Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[TJ Trout]

It's related to your hold timer and your convergence time. Lower to 14/45s
and it will be much faster.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 5:31 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
wrote:

> Trey,
>
> That is the main question.  If it takes the rest of the Internet 10 mins
> to figure out my BGP dropped, does it matter if I spend $ of some super
> fast router that can build the tables in 30s?
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Communications
> www.Myakka.com
>
> --
>
> Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 5:55:30 PM, you wrote:
>
> TS> You can prevent this by having a backup default route. The other thing
> is if you are n a physical interface or aggregated interface with a vlan on
> your upstream's router. If its physical it should stop routing traffic when
> it sees the interface down. If not it may keep trying to send traffic down
> that interface. BFD can help with this. It will Also depend on how your
> provider handles the traffic when the  the session with you terminates. If
> it will forward it on to your other providers or not. If your alternate
> providers are connected closely to you it shouldn't take to long, but it
> can take 10-20min for the loss of the peer to propagate across all global
> routing tables.
>
> TS> On 4/19/23 9:47 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:
> >> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different
> providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and
> traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.
> >>
> >> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet
> while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up
> the process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?
> Will new faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is
> 30s and hold is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?
> >>
> >> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best
> conditions?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>   Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
> >>
> >> Myakka Communications
> >> www.Myakka.com
> >>
> >>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Trey,

That is the main question.  If it takes the rest of the Internet 10 mins to 
figure out my BGP dropped, does it matter if I spend $ of some super fast 
router that can build the tables in 30s?

--
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 5:55:30 PM, you wrote:

TS> You can prevent this by having a backup default route. The other thing is 
if you are n a physical interface or aggregated interface with a vlan on your 
upstream's router. If its physical it should stop routing traffic when it sees 
the interface down. If not it may keep trying to send traffic down that 
interface. BFD can help with this. It will Also depend on how your provider 
handles the traffic when the  the session with you terminates. If it will 
forward it on to your other providers or not. If your alternate providers are 
connected closely to you it shouldn't take to long, but it can take 10-20min 
for the loss of the peer to propagate across all global routing tables.

TS> On 4/19/23 9:47 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:
>> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different 
>> providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and 
>> traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.
>>
>> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet while 
>> this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the 
>> process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new 
>> faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and 
>> hold is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?
>>
>> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best conditions?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>   Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>>
>> Myakka Communications
>> www.Myakka.com
>>
>>


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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Only took 50 years to become reality.



From: Robert 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 5:45 PM
To: Chuck McCown via AF 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

One of my childhood favorites, because   Susan Clark...

Colossus: The Forbin Project




On 4/19/23 3:18 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

  I remember seeing that at the drive in.  Double feature with Andromeda Strain.

  “This is the voice of Colossus”  AI hooked with an AI in Russia...

  From: Robert 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 3:55 PM
  To: af@af.afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

  How about the original Colossus?


  On 4/19/23 1:55 PM, James Howard wrote:

well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year





From: "Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Sent: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

My arduino nano can do it in a week.



From: Steven Kenney via AF
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Cc: Steven Kenney
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

My raspberry pi does it in under an hour. 

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman  
wrote:
  I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3 minutes...that's been 
a while.

  I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't think it's 
10-15 though.

  On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
 wrote:
Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables. 

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was supporting it. 
 Never established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7.  But 
before I go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3 brand new 
CCR2116-12G-4S+ running v7. 


--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time 
is kinda long..  


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium 
ePMP Certified
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka 
Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different 
providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and 
traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet 
while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the 
process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new 
faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and hold 
is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD? 

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best 
conditions? 

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB> 
https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5


DB> --
DB> AF mailing list
DB> AF@af.afmug.com
DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY This communication, including any attachments, is 
intended only for the use of the addressee(s) to this email and is 
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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Robert]

One of my childhood favorites, because Susan Clark...

