Re: [313] Re: about the members
Here's my contribution to this thread, even though I'm pretty quiet on the list these days: name: Forrest Norvell / ozymandias G desiderata age: 29 born: Portland, Oregon, US location: San Francisco, California, US occupation: software engineer, web designer, net.artist listen: everything (techno, post-rock, black metal, hip hop, avant-garde classical, experimental, metalcore, dnb, classic industrial, etc) produce: meditative post-rock, occasionally make stabs at making harder, Source-Experience style techno (none released) subscribed: on and off since 1993 -- . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)823-6356 http://www.pushby.com/forrest/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ:: - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] article in Salon.com mentions Strings of Life
On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 09:16:50PM -0800, Sunlight Data wrote:
> "warm, funky, exultant records that were just right for nightclubs and
> high-tech launch parties packed with gamines in $300 shoes sloshing
> day-glo cocktails"
>
> Really, if that isn't taking the piss (as the UK contingent says)
> I don't know what is.
>
> Well, it's pretty clear that Michelle Goldberg has the tenuous grasp
> on techno that you would expect from the average clever music journo.
> So it's not a bad article overall but clanks with the clotted phrases
> that pass for insight in the high reaches of music journalism these
> days.
It's not really a record review, it's cultural commentary. In a sense,
I get what she's saying -- y'all can say what you like about Chemical
Brothers vis a vis them actually being techno, but I saw them play SF
a few times, long ago ('95 and '96, I think), and they put on a great,
LOUD, completely unpretentious live show. On the one hand, I just
can't imagine going to one of those shows now, because hey do belong
to a different era. On the other hand, that's me that's changed, not
the Chemical Bros. I'm sure there are kids that are going to listen to
the new album and just think it's the keenest.
> Let me say, though, that there really were "office parties" at the
> crest of the dotcom wave in San Francisco. If you've seen the movie
> "Groove" -- that's us.
_Groove_ is the only movie in cinema history to feature a dotcom CTO
and open source pioneer (the same person, in fact, who owns the
machine that 313 is hosted on) playing a chill room DJ. Fun fact!
Impress your friends!
> (Aside from the speaking-part actors, although that's my man
> Dmitri-from-the-Lower-Haight who snagged some on-screen time and
> that classic promo shot with the disco ball on the Muni Metro.) A
> lot of the extras and small parts, and much of the equipment seen in
> the movie were also in the "Expansion" parties that we threw from
> time to time when various dotcom firms in South of Market San
> Francisco
If by "various" you mean "Organic", then sure. ;) I don't think there
was ever a non-Organic Expansion party.
> were moving in and out of their spaces. That was the only way to
> get 1000 people to a good party in SF in the late 1990s without
> getting busted (and one of the Expansion parties did get busted,
> ostensibly for a faulty fire exit sign in a building used 365 days a
> year as office and workshop space :).
The high point of that particular Expansion was the landlord for the
building trying to throw his weight around with the fire marshal,
being all "I have friends in City Hall, you know" (which may have been
true (it probably wasn't), but wasn't going to do us any good at
midnight on a Saturday night). In most parts of the world, the
landlord would have been screaming that he was going to have us
evicted, but not in San Francisco. Having hipster dotcom companies in
his building allowed him to boot all the sweat shops out and put other
hipster dotcom companies into the exact same dingy spaces for twice
the rent. Ah, those halcyon days!
It's worth pointing out that the parties Phred is talking about
generally featured some of San Francisco's most Detroit-friendly DJs
and were probably the best rave-type parties in SF post-1993. They
were cheaply staged, had ridiculous sound, and featured astonishingly
diverse lineups (how many parties have *you* been to with a Celtic
rock band, a gamelan orchestra, a shoegazer band, and a jazz singer to
complement the Banging Techno Loops (tm) coming out of the main sound
system?).
I miss those parties a lot more than I miss the company that sponsored
them, that's for sure.
> And then at 7 am we'd clean up, leave nothing but footprints, and the
> next week the place would be an Ethernet forest demarcated by a
> terrain of Aeron chairs and big 19-inch monitors with inscrutable code
> scrolling by :)
Not hardly, pal. More like two 21-inch monitors perched on doors
balanced on stands -- they almost never collapsed -- and there may
have been Aerons around, but *I* never got one. ;)
Forrest
--
. . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . .
ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless
(415)823-6356 http://www.pushby.com/forrest/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
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Re: [313] true/false
>>>>> "dr" == dobyrush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: dr> FALSE, sort of... dr> Colin McBean, (formerly) 1/2 of The Advent, = Mr. G dr> Cisco Ferreira, the other 1/2 of The Advent, = G Flame dr> ...and Stanny Franssen (formerly of LFO) = G-Force. I'm pretty sure Franssen was never a part of LFO, but Gez Varley, who was, records under the name G-Man (~swim, i220) when he wants to roll out the minimal click-house. They both sound pretty tight, though, so I can understand the confusion. - o . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ:: - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [313] Re: maurizio bianchi recommendations
>>>>> "md" == Mediadrome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: md> On a old thread someone said "avoid Bianchi recent recordings md> like "Colori" . That sounds like a recommendation to me! md> What label is it on? Anything on CD or is it just vinyl. They md> haven't heard of bianchi at sonic groove or other music. As far as I know, all of the Maurizio Bianchi CD reissues were on the same label, EEs'T, which is an Italian archival label pretty much started to reissue Maurizio Bianchi material. Pretty much everything he's ever done has found its way onto one or another of his CDs. If you're _really_ into pure synth tones that are too dry to be New Age or pleasnt ambient and too tonal and affectless to be industrial, you _might_ enjoy Colori. It shares almost nothing in common with any of his earlier power electronics / isolationist ambient stuff, nor does it share much in common with anything else, aside from test tone records. Bianchi was trying to touch God through music, or something of the sort, and _Colori_ is what resulted. Words from the man himself: http://www.wwa.com/~sdm/mbweb/mbdiscog/Colori.htm "Fourteen years... they have gone, yes, and it has been time for meditation and purification, in which I've gained full spirituality, a true aim in my life, the lasting happiness which comes from serving my God. In the meantime, the music operated inside me like a fire, impossible to put out, and this flame has been slowly growing, day by day, month after month, year after year, until it has become uncontainable... here I have rediscovered ancient sounds and tastes, together with new feelings and emotions, so yearning. So, my acquired maturity has traced the road of my return, after 5,114 days...why? Because I wanted to raise a hymn to the serenity and peace conquered after many efforts... I wished to renew my present, trusting in a sentimental-romantic inspiration, not tied up to any stereotype, but associated with affective values, nowadays so rare and despised. Finally, I've been helped to believe more in myself, not because I have trusted in my limited capacities, but by virtue of He who imparted me (and keeps imparting) strength and vigour. To Him be glory and praise forever and ever." If you really want to hear a newly-converted Italian jamming out with some synths in a fairly minimal and abstract style, I'd recommend MB's _The Plain Truth_ instead. It sounds like the Forbidden Planet soundtrack. Also keep in mind (and here's a hint for the befuddled on 313 and idm) that this Maurizio has nothing to do with Moritz von Oswald or any other beloved makers of techno using the name Maurizio, past or present. Bianchi's all that and a bag of chips, but he belongs to an entirely different musical tradition. Forced Exposure is probably a good place to find his music. I know that Aquarius Records in San Francisco keeps his more evil sounding stuff in stock, as well (which implies that they could special order _Colori_ for you if need be). His CDs are almost always filed under the name "MB". informatively yours, ozy g . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Techno & Achitecture
>>>>> "lp" == Counterforce - Lay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> writes: lp> Lately I've been noticing some paralels between Techno music lp> and architecture. Since this awareness has started a while lp> ago, I've been also noticing that there are quite a few people lp> in electronic music who have architecture backgrounds. Are any lp> techno related works on architecture? Or architecture-related lp> techno works? :-) If someone wants to drop a line on the lp> subject, I'm all ears :-) While you probably could talk about an "architecture of techno", it would be a metaphorical thing. I agree with the folks who have said that music and architecture are entirely different things, although I do think that it has less to do with distinctions of abstraction vs concreteness and more to do with distinctions between permanence and ephermerality. Techno is "functional" in entirely different a way than architecture -- "functional" techno made for the needs of the moment and functional architecture made to endure for longer periods. All that said, I seem to recall reading that Karl O'Connor and Peter Sutton's _Againstnature_ was inspired by the work of an architect, although I can't remember who. On some level, the _X-103_ record has always struck me as being architecture-related, although now that that thought has emerged I'm powerless to tell you why. One would expect that Mills would have an architectural influence on his music, because it's certainly influenced his web site. Forrest . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Riou ?
