in the bass line
[VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument
Dear Lex, One hesitates to mention it without 101 caveats, but what about a theorbo in G? Evidence for such an instrument is pretty thin on the ground (pace Praetorius), but at least some of Caccini's songs are in flattish keys which would favour a theorbo in G. I have not played any Caccini for a long time and cannot remember, but could the missing notes be provided by re-tuning the relevant string - e.g. have F# at the expense of F natural - or are there songs where you need both? The other possibility is that Caccini did not have only the theorbo in mind, but wrote bass parts for all instruments, expecting the player to adapt what he saw for his own particular instrument. Lutes were more common than theorboes, and may have been used by at least some people buying Caccini's book. The "missing" chromatic notes would have been available as stopped notes on the lute. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Lex Eisenhardt [mailto:eisenha...@planet.nl] Sent: 18 December 2011 21:58 To: Vihuela List; Stewart McCoy Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument Thanks Stewart. It is not that I can't believe that accompanists ever played notes above the line of solo singers or solo instruments; but I rather doubt if Caccini would have written bass lines which he could not play as they are, on his own instrument. Therefore I tried to suggest that he might have accompanied some of his monodies with another instrument than the obvious theorbo in A. With alfabeto we don't care much about the rules of counterpoint, and the cittern parts you mention (which I have not seen) may be closer to the strummed style of the guitar (?) Lex > Dear Lex, > > There is nothing wrong with the bass line of the theorbo crossing above > the tenor here and there, because those high notes are still perceived > as the bass line. > > I have on my lap a copy of _Yorke Solos for Double Bass and Piano_, ed. > Rodney Slatford (London: Yorke Edition, 1984). If the solo part were > played at the written pitch, e.g. by a cello, the piano part would > underpin it, and no-one would bat an eyelid. However, the double bass > sounds an octave lower than written, which theoretically would create > all sorts of unwanted inversions. In practice you hear the lowest piano > notes as the bass line, even though many of them are actually above the > melody notes of the double bass. > > The same phenomenon occurs with tenors singing soprano lines down an > octave. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart McCoy. > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Protocol of emails (again...)
Dear Martyn, Please may I add something to your list of gripes. When people reply to my messages, they often send me the same email twice: one to me and one to the List to which I subscribe. This is unnecessary duplication, since I usually want to read their message no more than once. Sending an ever-growing conversation back and forth, is also unnecessary, and clogs up the memory. (I save all messages.) For the sake of continuity I include the previous message, or only part of it if it is a long one. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson Sent: 18 December 2011 10:07 To: Vihuelalist Cc: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...) I much prefer to have a sequential record of a discussion/thread rather than having to go back to laboriously search for the relevant email to see precisely what was said umpteen emails ago. As it is, the well-recognised problem with this particular mode of communication is that many/most people often only skim a message (I count myself guilty sometimes) and if, by deleting earlier messages, we loose what was actually said (short of an even more time consuming search of archives) then any check on accuracy is also lost. I also prefer to have the most recent message at the top rather than mixed in with the previous one (which can lead to selective quotes) or at the bottom which, clearly, if a long thread also involves much scrolling down and time wasting. Surely if a consistent system is followed whereby messages are always replied at the top with the previous ones below in date order then nothing is lost. If someone doesn't want to scroll down then they don't have to. One other thing: I think it important to change the subject heading when there's a significant change in content. Some interesting threads have subject titles which end up bearing little if any relation to the most recent discussion. Martyn To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Monica, Allison's _Psalmes_ are printed as a table book, similar to the books of lute songs by John Dowland and others. The Cittern parts are in French tablature, and are written upside down on the page above the Cantus and Lute music. The next page has the Altus upside down, the Bassus sideways on, and the Tenor the right way up. If the cittern player were looking at this book, he would find it difficult to read the other parts, apart from the Altus. In his introduction to the Scolar Press facsimile edition, Ian Harwood writes: "There are a good many discrepancies in Allison's book, mainly between lute and cittern, which are too numerous to list here. Sometimes one finds a major-minor clash, which can usually be resolved by reference to the voice-parts. At other times, the cittern may have a chord using the note of the Bassus part as a root position, when in fact it is a first inversion. Both kinds of error, not infrequently found also in instrumental broken consort music, suggest that the cittern part was built up from the Bassus, without much reference to the other voices." Much of this duplicates what you were saying about alfabeto chords for the guitar. The chords for the guitar and the cittern must have been created from the bass line, but without reference to anything else. Some English viol manuscripts have extra part-books for the theorbo. These theorbo bass lines are unfigured, inviting the same sort of discrepancies we have seen with the cittern and the baroque guitar. With all of these instruments you would stumble along when playing the music for the first time, but thereafter you would hopefully remember the gruesome major-minor clashes, and get it right next time. Some of the 6/3-5/3 clashes would not matter so much, particularly chord IV (CEG) and chord IIb (CEA), which together produce what could be an acceptable II7b (CEGA). Whether or not you think these accompaniments may be described as "continuo" is a moot point. My view is that they are all continuo parts. After all, a theorbo man reading a figured bass (which may or may not have appropriate figures for every note) and interpreting those figures as best he can, is no different from a theorbo man reading an unfigured bass and using the Rule of the Octave to achieve the same result. The guitar continuo is realised in the form of alfabeto, and the cittern continuo in French lute tablature, presumably for people who were unable to realise a figured or unfigured bass line themselves. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 18 December 2011 21:40 To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo That's interesting - but surely a competant cittern player would not play them as writen but would correct them? The point I was making is that - yes - the chords have been derived from the bass line but they are wrong because they do not take into account the voice part as well. They do not observe the rules for accompanying a bass line. You wouldn't play what is written and there is indeed some evidence that guitarists were savvy enough to correct blatant errors. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stewart McCoy" To: "Vihuela List" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:31 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo > Dear Monica, > > A similar thing occurs with the cittern parts of Richard Allison's > _Psalmes of David in Meter_ (London, 1599). They would have been derived > from the bass line, but it would have been an unfigured bass, so > major/minor and 6/3-5/3 discrepancies would have been inevitable. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