Colossus: The Forbin Project



On 4/19/23 3:18 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I remember seeing that at the drive in.  Double feature with Andromeda 
Strain.

“This is the voice of Colossus” AI hooked with an AI in Russia...
*From:* Robert
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 3:55 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
How about the original Colossus?

On 4/19/23 1:55 PM, James Howard wrote:

well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year

*From*: "Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Sent*: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
*To*: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
*Cc*: ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject*: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
My arduino nano can do it in a week.
*From:* Steven Kenney via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Steven Kenney
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:


I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3
minutes...that's been a while.

I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't
think it's 10-15 though.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies
 wrote:

Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was
supporting it.  Never established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7. 
But before I go that route, what should I expect if I do get
3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ running v7.


--
Best regards,
Mark    mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com 

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your
hold time is kinda long..


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
Cambium ePMP Certified
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:
https://cloud.linktechs.net
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com


DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark -
Myakka Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3
different providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP
will do it's magic and traffic will start flowing though the
surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of
unstable Internet while this is happening.  Is this normal?
If not, what can I do to speed up the process?  Is it a
function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new
faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers? Keep-Alive
is 30s and hold is at 90s. Should I investigate BFD?

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work
under best conditions?

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB>

https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5




DB> --
DB> AF mailing list
DB> AF@af.afmug.com
DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



--
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY This communication, including any 
attachments, is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) to this 
email and is confidential. If 

Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[TJ Trout]

Lower timers to 15s/45s and see if you can enable BFD, I think this has to
be coordinated with the upstreams? maybe someone can confirm

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:20 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I remember seeing that at the drive in.  Double feature with Andromeda
> Strain.
>
> “This is the voice of Colossus”  AI hooked with an AI in Russia...
>
> *From:* Robert
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 3:55 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
>
> How about the original Colossus?
>
> On 4/19/23 1:55 PM, James Howard wrote:
>
> well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year
>
>
> --
> *From*: "Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
> *Sent*: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
> *To*: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
> *Cc*: ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Subject*: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
>
> My arduino nano can do it in a week.
>
>
>
> *From:* Steven Kenney via AF
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Cc:* Steven Kenney
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
>
> My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
> I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3 minutes...that's been a
> while.
>
> I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't think it's
> 10-15 though.
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies <
> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>
> Dennis,
>
> Using mikrotik routers.
>
> Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9
>
> One CCR1072 v6.47.9
>
> Yes taking full tables.
>
> Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was supporting it.
> Never established a session.
>
> Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7.  But before I
> go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+
> running v7.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Communications
> www.Myakka.com
>
> --
>
> Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:
>
> DB> Really depends on a lot of things.
>
> DB> 1.What router are you using?
> DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
> DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
> DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?
>
> DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time is
> kinda long..
>
>
> DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP
> Certified
> DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
> DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
> DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net
> DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com
>
> DB> -Original Message-
> DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
> Technologies
> DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
> DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
> DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question
>
> DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different
> providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and
> traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.
>
> DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet
> while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up
> the process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?
> Will new faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is
> 30s and hold is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?
>
> DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best
> conditions?
>
> DB> Thanks,
> DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> DB> Myakka Communications
> DB>
> https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5
>
>
> DB> --
> DB> AF mailing list
> DB> AF@af.afmug.com
> DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY This communication, including any attachments,
> is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) to this email and is
> confidential. If you are not an intended recipient or acting on behalf of
> an intended recipient, any review, disclosure, conversion to hard copy,
> dissemination, reproduction or other use of any part of this communication
> is strictly prohibited. If you receive this communication in error or
> without authorization, please notify the originator immediately and remove
> it from your system.
>
>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
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> 

Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I remember seeing that at the drive in.  Double feature with Andromeda Strain.

“This is the voice of Colossus”  AI hooked with an AI in Russia...

From: Robert 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 3:55 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

How about the original Colossus?


