Steven Noels wrote:
> and if we consider it fixed we don't have anything to rant about anymore.
But if there *are* remaining problems, those should be brought up
constructively so that they can be fixed, too. :-)
--- Noel
> In summary: Oh of course no problems exist, its all fixed and happy.
> Just don't mind the dead bodies floating in the pond.
In other words, because there were problems before it was fixed, it doesn't
matter if it is fixed now or not?
--- Noel
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> I suggested that Blojsom might be a good choice for hosting ASF
> project news and might also make a great ASF project as I know
> the author is already indoctrinated
> I didn't say it would be a good project for the incubator.
The Incubator is how projects get into the
Folks,
We have completed installation of Jira for the ASF use. Questions regarding
that can be discussed on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Requests would be directed to
infrastructure by a PMC. I do, however, want to make one important request.
If/when you sign into Jira, BE SURE to use the same e-mail add
Ted Leung wrote:
> I'm not fully up on LDAP -- can I just put pointer records into it?.
> perhaps the LDAP records for someone could have a urls.txt kind of
> pointer, and contain or point to foundation specific records.
Short answer is yes. Longer answer is RFC 2079.
--- Noel
---
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> If Incubator Committee takes "graduation examination" bi-monthly
> in place by force partly, many "under-incubation" projects might
> pass the exams. Even though fails, they would pass in the next period.
Each project in the Incubator is required to maintain a STATUS file
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > In my opinion, some projects are spending too long in the
> > Incubator because they aren't focusing on getting out.
> Let us analyze why that is.
I cannot speak for why they don't focusing on exiting, Andrew, and neither
can you. You might ask each project why they
Ted Leung wrote:
> If we had some kind of record (like a FOAF file) that we stick krell,
> and planet* and whatever data in, that would be good. We're starting
> to have data all over the place. members.txt, urls.txt, and probably
> more that I'm not remembering. Be nice to have an authoritativ
Dave Brondsema wrote:
> So if it's not a formality that all new ASF projects should undergo, who
decides
> if a project should be incubated or if it can go directly to being a
regular
> project?
The ASF Board, when it created the Incubator, and designated it as the only
PMC authorized to accept n
> I would like to see the "cheerful"/"considerate" incubation.
So do we all.
> > The Incubator's purpose is to ensure that projects coming into the ASF
> > - are legally clean,
> > - that their communities are healthy,
> > - and that they follow basic ASF policies/procedures.
> I agree wit
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > Unrelated to whether or not we would use it, I think that blojsom could
be a
> > very nice ASF project. From what I have seen of it, I'd support its
entry
> > to the Incubator.
> Does it seem sensible to take an already successful ASL licensed,
> community developed p
Tetsuya,
> Ceremony. I suspect it that even such a nice community has to
> be baptized once. (one day or less)
> Legitimatization, in order to keep *consistency* in a big
> and social community. To make it orthodox.
No, Incubation has nothing to do with pomp and circumstance.
--- Noel
> It is possible that he'd be willing to [bring blojsom] to the incubator.
> It already has a very active community. Its probably bordering on
> becoming a "standard" just because Roller tends to take Blojsom's code.
Unrelated to whether or not we would use it, I think that blojsom could be a
ver
Ted Leung wrote:
> Um, there's lots of standard technology for blogs.
> I did not volunteer to be a guinea pig for another
> let's (re)invent a CMS project.
> We can switch over when something is working, but I want
> to have something that works today.
Well, of course. The second paragraph wa
> Ok, I'm quite happy to register and host planetapache.org; whether or
> not we want to point it at minotaur is more or less irrelevant I think,
> but I'm open to argument either way.
:-)
Personally, a useful application of this technology would be to provide
projects with a means to publish new
Brian Behlendorf wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > We have so far voted to not create an ASF blog because we do not want
the
> > perception of the ASF approving the content of the blogs.
