Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Joao Monteiro]

No, Peter, I confess I haven't. Not because of costs or that I was unaware
of it, but merely because I'm making a genuine effort to stick to Linux
alone, as I do need to learn it as well as I can. Hence, I'm not installing
wine, so that I don't fall for the temptation of resorting to windows when
I need.

I want to be able to find a linux solution for these kind of situations, as
I'm sure it is possible. And if I resort to wìndows every time I stumble
upon a tricky one like this, I'm sabotaging myself and my intentions.
That's my personal mindset on this, of course... will take me time and
patience, but hey... I'm a patient stubborn bugger, lol...

As for the commercial related bit, I already replied to MR and it stands
for here as well...

Tda ;)

On 12 Jul 2017 21:45, "Peter Flynn"  wrote:

> On 07/12/2017 08:45 PM, Joao Monteiro wrote:
> > I have been using Turbocad for nearly two decades and rely heavily on it
> > for my electric schematics. Sadly, the software authors/company never
> > provided any drivers for linux. And after a fairly deep search for
> > alternatives, the odd couple of them available are exceedingly
> > inadequate and unstable in behaviour for my cad needs.
>
> Have you tried Codeweavers WINE? It's a well-supported commercial fork
> of WINE, which provides a Windows environment inside Linux/Mac. I use it
> on the occasions where I specifically need to use Microsoft Word instead
> of Libre Office. I think it's $50 or something like that. You will need
> a fast machine with lots of memory but IMHO it's well worth it.
>
> > Not a Linux shortcoming, see... just one of the many cases where
> > authors/developers don't bother considering linux usage for it when
> > developing it.
>
> The clue is in your first sentence ("for nearly two decades"). Twenty
> years ago, Linux was niche and hardly even known by Windows or Mac
> developers. It's quite common for an old codebase like Turbocad to be so
> heavily rooted in the Windows way of doing things that creating a Linux
> version would be too expensive for the small number of users.
>
> Despite the fact that Mac OS X is basically Linux, the differences both
> in code standards and in the display manager make it a majot task to
> develop a Linux version.
>
> > So the question obviously is: why don't software developers in some
> > areas even bother with linux when developing their applications?
>
> Many commercial software companies are also very poorly informed about
> Linux and other Open Source platforms. There is a huge amount of both
> misinformation and disinformation in the very narrow scope of business
> decision makers, so unless the decision is simple and quick and
> profitable, they will not take it.
>
> ///Peter
>
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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[MR ZenWiz]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Joao Monteiro  wrote:
> MR, can you please clarify me what "to bottom post" means, as I don't want
> to break any etiquette. And also what FOSS means.
>
Bottom posting is what almost everyone this list does - reply
underneath the original post so as to preserve the proper visual order
of entries.

FOSS - Free Open Source Software.  Google is handy for simple
questions like this.


> As for your reply... yes, to a great extent you are right. But what many in
> the linux world don't like or wish to acknowledge, is that another reason
> might be the countless disjointed distros... and nobody to explain to them
> that they can ignore the userland and focus on the kernel only, as their
> aplication will after all be just another userland running on it... if I'm
> understanding this whole thing right, that is...
>

It's just more work for little perceived return.  The Linux desktop
market is miniature compared to Windows and MAC.  OTOH, there are
hundreds of Android apps for all different versions and level of
Android OS.  Most apps for Linux built on one system tend to be
compatible with others within a certain range of kernel releases.
Given that there are two main paid support systems (Red Hat and SuSE),
covering those and also Debian/Ubuntu/Mint would include the majority
of distros without too much effort, but the ROI isn't high.