It may be that he has simply notated the music in a non-specific way so that it is suitable for performance by different instruments. It is left to players to make the necessary adjustments depending on the instrument they chose for the accompaniment. If we are talking about the 1601 book, maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem to specify any particular instrument and surely when publishing it he would want it to be suitable for a range of performers. It is the vocal part which is far more important. He may sometimes have accompanied himself on the theorbo and sometimes on the keyboard depending on the circumstances. You can't be too specific about these things and I don't think you should assume that they had such a narrow approach to the music. That only one size fits. That they never compromised. And so to bed. Monica - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Vihuela List" ; "Stewart McCoy" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:58 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument Thanks Stewart. It is not that I can't believe that accompanists ever played notes above the line of solo singers or solo instruments; but I rather doubt if Caccini would have written bass lines which he could not play as they are, on his own instrument. Therefore I tried to suggest that he might have accompanied some of his monodies with another instrument than the obvious theorbo in A. With alfabeto we don't care much about the rules of counterpoint, and the cittern parts you mention (which I have not seen) may be closer to the strummed style of the guitar (?) Lex Dear Lex, There is nothing wrong with the bass line of the theorbo crossing above the tenor here and there, because those high notes are still perceived as the bass line. I have on my lap a copy of _Yorke Solos for Double Bass and Piano_, ed. Rodney Slatford (London: Yorke Edition, 1984). If the solo part were played at the written pitch, e.g. by a cello, the piano part would underpin it, and no-one would bat an eyelid. However, the double bass sounds an octave lower than written, which theoretically would create all sorts of unwanted inversions. In practice you hear the lowest piano notes as the bass line, even though many of them are actually above the melody notes of the double bass. The same phenomenon occurs with tenors singing soprano lines down an octave. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Thanks Stewart. It is not that I can't believe that accompanists ever played notes above the line of solo singers or solo instruments; but I rather doubt if Caccini would have written bass lines which he could not play as they are, on his own instrument. Therefore I tried to suggest that he might have accompanied some of his monodies with another instrument than the obvious theorbo in A. With alfabeto we don't care much about the rules of counterpoint, and the cittern parts you mention (which I have not seen) may be closer to the strummed style of the guitar (?) Lex Dear Lex, There is nothing wrong with the bass line of the theorbo crossing above the tenor here and there, because those high notes are still perceived as the bass line. I have on my lap a copy of _Yorke Solos for Double Bass and Piano_, ed. Rodney Slatford (London: Yorke Edition, 1984). If the solo part were played at the written pitch, e.g. by a cello, the piano part would underpin it, and no-one would bat an eyelid. However, the double bass sounds an octave lower than written, which theoretically would create all sorts of unwanted inversions. In practice you hear the lowest piano notes as the bass line, even though many of them are actually above the melody notes of the double bass. The same phenomenon occurs with tenors singing soprano lines down an octave. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo
That's interesting - but surely a competant cittern player
would not play them as writen but would correct them?
The point I was
making is that - yes - the chords have been derived from the bass line but
they are wrong because they do not take into account the voice part as well.
They do not observe the rules for accompanying a bass line. You wouldn't
play what is written and there is indeed some evidence that guitarists were
savvy enough to correct blatant errors.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Stewart McCoy"
To: "Vihuela List"
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:31 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Monica,
A similar thing occurs with the cittern parts of Richard Allison's
_Psalmes of David in Meter_ (London, 1599). They would have been derived
from the bass line, but it would have been an unfigured bass, so
major/minor and 6/3-5/3 discrepancies would have been inevitable.
Best wishes,
Stewart McCoy.
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 18 December 2011 12:37
To: Chris Despopoulos
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not
continuous
bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and informed
by
practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
something, at any rate.
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived
from
the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo.
In many cases whoever added the alfabeto has simply added these on the
assumption that the note in the bass part is the root of the chord
without
taking into account the voice part which clearly indicates that a 6/3
chord
is necessary rather than a 5/3. In some instances they add major chords
when there should be minor ones. And they also ignore the basic rule -
that
when the bass rises a semitone - mi-fa - the note on mi should be a
6/3.
Usually 4-3 suspensions are ignored.
And following on what I've read by Craig
Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks,
and
all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this
way.
I think it contributed in a different way. Guitarists themselves -
rather
than the editors who added the alfabeto to printed books - were aware
that
chords were derived from major and minor triads and the notes in the
triad
could be played in any order. They were also more aware of major and
minor
modality.
Regards
Monica
__
From: Monica Hall
To: Martyn Hodgson
Cc: Vihuelalist ; Lex Eisenhardt
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try
and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of
circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2]eisenha...@planet.nl>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
>
> Dear Lex,
>
> A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line
to
be
> realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is
where
the
> tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble
clef)
> but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the
BC
> line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G
natural
is
> also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
> a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual
historically)
> there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
octave
> higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
> singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has
a
d
> and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
> Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
> where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
> octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere
in
the
> piece.
