Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
I'm catching up on old email here. Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:41:01 +0100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Phil Taylor) Bernard Hill wrote: Why is it so great? What's wrong with z8 (or z6 or whatever is appropriate)? Presumably because you can write | Z5 | and have the program interpret it as | z8 | z8 | z8 | z8 | z8 |, thus saving a lot of typing. Also, because in typeset music, Z5 would give you a five-bar rest that looks like this: | -5- | Whereas five bars of rest using five z8 bars would give you: | - | - | - | - | - | (Imagine that - is a whole rest.) Each of these forms has its own uses in typeset music. Both should play identically. Jeff To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jack Campin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes John Norvell wrote: In this line BBe2A4 e2 :| Z ||! what does the Z mean? A Rest. But I wonder if it meas a whole bar rest (uppercase) - z8 is more usual assuming L:1/8 So is Z a new symbol for a full bar rest? Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote: So is Z a new symbol for a full bar rest? Uppercase Z means a full bar rest, Z# with # a natural number means multibar rest. This is documented in the abc2midi documentation, together with several other common extensions. Groeten, Irwin Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~~* Chazzanut Online: http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/ To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote: Good grief, is anyone ever going to put all this lot together? It's not in the official standard or the draft extension. How are developers supposed to work with this mish-mash? I missed this one (a single uppercase 'Z' meaning 1 measure rest), but a lot of information is contained in my 'Typesetting Music with ABC' (http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/#Typesetting%20Music%20with%20ABC). Incidentally, it's going to become 'Making Music with ABC' because I want to cover abcMIDI and BarFly. I'll add the 'Z' thing. Later, Guido =8-) -- Guido Gonzato, Ph.D. guido . gonzato at univr . it - Linux System Manager Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN. Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy) Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
From: Bernard Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Good grief, is anyone ever going to put all this lot together? It's not in the official standard or the draft extension. How are developers supposed to work with this mish-mash? My feeling exactly. It is severely inhibiting my enthusiasm for writing an abc import filter :-( I'll see what Guido has to offer in his new spec when he catches up with all of it. Guido: not to rush you but I think we all need a spec, separate from any given piece of software, as soon as possible! It would give a context to all this discussion of a myriad of extensions. Dave David Webber Author of MOZART the music processor for Windows - http://www.mozart.co.uk Member of the North Cheshire Concert Band http://www.northcheshire.org.uk To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 11:04:32AM +0200, Guido Gonzato wrote: On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Bernard Hill wrote: Good grief, is anyone ever going to put all this lot together? It's not in the official standard or the draft extension. How are developers supposed to work with this mish-mash? I missed this one (a single uppercase 'Z' meaning 1 measure rest), but a lot of information is contained in my 'Typesetting Music with ABC' (http://abcplus.sourceforge.net/#Typesetting%20Music%20with%20ABC). Incidentally, it's going to become 'Making Music with ABC' because I want to cover abcMIDI and BarFly. I'll add the 'Z' thing. I had a read of this a couple of days ago. It's a fine thing. Covers a lot of the things I haven't been keeping up to date with, very interesting. (Though, the main reason I haven't been keeping too much of an eye on these is because I need my abc to be world-readable, I have to try and avoid using stuff that only works in one program ...) It would be great to see it extended to cover some of the other programs in more detail. Why is it so great? What's wrong with z8 (or z6 or whatever is appropriate)? Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
Bernard Hill wrote: Why is it so great? What's wrong with z8 (or z6 or whatever is appropriate)? Presumably because you can write | Z5 | and have the program interpret it as | z8 | z8 | z8 | z8 | z8 |, thus saving a lot of typing. If it's any consolation, while this has been discussed here I was not aware that any programs had implemented it. Don't know whether it should go into the standard yet though. Perhaps it should be mentioned as under consideration, but not mandatory for the current programs. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