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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate -- TANSTAAFL AKA "FOSS vs Proprietary"

[Joao Monteiro]

Really hard, not impossible, Guan. Where there is a will, there is a way.
And there's a will already... with patience, the way will come ;)

On 13 Jul 2017 00:55, "Guang Chao"  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Richard Owlett 
> wrote:
>
>> TANSTAAFL == "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
>> q.v. 
>>
>> Disclaimer: Though I use Debian rather than Ubuntu, I often find this
>> forum useful.
>>
>
> Same to me.  I mean I find useful.  But I guess many Linux user don't use
> just one particular distro.  For me, Debian for servers and Ubuntu on my
> desktop.
>
>
>>
>> On 07/12/2017 02:01 AM, Joao Monteiro wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> For those who may not have read it in the thread where I mentioned
>>> it, the purpose of this thread is simple:
>>>
>>> My humble way of giving a contribution to the community within my
>>> rookie means, in a threefold manner...
>>>
>>
>> Don't knock it. Not only do you recognize (perhaps unconsciously)
>> TANSTAAFL, but you saw a means to contribute by means other than
>> programming. Other ways include proof reading &/or writing documentation
>> and filing good bug reports.
>>
>
> Good docs are really hard to do, but is super useful.  Very few open
> source projects can boast of great docs.
>
>
>>
>>
>>> 1) The original subject of a thread usually gets lost in the twists
>>> and turns that the replies take, often going astray into subjects
>>> that have nothing to do with their original subject.
>>>
>>
>> I assume you are referring to
>> .
>>
>>
>> When that deviation from the original sibject happens, people are
>>> welcome to bring that deviation into here. That way the threads can
>>> remain as useful references to their titled subjects and with
>>> valuable info pertaining to that subject alone
>>>
>>
>> You have chosen one of the possible solutions, one appropriate to your
>> apparent goals.
>> In this post I chose a different method to achieve two goals:
>>   A. maintain close relationship to original thread.
>>   B. identify aspect of interest.
>>
>>
>>> 2) To bring forth insights into pros and cons of one too many things
>>> linux related and
>>>
>>> 3) To gather as many and varied views and opinions - preferably with
>>> sensible explanations as to "why" - as possible, which can bring
>>> precious insights into the needs and expectations that users have
>>> from their particular linux distro (in this case xubuntu xfce);
>>> a graphical or musical user will have different needs and
>>> expectations than a math teacher, an
>>> average user, a programmer, a forensic analyst, etc...
>>>
>>> This can in due course offer a substantial picture, map, of what is
>>> lacking, what can be improved and how, etc...
>>>
>>> I have asked Ralph to please be the Prosecutor beating the crap out
>>> of me, who will be the horned bugger's advocate :)  I hope he
>>> accepts, as he has very good views and strong opinions well
>>> reasoned...
>>>
>>> So... I'll open it with a subject that is pertinent enough to have
>>> some buying me a coffee and others hanging me by my balls :)
>>>
>>> Give me a few minutes to dawn a pair of kevlar undies and I'll kick
>>> start the fuss :)
>>>
>>>
>> I classify software differently than some people. I have a strong
>> preference for FOSS for its emphasis on "free/libre" as in "free" speech.
>> This is in contrast to "free/gratis". NOTE BENE: there there are many cases
>> where proprietary software is available gratis - e.g. proprietary device
>> drivers.
>>
>> I've been a computer *USER* since taking a required programming course as
>> an E.E. student in the early 60's. My PC's have ranged from a Kim with 1k
>> RAM, through some CPM-80 systems with 16-64k to my my current 3GB Debian
>> Stretch systems [with long detour using MS DOS -> WinXP].
>>
>> I abandoned MS when they drifted from being a useful tool to requiring me
>> to think in line with "the ONE true path" The final break was they
>> effectively wanted me to rent new software that didn't meet my
>> needs/desires any better than nominally obsolete product.
>>
>> It is often not recognized that Microsoft, Apple, Canonical, Red Hat,
>> Debian, and Ubuntu have something very much in common. They have one
>> purpose in mind - providing product that matches their specific view of
>> what the customer needs. I tried multiple distros - Debian was the best fit
>> for _me_ [sometimes in hard to explicitly define ways].
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailm
>> an/listinfo/xubuntu-users
>>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate -- TANSTAAFL AKA "FOSS vs Proprietary"

[Joao Monteiro]

Hi Richard,

Thanks. Not knocking it, just being realist and aware of my own limitations
- and capabilities alike, of course.