>
> Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes
(or
> even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
> apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especi
[VIHUELA] Strumming as basso continuo
Dear Monica,
A similar thing occurs with the cittern parts of Richard Allison's
_Psalmes of David in Meter_ (London, 1599). They would have been derived
from the bass line, but it would have been an unfigured bass, so
major/minor and 6/3-5/3 discrepancies would have been inevitable.
Best wishes,
Stewart McCoy.
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 18 December 2011 12:37
To: Chris Despopoulos
Cc: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not
continuous
> bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
> supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and informed
by
> practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
> something, at any rate.
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived
from
the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo.
In many cases whoever added the alfabeto has simply added these on the
assumption that the note in the bass part is the root of the chord
without
taking into account the voice part which clearly indicates that a 6/3
chord
is necessary rather than a 5/3. In some instances they add major chords
when there should be minor ones. And they also ignore the basic rule -
that
when the bass rises a semitone - mi-fa - the note on mi should be a
6/3.
Usually 4-3 suspensions are ignored.
And following on what I've read by Craig
> Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks,
and
> all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this
way.
I think it contributed in a different way. Guitarists themselves -
rather
than the editors who added the alfabeto to printed books - were aware
that
chords were derived from major and minor triads and the notes in the
triad
could be played in any order. They were also more aware of major and
minor
modality.
Regards
Monica
__
>
> From: Monica Hall
> To: Martyn Hodgson
> Cc: Vihuelalist ; Lex Eisenhardt
>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
> playing
> an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try
and
> reproduce the bass part in any way.
> You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of
circumstances.
> Monica
> - Original Message -
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier
> question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> >
> > Dear Lex,
> >
> > A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line
to
> be
> > realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is
where
> the
> > tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble
clef)
> > but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the
BC
> > line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G
natural
> is
> > also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
> > a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual
historically)
> > there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
> octave
> > higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
> > singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has
a
> d
> > and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
> > Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
> pieta'
> > where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
> > octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere
in
> the
> > piece.
> >
> > Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes
(or
> > even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
> > apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives
> examples
> > in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
> > transposition for chromatic notes.
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > Martyn
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt <[4]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> wrote:
> >
> >From: Lex Eisenhardt <[5]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> >Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
> Return
> >to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> >To: "Monica Hall" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Martyn Hodgso
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Priase God for the voice of common sense. Monica - Original Message - From: "Stewart McCoy" To: "Vihuela List" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:22 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument Dear Lex, There is nothing wrong with the bass line of the theorbo crossing above the tenor here and there, because those high notes are still perceived as the bass line. I have on my lap a copy of _Yorke Solos for Double Bass and Piano_, ed. Rodney Slatford (London: Yorke Edition, 1984). If the solo part were played at the written pitch, e.g. by a cello, the piano part would underpin it, and no-one would bat an eyelid. However, the double bass sounds an octave lower than written, which theoretically would create all sorts of unwanted inversions. In practice you hear the lowest piano notes as the bass line, even though many of them are actually above the melody notes of the double bass. The same phenomenon occurs with tenors singing soprano lines down an octave. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: 18 December 2011 19:51 To: R. Mattes Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example where this would happen with a theorbo ... Cheers, Ralf Mattes Crossings with the outer voices involved are often considered problematic. There are probably very few examples of a figured bass, rising above the other melodies. In this specific example of the Caccini song it is the tuning of the bass courses of the theorbo in A which invites the idea of playing some notes in a higher octave, above the tenor. It is strikingly different from what he has notated in his own printed score, which may represent what he has played himself. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument
Dear Lex, There is nothing wrong with the bass line of the theorbo crossing above the tenor here and there, because those high notes are still perceived as the bass line. I have on my lap a copy of _Yorke Solos for Double Bass and Piano_, ed. Rodney Slatford (London: Yorke Edition, 1984). If the solo part were played at the written pitch, e.g. by a cello, the piano part would underpin it, and no-one would bat an eyelid. However, the double bass sounds an octave lower than written, which theoretically would create all sorts of unwanted inversions. In practice you hear the lowest piano notes as the bass line, even though many of them are actually above the melody notes of the double bass. The same phenomenon occurs with tenors singing soprano lines down an octave. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: 18 December 2011 19:51 To: R. Mattes Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument > But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with > voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which > would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example > where this would happen with a theorbo ... > > Cheers, Ralf Mattes Crossings with the outer voices involved are often considered problematic. There are probably very few examples of a figured bass, rising above the other melodies. In this specific example of the Caccini song it is the tuning of the bass courses of the theorbo in A which invites the idea of playing some notes in a higher octave, above the tenor. It is strikingly different from what he has notated in his own printed score, which may represent what he has played himself. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
So far no-one has told me where I can find the song in question. Monica - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "R. Mattes" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 7:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example where this would happen with a theorbo ... Cheers, Ralf Mattes Crossings with the outer voices involved are often considered problematic. There are probably very few examples of a figured bass, rising above the other melodies. In this specific example of the Caccini song it is the tuning of the bass courses of the theorbo in A which invites the idea of playing some notes in a higher octave, above the tenor. It is strikingly different from what he has notated in his own printed score, which may represent what he has played himself. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Excellent idea - I love harps. Monica - Original Message - From: "R. Mattes" To: "Monica Hall" ; "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 4:24 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 14:56:46 -, Monica Hall wrote What other instrument do you suppose that he had in mind then? The only instrument with a large enough compass to be able to reproduce the bass line below the voice part in every set of circumstances would be a keyboard instrument and possibly not all of these. Harp, esp. the triple row version. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example where this would happen with a theorbo ... Cheers, Ralf Mattes Crossings with the outer voices involved are often considered problematic. There are probably very few examples of a figured bass, rising above the other melodies. In this specific example of the Caccini song it is the tuning of the bass courses of the theorbo in A which invites the idea of playing some notes in a higher octave, above the tenor. It is strikingly different from what he has notated in his own printed score, which may represent what he has played himself. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:33:43 +0100, Lex Eisenhardt wrote
> Bass lines may sometimes have been simplified, and thus some of
> the problems could be avoided. Occasional voice crossings with the
> bass perhaps were sometimes accepted (but probably not by everyone). L
But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with
voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which
would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example
where this would happen with a theorbo ...
