Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Paulo Eleuterio Tiburcio]

Jack Campin escreveu:
> 
> > 5. Line terminators
[...] 
> BBEdit Lite does the same (and the full version of BBEdit also manages
> site uploading for you).  But the problem isn't with text processors,
> it's with brainless transfer agents that don't convert terminators in
> text files properly.  If the original file uses any of the standard
> options coherently, it's not the source site's problem if duff web
> browsers and mail agents fuck up.
>

John Walsh escreveu
> I have a bunch of files that I've transferred between Unix and Dos,
> and edited on both, so they have some line endings from each. (And
> it'll get worse if I ever get that Mac notbook...)

In fact the flaws are all along the line, IMHO:

1   ABC relies on line terminators as a meaningful unit of coding.  SGML
(and its offspring HTML), on the contrary, avoids relying on them
exactly for reasons of portability, but even so has an algorithm to
handle them in the couple of circumstances they might be a point (please
see Martin Bryan's "SGML and HTML Explained" chapter 11, section "11.4 -
The effect of record boundaries" at http://www.personal.u-net.com/~sgml/book/home.htm#Contents>).

2   Text editors should allow you to keep consistency in line terminator
formatting upon request (or not, if for some reason the file format you
are typing assigns different roles to CR and LF and their combinations),
instead of assuming just one of several possibilities.  Some try to
guess the format regardless of the local system's default.

3   ABC software don't seem to be generally aware of platform
specificities.  They should take portability issues into account and
process line terminator candidates one by one trying to make sense out
of them to allow for mixed platform editing à la John Walsh and minimize
the risk of misinterpretation of the author's intention.  E.g.,
 and  would be
both interpreted as , but there would
be no solution for cases in which a  further received
a  upon editing on another platform (resulting in
).  Again, that is the consequence of not having
an explicit code to signal meaningful line ending in ABC language.

I think it's too late to change the way ABC encodes functional line
termination;  also we cannot expect the other segments (text processors,
network transfer software) to deal with ABC specific issues.  So, it's
up to ABC software developers, who are concerned with these problems, to
manage workarounds where due.

Regards,

Paulo Eleutério Tibúrcio
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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[John Walsh]

Jack Campin writes:

>But the problem isn't with text processors,it's with brainless 
>transfer agents that don't convert terminators in
>text files properly.  
>

I have a bunch of files that I've transferred between Unix and Dos, and
edited on both, so they have some line endings from each. (And it'll get
worse if I ever get that Mac notbook...)  There must be a lot of other
people who do the same, so mixed line endings may not be that uncommon. Most
editors these days seem to handle it gracefully, so one tends not to
notice---I usually have to open a file in vi to make sure---but I don't know
that you can always blame the transfer agents for not picking it up.

Cheers,
John Walsh


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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Jack Campin]

> 3. Separated or intermingled voice lines.
> This is a rather messy problem we ought to discuss at length here at
> abcusers. It's not an issue specially related to Susato, though.

Well it is, sort of.  The point of my reformatting of your source
was that for music in Susato's idiom - metrical dance pieces with
the voices running closely in parallel and where each structural unit
fits happily into one line of source - intermingled lines are better.
For imitative contrapuntal pieces of the same era they might not be.
We need both, and we need our software to interconvert between the
two forms without treating one or other as second-class.


> 5. Line terminators
>> This file has  terminated lines...
> I'm afraid that problem is a bit beyond me. As far as I know,
> SaintEdit is the only Macintosh text processor that allows you
> to specify line terminators, and I don't fancy opening each and
> every Musica Viva document in SaintEdit before uploading.

BBEdit Lite does the same (and the full version of BBEdit also manages
site uploading for you).  But the problem isn't with text processors,
it's with brainless transfer agents that don't convert terminators in
text files properly.  If the original file uses any of the standard
options coherently, it's not the source site's problem if duff web
browsers and mail agents fuck up.

===  ===


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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Phil Taylor]

Frank Nordberg wrote:

>5. Line terminators
>
>RJP wrote:
>> This file has  terminated lines...
>
>I'm afraid that problem is a bit beyond me. As far as I know, SaintEdit
>is the only Macintosh text processor that allows you to specify line
>terminators, and I don't fancy opening each and every Musica Viva
>document in SaintEdit before uploading.
>
>Any suggestions for solving this?