Yes, I did find a way indeed... which is why I sustain that if I can do it,
everybody can. And yet, I'm aware that there's a myriad of reasons why
sometimes we may not be able to go ahead with our good intentions... time
constraints, financial constraints, etc, to name just two of the most
common in this day and age.

There IS actually something as a free lunch in all the sense of the concept
of "free". I could draw attentions to this very xubuntu community as a good
example and prove it in unmistakeable and irrefutable terms, but it
wouldn't serve any significant purpose right now... rather than elicit a
never ending arguing about the sex of the angels... futile and pointless,
lol...

I'm glad you chose this approach and stated your goals for it... firstly
because that's pretty much what I'd love to see this thread achieving
(encouraging a variety of views, opinions, etc) and secondly because it
gives me the opportunity to earn my bread as a devil's advocate, so to
speak, hehehe...

You said: "

It is often not recognized that Microsoft, Apple, Canonical, Red Hat,
Debian, and Ubuntu have something very much in common. They have one
purpose in mind - providing product that matches their specific view of
what the customer needs. I tried multiple distros - Debian was the best fit
for _me_ [sometimes in hard to explicitly define ways].

OK, good that you found one that suits you. However, you still settled for
one of the main stream ones. And that's why there's so many varied distros
out there. Some people can't find one that suits them, so they make use of
linux's powerful versatility to grab a main stream one, tweak it and alter
it to suit their needs and then make it available for whomever else to use
if they like it.

Great. Problem is that potential users aren't necessarilly
programming-capable and if the author(s) of a distro stop developing it or
maintaining it, those users will sooner or later be back on the search road
for another one.

And that's a massive downside factor to most.

Lastly, isn't the purpose of every distro "maker", the same as you stated?
Of course it is.

Where it gets messy, though, is here... the "makers" of distros, OS's, etc,
are programmers and programmers - by the very nature of the skillsets that
made them programmers - have great difficulty understanding the needs and
mindsets of the average user who has no programming knowledge, aptitude or
intention to learn anything remotely resembling "programming".

The average user is a typical consumer, with a consumer's mindset... s/he
wants to grab a computer loaded with "something" that allows them to power
it up and start typing away, pointing and clicking to get whatever they
need done.

That's what Bill Gates understood and the reason of the success of windows.

This xubuntu xfce that I'm irredimibly in love with, seems to have been
created by programmers who have to some extent realized this as well and
even felt that exact need to some extent as well.

As such, I do see it as a potential serious alternative to desperate
windows users yearning for a windows alternative.

The mistake that many hurriedly make is to misinterpret this as being a way
of trying to turn linux into a replacement alternative to windows as a
focus of the development of the distro.

No. It is not.

Becoming a replacement alternative to windows comes unavoidably as a
NATURAL CONSEQUENCE of the development and improvement of the distro.
That's what need to be understood, imo...

Tda :)








On 12 Jul 2017 15:27, "Richard Owlett"  wrote:

TANSTAAFL == "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
q.v. 

Disclaimer: Though I use Debian rather than Ubuntu, I often find this forum
useful.

On 07/12/2017 02:01 AM, Joao Monteiro wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> For those who may not have read it in the thread where I mentioned
> it, the purpose of this thread is simple:
>
> My humble way of giving a contribution to the community within my
> rookie means, in a threefold manner...
>

Don't knock it. Not only do you recognize (perhaps unconsciously)
TANSTAAFL, but you saw a means to contribute by means other than
programming. Other ways include proof reading &/or writing documentation
and filing good bug reports.


> 1) The original subject of a thread usually gets lost in the twists
> and turns that the replies take, often going astray into subjects
> that have nothing to do with their original subject.
>

I assume you are referring to
.


When that deviation from the original sibject happens, people are
> welcome to bring that deviation into here. That way the threads can
> remain as useful references to their titled subjects and with
> valuable info pertaining to that subject alone
>

You have chosen one of the 

Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate -- TANSTAAFL AKA "FOSS vs Proprietary"

[Guang Chao]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Richard Owlett 
wrote:

> TANSTAAFL == "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
> q.v. 
>
> Disclaimer: Though I use Debian rather than Ubuntu, I often find this
> forum useful.
>

Same to me.  I mean I find useful.  But I guess many Linux user don't use
just one particular distro.  For me, Debian for servers and Ubuntu on my
desktop.


