Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
I also think it is good idea think to think of the NAE as consisting of an oven even if the oven is only a room at a temperature of 20 C. Harry On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:22 PM, David Roberson wrote: > You are making a valid point. My bet is on the exothermic activity > within the fueled vessel since the other one should behave like any other > random piece of metal. The real question is whether or not enough time was > spent generating heat to eliminate the possible chemical reactions. I > suspect not. And, careful calibration must be established to ensure that a > real difference in temperature exists. > > I approve of the technique of using an oven to establish the operating > core temperature instead of heating windings with electricity. Both > methods should result in the generation of core heat, but using the oven > appears to be a significantly better way to balance the operational > temperature between the two vessels for comparison. > > Dave > > > > -Original Message- > From: H Veeder > To: vortex-l > Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2015 11:26 am > Subject: Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment > > It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret > the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with > "fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic > activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel". > > Harry > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Bob Higgins > wrote: > >> This morning I translated the recent Russian paper, "The Question of >> Excess Heat in Nickel-Hydrogen". If you are interested, you can get a copy >> of the English version from LENR Forum or from my Google drive at: >> >> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Pc25a4cOM2ZzVib0JtOWtyaXc >> >> Bob Higgins >> > >
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
Ok Harry On Oct 20, 2015 4:16 PM, "Bob Higgins" wrote: >From what I saw of their experiment, the thermocouples (k-type) measuring the two vessels were connected in series so that the measurement that came out on the wires was the temperature difference between the two. This may be more accurate than having two absolute thermocouples and subtracting to get a small temperature difference. I believe that the temperature of the empty vessel was presumed to be the temperature of a thermocouple in the "air" nearby. âTâ his portion of the setup is certainly worth some clarification by the authors. â
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
>From what I saw of their experiment, the thermocouples (k-type) measuring the two vessels were connected in series so that the measurement that came out on the wires was the temperature difference between the two. This may be more accurate than having two absolute thermocouples and subtracting to get a small temperature difference. I believe that the temperature of the empty vessel was presumed to be the temperature of a thermocouple in the "air" nearby. This portion of the setup is certainly worth some clarification by the authors. On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:53 PM, H Veeder wrote: > > On Oct 20, 2015 1:41 PM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > > > > H Veeder wrote: > > > >> It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret > the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with > "fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic > activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel". > > > > > > How can you have an endothermic reaction with an empty vessel? > > > > I didn't suggest that. The paper only gives the relative temperature > difference between the two vessels. We are not provided with absolute > temperature measurements of each vessel. Are we to assume that absolute > temperature measurements were made so the fueled vessel was known to be > hotter? > > Harry >
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
Jed, there is contraditional info around, see: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319914002389 (bottom of the page) On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > H Veeder wrote: > > It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret >> the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with >> "fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic >> activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel". >> > > How can you have an endothermic reaction with an empty vessel? > > > Teslaalset wrote: > > >> I wonder whether they took the exothermic effects of hydrogen >> absorption into account. >> > > Hydrogen absorption is endothermic. Adsorption is exothermic but I believe > overall the process is endothermic. See: > > > http://eprints.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/24660/1/5(2)_P71-86.pdf > > - Jed > >
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
On Oct 20, 2015 1:41 PM, "Jed Rothwell" wrote: > > H Veeder wrote: > >> It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with "fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel". > > > How can you have an endothermic reaction with an empty vessel? > I didn't suggest that. The paper only gives the relative temperature difference between the two vessels. We are not provided with absolute temperature measurements of each vessel. Are we to assume that absolute temperature measurements were made so the fueled vessel was known to be hotter? Harry
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
H Veeder wrote: It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret the > temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with "fuel" > ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic activity or > exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel". > How can you have an endothermic reaction with an empty vessel? Teslaalset wrote: > I wonder whether they took the exothermic effects of hydrogen > absorption into account. > Hydrogen absorption is endothermic. Adsorption is exothermic but I believe overall the process is endothermic. See: http://eprints.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/24660/1/5(2)_P71-86.pdf - Jed
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
You are making a valid point. My bet is on the exothermic activity within the fueled vessel since the other one should behave like any other random piece of metal. The real question is whether or not enough time was spent generating heat to eliminate the possible chemical reactions. I suspect not. And, careful calibration must be established to ensure that a real difference in temperature exists. I approve of the technique of using an oven to establish the operating core temperature instead of heating windings with electricity. Both methods should result in the generation of core heat, but using the oven appears to be a significantly better way to balance the operational temperature between the two vessels for comparison. Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder To: vortex-l Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2015 11:26 am Subject: Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with "fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel". Harry On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Bob Higgins wrote: This morning I translated the recent Russian paper, "The Question of Excess Heat in Nickel-Hydrogen". If you are interested, you can get a copy of the English version from LENR Forum or from my Google drive at: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Pc25a4cOM2ZzVib0JtOWtyaXc Bob Higgins
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with "fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel". Harry On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Bob Higgins wrote: > This morning I translated the recent Russian paper, "The Question of > Excess Heat in Nickel-Hydrogen". If you are interested, you can get a copy > of the English version from LENR Forum or from my Google drive at: > > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Pc25a4cOM2ZzVib0JtOWtyaXc > > Bob Higgins >
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
I wonder whether they took the exothermic effects of hydrogen absorption into account. On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 2:38 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > What I would like to emphasize is that the first study described here was > an independent, stand-alone observation of excess heat from the Ni-H > system. There are not many studies like that. All the ones I know of were > inspired by or linked to Mills, Piantelli or Rossi. Such results might be > colored by wishful thinking. Or at least by the knowledge that someone else > claimed heat from Ni-H, and the hope that the claim can be replicated. In > contrast, this result apparently came as a surprise to the researchers. > That is a good thing! It is promising. > > - Jed > >
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
What I would like to emphasize is that the first study described here was an independent, stand-alone observation of excess heat from the Ni-H system. There are not many studies like that. All the ones I know of were inspired by or linked to Mills, Piantelli or Rossi. Such results might be colored by wishful thinking. Or at least by the knowledge that someone else claimed heat from Ni-H, and the hope that the claim can be replicated. In contrast, this result apparently came as a surprise to the researchers. That is a good thing! It is promising. - Jed
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
I believe that the work in this paper is new, but the authors remembered their own previous work with Ni and hydrogen where they saw unexplain-able heat in the 1990s. What distinguishes the new work is the use of LAH in a sealed container. On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Note that this work was done in the 1990s, so it was not affected by Rossi. > > - Jed > >
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
On Mon, 2015-10-19 at 17:26 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Note that this work was done in the 1990s, so it was not affected by > Rossi. The paper references work in the 90s, but the paper and the latest work, is current. Craig > >
Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
Note that this work was done in the 1990s, so it was not affected by Rossi. - Jed
[Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
This morning I translated the recent Russian paper, "The Question of Excess Heat in Nickel-Hydrogen". If you are interested, you can get a copy of the English version from LENR Forum or from my Google drive at: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Pc25a4cOM2ZzVib0JtOWtyaXc Bob Higgins