On 4/19/23 1:55 PM, James Howard wrote:

  well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year



--

  From: "Chuck McCown via AF" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
  Sent: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
  To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com
  Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

  My arduino nano can do it in a week.



  From: Steven Kenney via AF
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
  Cc: Steven Kenney
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

  My raspberry pi does it in under an hour. 

  On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman  
wrote:
I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3 minutes...that's been a 
while.

I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't think it's 
10-15 though.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
 wrote:
  Dennis,

  Using mikrotik routers.

  Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

  One CCR1072 v6.47.9

  Yes taking full tables. 

  Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was supporting it.  
Never established a session.

  Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7.  But before 
I go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ 
running v7. 


  --
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Communications
  www.Myakka.com

  --

  Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

  DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

  DB> 1.What router are you using?
  DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
  DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
  DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

  DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time is 
kinda long..  


  DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
  DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium 
ePMP Certified
  DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
  DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
  DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
  DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net
  DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com

  DB> -Original Message-
  DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka 
Technologies
  DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
  DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
  DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

  DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different 
providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and 
traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.

  DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet 
while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the 
process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new 
faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and hold 
is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD? 

  DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best 
conditions? 

  DB> Thanks,
  DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

  DB> Myakka Communications
  DB> 
https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5


  DB> --
  DB> AF mailing list
  DB> AF@af.afmug.com
  DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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  NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY This communication, including any attachments, is 
intended only for the use of the addressee(s) to this email and is 
confidential. If you are not an intended recipient or acting on behalf of an 
intended recipient, any review, disclosure, conversion to hard copy, 
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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Robert]

How about the original Colossus?

On 4/19/23 1:55 PM, James Howard wrote:

well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year



*From*: "Chuck McCown via AF" 
*Sent*: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
*To*: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
*Cc*: ch...@go-mtc.com
*Subject*: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

My arduino nano can do it in a week.
*From:* Steven Kenney via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Cc:* Steven Kenney
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question
My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman 
 wrote:


I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3
minutes...that's been a while.

I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't
think it's 10-15 though.
On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies
 wrote:

Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was
supporting it.  Never established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7. 
But before I go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3
brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ running v7.


--
Best regards,
Mark    mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com 

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your
hold time is kinda long..


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage,
Cambium ePMP Certified
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups: https://cloud.linktechs.net
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com


DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark -
Myakka Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC. We peer with 3
different providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP
will do it's magic and traffic will start flowing though the
surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable
Internet while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not,
what can I do to speed up the process?  Is it a function of my
routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new faster routers
help?  Is it a function of timers? Keep-Alive is 30s and hold
is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work
under best conditions?

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB>

https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5




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DB> AF mailing list
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DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Trey Scarborough]

You can prevent this by having a backup default route. The other thing 
is if you are n a physical interface or aggregated interface with a vlan 
on your upstream's router. If its physical it should stop routing 
traffic when it sees the interface down. If not it may keep trying to 
send traffic down that interface. BFD can help with this. It will Also 
depend on how your provider handles the traffic when the  the session 
with you terminates. If it will forward it on to your other providers or 
not. If your alternate providers are connected closely to you it 
shouldn't take to long, but it can take 10-20min for the loss of the 
peer to propagate across all global routing tables.


On 4/19/23 9:47 AM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different providers 
on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and traffic will 
start flowing though the surviving circuit.

However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet while this 
is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the process?  
Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new faster 
routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and hold is at 
90s.  Should I investigate BFD?

How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best conditions?

Thanks,
  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com




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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[James Howard]

well my Atari 2600 can't do it in a year


From: "Chuck McCown via AF" 
Sent: 4/19/23 1:06 PM
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

My arduino nano can do it in a week.

From: Steven Kenney via AF
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Cc: Steven Kenney
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman  
wrote:
I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3 minutes...that's been a 
while.

I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't think it's 10-15 
though.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies  
wrote:
Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was supporting it.  Never 
established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7.  But before I go 
that route, what should I expect if I do get 3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ 
running v7.