You can do it in BarFly, but only one document at a time.  In the replace
dialog you can represent any character by means of a bullet mark (option-
8) followed by the numerical ascii value of that character.  The CR
character is 13 and the LF is 10.  So, if you want to convert to convert
a Mac format file (CR) to a PC format file (CRLF) you open the file,
place the insertion point at the very start, choose Replace Text...
from the Edit menu, and enter *13 in the "Search for" box and *13*10
in the "Replace with" box.  (The bullet mark may not survive emailing,
but that's what the character before the number is.)  Check the "Replace
all" box and hit OK.  The document will then appear to be double-spaced,
as BarFly's editor treats both CR and LF as valid end of line markers.
Save it immediately without touching anything else.  Remember that if
you open that file again in BarFly it will be converted back to Mac
format if you save it.  If you want to format your files for Unix rather
than PC use *10 in the "Replace with" box in place of *13*10.

If this is likely to be a common requirement I might add a popup menu
to the save dialog to let you simply save the file with various line-
termination options.  I think most of the heavyweight Mac text editors
BBEdit, Alpha, the CodeWarrior IDE editor, already have this option.

I once wrote a drag-and-drop application to do this kind of thing on
bulk files, but it was a long time ago and would probably require a
major archaeological dig to find it.

Phil Taylor


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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Simon Wascher]

Hallo,

Frank Nordberg wrote:
> Oh well, here's my summary:
(...)
> 4. P: field
(...)
> I don't think many ABC applications supports things like
> P: Reprise

Barfly and abc2ps do accept the P:field in the body as a simple text
string above the bar if there is no P:field in the header (BarFly opens
a dialog-window if you use a P:field in the header which does not follow
the standard, you have to quit this before playback is continued) and I
think most other programs will too (please users and authors of other
programs, give us a report).

> 5. Line terminators
> 
> RJP wrote:
> > This file has  terminated lines...
> 
> I'm afraid that problem is a bit beyond me. As far as I know, SaintEdit
> is the only Macintosh text processor that allows you to specify line
> terminators, and I don't fancy opening each and every Musica Viva
> document in SaintEdit before uploading.

I use a freeware Mac editor called BBEdit Lite, which I use a lot for
editing my abc files anyway, for doing this job. 

> 
> Any suggestions for solving this?

At the long run, the best would be if abc programs themselves would 
have this editing facilities to specify line terminators and/or can
recognize, accept, replace all kinds and combinations of linebreakes.

regards

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Frank Nordberg]

Seems the typo devil worked overtime on my previous posting. Don't know
what came over me.
Sorry for mis-spelling your name, John. And sorry for all the other
weird typos too.

One of them really needs a clarification. The barring example should be:

> 
> M:C|
> L:1/4
> c-|c/B/c/d/ ec|cc/d/ e/c/d/e/|fd2f|...
> 
> instead of:
> M:3/4
> L:1/4
> c>B c/d/|ecc|c/d/e/c/d/e/|fd2|...
> 
> (from the beginning of "Bergeret sans roch")

of course.


Frank
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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Frank Nordberg]

Thanks to everybody who responded to my Susato posting - and especially
to Phil who sent me a really usfeul error reprort privately.

I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate much myself in the
discussion(s) I triggered, but it seems you've managed quite nicely
without me, so I guess it didn't matter much.

Oh well, here's my summary:

---

1. Editorial accidentals.

Simon Wascher (I think) wrote:
> I usually use "#"A or "b"A to show editorial accidentals.

Phil Taylor replied:
> Yes.  Perhaps "^#" would be better.

I'd go for Phil's suggestion if it wasn't for two details, the "^xxx"
and "_xxx" text string syntaxes aren't stanrdaized enough yet and
there's no way to get playback of such accidentals.

John Chamner's (_) and (^) suggestion is a very good idea too, btw, but
I don~'t think there is any abc application that can actually understand this.

---

2. Barlines

Contrary to my normal policy, I will keep the barlines and add a note
saying "no barlines in the original".
There is one very unusual reason for this. Most people know Susato from
F. J. Giesbert's 1936 transcription of Danserye - or from any of the
hundreds of rip-offs of Giesbert's edition.
Unfortunately Giesbert didn't know nearly as much as he liked to think
about renaissance music. So he transcribed some of the pieces with
absolutely ridiculous barring, such as:

M:C|
L:1/4
c-|c/B/c/d/ ec|cc/d/ e/c/d/e/|fd2f|...

instead of:
M:3/5
L:1/4
c>B cd|ecc|c/d/e/c/d/e/|fd2|...

(from the beginning of "Bergeret sans roch")

Unfortuantely, despite his lack of knowledge about the subject, Giesbert
was long considered an authority in the early music community, so his
editions remained unchallenged for too long, leaving the best pieces of
Danserye virtually unplayable.
So I've decided to add some more sensible barring to my edition to try
to counteract this long-lasting and unfortunate misunderstanding.