>>>>> "gc" == Gwendal Cobert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> I also like the more ascetic sorts of minimalism (Plastikman, >> Riou, Landstrumm). gc> so do I, Plastikman and Landstrumm I know, but Riou ? what gc> label, where can I hear some of it ? Gwendal Riou Tomita is a Japanese techno artist, with three LPs and a handful of singles out on Kk Records. A reasonably complete discography can be found at http://www.aoaioxxysz.net/music/discography/riou/. His personal page, which is unfortunately (for me, as I can't read it) in Japanese, is at http://www.sound-channel.com/jp/artist/riou.html. _Cone of Confusion_ and the "Head Room" EP are both good places to start. He's been quiet recently, but is apparently working on a number of Japan-only things for the Sound Channel label. Some samples from _Exhibition Of The Samples_ are available on Amazon, although it's hard to get the flavor of what he's doing in 30-second chunks. It's moody, propulsive, and _very_ electronic sounding. Forrest . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Optic Nerve
>>>>> "kjj" == Jongsma, K J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: kjj> TOmake things more complicated, Frank de Groot from 'The kjj> Operator' released tracks under the name of 'Optic Nerve' on kjj> Djax-up-beats. kjj> PS. I just tought of this new theory, it's called: "when in kjj> hear a track and i like it, it is a good track". :p I have a counter-theory: eyeballs are very techno. . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Optic Nerve
tf> I thought Optic Nerve was an alias for Keith Tucker (one of tf> the two original members of Aux 88). Anyways, Optic Nerve tf> 'Trilogy Wave 1' (DB4W-005) would have to be a lost Detroit tf> techno classic (circa 1995)... all three tracks are killer Red tf> Planet style techno. The other Trilogy Wave parts are cool tf> too, but not quite as strong as Wave 1. My Optic Nerve records are at home, so you very well could be right. I thought it was both of the folks in Aux 88, though (and I'm pretty sure "Optica Nerve" was some sort of weird Pow Wow typo). I used to play the hell out of that triple-pack. In fact, there was a time when I bought every db release as soon as it came out, until I had, um, enough. I like techno-bass, but Aux 88 just kept putting out the records! I agree, the first is best, but Trilogy Wave is one of those releases that's never gotten its due. I don't know about "lost" though. I have a hard time seeing a record I personally own as lost. :) . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: Intention (was Re: some toneshifting tracks...)
tion of what the work would sound like before he even started the formal compositional process, much less was able to hear what he was doing. Of course, he could be lying (and cynical me is predisposed to thinking that he's not averse to fudging the truth a little bit). I will say that reading the program notes while listening to one of of Stockhausen's more complex works is an incredibly enlightening and humbling experience. Especially because it's very hard to figure out what he's trying to do without doing so. But that appears to be a conversation for a completely different list :). im> Hindsight alone tells us what the transforming and significant im> artistic statements are. im> Everything else is "stuff I'm digging right now..." Indeed. Elegantly put. Thank you. Forrest . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] some toneshifting tracks...
Last one from me today, I promise... >>>>> "dn" == darw_n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: dn> Exactly, thus making it very unique music in the modern art dn> world. The producers aren't aware (well, usually not, I dn> believe Oliver Ho actually says he tries to create toneshifts dn> audibly, assuming that was really him I was talking to!) of dn> this effect because no one has really yet tried to examine and dn> define this art on a more scientific level, the producers are dn> generally sitting around making something they think sounds dn> good, often never becoming intellectually involved in their dn> own art, for good or for bad. Well, _why_ does it sound good, dn> and _why_ is utter repeatition often tear jerking to some? dn> Also, the basic appeal I said above resides in the listener dn> and the artist as he is being the listener too, NOT a creater dn> in it's definition being one who is in total control with a dn> completed image as to his/her goal. I am willing to bet that dn> when Beyer makes a track he is more listening than creating, dn> he is toneshifting his own tracks while in the studio... I wouldn't be so sure. Considering that the foundations of the modern musical avant-garde were built on various composers' inquiries into the effects of repetition and minimalism (Steve Reich, Iannis Xennakis, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Terry Riley, LaMonte Young, Philip Glass), and given that most of the folks who've been making techno for a few years have probably thought pretty hard about what they're doing (you have to, to stay interested enough to keep doing it), I don't think it's at all safe to assume that the producers are ignorant of the possible effects of their music. In underground dance music, where a very large percentage