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
> - Original Message -
> From: "Martyn Hodgson"
> To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
> Cc: "Vihuelalist"
> Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:24 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso
> continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar
> [was Re: Capona?]}
>
> >
> > Thanks Lex,
> >
> > Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to
> > accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other
> > instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V
> > 'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto
> > ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che
> > qualunque altro.')
> >
> > Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to
> > accompany himself before 1594.
> >
> > The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended
> > basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously
> > pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a
> > sung d and f# in the bass.
> >
> > I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is
> > certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to
> > perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and
> > Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs
> > by Caccini and his contemporaries.
> >
> > regards
> >
> > Martyn
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
R. Mattes -
Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 14:56:46 -, Monica Hall wrote > What other instrument do you suppose that he had in mind then? The > only instrument with a large enough compass to be able to reproduce > the bass line below the voice part in every set of circumstances > would be a keyboard instrument and possibly not all of these. Harp, esp. the triple row version. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
You yourself have quoted Campion in your article - "it is not necessary to be preoccupied by the jumping of the bass from low to high register. It is sufficient that the note is there . Even on the harpsichord etc" But what Campion doesn't say is whether the bass would rise above other parts. Why should it not be acceptable? Inverting the parts works in practice - for most of us. The discussion was about Caccini and voice crossings. I have no particular interest in what would work for most of you. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Well - as Martyn pointed out - even with a lute in G there are situations where you would have to play an F sharp up an octave even if the instrument had extended basses. There are quite a few later French sources which clearly indicate this. You yourself have quoted Campion in your article - "it is not necessary to be preoccupied by the jumping of the bass from low to high register. It is sufficient that the note is there . Even on the harpsichord etc" Why should it not be acceptable? Inverting the parts works in practice - for most of us. Monica - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 3:33 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 3:56 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument What other instrument do you suppose that he had in mind then? The only instrument with a large enough compass to be able to reproduce the bass line below the voice part in every set of circumstances would be a keyboard instrument and possibly not all of these. Striggio reported that Caccini could accompany from a bass on the lute or keyboard. And there were (arch)lutes around in traditional G tuning. I know that Caccini says that he prefers the chitarrone for accompaniment. But did he always, and for everything? We have a certain situation in one of his songs which would be hard to play on the theorbo in A without raising the bass above the tenor voice. Does that prove conclusively that Caccini accepted voice crossings of bass and tenor? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
- Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 3:56 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument What other instrument do you suppose that he had in mind then? The only instrument with a large enough compass to be able to reproduce the bass line below the voice part in every set of circumstances would be a keyboard instrument and possibly not all of these. Striggio reported that Caccini could accompany from a bass on the lute or keyboard. And there were (arch)lutes around in traditional G tuning. I know that Caccini says that he prefers the chitarrone for accompaniment. But did he always, and for everything? We have a certain situation in one of his songs which would be hard to play on the theorbo in A without raising the bass above the tenor voice. Does that prove conclusively that Caccini accepted voice crossings of bass and tenor? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
What other instrument do you suppose that he had in mind then? The only
instrument with a large enough compass to be able to reproduce the bass line
below the voice part in every set of circumstances would be a keyboard
instrument and possibly not all of these.
But plucked stringed instruments were surely the preferred choice because
of the association with the ancient world. Orpheus with his lyre etc.
To say that "the trouble with historic texts is that we don't know if they
should be interpreted literally" isn't particularly helpful. Who decides
whether we should or should not take them literally?
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Lex Eisenhardt"
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 2:33 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument
The trouble with historic texts is that we don't know if they should be
interpreted literally.
Yes, the chitarrone is in general well-suited for accompaniment. But
should we suppose that Caccini considered the theorbo in A the best option
for every song, in every key?
Bass lines may sometimes have been simplified, and thus some of the
problems could be avoided. Occasional voice crossings with the bass
perhaps were sometimes accepted (but probably not by everyone).
L
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:24 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso
continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re:
Capona?]}
Thanks Lex,
Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to
accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other
instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V
'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto
ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che
qualunque altro.')
Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to
accompany himself before 1594.
The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended
basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously
pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a
sung d and f# in the bass.
I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is
certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to
perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and
Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs
by Caccini and his contemporaries.
regards
Martyn
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument
The trouble with historic texts is that we don't know if they should be
interpreted literally.
Yes, the chitarrone is in general well-suited for accompaniment. But should
we suppose that Caccini considered the theorbo in A the best option for
every song, in every key?