--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time is kinda 
long..

DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
Certified
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different 
providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and 
traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet while 
this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the 
process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new 
faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and hold 
is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best conditions?

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB> 
https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5

DB> --
DB> AF mailing list
DB> AF@af.afmug.com
DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Chuck McCown via AF]

As I recall, it passes 1650 so you can put it on the end of a PON and shoot 
through splitters.  

It does not allow any other wavelenth out that could jam the OLT and  cause the 
PON to go down.  

Some OTDRs have these filters built in when you are testing on 1650.  

Also, the filter keeps the pon outbound transmit light from messing with the 
OTDR receiver.  

I think OTDR inputs are wide band so they will see the OLT signal along with 
the reflected test signal without the filter.  



From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 2:03 PM
To: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

Does it just need to filter 1310/1490 so the OTDR doesn't see it and then you 
can shoot 1550?

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:58 PM  wrote:

  Just a lump in a fiber jumper with connectors on each end.  Would take some 
digging to find it.  



  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:40 PM
  To: ch...@go-mtc.com 
  Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

  Got a picture at least?

  On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:35 PM  wrote:

I tried to find a link, we have one, but I don’t know where I got it.
Perhaps a custom fiber filter from fs.com



From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

That's clever!  Nice tip, thanks.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:15 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  There is a band pass filter you can add for shooting over live fiber.  



  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:27 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

  On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't 
think an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.

  On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM  wrote:

Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it 
would be easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the overload 
threshold of the transceiver.  

“Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I 
would assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is from Tx 
and half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that all seems 
plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this number was on 
the spec sheet.



The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away. 
 A ZR is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong to 
nuke it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re lying to 
me.  So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this crew tells 
me in the future.  With same guys we had a link we were troubleshooting 
suddenly come up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.  So I already think 
they might be compulsive bullshitters.





From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



These guys think so:

https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV



Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com



From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there 
a rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?



I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a 
ZR optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently, 
and the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the link 
is way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.



I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.




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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Josh Luthman]

Does it just need to filter 1310/1490 so the OTDR doesn't see it and then
you can shoot 1550?

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:58 PM  wrote:

> Just a lump in a fiber jumper with connectors on each end.  Would take
> some digging to find it.
>
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:40 PM
> *To:* ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Cc:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>
> Got a picture at least?
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:35 PM  wrote:
>
>> I tried to find a link, we have one, but I don’t know where I got it.
>> Perhaps a custom fiber filter from fs.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:23 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>>
>> That's clever!  Nice tip, thanks.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:15 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There is a band pass filter you can add for shooting over live fiber.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:27 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>>>
>>> On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't
>>> think an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM  wrote:
>>>
 Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it
 would be easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the
 overload threshold of the transceiver.

 “Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I
 would assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is
 from Tx and half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that
 all seems plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this
 number was on the spec sheet.



 The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft
 away.  A ZR is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn
 strong to nuke it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe
 they’re lying to me.  So a second part of the equation is whether I trust
 what this crew tells me in the future.  With same guys we had a link we
 were troubleshooting suddenly come up 20 minutes after they were “hands
 off”.  So I already think they might be compulsive bullshitters.





 *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
 *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
 *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



 These guys think so:

 https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV



 Best Regards,
 Chuck McCown

 McCown Technology Corporation
 8401 N Commerce Dr
 Lake Point, Utah 84074
 801-250-9503 Office
 435-830-4306 Cell
 www.mccowntech.com
 www.microtrench.pro
 www.terabitnetworks.com



 *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com

 *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM

 *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

 *Subject:* [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



 Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there
 a rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?



 I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a
 ZR optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing
 recently, and the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded
 and the link is way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.



 I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.
 --

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 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
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>>> --
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
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>>> AF mailing list
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>>>
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Just a lump in a fiber jumper with connectors on each end.  Would take some 
digging to find it.  