>
> On 07/12/2017 02:01 AM, Joao Monteiro wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> For those who may not have read it in the thread where I mentioned
>> it, the purpose of this thread is simple:
>>
>> My humble way of giving a contribution to the community within my
>> rookie means, in a threefold manner...
>>
>
> Don't knock it. Not only do you recognize (perhaps unconsciously)
> TANSTAAFL, but you saw a means to contribute by means other than
> programming. Other ways include proof reading &/or writing documentation
> and filing good bug reports.
>

Good docs are really hard to do, but is super useful.  Very few open source
projects can boast of great docs.


>
>
>> 1) The original subject of a thread usually gets lost in the twists
>> and turns that the replies take, often going astray into subjects
>> that have nothing to do with their original subject.
>>
>
> I assume you are referring to
> .
>
>
> When that deviation from the original sibject happens, people are
>> welcome to bring that deviation into here. That way the threads can
>> remain as useful references to their titled subjects and with
>> valuable info pertaining to that subject alone
>>
>
> You have chosen one of the possible solutions, one appropriate to your
> apparent goals.
> In this post I chose a different method to achieve two goals:
>   A. maintain close relationship to original thread.
>   B. identify aspect of interest.
>
>
>> 2) To bring forth insights into pros and cons of one too many things
>> linux related and
>>
>> 3) To gather as many and varied views and opinions - preferably with
>> sensible explanations as to "why" - as possible, which can bring
>> precious insights into the needs and expectations that users have
>> from their particular linux distro (in this case xubuntu xfce);
>> a graphical or musical user will have different needs and
>> expectations than a math teacher, an
>> average user, a programmer, a forensic analyst, etc...
>>
>> This can in due course offer a substantial picture, map, of what is
>> lacking, what can be improved and how, etc...
>>
>> I have asked Ralph to please be the Prosecutor beating the crap out
>> of me, who will be the horned bugger's advocate :)  I hope he
>> accepts, as he has very good views and strong opinions well
>> reasoned...
>>
>> So... I'll open it with a subject that is pertinent enough to have
>> some buying me a coffee and others hanging me by my balls :)
>>
>> Give me a few minutes to dawn a pair of kevlar undies and I'll kick
>> start the fuss :)
>>
>>
> I classify software differently than some people. I have a strong
> preference for FOSS for its emphasis on "free/libre" as in "free" speech.
> This is in contrast to "free/gratis". NOTE BENE: there there are many cases
> where proprietary software is available gratis - e.g. proprietary device
> drivers.
>
> I've been a computer *USER* since taking a required programming course as
> an E.E. student in the early 60's. My PC's have ranged from a Kim with 1k
> RAM, through some CPM-80 systems with 16-64k to my my current 3GB Debian
> Stretch systems [with long detour using MS DOS -> WinXP].
>
> I abandoned MS when they drifted from being a useful tool to requiring me
> to think in line with "the ONE true path" The final break was they
> effectively wanted me to rent new software that didn't meet my
> needs/desires any better than nominally obsolete product.
>
> It is often not recognized that Microsoft, Apple, Canonical, Red Hat,
> Debian, and Ubuntu have something very much in common. They have one
> purpose in mind - providing product that matches their specific view of
> what the customer needs. I tried multiple distros - Debian was the best fit
> for _me_ [sometimes in hard to explicitly define ways].
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> xubuntu-users mailing list
> xubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailm
> an/listinfo/xubuntu-users
>



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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Guang Chao]

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 3:45 AM, Joao Monteiro 
wrote:

> Haha, noticed lol...
>
> I have been using Turbocad for nearly two decades and rely heavily on it
> for my electric schematics. Sadly, the software authors/company never
> provided any drivers for linux. And after a fairly deep search for
> alternatives, the odd couple of them available are exceedingly inadequate
> and unstable in behaviour for my cad needs.
>
> Not a Linux shortcoming, see... just one of the many cases where
> authors/developers don't bother considering linux usage for it when
> developing it.
>
> So the question obviously is: why don't software developers in some areas
> even bother with linux when developing their applications?
>

It depends on target market.  If target is desktop users, then Linux is
just a minority.  Analogy is, if you will write an app for mobile, will you
write for Tizen? Or just focus on Android and iOS?