John Norvell wrote: All of the tunes (hundreds) in my private collection use |!(newline) as the line terminator. Attached are a few examples. Which all look a bit odd, as if you'd formatted them carefully for source-readability and then some gremlin intervened to insert random amounts of leading whitespace in each line. How did it get there? (Open them with a text editor to see it, I assume abc2win is hiding it from you). Could you post a screenshot of how this source looks to you when you're editing it? I've never heard of using ! in the middle of a line as a terminator and think that we should deprecate that usage. Why? Lots of abc2win users do it and as I've been arguing, a lot more people ought to, whatever the software they have. If the ! is only used on the end of a line it adds no new expressive feature to the language. In this line BBe2A4 e2 :| Z ||! what does the Z mean? - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 11:51:29PM +0100, Jack Campin wrote: John Norvell wrote: I've never heard of using ! in the middle of a line as a terminator and think that we should deprecate that usage. Why? Lots of abc2win users do it and as I've been arguing, a lot more people ought to, whatever the software they have. If the ! is only used on the end of a line it adds no new expressive feature to the language. Agreed. I'm not an abc2win user, and don't currently have access to the ! linebreak thing. I'd like to, it could improve readability a lot; but if it only works at the end of a text line we might as well stick with a text CR/LF linebreak. The only value to an explicit linebreak would be if it could occur anywhere in a text line. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
Jack, It appears that the font in abc2win isn't a fixed width font (not sure if that's the default or my poor selection...). When I bring up some tunes in WordPad which uses fixed width font the left margins are out of whack. Maybe that's what you're seeing. ! in the middle of the line adds to the parser confusion that has been discussed lately. Some who don't know about |!newline are tempted to throw it out altogether which would be a shame. I think (and I realise that this opinion isn't shared by all) that notation programs should *not* staff break upon newline. Some have already brought up the compelling argument of the email daemon that indiscriminately adds newlines. There are also the well-intentioned but misguided applications that automatically clip lines off at 79 characters that further exasperates the problem. Most notation programs are pretty good about figuring out how much music can comfortably fit on a staff. I think by default we should let them do as they please unless they see a |!newline which is our way of saying break because I say so. Just an opinion. -John - Original Message - From: Jack Campin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:51 PM Subject: Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang? John Norvell wrote: All of the tunes (hundreds) in my private collection use |!(newline) as the line terminator. Attached are a few examples. Which all look a bit odd, as if you'd formatted them carefully for source-readability and then some gremlin intervened to insert random amounts of leading whitespace in each line. How did it get there? (Open them with a text editor to see it, I assume abc2win is hiding it from you). Could you post a screenshot of how this source looks to you when you're editing it? I've never heard of using ! in the middle of a line as a terminator and think that we should deprecate that usage. Why? Lots of abc2win users do it and as I've been arguing, a lot more people ought to, whatever the software they have. If the ! is only used on the end of a line it adds no new expressive feature to the language. In this line BBe2A4 e2 :| Z ||! what does the Z mean? -- --- Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
John Norvell wrote: Most notation programs are pretty good about figuring out how much music can comfortably fit on a staff. I think by default we should let them do as they please unless they see a |!newline which is our way of saying break because I say so. You could always do that in abc by adding \ to the ends of the lines. Abc2Win just reverses that logic, and the introduction of ! to force a linebreak doesn't add anything that we don't have already unless you permit its use in the middle of a line. The other suggestion made here, that we need another character to mark a place where programs should _not_ linebreak seems much less useful. I can see that one might want to specify a section of a tune where linebreaks were not permitted, but if you specify a single point, what is the program to do if a linebreak falls naturally there? Move the line break one note (or one bar) to the right or to the left? Either way the programming's gonna get messy. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jack Campin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Gg^fa! g2G2 TA4|F2 f4F2 ABcA |Gg^fa g2G2 TA4|G2 g4 G2 ABcA H:: Notice how easy it is to ignore the linebreaks when reading the source if you aren't interested. That's the point - most of the time you *will* ignore them. I regard the last three characters as optional. The two-sided repeat at the end doesn't mean anything special, and the fermata simply means that's where the tune stops (as opposed to Fine somewhere else), so :| would convey the same meaning. (The fiddler would probably have ended with a big fat three-string G minor chord). But why would you want to put :: at the end of the tune when :| is correct notation? Do you really want to see a repeat-both-ways barline at the end? I think not. And a fermata over the final bar has no meaning either. You could put it over the final note, but a fermata over a barline means a pause here and that has no meaning at the end, I suggest. Bernard Hill Braeburn Software Author of Music Publisher system Music Software written by musicians for musicians http://www.braeburn.co.uk Selkirk, Scotland To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