Bass lines may sometimes have been simplified, and thus some of the problems
could be avoided. Occasional voice crossings with the bass perhaps were
sometimes accepted (but probably not by everyone).
L
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:24 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso continuo
{was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex,
Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to
accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other
instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V
'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto
ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che
qualunque altro.')
Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to
accompany himself before 1594.
The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended
basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously
pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a
sung d and f# in the bass.
I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is
certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to
perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and
Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs
by Caccini and his contemporaries.
regards
Martyn
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Well - what I actually said was
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived from
the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo continuo.
There is some evidence that guitarists were indeed smart enough to spot some
of the obvious errors in the printed sources. In his dissertation Adrian
O'Donnell has given some examples of manuscript versions which seem to have
been copied from printed sources but where obviously duff chords have been
changed.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Chris Despopoulos"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:41 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Chris,
I note Monica's comment below about the incorrect alfabeto chords being
used but I think it incorrect to suggest that the alfabeto
accompaniment was never informed by the harmonies implied by the bass
line ("but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo").
To take but one example, Marini's collection of 1622 (eg Il Verno and
many others) certainly responds to the harmonies required by
inversions. I suspect the duff chords found in some other sources are
more to do with the ignorance of the editorial hacks who put alfabeto
to the songs rather than, say, any inherent stylistic guitar trait.
It's analogous to basso continuo figuring where, especially in early
sources, the figuring can be very bare. No doubt this was sometimes
played as found but a reasonably accomplished BC player has no trouble
adding in figures to an unfigured, or partially, or incorrectly figured
bass. I presume, as Monica does, that a reasonably competant guitar
player would soon be able to recognise first inversions and the like.
I think you're right, it is entirely credible that alfabeto
accompaniment was derived from a basso continuo line if that was
present (or just the melodic line if only that was). Of course, as
already pointed out, the converse is not the case.
regards
Martyn
--- On Sun, 18/12/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Chris Despopoulos"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Sunday, 18 December, 2011, 12:37
> Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not
continuous
> bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
> supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and
informed by
> practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
> something, at any rate.
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived
from the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo. In many cases whoever added the alfabeto has simply added
these on the assumption that the note in the bass part is the root of
the chord without taking into account the voice part which clearly
indicates that a 6/3 chord is necessary rather than a 5/3. In some
instances they add major chords when there should be minor ones. And
they also ignore the basic rule - that when the bass rises a semitone -
mi-fa - the note on mi should be a 6/3. Usually 4-3 suspensions are
ignored.
And following on what I've read by Craig
> Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks,
and
> all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this
way.
I think it contributed in a different way. Guitarists themselves -
rather than the editors who added the alfabeto to printed books - were
aware that chords were derived from major and minor triads and the
notes in the triad could be played in any order. They were also more
aware of major and minor modality.
Regards
Monica
__
>
> From: Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt
> <[4]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
> playing
> an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try
and
> reproduce the bass part in any way.
> You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of
circumstances.
> Monica
> - Original Message -
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][6]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
> Subject
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
I will try to follow our newly suggested protocol and reply at the top!
It depends on what you want to do. These songs probably continued to be
performed throughout the 17th century and there is no reason why they should
not be accompanied in the more complex way as illustrated by Foscarini
etc.which involves reproducing the bass line and the harmony in the correct
inversions at least to some extent. Lex's CD illustrates this perfectly.
However it does seem that originally the idea was to accompany oneself as -
so they believed - the ancient Greeks did. And if the guitar was doing the
accompanying this would strum only.
With reference to what Alex Dean says I think that the dissonance is more
likely to result from the interaction of the guitar with the voice part
rather than with the bass part. At the cadence e.g. the voice part may
have the equivalent of a 4-3 suspension but the guitar would accompanay this
with a simple major triad so that the 4th and 3rd sound simultaneously.
But there is also evidence from some of the surviving lute accompaniments
that the voice part may not resolve the suspended 4th at all whilst the
accompanying instrument does. This is referred to as an "elipsis".
So it is difficult to determine to what extent the guitar played a role in
this. I think it did promote an understanding of triadic harmony and also
of course was in the forefront adopting equal temperament which facilitates
transpositiion - very useful for singers.
About stringing I think you should chose whatever method works best for you.
I agree with you that the bourdon on the 5th course does have the effect of
creating an unwanted and inappropriate bass line. I have always used a
bourdon only on the 4th course and possibly because of the different in tone
quality it never sounds so intrusive. (And there is no reason to suppose
that this method of stringing was not used before 1670!) James Tyler does
suggest that fully re-entrant is appropriated for this repertoire.All
that we really know is that there were different methods of stringing and
people had different ideas about the way to go.
Best
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "bud roach"
To: "Martyn Hodgson" ; "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 8:45 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Hello everyone-
I hope I'm going about this the right way, by just responding in the
thread rather than going back to individual messages from the last 24
hours.
Thanks very much to all who took the time to listen to recordings I've
posted. For those who may have missed that message, the link is:
[1]http://www.budroach.com/baroque_guitar.html?r=20111217024548
What I was hoping to garner was a sense of whether or not the simple
alfabeto strumming is considered to be a sufficient accompaniment for
songs from the 1620's, and the general opinion seems to be in the
affirmative. On this issue, Monica and I seem to be in agreement, but
others have introduced suggestions that, in my view, would partly
diminish my goal with this project, which is to recreate what a singer
from the period would have done.