>
> I leave it at that... ;)
>
> On 12 Jul 2017 19:06, "Ralf Mardorf"  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 19:51:46 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> >On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:33:09 +0100, Joao Monteiro wrote:
>> >>- CAD wise, linux is still useless
>> >
>> >I can't speak about the software, but at least some people are
>> >satisfied with Linux for CAT.
>>   ^^^ *lol*
>> Not a joke, just a typo.
>>
>> > The real-time patches seem to work. Much
>> >likely it's the same as for pro-audio, which is my domain. How much
>> >MIDI jitter I get depends less on a patched real-time kernel, but
>> >much more on the hardware
>>
>>
>> --
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>> xubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com
>> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailm
>> an/listinfo/xubuntu-users
>>
>
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>


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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Peter Flynn]

On 07/12/2017 08:45 PM, Joao Monteiro wrote:
> I have been using Turbocad for nearly two decades and rely heavily on it
> for my electric schematics. Sadly, the software authors/company never
> provided any drivers for linux. And after a fairly deep search for
> alternatives, the odd couple of them available are exceedingly
> inadequate and unstable in behaviour for my cad needs.

Have you tried Codeweavers WINE? It's a well-supported commercial fork
of WINE, which provides a Windows environment inside Linux/Mac. I use it
on the occasions where I specifically need to use Microsoft Word instead
of Libre Office. I think it's $50 or something like that. You will need
a fast machine with lots of memory but IMHO it's well worth it.

> Not a Linux shortcoming, see... just one of the many cases where
> authors/developers don't bother considering linux usage for it when
> developing it.

The clue is in your first sentence ("for nearly two decades"). Twenty
years ago, Linux was niche and hardly even known by Windows or Mac
developers. It's quite common for an old codebase like Turbocad to be so
heavily rooted in the Windows way of doing things that creating a Linux
version would be too expensive for the small number of users.

Despite the fact that Mac OS X is basically Linux, the differences both
in code standards and in the display manager make it a majot task to
develop a Linux version.

> So the question obviously is: why don't software developers in some
> areas even bother with linux when developing their applications?

Many commercial software companies are also very poorly informed about
Linux and other Open Source platforms. There is a huge amount of both
misinformation and disinformation in the very narrow scope of business
decision makers, so unless the decision is simple and quick and
profitable, they will not take it.

///Peter

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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[MR ZenWiz]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Joao Monteiro  wrote:
> Haha, noticed lol...
>
> I have been using Turbocad for nearly two decades and rely heavily on it for
> my electric schematics. Sadly, the software authors/company never provided
> any drivers for linux. And after a fairly deep search for alternatives, the
> odd couple of them available are exceedingly inadequate and unstable in
> behaviour for my cad needs.
>
> Not a Linux shortcoming, see... just one of the many cases where
> authors/developers don't bother considering linux usage for it when
> developing it.
>
> So the question obviously is: why don't software developers in some areas
> even bother with linux when developing their applications?
>
> I leave it at that... ;)
>

That's easy - they do not perceive the Linux market to be large enough
to warrant the development effort (which is odd considering that it's
very close to UNIX, a la MAC).

There is also the pervading FOSS environment that prevails in Linux systems.

Please bottom post as per the list etiquette rules.

MR

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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Joao Monteiro]

Haha, noticed lol...

I have been using Turbocad for nearly two decades and rely heavily on it
for my electric schematics. Sadly, the software authors/company never
provided any drivers for linux. And after a fairly deep search for
alternatives, the odd couple of them available are exceedingly inadequate
and unstable in behaviour for my cad needs.