---

3. Separated or intermingled voice lines.

This is a rather messy problem we ought to discuss at length here at
abcusers. It's not an issue specially related to Susato, though.

---

4. P: field

Simon Wascher wrote:
> Why do'nt you use the P:field within the tune body for the "Reprise"
> text?
...
> To my personal understanding I always wonder why someone created a field
> that organizes the playing order and does not allow the usual part and
> playing order terms to be used within.

John Chambers replied:
> As far as I can tell,  Chris  never  said  that  such  things  aren't
> allowed.

Both Simon and John are right, of course. But I don't think many ABC
applications supports things like
P: Reprise

---

5. Line terminators

RJP wrote:
> This file has  terminated lines...

I'm afraid that problem is a bit beyond me. As far as I know, SaintEdit
is the only Macintosh text processor that allows you to specify line
terminators, and I don't fancy opening each and every Musica Viva
document in SaintEdit before uploading.

Any suggestions for solving this?



Frank Nordberg

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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[John Chambers]

James Allwright  writes:
| abc2midi should handle all the variants of the end-of-line marker correctly.
| However, sometimes a chain of automatic conversions will produce 2 end-of-line
| markers for each line. Could it be that this is what happened in this
| case ?

That's good to hear. And your guess might well be correct.  I've seen
a lot of abc tunes damaged this way.  My tune finder's search bot has
found a number of sites whose abc tunes can't be  identified  because
they come across as double spaced, and it's obvious that this sort of
double spacing is the explanation.  So far, I haven't spent the  time
it would take to undo this problem.

There was a  cute  bit  of  humor  on  the  subject  a  week  ago  on
segfault.org.   Go  to http://segfault.org/ and look near the bottom,
the "Microsoft Changes Newline Character" article.

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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[James Allwright]

abc2midi should handle all the variants of the end-of-line marker correctly.
However, sometimes a chain of automatic conversions will produce 2 end-of-line
markers for each line. Could it be that this is what happened in this 
case ?

James Allwright

On Tue 04 Sep 2001 at 08:40PM +, John Chambers wrote:
> 
> 
> RJP writes:
> | On 03,Sep/01 8:30 pm, you wrote:
> | > Just like to tell everybody at abcusers that I've just posted a complete
> | > ABC edition of Tielman Susato's "Danserye" at
> | > http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/tunes/susato-tielman/susato-1551.abc
> |
> | This file has  terminated lines I have fixed it using the KDE binary
> | editor  so that abc2midi et.al. can read it on linux.
> 
> Hmmm ... abc2midi has that problem, too? Maybe I'll patch my copy and
> send  in the changes.  I did this several years back with abc2ps.  It
> was about a  2-line  change.   Michael  Methfessel  incorporated  the
> change, and abc2ps has since accepted Mac files with no problems.  At
> least in C, it's sorta trivial to do this sort of thing.  Most  linux
> software  these days is rather nonchalant about line terminators.  We
> oughta get abc2midi in line with the rest.
> 
> It's amazing how long such mistakes can continue to haunt us ...
> 
> To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: 
>http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Jack Campin]

[voice alignment in ABC source]
> how are you doing with beamed music ? Most the traditional music
> I am dealing with is made up from 1/8 and 1/16 notes. The beams
> contain a lot of the rhythmical information.

It is an absolute bugger that there isn't a portable something-other-
than-code-32 space in the ASCII character set that ABC could use (so
as to have a visual space in the source that wouldn't produce a beam
break).  Standard Mac fonts have one (which works in BarFly if you
don't try to combine it with too many other beaming-related features)
but there's no way any non-Mac system could use it.

So what I do is align the initial notes of beamed groups: lots of
examples on my website.  This is better than making no attempt at
readability, though it doesn't go as far as I'd like.  (Highland pipe
music can be difficult, with beamed melody note groups containing
multiple separately beamed groups of gracenotes).  Sometimes I'll
introduce a beam break that isn't in the score I'm working from if
I judge that source readability matters more than reproducing the
original exactly - often there are alternate conventions for length
of beams anyway.

===  ===


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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[John Chambers]

RJP writes:
| On 03,Sep/01 8:30 pm, you wrote:
| > Just like to tell everybody at abcusers that I've just posted a complete
| > ABC edition of Tielman Susato's "Danserye" at
| > http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/tunes/susato-tielman/susato-1551.abc
|
| This file has  terminated lines I have fixed it using the KDE binary
| editor  so that abc2midi et.al. can read it on linux.