> I missed out on that vote, but FWIW, I have no problem with an aggregator,
> or even
> Many other open source projects, including Debian, the Linux Kernel
> developers, and Mono, are aggregating the RSS feeds of their blogging
> contributors and putting them up on a web site. This is something
> that would be good for the ASF to do as well
We have so far voted to not create an AS
There has been a slight delay in the roll-out. On Monday, ASF Jira
installation was updated to the latest Jira code from Atlassian. That code
includes the necessary changes for selectively importing Bugzilla projects,
so that each project that wants to migrate from Bugzilla to Jira can do so.
We
James Mitchell asked:
> From their online demo:
>
http://jira.atlassian.com/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?reset=true&pid=10450&pr
iorityIds=4&resolutionIds=-1
> System Error
> A system error has occurred.
> [...]
> java.lang.OutOfMemoryError
> [...]
> Total Memory: 346 MB
> Free Memory: 2 MB
> Used
> Do people want the newsletter to continue? If so then I'm happy
> to edit the Oct/Nov issue with no promises to tackle subsequent
> issues - aiming to publish in a week or so.
+1 and much thanks.
> As much as voting with +1s would be appreciated, voting with content would
> be better
Tetsuya
Yes, minotaur (www, cvs, etc.) is unavailable. We know about it, and
everything that can be done to get to back online promptly is being done.
This message is being sent rather than have lots of individual e-mails
asking about it. :-)
--- Noel
--
> > fwiw: there is a nice concept called Tripoli, see
> > http://www.pfir.org/tripoli-overview
> A nice scheme against spam, I read about some time ago, was about
> requiring the email sender to compute a computationally difficult
> challenge before the email was accepted, for uknown/untrusted sen
> > How do you propose getting a critical mass of signed mail, and what do
> > you want to do in the meantime with unsigned mail from a subscriber?
> Making life easier for people using them and more difficult for people
> not using them.
> I expected some expert to come out and say "Actually, pr
> I think the moment is coming where we should think about using those
> interesting GPG keys for something more than "just" signing releases.
S/MIME certificates are acquired, e.g., from Thawte, just as you would an
SSL certificate. There are root Certificate Authorities, just as for HTTPS.
Any
> http://www.cocooncenter.org/apache/coins-04.png
Put that on the back and Fitz's on the pocket (assuming that there isn't a
price issue), and sell one to me. :-) Some of might want one even if we
can't attend this year.
--- Noel
---
> http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/acpoker.jpg
Very cute. :-)
--- Noel
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> http://www.cocooncenter.org/apache/apache-bandit-02.png
I have to admit that with my perverse sense of humor, I'd like to see the
normal above and below, with things like GPL, Roll-Your-own and Vendor
Lock-in as some of the losing items, and a big flashing sign showing all
Apache as hitting the
> Just another question - would you mind considering a
> Las Vegas-related motive?
My only comment was that we want to avoid American Indian motifs. Fitz's
LV-related image is pretty clever, I think, but I'm sure there are a lot of
good ideas.
--- Noel
-
> > > OK, here's one with *the* feather :)
> > > http://www.cocooncenter.org/apache/apachecon2.png
>
> > My question is whether we want to use the indian motif at all.
> And my answer would be no. I think it would be better to stay away from
> that kind of theme.
Agreed. Consider my question lea
> OK, here's one with *the* feather :)
> http://www.cocooncenter.org/apache/apachecon2.png
My question is whether we want to use the indian motif at all.
--- Noel
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> At least, projects@incubator.apache.org and
> jaxme-dev@ws.apache.org have wrong configurations.
> Please fix and notify it of the participants of
> these mailing lists after that.
The owners of those lists (the Incubator and WS PMCs respectively) can
request a change to [EMAIL PROTECTED] An
> > Some lists were setup wrong. AFAIK, none of the lists should accept
mail
> > from non-subscribers without moderation.
> Although there are some lists where it might be nice.
repository@ was setup that way. There was no advertisement of its
existence, yet it was receiving spam. I don't thin
> when I subscribed to some mailing lists, I got stunned
(B> at seeing the fact that some mailing lists accepted
(B> spam mails.