Martyn's suggestion to follow the bass line in certain passages would,
I agree, be musically effective, but would also depart from a "pure"
alfabeto accompaniment. Of course, the odd 4-3 suspension is also a
version of that same departure, and I often do this, but I'm not
convinced that the block harmony of the guitar is the best vehicle for
switching bar to bar from a bass line role to block-ish harmonic
underpinning. The evidence for this can be found in Grandi's third
volume itself. Although titled "Cantade et arie", there are 23 strophic
songs, and only one cantata at the end. Alfabeto is used for every
strophic song, but not the cantata, which incorporates the odd measure
of melodic material in the bass line. The role of the bass in this
piece is clearly different from in the songs, which makes it less
suitable for accompaniment by a lone guitar.
At the risk of tossing too many ideas into the mix, this also touches
on the notion of combining the alfabeto with the printed bass line. I
am intrigued by Alexander Dean's argument that the harmonic dissonance
that would be created (specifically at cadential points) by this
arrangement helped to formulate the evolution of later 17th-century
harmonic practice. However, it again is outside my specific goal of
presenting these songs as a self-accompanied singer.
And, finally, to perhaps drive everyone crazy with a topic that has
been discussed so much in recent threads, I would like to bring out
into the open what Lex has brought up privately- the use of bourdons
in this repertoire. (I can almost hear your groans of despair!) From
what I have read, both from sources
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
All this is very interesting. I couldn't actually track down the song.
Which of Caccini's books is it in?
I had never realized that the mighty theorbo had problems reproducing the
bass line! But from what you say it seems that it is the same as on the
guitar. The lowest note is A with a bourdon. You have to go up an octave
to get the G. This doesn't really matter - it just means that the parts
are sometimes inverted - the "bass" comes above the "treble". Our ears
can adapt to these things.
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:24 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso continuo
{was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex,
Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to
accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other
instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V
'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto
ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che
qualunque altro.')
Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to
accompany himself before 1594.
The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended
basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously
pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a
sung d and f# in the bass.
I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is
certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to
perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and
Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs
by Caccini and his contemporaries.
regards
Martyn
PS Also see my recent message about email protocol, with which you may
not agree...
--- On Sun, 18/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Sunday, 18 December, 2011, 11:11
Dear Martyn,
I understand that there is a problem with the theorbo in A, in
Caccini's 'Reggami.'
According to Alessandro Striggio the elder Caccini could accompany from
a bass on the lute and harpsichord. So, what would be the right
instrument/tuning for this song?
Lex
> Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
> where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
> octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in
the
> piece.
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)
I fear this is a lost cause. We will never get everyone to conform. But I
think that it is usually better to put one's reply at the top of the
message. It is not helpful in anyway to have to scroll though pages of
junk to find out what the writer has said.
Having said that - I think it is sometimes necessary to reply point by point
to a message rather than in one go. I suppose you could copy and paste
bits from the previous message but that is a bit time consuming.
You are right about the headings. Just one query. Should we always put
[VIHUELA] before the sugject matter?
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson"
To: "Vihuelalist"
Cc: "Monica Hall"
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 10:07 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)
I much prefer to have a sequential record of a discussion/thread rather
than having to go back to laboriously search for the relevant email to
see precisely what was said umpteen emails ago. As it is, the
well-recognised problem with this particular mode of communication is
that many/most people often only skim a message (I count myself guilty
sometimes) and if, by deleting earlier messages, we loose what was
actually said (short of an even more time consuming search of archives)
then any check on accuracy is also lost.
I also prefer to have the most recent message at the top rather than
mixed in with the previous one (which can lead to selective quotes) or
at the bottom which, clearly, if a long thread also involves much
scrolling down and time wasting.
Surely if a consistent system is followed whereby messages are always
replied at the top with the previous ones below in date order then
nothing is lost. If someone doesn't want to scroll down then they don't
have to.
One other thing: I think it important to change the subject heading
when there's a significant change in content. Some interesting threads
have subject titles which end up bearing little if any relation to the
most recent discussion.
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 15:35
Ah - I think I know what's happening - you've got the wrong end of
the
> stick:
I am glad you know what is happening. It all depends on which end of
the
stick one has got hold of.
I'm not (and have not as far as I can see) suggesting that an
> alfabeto accompaniment necessarily converts into a bass line (ie
the
> lowest sounding note in each chord would result in the bass line -
even
> if we knew it) but the converse: that a bass line enables one to
> 'realise' a chordal accompaniment (eg alfabeto) on the guitar - not
the
> same thing at all.
I'll take your word for it - there isn't time to go back all over it.
> And, of course, songs with nothing other than alfabeto can't and
> therefore don't show single notes. It's only when mixed tablature
> becomes common that we could expect to start to
> see such realisations. That's quite different to say it's 'wrong'
to
> consider the practice of inserting some bass notes if one has the
bass
> and not just the alfabeto. It's almost as if
> one only saw the alfabeto dances in Calvi (1646) without noticing
his
> intabulated dances later in the same book and concluded he never
wrote
> in two parts.
He didn't write either of them actually. He copied them from
elsewhere. The
alfabeto pieces are copied from Corbetta's 1639 book and the other
pieces
from an unidentified source probably not originally for
guitar. They
belong to two different traditions.
> And I haven't even got round to Valdambrini yet - he seems to
exhibit a
> fine disregard for the precise octave of the bass in his cadential
> examples.
But that is not relevant to earlier alfabeto accompaniments.