of the producers are also DJs, this is doubly true. If I understand what you mean by "toneshifting", DJs like Claude Young have purposefully been using flanging, phasing, EQ tricks, and whatnot to shape and bring out the "hidden music" within minimal techno for years. Art is not science, and while most arts have at least a partially scientific / mathematical foundation, none of them can be _defined_ scientifically. Even the second- and third-order effects generally can't be defined, and I don't think it will be possible to do so until we have a complete theory of cognitive science and psychology, which is still a long ways off. In addition, to state "the producers are generally sitting around making something they think sounds good, often never becoming intellectually involved in their own art" sounds pretty arrogant from where I sit. I think most of them have had to think pretty hard about what they're doing, even if they can't (or won't) articulate the results of that process. If you're not following a rote formula (and sometimes even if you are, if you're doing it well), making music is really hard. You _have_ to think about what you're doing, even if it's not on some highfalutin theoretical level. Finally, I don't think I've _ever_ met an artist who can, godlike, take an idea and turn it into a finished work without the idea being destructively altered at least a little along the way. Stockhausen, maybe, but Stockhausen is a genius and comes from a completely different tradition than anyone you and I are likely to hear on a pair of 1200s / behind a 909. Making art puts you in this incredibly bizarre position, where the act of creation alters the idea you're attempting to make manifest. Creators are never completely in control. Forrest . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Swedish Techno
>>>>> "dn" == darw_n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: dn> Anyways, there is a wrench in my gears in that ALOT of people dn> like music for many different reasons, and they are often not dn> truthful about it. One of my huge stumbling blocks in my dn> research is this need to like something simply because its dn> proper or because it was created by someone historical, or dn> even worse, simply because it is cutting edge. This makes my dn> work very difficult for it illiminates any possibilty of dn> knowing what they _really_ like to hear... Good luck separating music from its social context. Sometimes I will be absolutely raving fanatical about a new record because it's by someone whose previous records I've loved, only to realize a few months later that what was happening was that I was happy to have a new record by producer X more than actually liking that particular record (most recent egregious example: last year's incredibly tedious Underworld album). I think it is a very odd duck indeed who never does this. By contrast, I'm guilty of ignoring an artist's work because I haven't liked what they were making before and / or the scene of which they're a part, only to realize later that I was being a close-minded idiot. Again, I think most of us do this from time to time. dn> The other thing is that I am not attempting to create a MMTI dn> type test, in which you answer 25 vquestion, and wham, I can dn> tell you if you'll like Paper Records or Code Red, no. I am dn> simply trying to figure out a general pattern of typing, with dn> room for all the "middle of the road" types. dn> I hate to think that we like what we like "just because", I am dn> after a clearer vision of "why"... Creativity and our individual responses to it are probably the most subjective things in life. I don't think we like things "just because", but I do think that the "real" reasons why _Live at the Liquid Room_ ripped my head off the first time I heard it, say, or why I damn near started crying tears of joy the first time I heard Daft Punk play live would be better explained within a therapeutic / historical context than through any sort of reductive model or theory. A useful example is those services on sites like amazon.com that try to recommend music to you based on what you've already bought or claimed to like. It's like shaking a Magic 8-Ball -- you never know what's coming up next. I'm at least as interested as anyone else in understanding what makes good music good, if only because that would make it easier for me to make good music myself. But figuring out psychological models that predispose certain people to like certain sorts of art, well, that doesn't seem so fertile a field for exploration. In any case, good luck. Forrest . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Swedish Techno