(B
(BSome lists were setup wrong. AFAIK, none of the lists should accept mail
(Bfrom non-subscribers without moderation.
(B
(B> I thought that this was tightly re
> > As for internationalization, I don't see why it should not be part of
Apache
> > Commons. I think that it is exactly the correct place for it. I don't
know
> > that it needs a CVS module, but I'm not opposed to one.
> Apache Commons uses SVN :-)
self: :-( at: self
And I knew that, too. We
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> * Mailing Team (Board Committee)
> * Internationalization Team (Board Committee)
> are what I needed and wanted.
> (*NOT* [EMAIL PROTECTED]: for i18n)
There is a mailing team. "apmail" is part of infrastructure.
As for internationalization, I don't see why it should n
Your points about low-bandwidth devices seems quite reasonable. Your
proposal for a [EMAIL PROTECTED], which could be more verbose seems fine. Do
you have a proposal for a size limit to enforce on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Please do *not* consider requests to respect announce@ bandwidth
> as a slight
> > > Isn't the ASF Board ultimately responsible
> > This is just wrong. Responsibility lies with the individual
> > commiters, members, and their associated project PMCs.
> But this seems to have been exactly the problem with the recent
> discussions. The arguments have been over the use of th
> On the other way, I wonder how Tetsuya gives the job too easily.
There was no strong criticism. Simply the request that instead of the
entire newsletter, an announcement be posted. Other than that, the
newsletter (and Tetsuya's handling of it) have received praise and strong
support.
> The original intention of the newsletter was "Newsletter
> will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF
> umbrella
> ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary.
The newsletter is doing that job. All that was asked is that you post an
announcement to announce@,
Tetsuya,
All that David was asking is that you post a SHORT announcement, like the
sample I posted, rather than the ENTIRE newsletter. That is all.
You did a great job, as usual, on the newsletter, and you should continue to
do so, IMO.
--- Noel
---
> In my opinion the key idea of the ASF is to push the idea of the different
> communities behind a project.
> Pushing the idea of a "guru" (IMVHO) is exactly the opposite of pushing
the
> idea of a community.
How does making it plural work for you? IOW, "The Gurus Are In." That is
somewhere be
> Ahhh. Now, there are no *ASF members* in Japan (Maybe, this goes for
> other Asian countries), so the things can be easily inconsistent.
There are other ASF Committers in Japan. Lief Mortenson, for example, the
author of the Java Wrapper and frequent Avalon contributor.
I assume that you are r
Can anyone recommend a good 802.11g broadband sharing device that doesn't
timeout NAT sessions after 15 min or so? I tested D-LINK, SMC, Belkin, and
a whole bunch of other 802.11b systems over the winter, and only the Linksys
didn't have a problem (e.g., if you leave an SSH session idle while fetc
> Would it be a silly idea to create the mailing list
> of the "united" Jakarta/XML/WS and related projects?
What makes that a grouping a community other than a common interest by most
in the Java platform? If people don't have common interests, there is
little about which to talk. Where there a
> And your point would be? That since ApacheCon doesn't have a session on
> James, that the James home page should not advertise ApacheCon?
Hey guys, leave us out of this argument.
I sent an e-mail off this morning on our site and PMC lists asking if
someone would get to it if they had time befor
> > Is Dion staying [for ApacheCon]? Cool. I just knew that he'd
> > be rooming with us at the Software Summit conference at the
> > end of October.
> So I think you should double your budget ...
My budget? Dion and I are just friends going back for many years. It all
started when his company
> Dion - I think we are going to have to get a suite and shift you
> up to marketing!
Is Dion staying that long? Cool. I just knew that he'd be rooming with us
at the Software Summit conference at the end of October.