Not a Linux shortcoming, see... just one of the many cases where
authors/developers don't bother considering linux usage for it when
developing it.

So the question obviously is: why don't software developers in some areas
even bother with linux when developing their applications?

I leave it at that... ;)

On 12 Jul 2017 19:06, "Ralf Mardorf"  wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 19:51:46 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> >On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:33:09 +0100, Joao Monteiro wrote:
> >>- CAD wise, linux is still useless
> >
> >I can't speak about the software, but at least some people are
> >satisfied with Linux for CAT.
>   ^^^ *lol*
> Not a joke, just a typo.
>
> > The real-time patches seem to work. Much
> >likely it's the same as for pro-audio, which is my domain. How much
> >MIDI jitter I get depends less on a patched real-time kernel, but
> >much more on the hardware
>
>
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Re: [xubuntu-users] Rookie question on backups

[Peter Flynn]

On 07/12/2017 05:58 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 11:31:57 +0800, Guang Chao wrote:
>> no one is paid
> 
> Hi,
> 
> JFTR "free" is for "libre", not for "gratis". 

An important point, often missed.

There *are* a few people paid...there are some Open Source based
companies whose work involves implementation, but where some of the work
is also development, and some where employees can spend time on
development of selected packages. But there are not many.

The biggest difference is that without a marketing department, there is
hardly anyone to get out there and sell the concept of Open Source full
time (we are all evangelists, fortunately); and without a usability
department, there is no-one to enforce rules about interaction design
(you listening, GIMP?) or uniformity of interface behaviour (most devs
try hard, but they need more support).

///Peter


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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 19:51:46 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:33:09 +0100, Joao Monteiro wrote:  
>>- CAD wise, linux is still useless
>
>I can't speak about the software, but at least some people are
>satisfied with Linux for CAT.  
  ^^^ *lol*
Not a joke, just a typo.

> The real-time patches seem to work. Much
>likely it's the same as for pro-audio, which is my domain. How much
>MIDI jitter I get depends less on a patched real-time kernel, but
>much more on the hardware


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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:33:09 +0100, Joao Monteiro wrote:
>- CAD wise, linux is still useless

I can't speak about the software, but at least some people are
satisfied with Linux for CAT. The real-time patches seem to work. Much
likely it's the same as for pro-audio, which is my domain. How much
MIDI jitter I get depends less on a patched real-time kernel, but
much more on the hardware.


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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate -- TANSTAAFL AKA "FOSS vs Proprietary"

[Richard Owlett]

TANSTAAFL == "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
q.v. 

Disclaimer: Though I use Debian rather than Ubuntu, I often find this 
forum useful.


On 07/12/2017 02:01 AM, Joao Monteiro wrote:

Hi all,

For those who may not have read it in the thread where I mentioned
it, the purpose of this thread is simple:

My humble way of giving a contribution to the community within my
rookie means, in a threefold manner...


Don't knock it. Not only do you recognize (perhaps unconsciously) 
TANSTAAFL, but you saw a means to contribute by means other than 
programming. Other ways include proof reading &/or writing documentation 
and filing good bug reports.




1) The original subject of a thread usually gets lost in the twists
and turns that the replies take, often going astray into subjects
that have nothing to do with their original subject.


I assume you are referring to
.



When that deviation from the original sibject happens, people are
welcome to bring that deviation into here. That way the threads can
remain as useful references to their titled subjects and with
valuable info pertaining to that subject alone


You have chosen one of the possible solutions, one appropriate to your 
apparent goals.

In this post I chose a different method to achieve two goals:
  A. maintain close relationship to original thread.
  B. identify aspect of interest.



2) To bring forth insights into pros and cons of one too many things
linux related and

3) To gather as many and varied views and opinions - preferably with
sensible explanations as to "why" - as possible, which can bring
precious insights into the needs and expectations that users have
from their particular linux distro (in this case xubuntu xfce);
a graphical or musical user will have different needs and
expectations than a math teacher, an
average user, a programmer, a forensic analyst, etc...

This can in due course offer a substantial picture, map, of what is
lacking, what can be improved and how, etc...