Hmmm ... abc2midi has that problem, too? Maybe I'll patch my copy and
send  in the changes.  I did this several years back with abc2ps.  It
was about a  2-line  change.   Michael  Methfessel  incorporated  the
change, and abc2ps has since accepted Mac files with no problems.  At
least in C, it's sorta trivial to do this sort of thing.  Most  linux
software  these days is rather nonchalant about line terminators.  We
oughta get abc2midi in line with the rest.

It's amazing how long such mistakes can continue to haunt us ...

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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[rjp]

On 03,Sep/01 8:30 pm, you wrote:
> Just like to tell everybody at abcusers that I've just posted a complete
> ABC edition of Tielman Susato's "Danserye" at
> http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/tunes/susato-tielman/susato-1551.abc

This file has  terminated lines I have fixed it using the KDE binary 
editor  so that abc2midi et.al. can read it on linux.

Quite a lot of errors flagged - but very likely still useful. - sound OK
to me anyway :-)

-- 
RJP - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> .


 susato-1551-lf.abc.gz

Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Simon Wascher]

Jack Campin wrote:
> >Simon Wascher wrote: 
> > I would find it much better to write the music voice after voice.  It
> > is not really possible to read the four voices in parallel in the abc
> > text anyway
> 
> Not unless the source is laid out helpfully, but for this sort of
> music it can be quite easily. 

Its a pitty that not all the music is that helpfully :o)

(...)

> V:1 E/ F/  G G G |G3  F |E  C  C  D |B,2  G,2 |E/ F/  G  G G |G3  F |E  C  C D  
>|G,2 G,2:|

how are you doing with beamed music ? Most the traditional music I am
dealing with is made up from 1/8 and 1/16 notes. The beams contain a lot
of the rhythmical information.

(...)

> > and it is complicate to extract parts for playing.
> This is a pretty trivial editing task, BarFly has most of this
> functionality built in already, and it can't take more than a few
> lines of some scripting/patternmatching language to achieve it.

I am a user :-)

regards

Simon Wascher

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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[John Chambers]

Laura writes:
| > "John" == John Chambers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
| John> Making "^#"A work is trivial with abc2ps.  You  find  the  code  that
| John> parses  such  quoted  chord  symbols,  and  have it ignore an initial
| John> circumflex. This is one line of C. I've done this in my abc2ps clone.
| John> Making it handle "_#"A correctly is a bit trickier, since you have to
| John> figure out how to position the "#" text string below the note.
|
| I'd actually settle for the "_#" being printed above the note, but
| without the _.  Which should be equally trivial; I didn't ask if it
| was hard; I asked if anyone had done it.

Yeah; that was what my first pass did.  This was just to verify  that
the  parse  was  correct  (and an above/below flag was set properly).
Then I worked on figuring out how to get "_foo" text positioned below
the  staff.  This still isn't perfect, because I don't quite grok how
the program positions things.  There ain't much documentation ...

One thing I would wonder is whether "^#" or "^^" would be better. For
flats,  it's more interesting, since "^b" and "_b" put the letter 'b'
on the page, and it'd be nicer to get a real flat symbol.   You'd  do
that  presumably  with  "^_"  and  "__".  Then there's the problem of
explaining this to a novice in simple words.

In any case, to abc2ps or any other formatter, the  fact  that  we're
putting  accidentals  above or below the note isn't very interesting.
It's just a chunk of text, with maybe some text being replaced with a
"funny"  character,  an  icon  of  some  sort.  So "^#" is really not
materially different from "^ff" or "^legato". But it might be nice to
recognize  special  strings like "_da segno" and replace "segno" with
the usual symbol.

And I'm still tempted to implement parens around accidentals.  Anyone
want to be the first on their block to do this?

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Re: P:field [Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes]

[Simon Wascher]

John Chambers wrote:
> 
> 
Hello,

> Simon Wascher schrieb:
(...)
> | $ Example: P:[Einleitung][1.][1.][2.][2.][1.][Ausgang]

John Chambers wrote:
> Less messy would be to just use either of:
>   $ Example: P:Einleitung,1,1,2,2,1,Ausgang
>   $ Example: P:Einleitung 1 1 2 2 1 Ausgang
> 
> These are both unambiguous and more readable. 

(The dot after the number was intended to be printed: "1." in the
P:field in the body)

My intention was a standard that allows empty spaces, commas and other
common characters within an active P:field, I thought that squared
brackets as separators are the most un-used but commonly known and
available characters, which also have the advantage to have a direction,
so there is a clear i n b e t w e e n (and in opposit to < > they are
not html).

Examples:
P:second part  
(why not?)

P:Einleitung, auch als Coda 


regards

Simon

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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Laura Conrad]

> "John" == John Chambers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

John> Making "^#"A work is trivial with abc2ps.  You  find  the  code  that
John> parses  such  quoted  chord  symbols,  and  have it ignore an initial
John> circumflex. This is one line of C. I've done this in my abc2ps clone.
John> Making it handle "_#"A correctly is a bit trickier, since you have to
John> figure out how to position the "#" text string below the note.