--- Noel
---
Brian,
You asked about what evidence there might be that Eolas intends to enforce
the patent against other companies than Microsoft, particularly Open Source
projects. To quote an article Eolas publishes on their web site
(http://www.eolas.com/PatentWarPendingOverApplets.pdf):
Eolas plans to p
Serge Knystautas wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > As far as I am concerned, it would be desirable for the W3C should have
a
> > copyright on HTML, XML, etc., and be able to deny the right to use those
> > standards to anyone claiming IP rights over them. Other standa
David,
... what if some other big player were to
acquire or merge with us? What if only one best-of-breed
browser could run embedded plug-ins, applets, ActiveX
controls, or anything like them, and it wasn't IE? How
competitive would the other
> Is there any indication yet that Eolas intends to enforce this patent on
> any open source or free software projects?
>From their attorney's web site (and from the UC web site):
Q. Won't this patent put a stranglehold on the Internet?
A. UC seeks fair compensation for the use of the technology
See: http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/09/03/HNmicrosoftsloss_1.html
With respect to the mess of software patents, here is an example where
initially most people laughed, "Ha ha, they fed Microsoft!", until it
slowly began to dawn on people that this is a huge problem.
For example, consider
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> Though I personally support the patent protest; and have been heavily
> donating bits, bandwidth,bytes and storage to the cause as a private
> citizen; I am not too eager to see the ASF jump into the political
> arena.
FWIW, I checked around. None of:
www.gnu.or
-Original Message-
Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Whatever text we adopted will need to be approved, anyhow, but do you
want
> > to add anything to the effect that the Apache Software Foundation
develops
> > software based upon Open Standar
> > I predict that it will be really ugly. Fortunately, there are Open
> > Source friendly companies like IBM, so with their patronage, Open
> > Source can succeed. Should they turn face, ugly will be an
understatement.
> Agreed, but did you know: [that IBM is the world’s most prolific patenter]
> Is having the real home page one click or 60-seconds away for one day
> really something that bugs the Apache userbase a lot?
No. I think what you did was fine in that regard, and have already
commented on it. We are apparently still dealing with mail-lag. :-)
> I know that patents will be a
> http://cvs.apache.org/~gianugo/apache-protest.html
"Page Closed" -> "Important Notice"
"this site" -> "this site's"
--- Noel
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Whatever text we adopted will need to be approved, anyhow, but do you want
to add anything to the effect that the Apache Software Foundation develops
software based upon Open Standards and promotes inter-operability, both of
which would be threatened by software patents, and therefore the ASF is
ta
I am in favor of opposing software patents (they aren not working out great
in the USA), but we should not disadvantage our users. If we post anything,
as we did regarding the JCP, it should not prevent our users from easily
using the site. People count on the ASF, and while we may want them to
f
> If I remember correctly, Brian modified the settings of each
> announce(ments)@.apache.org mailing lists to forward to
> announce@apache.org automatically... Right!?
It was discussed, but I don't believe that it was effected. Brian had some
concerns. See the community@ archives.
--- N
> > (b) subscribe each [EMAIL PROTECTED] to announce@apache.org
> Whoa whoa whoa. b) is backwards - from the other discussions on this, you
> wanted to subscribe announce@apache.org to each [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> not the other way around.
I think you're saying what I meant. announce@apache.org
So then it sounds as if two "action" items are to:
(a) ensure that each TLP has an announce@
(b) subscribe each [EMAIL PROTECTED] to announce@apache.org
Works for me.
--- Noel
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> Of course, I never really clarified this, which might have been part
> of the problem. I just hoped people would figure out by example.
Uh huh ... LOL
--- Noel
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Joshua,
Joshua Slive wrote:
> When I originally proposed the announce@apache.org list, the purpose was
> this: Each project would send their announcements to their own list (eg.
> announce@httpd.apache.org) AND send a copy to [EMAIL PROTECTED] That
> way people could choose whether they wanted an
Personally, I think that announce@apache.org is the correct place for a
monthly ASF newsletter. However, I do agree with your comments related to
the terra-intl.com references. The following ought to have been removed:
"My main job is marketing, business development and IT consulting [4]."
al
Considering how many members of the Apache Community just take the smooth
operation of the infrastructure for granted, I think that people like Ask,
Brian, Cliff, Greg, Justin, Manoj, Pier, Sander, Thom, et al, deserve credit
for all of the things that they do which allow the rest of us to take the
> I set up the translated mirror site in my company's host
> (jakarta.terra-intl.com), but if there is *completely
> consistent infrastracture* in apache.org, I am willing
> to put the contents on it.