I have asked Ralph to please be the Prosecutor beating the crap out
of me, who will be the horned bugger's advocate :)  I hope he
accepts, as he has very good views and strong opinions well
reasoned...

So... I'll open it with a subject that is pertinent enough to have
some buying me a coffee and others hanging me by my balls :)

Give me a few minutes to dawn a pair of kevlar undies and I'll kick
start the fuss :)



I classify software differently than some people. I have a strong 
preference for FOSS for its emphasis on "free/libre" as in "free" 
speech. This is in contrast to "free/gratis". NOTE BENE: there there are 
many cases where proprietary software is available gratis - e.g. 
proprietary device drivers.


I've been a computer *USER* since taking a required programming course 
as an E.E. student in the early 60's. My PC's have ranged from a Kim 
with 1k RAM, through some CPM-80 systems with 16-64k to my my current 
3GB Debian Stretch systems [with long detour using MS DOS -> WinXP].


I abandoned MS when they drifted from being a useful tool to requiring 
me to think in line with "the ONE true path" The final break was they 
effectively wanted me to rent new software that didn't meet my 
needs/desires any better than nominally obsolete product.


It is often not recognized that Microsoft, Apple, Canonical, Red Hat, 
Debian, and Ubuntu have something very much in common. They have one 
purpose in mind - providing product that matches their specific view of 
what the customer needs. I tried multiple distros - Debian was the best 
fit for _me_ [sometimes in hard to explicitly define ways].












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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Joao Monteiro]

Fair enough Ralph and I respect your opinion. Yet, allow me to ask you to
consider that you may have misunderstood my purpose for this thread and to
say that in my opinion it is a pitty if you choose to not jump into it
because you do have very good and strong views on all this, that can bring
equally good insights into a lot of it for everybody's beneffit - and not
least of all for the beneffit of xubuntu itself...

But again, that's just my opinion and I respect your decision... though
hoping you reconsider and come back to beat me left right and centre :)

Kind Regards

Joao

On 12 Jul 2017 08:17, "Ralf Mardorf"  wrote:

Hi,

while it's a good idea to open a new thread, instead of becoming
off-topic for another thread, I guess it's not useful to continue this
discussion. At least I've said what I wanted to contribute to this
discussion.

Regards,
Ralf

PS:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-users/2017-July/010231.html


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Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Joao Monteiro]

Right. Comparisons.

As much as they may be unfair, not sensible or even downright absurd, they
are an intrinsic part of life - and of our human nature. That's a fact.

A substantial part of the decisions that we make in our everyday lives are
based on the conclusions that we make after making some comparisons.

So...

Do I need a computer? For what? Then what do I expect it to be able to do
in order to allow me to get what I need through using it?

Need. Purpose. Expectation.

Ok, now that I have answered the initial critical questions, I got to ask
the easy, trivial one... which computer do I buy?

Oh... lo and behold... I NEED to check a few different ones... and after
COMPARING their specifications, I DECIDE which one I think it will meet my
EXPECTATIONS to achieve the PURPOSE that I aim to achieve...

Ok... tiny problem here... different operating systems available... hell, I
don't even know what a hell that is... I only know that I have a few
choices available, which people call "wndows", "mac os", "unix", "linux",
"solaris" damn go figure how many more... h... I know... I"ll
look at the ones that people use the most... ah, good, down to two...
windows and linux... ok...

Start from scratch...

How does one and the other do what I expect them to do so as to fulfil my
need to achieve my purpose??? Damn... more comparisons... sigh... ok...
let's see...

Hmmm... both have prons and cons to me... crap

Being the devil's advocate, I have to give to Caeser what's of Caeser. And
given that I'm a life long dependant of windows and that I never liked
anything Mac, I have to stick to windows and linux and leave all other
systems aside.