>>>>> "dn" == darw_n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: dn> I am so interested in this, so excuse my frequent posting!! dn> But I am interested in how personality typing plays in all dn> this... dn> For instance, are the lovers of Swedish techno generally dn> introverted (i.e., only needs very slight informational input dn> to feel fulfilled) and is people, like Diane here, who find dn> Swedish Techno boring and lacking more extroverted (i.e. needs dn> generally more sensory input to achieve satisfaction)... This notion is so off-base that I can't stay away from it. It's like poking a loose tooth with my tongue. But since you went out on a limb and posited a theory, I'll reply with a theory of my own. In short: no, I don't think that's the way things work. For starters: I like extremely dense, maximalistic dance music (which is what first attracted me to UK hardcore and jungle), but I also like the more ascetic sorts of minimalism (Plastikman, Riou, Landstrumm). You could make the argument that I'm both introverted and extroverted, but that seems silly. My real point is that any real human being is far too complicated to explain with such simple models. I think our musical / artistic tastes arise from the same sorts of processes that produce our sexual tastes, and I shouldn't have to tell anyone here how infinitely variegated _those_ are. The process is deep, mysterious, and not really amenable to any theory any less complex than, say, Freud's. dn> A neat thing is this "soulful" and "soulless" concept. Again, dn> I think the beauty of any good music is that it captures the dn> makers/artists "soul", but the beauty of things like Swedish dn> techno is that indeed it is "soulless", allowing the listener dn> to add their own "soul"... Hmm... again, not buying it. I will agree that one of the cool things about techno is its generally neutral emotional context, but that's different from being "soulless". A productive conversation could probably be had about what constitutes "soul" in music, but I think the general populace of 313 would quickly grow impatient with a discussion that theoretical. In any case, one person's "soulless" DJ tool is another person's favorite, most emotional track in the whole world, and both listeners may have arrived at that conclusion independent of the context in which they originally heard the music. They both might find the music inherently soulful. Again, things get all complicated and psychological. For me, the essential attribute is balance, particularly having to do with the frequency range of a track. For techno, the midrange is negative space, in the same way that the sky and the horizon line are used as negative space in all those Italian Renaissance paintings. All the interesting stuff happens around that negative space. A track that's got lots of intricate things happening in the high trebles and low basses is more interesting than a track that has a lot of undifferentiated stuff going on in the midrange. This is a lot of why I find most trance so unappealing -- there's lots going on, but it's all in the midrange, which is what sounds the least interesting when you turn it up loud. Likewise, part of the reason I've grown disenchanted with d'n'b is that it's obsessed with that midrange hoover groan over the last couple years, leaving out the chunky basslines and spastic high hats. All the Detroit innovators appear to have intuitively figured this out, because most of the old Detroit tracks have, for me, the perfect balance of low and high end. It's this same balance that the Birmingham crew appear to have hit upon recently, which is why I like their new material so much more than the old. Good two-step garage has this pegged as well. Well, it's a theory, at least. Forrest . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Derrick May / Kech
So, like I said yesterday, I finally picked up a copy of Derrick May's _Innovator_ comp, and it is completely ace. It is, in fact, perfect. But all of you knew that already. What _isn't_ perfect is the track listing for the second CD. A huge chunk of it is off by one, but I don't know where the mistake starts and where it ends. Does anyone have the corrected track listing? On another note, I've recently been having a torrid little affair with my old _Deep Detroit_ compilations. They're so good to me! It's a shame Pow Wow never released more than the two of them, as they're chock full of the good stuff -- Infiniti, Shake, Eddie "Flashin'" Fowlkes -- you know the score. They were how I discovered Optica Nerve, who are still my favorite db / 430 West artists (so it's an alias for Aux 88 -- your point is...?). But anyway, the first track on Volume 1 is a gorgeous, soulful track by someone named Kech called "Irony". It's the only thing I've ever heard by this particular artist, and that's a shame. Anyone have the story on this personage (these personages), including where I can find more music by him / her / them? "Detroit Techno-Soul" indeed! F . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Swedish Techno
>>>>> "cw" == Cyclone Wehner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: cw> What issue is this? I find that a lot too - and here too cw> among some quarters there is always some new name the techno cw> heads are championing, usually white and British - but you cw> will always find that Black producers like Dave Angel and Carl cw> Cox identify far closer with it, which I think says cw> something. It could be a English thing - the likes of Laurent cw> Garnier and DJ Q are less inclined to see Detroit as something cw> that they have to rebel against or whatever. To toss another spurious dichotomy into the ring, I think at least part of this boils down to where producers / DJs fall on the spectrum between "disco" and "avant-garde". Do you want to move booties or do you want to make people scratch their chins? The artists I've been