From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:40 PM
To: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

Got a picture at least?

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:35 PM  wrote:

  I tried to find a link, we have one, but I don’t know where I got it.
  Perhaps a custom fiber filter from fs.com



  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:23 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

  That's clever!  Nice tip, thanks.

  On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:15 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

There is a band pass filter you can add for shooting over live fiber.  



From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't 
think an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM  wrote:

  Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it 
would be easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the overload 
threshold of the transceiver.  

  “Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I 
would assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is from Tx 
and half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that all seems 
plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this number was on 
the spec sheet.



  The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.  
A ZR is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong to 
nuke it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re lying to 
me.  So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this crew tells 
me in the future.  With same guys we had a link we were troubleshooting 
suddenly come up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.  So I already think 
they might be compulsive bullshitters.





  From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



  These guys think so:

  https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV



  Best Regards,
  Chuck McCown

  McCown Technology Corporation 
  8401 N Commerce Dr
  Lake Point, Utah 84074
  801-250-9503 Office
  435-830-4306 Cell
  www.mccowntech.com
  www.microtrench.pro
  www.terabitnetworks.com



  From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM

  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

  Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



  Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a 
rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?



  I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR 
optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently, and 
the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the link is 
way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.



  I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.


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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Josh Luthman]

Got a picture at least?

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:35 PM  wrote:

> I tried to find a link, we have one, but I don’t know where I got it.
> Perhaps a custom fiber filter from fs.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:23 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>
> That's clever!  Nice tip, thanks.
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:15 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> There is a band pass filter you can add for shooting over live fiber.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:27 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>>
>> On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't
>> think an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it
>>> would be easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the
>>> overload threshold of the transceiver.
>>>
>>> “Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I
>>> would assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is
>>> from Tx and half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that
>>> all seems plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this
>>> number was on the spec sheet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.
>>> A ZR is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong
>>> to nuke it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re
>>> lying to me.  So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this
>>> crew tells me in the future.  With same guys we had a link we were
>>> troubleshooting suddenly come up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.
>>> So I already think they might be compulsive bullshitters.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>>> *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> These guys think so:
>>>
>>> https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Chuck McCown
>>>
>>> McCown Technology Corporation
>>> 8401 N Commerce Dr
>>> Lake Point, Utah 84074
>>> 801-250-9503 Office
>>> 435-830-4306 Cell
>>> www.mccowntech.com
>>> www.microtrench.pro
>>> www.terabitnetworks.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM
>>>
>>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>>>
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there
>>> a rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR
>>> optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently,
>>> and the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the
>>> link is way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.
>>> --
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
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>>>
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>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I tried to find a link, we have one, but I don’t know where I got it.
Perhaps a custom fiber filter from fs.com



From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:23 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

That's clever!  Nice tip, thanks.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:15 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  There is a band pass filter you can add for shooting over live fiber.  



  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:27 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

  On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't 
think an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.

  On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM  wrote:

Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it 
would be easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the overload 
threshold of the transceiver.  

“Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I 
would assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is from Tx 
and half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that all seems 
plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this number was on 
the spec sheet.



The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.  A 
ZR is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong to 
nuke it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re lying to 
me.  So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this crew tells 
me in the future.  With same guys we had a link we were troubleshooting 
suddenly come up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.  So I already think 
they might be compulsive bullshitters.





From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



These guys think so:

https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV



Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com



From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a 
rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?



I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR 
optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently, and 
the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the link is 
way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.



I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.