I'd actually settle for the "_#" being printed above the note, but
without the _.  Which should be equally trivial; I didn't ask if it
was hard; I asked if anyone had done it.

-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[John Chambers]

Laura Conrad asks:
| > "Phil" == Phil Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
|
| >> I usually use "#"A or "b"A to show editorial accidentals.
|
| Phil> Yes.  Perhaps "^#" would be better.
|
| Are there any abc2ps variants that have implemented this feature?

Well, abc2ps has accepted "#"A and "b"A from the  start.   The  stuff
inside double quotes is just text, and is placed above the note. Such
programs don't need to understand the  text,  and  abc2ps  has  never
parsed chord symbols.

Making "^#"A work is trivial with abc2ps.  You  find  the  code  that
parses  such  quoted  chord  symbols,  and  have it ignore an initial
circumflex. This is one line of C. I've done this in my abc2ps clone.
Making it handle "_#"A correctly is a bit trickier, since you have to
figure out how to position the "#" text string below the note.

The real problem with this notation is that abc2ps  only  allows  one
such quoted string before a note.  So you can't have both a chord and
an accidental, like "F#7""^#"A.

But multiple such text attachments to a note would be useful, and I've
been thinking more and more of figuring out how to implement it.  For
example:  "F#7""^fp""^#""<4"A"_d.C.".

(How's that for unreadable? ;-)
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Re: P:field [Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes]

[John Chambers]

Simon Wascher schrieb:
| Why do'nt you use the P:field within the tune body for the "Reprise"
| text?
...
| To my personal understanding I always wonder why someone created a field
| that organizes the playing order and does not allow the usual part and
| playing order terms to be used within.

As far as I can tell,  Chris  never  said  that  such  things  aren't
allowed.   He  merely described the two kinds of P lines, and gave an
example of their use in one kind of music  (Morris  dance).   When  I
first  read this, my immediate reaction was that P could obviously be
used for such things as P:Intro or  P:Trio.   There  was  nothing  in
Chris's documentation to discourage this.  I was a bit surprised when
I found that some people interpreted Chris's one example  as  meaning
that nothing else is allowed.  These are all valid interpretations of
the English term "part", after all.

| In fact, the P: field mixes up two things in an unfortunate way: P: as
| in part P: as in playing order (of these parts)

Chris's original documentation made it clear that P in the header and
P within the tune had different meanings. He didn't say much more. It
was pretty obvious that P lines in the music should contain only  one
symbol  that named that part, and the one P line in the header should
contain only the symbols used in the music section.  How such  things
as  repeats were indicated was left unstated (possibly partly because
the Morris dance crowd isn't even very consistent about this).

| $ Example: P:[Einleitung][1.][1.][2.][2.][1.][Ausgang]

Less messy would be to just use either of:
  $ Example: P:Einleitung,1,1,2,2,1,Ausgang
  $ Example: P:Einleitung 1 1 2 2 1 Ausgang

These are both unambiguous and more readable.  And, given  the  large
amount  of ABC that is hand-typed (by people who can't even bother to
include an X line ;-), this is probably what  you'll  see  no  matter
what  a future standard may say.  Remember that ABC is used as a sort
of musical shorthand in person-to-person communication; it isn't just
a computer notation. There are people who read and write ABC directly
and don't use any ABC software.

We might also note that Chris's original descriptions dealt only with
abc2mtex, which is a music formatter. Like abc2ps, it doesn't need to
understand P lines; it only needs to recognize them and copy the text
to  the  right  place on the output page.  For such programs, there's
little need to standardize what text can be on a P line.   It's  just
text, with no actual meaning.  However, we also now have ABC players,
and they do need to understand P lines.  So  we  should  probably  be
concerned with making the syntax as simple and parsable as we can, if
we want it to actually be implemented consistently.

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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Jack Campin]

> I would find it much better to write the music voice after voice.  It
> is not really possible to read the four voices in parallel in the abc
> text anyway

Not unless the source is laid out helpfully, but for this sort of
music it can be quite easily.  I haven't changed a note in Frank's
transcription, or made any changes to the generated staff notation,
to do this.  It does need a wider-than-80-column screen but nothing
very exotic.  You can see exactly which chord is being played at
every point.  I have yet to see a four-part hymn setting for which
this layout methodology won't work.