So... without going into the myriad of "why" yet, here's some facts:

- Games wise, windows is the supreme king, for the better or the worse

- CAD wise, linux is still useless - compared to windows of course

- Command line wise, linux is undeniably and unarguably much more powerful
and infinitely more versatile and useful than windows

- Help files wise, in an organized, structured  and centralized manner,
windows is far better

-Help files wise, in quantitative and quality terms, linux is far better

Bearing in mind that I'm a newcomer to computers, and a mere user rather
than a programmer or someone with a programming inclination, the GUI nature
of windows is far more appealing and easier to grasp and work with than the
more Command Line nature of linux, albeit its excellent improvements in the
GUI field in recent years.

Furthermore, as a user, when I look into windows I am faced with a single
system that gets updated to a newer version every so often, that can run on
any PC or laptop that meets a certain hardware criteria. Whereas when I
look into linux, I am confronted with a vast multitude of different
versions (distros), each requiring its own hardware criteria and a quagmire
of uncertainties about how long is each one of them going to be maintained
for, with an equally substantial ammount of them offering long term support.

So... as a new user - and as the devil's advocate - the obvious choice for
me becomes quite obvious: windows.

Right. Based on all the above, please procede to help me understand why on
earth will I or anybody else in the same shoes as I am, be better off
chosing a system that requires me to grasp and understand a lot of complex
command line instructions' sets, wasting a lot of time typing on a
keyboard, and which doesn't offer me the gaming and CAD experience that a
system that barely requires me to use the keyboard and rather allows me to
point and click a cursor on a screen to achieve the same, does?

Prosecutor, the ball is in your court :)

On 12 Jul 2017 08:01, "Joao Monteiro"  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> For those who may not have read it in the thread where I mentioned it, the
> purpose of this thread is simple:
>
> My humble way of giving a contribution to the community within my rookie
> means, in a threefold manner...
>
> 1) The original subject of a thread usually gets lost in the twists and
> turns that the replies take, often going astray into subjects that have
> nothing to do with their original subject. When that deviation from the
> original sibject happens, people are welcome to bring that deviation into
> here. That way the threads can remain as useful references to their titled
> subjects and with valuable info pertaining to that subject alone
>
> 2) To bring forth insights into pros and cons of one too many things linux
> related and
>
> 3) To gather as many and varied views and opinions - preferably with
> sensible explanations as to "why" - as possible, which can bring precious
> insights into the needs and expectations that users have from their
> particular linux distro (in this case xubuntu xfce); a graphical or musical
> user will have different needs and expectations than a math teacher, an
> average user, a programmer, a forensic analyst, etc...
>
> This can in due course offer a 

Re: [xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Ralf Mardorf]

Hi,

while it's a good idea to open a new thread, instead of becoming
off-topic for another thread, I guess it's not useful to continue this
discussion. At least I've said what I wanted to contribute to this
discussion.

Regards,
Ralf

PS:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-users/2017-July/010231.html


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[xubuntu-users] The Devil's Advocate

[Joao Monteiro]

Hi all,

For those who may not have read it in the thread where I mentioned it, the
purpose of this thread is simple:

My humble way of giving a contribution to the community within my rookie
means, in a threefold manner...

1) The original subject of a thread usually gets lost in the twists and
turns that the replies take, often going astray into subjects that have
nothing to do with their original subject. When that deviation from the
original sibject happens, people are welcome to bring that deviation into
here. That way the threads can remain as useful references to their titled
subjects and with valuable info pertaining to that subject alone

2) To bring forth insights into pros and cons of one too many things linux
related and

3) To gather as many and varied views and opinions - preferably with
sensible explanations as to "why" - as possible, which can bring precious
insights into the needs and expectations that users have from their
particular linux distro (in this case xubuntu xfce); a graphical or musical
user will have different needs and expectations than a math teacher, an
average user, a programmer, a forensic analyst, etc...

This can in due course offer a substantial picture, map, of what is
lacking, what can be improved and how, etc...

I have asked Ralph to please be the Prosecutor beating the crap out of me,
who will be the horned bugger's advocate :)  I hope he accepts, as he
has very good views and strong opinions well reasoned...

So... I'll open it with a subject that is pertinent enough to have some
buying me a coffee and others hanging me by my balls :)

Give me a few minutes to dawn a pair of kevlar undies and I'll kick start
the fuss :)
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