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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Josh Luthman]

That's clever!  Nice tip, thanks.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 3:15 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> There is a band pass filter you can add for shooting over live fiber.
>
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:27 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>
> On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't
> think an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM  wrote:
>
>> Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it
>> would be easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the
>> overload threshold of the transceiver.
>>
>> “Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I
>> would assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is
>> from Tx and half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that
>> all seems plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this
>> number was on the spec sheet.
>>
>>
>>
>> The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.
>> A ZR is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong
>> to nuke it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re
>> lying to me.  So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this
>> crew tells me in the future.  With same guys we had a link we were
>> troubleshooting suddenly come up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.
>> So I already think they might be compulsive bullshitters.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>>
>>
>>
>> These guys think so:
>>
>> https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Chuck McCown
>>
>> McCown Technology Corporation
>> 8401 N Commerce Dr
>> Lake Point, Utah 84074
>> 801-250-9503 Office
>> 435-830-4306 Cell
>> www.mccowntech.com
>> www.microtrench.pro
>> www.terabitnetworks.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
>>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM
>>
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>>
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a
>> rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR
>> optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently,
>> and the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the
>> link is way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.
>> --
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>> AF@af.afmug.com
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>>
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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Chuck McCown via AF]

There is a band pass filter you can add for shooting over live fiber.  



From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't think 
an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM  wrote:

  Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it would 
be easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the overload 
threshold of the transceiver.  

  “Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I would 
assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is from Tx and 
half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that all seems 
plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this number was on 
the spec sheet.



  The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.  A ZR 
is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong to nuke 
it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re lying to me.  
So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this crew tells me in 
the future.  With same guys we had a link we were troubleshooting suddenly come 
up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.  So I already think they might be 
compulsive bullshitters.





  From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



  These guys think so:

  https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV



  Best Regards,
  Chuck McCown

  McCown Technology Corporation 
  8401 N Commerce Dr
  Lake Point, Utah 84074
  801-250-9503 Office
  435-830-4306 Cell
  www.mccowntech.com
  www.microtrench.pro
  www.terabitnetworks.com



  From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM

  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

  Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power



  Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a 
rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?



  I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR 
optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently, and 
the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the link is 
way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.



  I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.


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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Josh Luthman]

It's on the $300 China one, $1000 China one, and the $4000+ VeEx/Exfo...I
have to assume it's on all of them.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 2:25 PM  wrote:

> I know there’s a safety feature like that on some OTDR’s.  I don’t know
> what this bunch was using.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:28 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>
>
>
> On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't
> think an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM  wrote:
>
> Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it
> would be easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the
> overload threshold of the transceiver.
>
> “Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I
> would assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is
> from Tx and half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that
> all seems plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this
> number was on the spec sheet.
>
>
>
> The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.  A
> ZR is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong to
> nuke it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re
> lying to me.  So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this
> crew tells me in the future.  With same guys we had a link we were
> troubleshooting suddenly come up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.
> So I already think they might be compulsive bullshitters.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>
>
>
> These guys think so:
>
> https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Chuck McCown
>
> McCown Technology Corporation
> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> 801-250-9503 Office
> 435-830-4306 Cell
> www.mccowntech.com
> www.microtrench.pro
> www.terabitnetworks.com
>
>
>
> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM
>
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>
>
>
> Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a
> rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?
>
>
>
> I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR
> optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently,
> and the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the
> link is way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.
>
>
>
> I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[dmmoffett]

I know there’s a safety feature like that on some OTDR’s.  I don’t know what 
this bunch was using.

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:28 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

 

On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't think 
an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.

 

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it would be 
easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the overload threshold 
of the transceiver.  

“Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I would 
assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is from Tx and 
half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that all seems 
plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this number was on 
the spec sheet.

 

The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.  A ZR 
is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong to nuke 
it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re lying to me.  
So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this crew tells me in 
the future.  With same guys we had a link we were troubleshooting suddenly come 
up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.  So I already think they might be 
compulsive bullshitters.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

 

These guys think so:

  
https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
  www.mccowntech.com
  www.microtrench.pro
  www.terabitnetworks.com

 

From:   dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

 

Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a rule 
of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?

 

I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR optic 
with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently, and the 
manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the link is way 
too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.