X:5
T:La mourisque
T:(Basse dansse 5)
C:Tielman Susato
S:Tileman Susato: Danserye (1551)
Z:Transcribed by Frank Nordberg - http://www.musicaviva.com
%This is a temporary version - please don't redistribute yet
N:adapted by Jack Campin to regularize the layout for vertical reading, use more
N:reasonable clefs, and to employ instruments that sound better on a small Mac
V:1 Program 1 68 alto % oboe
V:2 Program 1 68 alto % oboe
V:3 Program 1 70 bass % bassoon
V:4 Program 1 57 bass % trombone
R:Basse dance
M:4/2
L:1/2
Q:1/2=210
K:C
V:1 E/ F/  G G G |G3  F |E  C  C  D |B,2  G,2 |E/ F/  G  G G |G3  F |E  C  C D  
|G,2 G,2:|
V:2 C/ A,/ C C C |C3  A,|C  A, A, A,|G,2  B,2 |C/ A,/ C  C C |C3  A,|C  A, A,B, 
|C2  C2 :|
V:3 G,/F,/ E,E,E,|E,3 F,|C, E, E, F,|D,2  D,G,|G,/F,/ E, E,E,|E,3 F,|C,>D, E,/C,/G, 
|E,2 E,2:|
V:4 C,/D,/ C,C,C,|C,3 D,|A,,A,,A,,D,|G,,2 G,,2|C,/D,/ C, C,C,|C,3 D,|A,,A,,A,,   
G,,|C,2 C,2:|
%
V:1 z E  E C  |C  D  E C  |F D  E C |C  D  B,2 |G, E  E C  |C  D  E C  |F D  E C |C  D 
 G,2:|
V:2 z E, G,A, |A, E, G,C, |A,B, C C,|E, D, D,2 |D, E, E,A, |A, D, G,C, |A,B, C G,|A, 
G, E,2:|
V:3 z G, E,E, |F, F, E,A, |F,G, E,E,|A, F, G,2 |G, G, E,E, |F, F, E,A, |F,G, E,E,|E, 
D, C,2:|
V:4 z C, C,A,,|A,,B,,C,A,,|D,G,,C,C,|A,,D, G,,2|G,,C, 
C,A,,|A,,B,,C,A,,|D,G,,C,C,|A,,B,,C,2:|
%
W:
W:  From Musica Viva - http://www.musicaviva.com
W:  the Internet center for free sheet music downloads.

This second example goes further, lining up corresponding beats both within
and between sections so you can compare chord progressions between them:

X:38
T:Mille regretz
C:Tielman Susato
S:Susato1551
Z:Transcribed by Frank Nordberg - http://www.musicaviva.com
%This is a temporary version - please don't redistribute yet
N:adapted by Jack Campin to regularize the layout for vertical reading
N:and to employ instruments that sound better on a small Mac
V:1 Program 1 74  % recorder
V:2 Program 1 46  % harp pretending to be a lute
V:3 Program 1 46 alto % harp pretending to be a lute
V:4 Program 1 33 bass % electric bass guitar pretending to be a theorbo
R:Pavane
M:C|
L:1/4
K:Am
V:1 E4   |A2A2  |G3F/E/|D  C  D2  |C c  c  c |B2A> B  |c>B  A2  |^G2  
z2:|
V:2 B,4  |A,2   D2  |B,3   A,  |B, C  A,2 |C>D  E  F |G2F2|E E> C D | E2  
z2:|
V:3 E4   |C2F2  |E3D/C/|B, E  FD  |E3  C |D  E  C2|A,B, C A,| B,2 
z2:|
V:4 E,4  |F,2   D,2 |E,3   F,  |G, A, D,2 |A,2  A, A,|G, E, F,>G, |A,G, F,2 | E,2 
z2:|
%
V:1 c2  B  A |G A   A A |G E  F2   |E2zB  |c2   A2   |B2e2|d c  B A |^G2  
z2.|
V:2 G2  G  E |E E   F D |E E  D2   |G,2   G,2 |A,C> B, A,|G, G, C> B, |A,G, G E | E2  
z2:|
V:3 E2  D  C |B,C   C A,|B,C2  B,  |C2B,2 |E2   E2   |E3   E  |F E  D C | B,2 
z2:|
V:4 C,2 G, A,|E,A,, F,F,|E,C, D,2  |C,2   E,2 |A,,2 A,,2 |E,2   C,2   |D,E, G,A,| E,2 
z2:|
%
V:1 E2  G  G |D  d  d d |c2   B2   |A  A  A A |G2   F2   |E  E  G  E  |G2   E>F | G2  
z2:|
V:2 G,2 G, G,|D> E  F G |E2   E2   |E  F  F F |E2   D2   |C  C  B, C  |B,2  C2  | B,2 
z2:|
V:3 C2  B, G,|B,>C  D B,|C A,2 G,  |A, C  C C |C2   A,>B,|C  A, G, A, |G,2  A,2 | G,2 
z2:|
V:4 C,2 E,>F,|G, G, D,G,|A,2  E,2  |A,,F, F,F,|C,2  D,2  |A,,A,,E, A,,|E,2  A,,2| E,2 
z2:|
%
W:
W:  From Musica Viva - http://www.musicaviva.com
W:  the Internet center for free sheet music downloads.