>
> And, no, I don't anywhere suggest that if one has a bass line AND
the
> alfabeto one should always seek to amalgamate the two. But I
certainly
> don't think the practice is prohibited by any early contemporary
> sources - hence my suggestion about the performance of the
> Grandi song which has both the alfabeto and the bass line...
It is not a question of whether it is prohibited or not since we do not
have
any surviving instructions. It is a question of what was customary
at the
time the Grandi song appeared in print and earlier - as far as we can
tell
from surviving sources which include written out alfabeto
accompaniments.
These do not give any suggestion at all that any attempt was made to
include
the bass part.
Monica
With reference to Lex ps "could you please stop sending the whole
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Chris,
I note Monica's comment below about the incorrect alfabeto chords being
used but I think it incorrect to suggest that the alfabeto
accompaniment was never informed by the harmonies implied by the bass
line ("but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo").
To take but one example, Marini's collection of 1622 (eg Il Verno and
many others) certainly responds to the harmonies required by
inversions. I suspect the duff chords found in some other sources are
more to do with the ignorance of the editorial hacks who put alfabeto
to the songs rather than, say, any inherent stylistic guitar trait.
It's analogous to basso continuo figuring where, especially in early
sources, the figuring can be very bare. No doubt this was sometimes
played as found but a reasonably accomplished BC player has no trouble
adding in figures to an unfigured, or partially, or incorrectly figured
bass. I presume, as Monica does, that a reasonably competant guitar
player would soon be able to recognise first inversions and the like.
I think you're right, it is entirely credible that alfabeto
accompaniment was derived from a basso continuo line if that was
present (or just the melodic line if only that was). Of course, as
already pointed out, the converse is not the case.
regards
Martyn
--- On Sun, 18/12/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Chris Despopoulos"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Sunday, 18 December, 2011, 12:37
> Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not
continuous
> bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
> supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and
informed by
> practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
> something, at any rate.
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived
from the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo
continuo. In many cases whoever added the alfabeto has simply added
these on the assumption that the note in the bass part is the root of
the chord without taking into account the voice part which clearly
indicates that a 6/3 chord is necessary rather than a 5/3. In some
instances they add major chords when there should be minor ones. And
they also ignore the basic rule - that when the bass rises a semitone -
mi-fa - the note on mi should be a 6/3. Usually 4-3 suspensions are
ignored.
And following on what I've read by Craig
> Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks,
and
> all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this
way.
I think it contributed in a different way. Guitarists themselves -
rather than the editors who added the alfabeto to printed books - were
aware that chords were derived from major and minor triads and the
notes in the triad could be played in any order. They were also more
aware of major and minor modality.
Regards
Monica
__
>
> From: Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> To: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt
> <[4]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
> playing
> an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try
and
> reproduce the bass part in any way.
> You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of
circumstances.
> Monica
> - Original Message -
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2][6]eisenha...@planet.nl>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
> earlier
> question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
> >
> > Dear Lex,
> >
> > A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass
line to
> be
> > realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is
where
> the
> > tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble
clef)
> > but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the
BC
> > line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G
natural
> is
> > also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
> > a theor
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Monica, you're absolutely right that by definition it's not continuous
bass when playing derived harmonies in the alfabeto. I was only
supposing that the harmonies are derived from the bass, and informed by
practice of bajo continuo. In that sense, it's a realization of
something, at any rate.
In theory the harmonies - at least in the printed books - are derived from
the bass line but they are not informed by the practice of bajo continuo.
In many cases whoever added the alfabeto has simply added these on the
assumption that the note in the bass part is the root of the chord without
taking into account the voice part which clearly indicates that a 6/3 chord
is necessary rather than a 5/3. In some instances they add major chords
when there should be minor ones. And they also ignore the basic rule - that
when the bass rises a semitone - mi-fa - the note on mi should be a 6/3.
Usually 4-3 suspensions are ignored.
And following on what I've read by Craig
Russell, it's possible to imagine that the guitar, limits, quirks, and
all, contributed to the development of harmonic thinking in this way.
I think it contributed in a different way. Guitarists themselves - rather
than the editors who added the alfabeto to printed books - were aware that
chords were derived from major and minor triads and the notes in the triad
could be played in any order. They were also more aware of major and minor
modality.
Regards
Monica
__
From: Monica Hall
To: Martyn Hodgson
Cc: Vihuelalist ; Lex Eisenhardt
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 7:32 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
That is all perfectly clear - but has absolutely nothing to do with
playing
an alfabeto accompaniment - because the guitar is not going to try and
reproduce the bass part in any way.
You seem to be me to be confusing two unrelated sets of circumstances.
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[2]eisenha...@planet.nl>
Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 11:47 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier
question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
>
> Dear Lex,
>
> A particular commonly occurring situation requiring the bass line to
be
> realised on the theorbo higher than the upper melodic line is where
the
> tenor sings a notated e' (ie that on the lowest line of treble clef)
> but sounding an octave lower (ie the e in the bass clef) and the BC
> line has a low G# 6 (ie on bottom line of bass clef). If G natural
is
> also frequently required in the piece (as often found) then on
> a theorbo in A (with 6 fingered courses as most usual historically)
> there is no low G# and the player is obliged to take the bass an
octave
> higher - ie top space of the bass clef and thus higher than the
> singer's note. The situation is much the same where the tenor has a
d
> and the theorbo BC is obliged to take a f# in the bass.
> Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
> where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
> octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in
the
> piece.
>
> Chromatic notes are solved in the same way: by putting odd notes (or
> even an entire passage) up an octave - see Ballard 'Methode pour
> apprendre theorbe' (1660) page 10 especially which gives
examples
> in staff notation and in tablature showing the necessary octave
> transposition for chromatic notes.