enjoying the most recently tend to fall squarely in the middle and be very good at splitting the distance between the two. People who want to "make a statement", who want to be part of the avant-garde, generally have something to prove. They're also more inclined to believe that their ideas are uniquely their own (whether that's true or not is an exercise best left to each individual listener). Other artists are more into being part of a community, and they're more likely to see their ideas as growing out of the community that produced them. Considering that all of us drift to both of these poles at different times in our lives, it gets to be very difficult to ascertain motives at any particular time. Read interviews with Derrick May and Jeff Mills (two of the more prickly / cerebral Detroit figures) over the years and it becomes evident that they aren't always consistent about whether they're innovators or part of a cultural continuum. Surgeon's claimed different things at different times as well. >> As I remember a few years ago in interview, Surgeon mention >> something darker and harder detriot music definitely influence >> him anyway I like what all of them are doing, much respect cw> Yeah, I remember that too. It's funny. That's why you've gotta cw> respect the likes of Ho and DJ Hell who give it up to the cw> likes of Mills. I find it next to impossible to talk about techno without the conversation eventually returning to Detroit, and I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to have any sort of wide-ranging expertise in techno who _doesn't_ prominently bring Detroit into the discussion on a frequent basis -- producers moreso than the rest of us. The more I listen to the old Detroit techno (and there's still so much more of it to find!), the more inescapable its influence seems to be. Forrest . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Swedish Techno
>>>>> "cw" == Cyclone Wehner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: cw> I think the antagonism to the Swedish stuff arises from the cw> fact that the likes of Cari and Adam have been so prolific - cw> saturating the market and subscribing to a formula, even cw> inadvertently. Also it's not material that you can listen to cw> in different environments necessarily, like on a walkman in cw> the tram/bus. As DJ tool material, it's OK, but maybe people cw> are not using it very adventurously. Also I doubt if anyone cw> aside from a trainspotter could recognise or name a track by cw> either those guys or Christian Smith - it's very anonymous. cw> It's not like there is a stand-out track like Jaguar, The cw> Bells, etc. I have the first Hybrid compilation, and it's some of the most turgid and characterless techno I own. Before I bought it, I thought I _liked_ that kind of dark, reverb-soaked minimal trance (I was a HUGE fan of Reload Records before it got all sucky), but I realized I didn't like it unreservedly, because every time I put that CD on it immediately turns into sonic wallpaper. I've tried and tried to mix with those tracks over the years, but it never sounds right. Here in SF, the techno purists started really getting into the Swedish sound about three years ago, and it really brought me down, because that stuff, and the more stripped down variety of tech house, were all that were getting much play. It led to very monochromatic evenings. And I think that at least part of the reason that happens is because those tracks lend themselves to being clicked together like little Legos (to choose another Scandinavian export as a metaphor). Once you're in that groove it's really hard to get out. I love hard, minimal, loop-based techno, but I also like variety. Smart people like Jeff Mills can make that music work in more diverse sets, but as we all know there aren't many DJs of his caliber. cw> Sure Surgeon and Ruskin and more so Ho subscribe to a more cw> intellectual ethos but that said Surgeon insisted in an cw> interview here that he has no affinity with the Mills/Hood cw> cerebralism at all when it comes to techno and that it's more cw> like having sex for him (his analogy) - a physical urge. Oddly enough, I can identify with this. One of the interesting things about minimalism is that it can lend itself to multiple interpretations. While I did witter on about how great and coherent _Force + Form_ is, what I like about it is that it makes me want to dance. I appreciate what minimalists like Neil Landstrumm and Cristian Vogel are doing, but they aren't generally as urgently propulsive as the recent Surgeon stuff (with the exception of "Gigolos Trapped in Retro Hell" from Landstrumm's _Pro Audio_, which is both perfectly titled and totally slamming -- well, that and the Super_Collider record, but that's something else altogether). Not to pitch myself into the Lake of Fire, but while I absolutely and unhesitatingly adore (most of) Mills' music, his writing / thinking about techno suffers from a lot of empty pretension. It's obvious that he takes music very seriously, but quite often what he's saying, when the kinks are straightened out, just isn't that profound. And really, when I listen to _Live At The Liquid Room_ or the various other Mills sets I've snagged from the net over the years, I'm not immediately struck by their cerebrality -- mostly because I'm bobbing my head like an idiot. That variety of minimalism is propulsive and booty-moving, and that's what I like about it. cw> Ruskin's album Point 2 is very derivative of Mills, I feel, cw> but as a DJ he is excellent. Really? I won't dispute this (your ears are your ears), but I think the sonic pallette of _Point 2_ is actually much more derivative of _Force + Form_ (there are an awful lot of sounds in common) than anything of Mills'. It's not Art in the same way that _Force + Form_ is, but at the same time it's got lots of little surprises that make me appreciate it. Forrest . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Surgeon