> and it is complicate to extract parts for playing.

This is a pretty trivial editing task, BarFly has most of this
functionality built in already, and it can't take more than a few
lines of some scripting/patternmatching language to achieve it.

Where do you get MIDI programs 2, 3 and 4 from?  Are they part of
Quicktime 5 or something?


-
Jack Campin  *   11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
tel 0131 660 4760  *  fax 0870 055 4975  *  http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/
food intolerance data & recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music


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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Frank Nordberg]

Simon Wascher wrote:
> 
> Frank Nordberg wrote:
> >
> > Just like to tell everybody at abcusers that I've just posted a complete
> > ABC edition of Tielman Susato's "Danserye"
> 
> Hey great, thats really nice.

Thanks :-)

> 
> > My transcriptions raises a few interesting questions regarding
> > ABC-versions of early music. Should we add barlines? How do we disern
> > between original and editorial accidentals? etc. etc. etc.
> > Anybody's views on those question are much apreciated.
> 
> I usually use "#"A or "b"A to show editorial accidentals.

That's a very good idea. But the problem is that those editorial
accidentals won't play back. There are some places in Danserye where you
have to flatten a note to get any sense out of it at all.
In BarFly I suppose you could (ab)use the ornament macros function for
"invisible" accidentals - something like:

m: In = _n

But that wouldn't work with any other abc application.

> About the barlines, I would primarily say no, lets give the source as
> pure as possible, but maybe for the sake of usability just add a note:
> no barlines in the source.

Yes, that's probably what I'd do. Some of the pieces at Danserye is very
hard to figure out without any indication of where the beats are, so an
unbarred edition would be for specialists only.
In standard notation I solve the problem by adding some extra blank
space where the barlines would have been. Maybe I could do that in ABC
as well, replacing the barlines with y spacers...
Just as a curiosity: the most common modern printed edition of Danserye
actually presents all the basse dances in 4/4 time even though they
clearly are in triple time!


Frank Nordberg


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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Laura Conrad]

> "Phil" == Phil Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> I usually use "#"A or "b"A to show editorial accidentals.

Phil> Yes.  Perhaps "^#" would be better.

Are there any abc2ps variants that have implemented this feature?

>> I still find that programmers should enable voice after voice input. The
>> way it is here simply mixes up text matters and layout matters (not your
>> fault).

Phil> I disagree.  Writing the abc line by line preserves the original
Phil> music layout in the abc, and I find it much more readable.

No, the original layout was partbooks, so voice after voice preserves
the original layout better.  

-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Laura Conrad]

> "Simon" == Simon Wascher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


Simon> I would find it much better to write the music voice after
Simon> voice.  It is not really possible to read the four voices
Simon> in paralell in the abc text anyway and it is complicate to
Simon> extract parts for playing.  

Not if you use abcselect, written by Christoph Dalisch.  You can find
it at his site:
http://www.emsland-aktuell.com/lautengesellschaft/cdmm/index.html


-- 
Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ )
(617) 661-8097  fax: (801) 365-6574 
233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139
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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Simon Wascher]

Hello,

Phil Taylor wrote:
> Simon Wascher wrote:
> >I would find it much better to write the
> >music voice after voice. (...)
> I disagree.  Writing the abc line by line preserves the original
> music layout in the abc,

Not necessarily, especially not if the original layout is no score but
single parts.

 and I find it much more readable.  I notice,
> however that in some of the pieces you have two lines in each voice.
> This seems to me to be the worst possible compromise.

that is not a compromise, that is a consequence. Since I need eight bars
per line in music display, the linebreak follows after the eight bar.
Since eight bars are very long and may cause corrupted linebreakes for
example in e-mails, I regulary put a backslash after every fourth bar
(this also makes the structure of the tune transparent). 


regards

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Phil Taylor]

Simon Wascher wrote:
>Frank Nordberg wrote:
>>
>> Just like to tell everybody at abcusers that I've just posted a complete
>> ABC edition of Tielman Susato's "Danserye"
>
>Hey great, thats really nice.

It is indeed - thank you Frank.