You are asking, I believe, about support for MultiViews. For any given
page, P, there could be P
Joerg Pietschmann:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I think that "bringing together a group of volunteers who are not
coders,
> > and who may not even be experts on one particular project outside its
> > documentation, but who are able to provide translations" would
> I was thinking on the l10n making "doc commits" and "properties
> commits", ... themselves, and having means to track *both* the
> source document (in the original project cvs) and the translated
> documents (???).
That would be possible if they were invited to have Commit access to a
project's
If the purpose is to come up with a common XML schema (for the sake of
discussion) and common tools, I don't see it as being a TLP. Each project
will need to have its own resources using the common format and tools.
Does a DTD/schema and a set of common language bindings/utility libraries
warrant
How's about Apache Commons?
FWIW, we have some code in James that might be useful for in this area.
Yes, the James code is written in Java, but the real offering is the XML
resource format, and the operations.
--- Noel
> But with the obvious caveat that an ASF wide newsletter might become quite
> big if people write major dissertations, I'd rather see nice concise
precis
> of recent activity, and links to more detail text where relevant, I'm more
> likely to read it all that way.
Let's see what happens. :-) An
Danny,
As I said to you in the broader context, I wasn't saying that community@ is
the right place; just that I think it is hard to call it off-topic if it
covers the whole community.
Actually, announce@ was one of the places I'd suggested in an earlier
message. announce@ has almost no traffic,
> This is what I would like to see:
+1
--- Noel
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> > I don't think community@ is a valid place for news of a newsletter
anyway.
> > Perhaps announce@ for those who are interested.
> the jakarta newsletter are verging on OT for community@ as well.
Perhaps, but it seems to me that this discussion has been about taking the
Jakarta Newsletter and t
> you can't know who are the new committers without taking
> snapshots of /etc/passwd or /home/cvs/CVSROOT/avail
AFAICS, committer uids in /etc/passwd started at a particular value, and
monotonically increment for each new user, so couldn't he use that as an
indicator?
--- Noel
As I said, I understood your reason. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be
a wiki page, but IMO it should reference existing web resources, and not
create yet another list.
> I could not make out the meaning of "NIH" and searched at google.co.jp...
> .. Amazing! "National Institute of Health" c
> I want the "acronym-list", acronym often used in Apache.Org,
> to be put on wikipage, committers module or somewhere appropriate.
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall/abbrev.html
http://www.holodeck.com/curt/acronyms-internet.html
http://www.rnrtech.com/techhelp/acronyms.html
http://www.so
Stefano Mazzocchi applauded:
> on 7/10/03 4:21 PM Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
> > So an apache-wide newsletter would be great. And posting it to apache
wide
> > announce, or even xposting it to all announce mailing list - sure. I'd
> > love that. Having it on the web is nice for archival too -
> > What if some one/a group of people were to form a watchdog group
> > that would bring to the attention of [that] they should infact
> > use 'Apache HTTPD' instead of just 'Apache'.
> If you want to raise awareness of such an "Apache wide" fact, don't
> do it in a "java only" place like Jakarta
> > > Why not simply make it the Apache Newsletter, add the projects that
are
> > > not there yet, and publish it here on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > +1
> If we list up all the projects in ASF and make Apache-newsletter,
> I am (very) afraid it will be too big for ezmlm :-)
I don't believe that the ne
> We have different lists for different purposes. This content does not
belong
> on this list.
Which content? The newsletter, or the discussion of turning it into an
ASF-wide newsletter?
--- Noel
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> It has been already said, but the last newsletter was *awesome*! :-)
Agreed! :-)
> Why not simply make it the Apache Newsletter, add the projects that are
> not there yet, and publish it here on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1
It would help to preserve and build community the community aspect(s) of the
> and the stats he is presumaby referring to at:
> - http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/archives/001008.html
> - http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/archives/001009.html
I'd be curious to see commit stats. Total commits per-project, avg commits
per-release, avg commits per committer, that sort of
Is this list archived?