>
> rgds
>
> Martyn
>
>
> --- On Sat, 17/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt <[4]eisenha...@planet.nl>
wrote:
>
>From: Lex Eisenhardt <[5]eisenha...@planet.nl>
>Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was:
Return
>to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
>To: "Monica Hall" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, "Martyn Hodgson"
><[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
>Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 8:58
>
> Dear Martyn,
> Is there evidence for raising the bass on the theorbo, to even above
> the
> other voices? I understand that chromatic notes in the bass can be a
> problem, but do we know how they solved that?
> Lex
> ps could you please stop sending the whole thread of the discussion
> together
> with your newest posts?
> - Original Message -
> From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Monica Hall" <[2][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[3][11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:46 AM
> Subject: [VIHU
[VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex,
Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to
accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other
instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V
'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto
ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che
qualunque altro.')
Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to
accompany himself before 1594.
The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended
basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously
pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a
sung d and f# in the bass.
I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is
certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to
perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and
Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs
by Caccini and his contemporaries.
regards
Martyn
PS Also see my recent message about email protocol, with which you may
not agree...
--- On Sun, 18/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Sunday, 18 December, 2011, 11:11
Dear Martyn,
I understand that there is a problem with the theorbo in A, in
Caccini's 'Reggami.'
According to Alessandro Striggio the elder Caccini could accompany from
a bass on the lute and harpsichord. So, what would be the right
instrument/tuning for this song?
Lex
> Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
> where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
> octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in
the
> piece.
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Dear Martyn, I understand that there is a problem with the theorbo in A, in Caccini's 'Reggami.' According to Alessandro Striggio the elder Caccini could accompany from a bass on the lute and harpsichord. So, what would be the right instrument/tuning for this song? Lex Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per pieta' where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in the piece. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] PROTOCOL OF EMAILS (again...)
I much prefer to have a sequential record of a discussion/thread rather
than having to go back to laboriously search for the relevant email to
see precisely what was said umpteen emails ago. As it is, the
well-recognised problem with this particular mode of communication is
that many/most people often only skim a message (I count myself guilty
sometimes) and if, by deleting earlier messages, we loose what was
actually said (short of an even more time consuming search of archives)
then any check on accuracy is also lost.
I also prefer to have the most recent message at the top rather than
mixed in with the previous one (which can lead to selective quotes) or
at the bottom which, clearly, if a long thread also involves much
scrolling down and time wasting.
Surely if a consistent system is followed whereby messages are always
replied at the top with the previous ones below in date order then
nothing is lost. If someone doesn't want to scroll down then they don't
have to.
One other thing: I think it important to change the subject heading
when there's a significant change in content. Some interesting threads
have subject titles which end up bearing little if any relation to the
most recent discussion.
Martyn
--- On Sat, 17/12/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return
to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Saturday, 17 December, 2011, 15:35
Ah - I think I know what's happening - you've got the wrong end of
the
> stick:
I am glad you know what is happening. It all depends on which end of
the
stick one has got hold of.
I'm not (and have not as far as I can see) suggesting that an
> alfabeto accompaniment necessarily converts into a bass line (ie
the
> lowest sounding note in each chord would result in the bass line -
even
> if we knew it) but the converse: that a bass line enables one to
> 'realise' a chordal accompaniment (eg alfabeto) on the guitar - not
the
> same thing at all.
I'll take your word for it - there isn't time to go back all over it.
> And, of course, songs with nothing other than alfabeto can't and
> therefore don't show single notes. It's only when mixed tablature
> becomes common that we could expect to start to
> see such realisations. That's quite different to say it's 'wrong'
to
> consider the practice of inserting some bass notes if one has the
bass
> and not just the alfabeto. It's almost as if
> one only saw the alfabeto dances in Calvi (1646) without noticing
his
> intabulated dances later in the same book and concluded he never
wrote
> in two parts.
He didn't write either of them actually. He copied them from
elsewhere. The
alfabeto pieces are copied from Corbetta's 1639 book and the other
pieces
from an unidentified source probably not originally for
guitar. They
belong to two different traditions.
> And I haven't even got round to Valdambrini yet - he seems to
exhibit a
> fine disregard for the precise octave of the bass in his cadential
> examples.
But that is not relevant to earlier alfabeto accompaniments.
>
> And, no, I don't anywhere suggest that if one has a bass line AND
the
> alfabeto one should always seek to amalgamate the two. But I
certainly
> don't think the practice is prohibited by any early contemporary
> sources - hence my suggestion about the performance of the
> Grandi song which has both the alfabeto and the bass line...
It is not a question of whether it is prohibited or not since we do not
have
any surviving instructions. It is a question of what was customary
at the
time the Grandi song appeared in print and earlier - as far as we can
tell
from surviving sources which include written out alfabeto
accompaniments.
These do not give any suggestion at all that any attempt was made to
include
the bass part.
Monica
With reference to Lex ps "could you please stop sending the whole
thread of the discussion together
with your newest posts"? I have deleted an endless stream of junk
from the end of this message.
I suppose we are all such incurable individualists on this list that we
will never agree as to how we should reply to messages.
But I wish that people would delete everything except the points they
are responding to. Whatever may have been "netiquette" in the dim
distant past seems to me irrelevant today. Remember that these
messages are archived and if they are just a mess it is difficult to
refer back to them for useful information.
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index