>> My transcriptions raises a few interesting questions regarding
>> ABC-versions of early music. Should we add barlines? How do we disern
>> between original and editorial accidentals? etc. etc. etc.
>> Anybody's views on those question are much apreciated.
>
>I usually use "#"A or "b"A to show editorial accidentals.

Yes.  Perhaps "^#" would be better.

>About the barlines, I would primarily say no, lets give the source as
>pure as possible, but maybe for the sake of usability just add a note:
>no barlines in the source.

It depends on what you are trying to do here.  Barlines do make the music
much easier to read, and easier to check for correctness.  Also it's
much easier for a user to take them out than it is to put them in again,
if that's what is required.

>I would find it much better to write the
>music voice after voice.  It is not really possible to read the four
>voices in paralell in the abc text anyway and it is complicate to
>extract parts for playing.
>I still find that programmers should enable voice after voice input. The
>way it is here simply mixes up text matters and layout matters (not your
>fault).

I disagree.  Writing the abc line by line preserves the original
music layout in the abc, and I find it much more readable.  I notice,
however that in some of the pieces you have two lines in each voice.
This seems to me to be the worst possible compromise.

Phil Taylor


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P:field [Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes]

[Simon Wascher]

Hello again,

Frank Nordberg wrote:
> http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/tunes/susato-tielman/susato-1551.abc

> My transcriptions raises a few interesting questions regarding
> ABC-versions of early music. Should we add barlines? How do we disern
> between original and editorial accidentals? etc. etc. etc.
> Anybody's views on those question are much apreciated. So are any error
> reprots, of course.

Why do'nt you use the P:field within the tune body for the "Reprise"
text? 
I know this is not classical standard, but if there is no P: in the
header, there is no reason not to use the P:field in the body for
something that is in fact exactly in the meaning of "Part".

To my personal understanding I always wonder why someone created a field
that organizes the playing order and does not allow the usual part and
playing order terms to be used within.

This is the standard:
P - parts; can be used in the header to state the order in  which
the  tune parts are played, i.e.  P:ABABCDCD, and then inside the
tune to mark each part, i.e.  P:A or P:B.

In fact, the P: field mixes up two things in an unfortunate way: P: as
in part P: as in playing order (of these parts)

So my sugestion to an extension of the standard is:

$ instead of single letters numbers or words can be used. Within 
$ the header these words or numbers need to be in [square brackets]. 
$ Example: P:[Einleitung][1.][1.][2.][2.][1.][Ausgang] 
$ To enable this the words or numbers in the playing order within 
$ the header need to equal exactly the words and numbers of the 
$ P:fields in the body of the tune.
$ If there is no P:field in the header of the tune the contents of 
$ the P:fields within the tune body are just text, and should be 
$ used for usual terms for marking parts.

If my english is not sufficient please correct me, I hope you can get
the meaning.

regards

Simon Wascher -Vienna, Austria

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Re: [abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Simon Wascher]

Frank Nordberg wrote:
> 
> Just like to tell everybody at abcusers that I've just posted a complete
> ABC edition of Tielman Susato's "Danserye" 

Hey great, thats really nice.

> My transcriptions raises a few interesting questions regarding
> ABC-versions of early music. Should we add barlines? How do we disern
> between original and editorial accidentals? etc. etc. etc.
> Anybody's views on those question are much apreciated.

I usually use "#"A or "b"A to show editorial accidentals. 
About the barlines, I would primarily say no, lets give the source as
pure as possible, but maybe for the sake of usability just add a note:
no barlines in the source. I would find it much better to write the
music voice after voice.  It is not really possible to read the four
voices in paralell in the abc text anyway and it is complicate to
extract parts for playing. 
I still find that programmers should enable voice after voice input. The
way it is here simply mixes up text matters and layout matters (not your
fault).

Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria

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[abcusers] Susato's Danseryes

[Frank Nordberg]

Just like to tell everybody at abcusers that I've just posted a complete
ABC edition of Tielman Susato's "Danserye" at
http://www.musicaviva.com/abc/tunes/susato-tielman/susato-1551.abc
As usual this is a temporary, abcusers only URL - valid until I've had
time to add the music to the main body of the Musica Viva collection.
(*That* might take quite a while.)

"Danserye" is a collection of 59 or so (it's often hard to tell when one
piece ends and the next begins) dance tunes in four part settings,
published by Tielman Susato in Atwerpen 1551. It's probably the best
known source for renaissance dance music today.

My transcriptions raises a few interesting questions regarding
ABC-versions of early music. Should we add barlines? How do we disern
between original and editorial accidentals? etc. etc. etc.
Anybody's views on those question are much apreciated. So are any error
reprots, of course.


Frank Nordberg
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