 

I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.


  _  


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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

My arduino nano can do it in a week.



From: Steven Kenney via AF 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Steven Kenney 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.  

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman  
wrote:

  I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3 minutes...that's been a 
while.

  I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't think it's 
10-15 though.

  On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies  
wrote:

Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.  

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was supporting it.  
Never established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7.  But before I 
go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ 
running v7.  


--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time is 
kinda long..   


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
Certified 
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition" 
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services 
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net 
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com 

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka 
Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different 
providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and 
traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet 
while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the 
process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new 
faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and hold 
is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?  

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best 
conditions?  

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB> 
https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5


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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Steven Kenney via AF]

My raspberry pi does it in under an hour.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:26 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3 minutes...that's been a
> while.
>
> I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't think it's
> 10-15 though.
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies <
> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>
>> Dennis,
>>
>> Using mikrotik routers.
>>
>> Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9
>>
>> One CCR1072 v6.47.9
>>
>> Yes taking full tables.
>>
>> Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was supporting it.
>> Never established a session.
>>
>> Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7.  But before
>> I go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3 brand new
>> CCR2116-12G-4S+ running v7.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>>  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>>
>> Myakka Communications
>> www.Myakka.com
>>
>> --
>>
>> Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:
>>
>> DB> Really depends on a lot of things.
>>
>> DB> 1.What router are you using?
>> DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
>> DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
>> DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?
>>
>> DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time is
>> kinda long..
>>
>>
>> DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
>> DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium
>> ePMP Certified
>> DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
>> DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
>> DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
>> DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net
>> DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com
>>
>> DB> -Original Message-
>> DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
>> Technologies
>> DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
>> DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question
>>
>> DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different
>> providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and
>> traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.
>>
>> DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet
>> while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up
>> the process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?
>> Will new faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is
>> 30s and hold is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?
>>
>> DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best
>> conditions?
>>
>> DB> Thanks,
>> DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>>
>> DB> Myakka Communications
>> DB>
>> https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5
>>
>>
>> DB> --
>> DB> AF mailing list
>> DB> AF@af.afmug.com
>> DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>

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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Chuck McCown via AF]

>From what I have read, it is more the pulse duration than output power that is 
>the hazard.  Long pulses for ultra long distance produce more accumulated 
>power in the SFP photodiode or whatever the element is that receives the 
>light.  Makes sense.

I was totally unaware that a VFD could damage anything but perhaps your eye.  



From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:02 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it would be 
easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the overload threshold 
of the transceiver.  

“Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I would 
assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is from Tx and 
half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that all seems 
plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this number was on 
the spec sheet.

 

The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.  A ZR 
is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong to nuke 
it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re lying to me.  
So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this crew tells me in 
the future.  With same guys we had a link we were troubleshooting suddenly come 
up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.  So I already think they might be 
compulsive bullshitters.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

 

These guys think so:

https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 

Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

 

Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a rule 
of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?

 

I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR optic 
with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently, and the 
manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the link is way 
too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.

 

I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.




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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Josh Luthman]

On Calix optics they say it's OK if the OTDR hits it with 1650.  I don't
think an OTDR will shoot if it sees 1310/1490.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 1:03 PM  wrote:

> Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it
> would be easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the
> overload threshold of the transceiver.
>
> “Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I
> would assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is
> from Tx and half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that
> all seems plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this
> number was on the spec sheet.
>
>
>
> The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.  A
> ZR is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong to
> nuke it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re
> lying to me.  So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this
> crew tells me in the future.  With same guys we had a link we were
> troubleshooting suddenly come up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.
> So I already think they might be compulsive bullshitters.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>
>
>
> These guys think so:
>
> https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Chuck McCown
>
> McCown Technology Corporation
> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> 801-250-9503 Office
> 435-830-4306 Cell
> www.mccowntech.com
> www.microtrench.pro
> www.terabitnetworks.com
>
>
>
> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM
>
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power
>
>
>
> Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a
> rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?
>
>
>
> I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR
> optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently,
> and the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the
> link is way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.
>
>
>
> I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.
> --
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Josh Luthman]

I want to say my old x86 would do full tables in 3 minutes...that's been a
while.