>>> There are archives at MARC and gmane.org
>> And the ASF archives site: http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/
> After all the 'eyebrowse down' mails, coming up on infrastructure
> every now and then, I didn't even think about it ;-)
Those are usually related to a list
> > Is this list archived?
> There are archives at MARC and gmane.org
And the ASF archives site: http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/
--- Noel
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> > I admit that doing that is not my highest priority right now. We've
> > got a lot of nice new contributions that need to be merged.
> Noel, I'm not suggesting that you do do it, certainly not that
> you do it soon either, chill out man!
LOL Don't worry. It hadn't even occured to me to take
> Aren't the same people right now are saying that Java DOT-NET means
> community-based software development???
It is a start. java.net is not the ASF (believe me, I have had that
discussion), but give them credit for what they are doing, and encourage
them to go further.
--- Noel
> I'm sure that everyone is in favour of hardening James as much as
possible.
> Its just that we should approach it from a Java perspective, not a C on
> Unix one. The issues are different.
Not so much. We seem to all be in agreement except on the specific case of
how many JVMs per machine, and w
> > The internals of James models the desired architecture. The issue
> > concerning you is that the current implementation does it in a single
> > process. That is at least partially addressable with no change to the
> > architecture, minimal (if any) change to the implementation, and some
> > c
> >Sun is moving to do a lot more with Open Source licenses. Let's hope
that
> >discussions about migrating that code to .NET doesn't discourage them.
> Exactly how many years have they ignored such issues?
I'm not a Sun apologist. Just reporting. See
http://www.java.net/choose_license.html, a
> the problem I have encoutered 1st hand is that there is are *LOT* of java
> libraries that we all use everyday which are licenced to us by Sun
> (and possibly others) under proprietery licences of one kind or another
Sun is moving to do a lot more with Open Source licenses. Let's hope that
disc
> I don't see Java as "glue" because it portrays integration with
> non-Java as anathema.
It favors portability, which means that the abstractions have to be
portable. No reason why you can't have glue classes using JNI to call
things, but I would expect whatever is part of a standard distributio
Steve and Kenny,
There is a balance. Not all of Pier's issues may apply, but many of the
important ones do.
Frankly, I don't want to run anything at root that can avoid it. That is
just good practice.
Consider Vincenzo's anti-spam matcher. Would you want that to run as root?
I am not convince
> I was raising concerns that *real* sysadms have. I don't know any sysadm
> who, free to choose his server operating system, would choose windosh.
I personally don't consider Windows to be robust and secure enough as a
server operating system. But that is far from a universal view, and I don't
f
>>>http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223
>>I am a priori discouraged because I don't see IBM represented. To have
this
>>JSR without participation from the BSF folks seems wrong. I don't know if
>>this is payback for Eclipse and the WS-I, an oversight, or what.
>Lack of warm bodies with the r
> Well, all "decent" OSes... You won't find "fork" in stupid WindoSH...
"According to market researcher OneStat.com, Windows now controls 97.46
percent of the global desktop operating system market, compared to just 1.43
percent for Apple Macintosh and 0.26 percent for Linux."
Do you have statist
> Hmm. Wait. Java doesn't give you access to shared memory? oh, too bad...
It could. Just embed it in tuple-space package. Application code shouldn't
know, or care, what the underlying mechanism uses.
--- Noel
-
To un
> The separate processes would share memory including a part of the
> actual JVM code as well as much of the Java library classes if (and I'm
> pretty sure only if) you are running on OS X. Apple has provided the
> technology to do this back to Sun and it will likely appear in a future
> version o
[Reply in multiple pieces based on sub-topic]
> A few months ago, I had a very interesting conversation with Pier on
JAMES.
Thanks for the background. I'd heard some of it from Serge over time. And
the servlet topic gets brought up from time to time by people who see the
obvious similarities, b
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