Bernard == Bernard Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bernard But why would you want to put :: at the end of the tune Bernard when :| is correct notation? Do you really want to see a Bernard repeat-both-ways barline at the end? I think not. In modern notation you wouldn't, but if you were trying to make a transcription look like the original, you might. Early 17th century music frequently ends with something that looks like a ::. Bernard And a fermata over the final bar has no meaning Bernard either. You could put it over the final note, but a Bernard fermata over a barline means a pause here and that has Bernard no meaning at the end, I suggest. Again, this is the modern meaning of fermata, but earlier music does use it differently. -- Laura (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
Bernard Hill writes: | | And a fermata over the final bar has no meaning either. You could put it | over the final note, but a fermata over a barline means a pause here | and that has no meaning at the end, I suggest. Actually, that's not an uncommon thing in printed music, though it is somewhat pointless. It probably comes about because the fermata symbol has long had two competing meanings, a hold/pause, and the literal Italian meaning of close, i.e., end here. In music before 1800 or so, it merely marked the end of a piece of music. The confusion probably came about because of the Romantic-era practice of slowing down and stretching all endings. I'd guess that the practice of putting a fermata over a bar line came about from the feeling that putting it on the note is wrong, because you don't end when you reach that note. You end when you finish the last note. So obviously the fermata should be after the last note, either just before the final bar line or above it. This is a bit of a silly line of reasoning, but it would explain why some people think it goes over the bar line. Anyway, I've long been impressed by how variable (and sloppy) printed music notation is. Every publisher has their own set of rules. And they are all standard. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
Guido, All of the tunes (hundreds) in my private collection use |!(newline) as the line terminator. Attached are a few examples. I've never heard of using ! in the middle of a line as a terminator and think that we should deprecate that usage. -John - Original Message - From: Guido Gonzato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ABC users [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 3:29 AM Subject: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang? Hello, I've been unable to find ABC files with the much-talked-about bang (!) for breaking lines. Could any good soul send me some examples? It's for extending abcpp to deal with this beast. Thank you, Guido =8-) -- Guido Gonzato, Ph.D. guido . gonzato at univr . it - Linux System Manager Universita' di Verona (Italy), Facolta' di Scienze MM. FF. NN. Ca' Vignal II, Strada Le Grazie 15, 37134 Verona (Italy) Tel. +39 045 8027990; Fax +39 045 8027928 --- Timeas hominem unius libri To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html KILAVILL.ABC Description: Binary data CASU.ABC Description: Binary data DERVISH.ABC Description: Binary data INION.ABC Description: Binary data
Re: [abcusers] ABC examples with bang?
I've been unable to find ABC files with the much-talked-about bang (!) for breaking lines. Could any good soul send me some examples? It's for extending abcpp to deal with this beast. Here's another one using it the way I want to. The point of reproducing the original linebreaks isn't just for historical documentation; it's a lot easier to see if your transcription is right if the line breaks are in the same places on the screen staff display as on the page. Linebreaks in mid-bar are common in this period, both in MS and print. It's an interesting tune too. As far as I know it has only been published once before in a form anything like this, and that was in the 1790s. It's a Scotticized version of a northern English hornpipe from the 17th century, Three Sharp Knives. X:1 T:Old Age and Young S:Drummond Castle/Duke of Perth MS (David Young, 1734) B:NLS Acc.7722/MS.21715 N:pseudo-type-facsimile, showing original staff linebreaks by ! signs Z:Jack Campin 2003 M:3/2 L:1/8 Q:1/2=120 K:G Minor G4 B3 c d2(cB)|A2 F4cB A2 (G^F)|G4B3 c d2(cB)|A2 G2g2 G2 TA2(G^F)::! DG^FA G2G,2 B,4 |D2 F4B2 TA2 (G^F)|DG^FA G2G,2 B,4 |D2 G4 B2 TA2(G^F)::\ GABG ABcA! BcdB |A2 F2c2 F2 ABcA |GABG ABcA BcdB |A2 G2g2 G2 ABcA ::\ Gg^fa! g2G2 TA4|F2 f4F2 ABcA |Gg^fa g2G2 TA4|G2 g4 G2 ABcA H:: Notice how easy it is to ignore the linebreaks when reading the source if you aren't interested. That's the point - most of the time you *will* ignore them. I regard the last three characters as optional. The two-sided repeat at the end doesn't mean anything special, and the fermata simply means that's where the tune stops (as opposed to Fine somewhere else), so :| would convey the same meaning. (The fiddler would probably have ended with a big fat three-string G minor chord). - Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack * food intolerance data recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM Embro, Embro. -- off-list mail to j-c rather than abc at this site, please -- To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