>>>>> "dd" == Dennis Donohue <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: dd> My favorite Surgeon track is definitely "La Real", off of his dd> label counterbalance (CB02). I love what Tony is doing dd> recently, the counterbalance stuff is great. I've heard a lot dd> of coments on this list about how he, (and other people dd> playing similar music - dubbed "boom-boom-boom") have no dd> "groove" or "funk" to them. I would have to dissagree. To dd> me, this is the stuff that gives me that rush of energy. This dd> is what gives me inspiration to dance. At one point I'd written Surgeon off as someone whose only talent was making derivative copies of _Waveform Transmissions, v1_-era Jeff Mills. I really liked "Badger Bite" and "Magneze" but was disappointed by how distorted and repetitive _Communications_ and _basictonalvocabulary_ were. So I set his stuff aside for a while. Eventually, I heard his remix of Mogwai's "Fear Satan", which was all shimmering ambient drones and chimes and absolutely unlike anything else I've heard by him. It's beautiful. It's certainly better than anything Mogwai have done on their own. Last year, on a whim, I picked up _Force + Form_ and was absolutely blown away. Techno's history is littered with concept albums, but for whatever reason, _Force + Form_ works far better for me than almost all of them (with the possible exception of Plastikman's _Consumed_). The album is a totally coherent musical statement and has absolutely pristine production, and is the best mixture of dance and head music I've heard in a long time. The music is complex enough to be involving, but simple enough to be completely propulsive and danceable. In fact, that album (oddly enough) is what rejuvenated my interest in techno and got me to rejoin this list after a several year absence. And I'm totally jonesing to hear some folks in SF play that sort of complicated, polyrhythmic minimalism on a loud sound system. dd> I think, if you are going to compile a list of music like this dd> that is influential, you would have to include Adam Beyer and dd> Marco Carola (at least), if not Gaetek, Christian Smith and dd> joel mull. I agree that they've been influential, but I'd disagree if you were to argue that that's a good thing. Those folks were large part what pushed me away from techno. The whole Scandinavian banging sound was too raw for me; what I like about Surgeon is how pristine his recent material sounds (and his basslines _do_ have soul, if you pay attention to them). If it's going to be raw, it needs extra soul -- something Jeff Mills and Mad Mike understand very well, but the folks on Primate don't (in my opinion, natch). The folks I have clumped into Surgeon's constellation include James Ruskin, and Oliver Ho. All started from roughly the same point (unvarnished love for Mills' and Young's variety of uncompromising minimalism) and all of them have developed a more intricate, tribal sound over the past few years. Sometimes it gets difficult to tell Ruskin and Surgeon apart (on record; I've never seen either of them DJ), which is sort of a problem for me, but I'm not sure why, because I really love the music. Along those lines, on another whim I picked up Karl O'Connor and Peter Sutton's _Against Nature_ on Tresor recently, and its much the same as the aforementioned and is also really, really good. So I guess I have to add Regis and Female (which means we now have the entire Downwards roster here, doesn't it?) to the list of folks who are doing interesting things in this vein. It's much less harsh and distorted than the old Regis and Female stuff, and I'd almost be willing to bet money that Surgeon lent a hand in the studio during the making of this. Most of it is pretty banging (the Tresor site wants us to believe that it's "industrial", but 30 second chunks of found sound do not an industrial record make), but "Under Skin" is the sort of wrenchingly pretty instrumental interlude that wouldn't be out of place on a Derrick May or Jeff Mills record. I should see if Harald is interested in updating his Tresor discography. They've been putting out the goods recently. Does anyone here have any opinions on Tobias Schmidt's _Dark of Heartness_? ob313: Only three years late, I finally picked up the Derrick May _Innovator_ comp today. It's really, really nice to have all those self-evidently seminal tracks in one place. :) I have no idea why it took me so long. Forrest . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Re: [313] Kenny Larkin
>>>>> "jm" == Jason Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: jm> He also did one Lp on r&s called Metaphor. Similar sounds and jm> a different approach, equally as good IMO.. came out around jm> (god) 97? 98? There was a wild carl craig remix of one of the jm> tracks of that lp called catatonic.. well worth hunting down.. For whatever reason, I prefer _Metaphor_ to _Azimuth_. It's bouncier, or harder, or something. That Carl Craig remix is excellent, too. jm> well its been a while since i've been on 313, just jm> resubbed.. any of you old originals still around? :) There's plenty of cranky old farts lurking around here... Hi, Jason! yours, ozy . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
I'm confused (was Re: (313) Jeff Mills - The Art of Connecting)
[ I sent this out a while ago, but either you all thought my obsessive trainspotting was too sad to merit comment or it didn't make it through to the list. -- ozy ] The recent mention of _The Art Of Connecting_ has me wondering what Mills is thinking these days. In addition to owning the majority of the Axis and Purpose Maker releases on 12", I own these CD compilations (duplicated tracks marked with exclamation points): o Waveform Transmissions vol 1 (Axis / Tresor / Pow Wow Trance, US) 1) Phase 4 2) Jerical 3) Changes Of Life 4) Berlin 5) The Hacker 6) Late Night ! 7) DNA 8) Man Like o Waveform Transmissions vol 3 (Axis / Tresor, US) 1) The Extremist 2) Solid Sleep 3) Life Cycle 4) Workers 5) Wrath Of The Punisher ! 6) DNA ! 7) Condor To Mallorca 8) Basic Human Design o The Other Day (Axis, Japanese) 1) Solarized ! 2) Gamma Player 3) Sleeping Giants 4) i9 5) Time Out Of Mind 6) Growth 7) Gateway of Zen 8) Medusa 9) Man From Tomorrow 10) Spider Formation 11) Childhood [Maria's Mix] 12) Humana 13) Inner Life (529) ! 14) Eclipse ! 15) Nepta 16) Mercury o Lifelike (Axis / Purpose Maker, French) 1) Yantra ! 2) Condor to Mallorca 3) Global Factor 4) Zenith ! 5) Nepta 6) Babylon 7) Minnia (The Queen's Theme) 8) Detached 9) Systematic 10) Cometh (only) 11) Solara 12) Avenger ! 13) Eclipse 14) With/Dove Stuff that's out there but that I don't have: o Purpose Maker Compilation 1) Dancer 2) Casa ! 3) Bells 4) Reverting 5) Alarms 6) Outsiders 7) Cubango 8) Medicine Man 9) Paradise 10) Masterplan 11) Fly Guy 12) Fuzz Dancer 13) Tango 14) Captivate o The Art of Connecting (Axis, Australia (others?)) 1) Deckard ! 2) Nepta ! 3) Gamma Player 4) 4 Art 5) Pacific State Of Mind 6) Cobolt ! 7) The Bells 8) Java 9) UFO 10) Utopia The thing that confuses me is the way that tracks from one of Mills' releases will pop up on another. What it looks like is that Mills is releasing a whole bunch of collections all over the place without really trying to avoid overlap. I don't get why he feels the need to have the overlap, because anyone who goes to the lengths necessary to find one of these releases (none of which, aside from the Waveform Transmissions records, are particularly easy to find) will try to find them all. Additionally, his albums are always admirably terse (no irony implied) so it's even weirder to have material duplicated from one release to another. I guess I'd be more inclined to buy another Mills album if I didn't already have a big chunk of that material. It's not like Mills doesn't have a huge backlog of unreleased stuff that's high quality -- all of the recent mixes I've heard by him have been filled with amazing stuff I've never heard anywhere else (although I'm only guessing it's by Mr. Mills). He's a puzzling guy. On an unrelated topic, thanks to all who said nice things about the _Mixed Up In The Hague_ compilation a while ago. I picked it up this weekend and it is indeed verrah nice. It's like a cleaner-sounding version of one of those great old Hot Mix tapes TeeP used to send me once upon a time. still alive, ozymandias . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
Track ID
This is driving me nuts. I have a dub of Jeff Mills's set from _I Love Techno_ from last summer, and there's a track on there (near the beginning of his set, I think, although since the MP3 I have just jumps right in I have no real idea) I'd really like to identify. It sounds like it could be by Mills himself, but I don't think it is. It's tribal and trancy at the same time, with a totally wicked, harshly (and trebly) filtered tribal percussion line (sounds like the old Tronik House breakbeat) over the top. Plust it has that "boom boom boomboomboom" kick drum pattern that Mills seems to love so much. It sorta sounds like it could have been on Reload back in the day, but with more of that Mills feel. Any help would be totally appreciated (I know the description sucks, but hey, it's techno, what do you want/). Tracks like that really make me want to make music. Hell, if anyone has a track listing for that set and felt like sharing, that would be great. Mills is not the world's most technically proficient DJ, but his fucking up is more interesting than most other DJs' perfection. Plus he seems to be finding all the new records that fail to suck in the most intense possible way. ozy PS -- I sent out an e-mail on Mills' recent output a while ago, but I don't think it ever got through. I'll resend it following this. . . . the self-reflecting image of a narcotized mind . . . ozymandias G desiderata [EMAIL PROTECTED] desperate, deathless (415)558-9064http://www.aoaioxxysz.com/ ::AOAIOXXYSZ::