I think the CCR1009/1036/1072 is a couple of minutes, I don't think it's
10-15 though.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:20 AM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
wrote:

> Dennis,
>
> Using mikrotik routers.
>
> Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9
>
> One CCR1072 v6.47.9
>
> Yes taking full tables.
>
> Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was supporting it.
> Never established a session.
>
> Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7.  But before I
> go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+
> running v7.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> Myakka Communications
> www.Myakka.com
>
> --
>
> Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:
>
> DB> Really depends on a lot of things.
>
> DB> 1.What router are you using?
> DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
> DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
> DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?
>
> DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time is
> kinda long..
>
>
> DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP
> Certified
> DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
> DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
> DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net
> DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net
> DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com
>
> DB> -Original Message-
> DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
> Technologies
> DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
> DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
> DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question
>
> DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different
> providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and
> traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.
>
> DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet
> while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up
> the process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?
> Will new faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is
> 30s and hold is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?
>
> DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best
> conditions?
>
> DB> Thanks,
> DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
> DB> Myakka Communications
> DB>
> https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5
>
>
> DB> --
> DB> AF mailing list
> DB> AF@af.afmug.com
> DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[dmmoffett]

Oh I 100% believe they could do it.  If I knew tx power of the OTDR it would be 
easy to estimate how close they’d have to be to exceed the overload threshold 
of the transceiver.  

“Dynamic Range” has to be a diff between Tx and sensitivity …..or so I would 
assume.  If it is then I could guess that maybe half the range is from Tx and 
half from Rx?  So a 50dB range might mean +25Tx?  I mean that all seems 
plausible to me, but it’s a lot of assuming.  I just wish this number was on 
the spec sheet.

 

The alleged location of the case they were in was over 200,000 ft away.  A ZR 
is a bit sensitive, but that OTDR would have to be pretty damn strong to nuke 
it from that distance.  Maybe it is that strong, or maybe they’re lying to me.  
So a second part of the equation is whether I trust what this crew tells me in 
the future.  With same guys we had a link we were troubleshooting suddenly come 
up 20 minutes after they were “hands off”.  So I already think they might be 
compulsive bullshitters.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:57 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

 

These guys think so:

https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com  
www.microtrench.pro  
www.terabitnetworks.com  

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com   

Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

 

Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a rule 
of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?

 

I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR optic 
with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently, and the 
manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the link is way 
too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.

 

I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.

  _  

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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Chuck McCown via AF]

This says that high power VFLs can burn them out too.  


From: Chuck McCown via AF 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:56 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

These guys think so:
https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a rule 
of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?

 

I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR optic 
with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently, and the 
manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the link is way 
too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.

 

I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.




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Re: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[Chuck McCown via AF]

These guys think so:
https://content.jwplatform.com/previews/IQitGvAV

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:23 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a rule 
of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?

 

I’m trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR optic 
with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently, and the 
manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the link is way 
too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.

 

I’m not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.




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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[dmmoffett]

We have a Juniper MX10008 which is supposed to crunch a full table in about
30 seconds, but that's a half million dollar router.

If you're doing it on a general purpose CPU I think 10-15 minutes doesn't
sound weird.

Something I've been meaning to try in the lab was having a static default
route with distance 255.  The hope would be traffic falls back to that when
we haven't received a better route yet.  Maybe I'd have two or three of
those default routes with a qualified-next-hop so they're only active if the
upstream connection is up.  I'd adjust Juniper's protocol preference level
so it'll prefer a BGP route if one exists and otherwise use the static
default route.  The hope would be while I'm waiting 30 seconds to receive
routes that traffic still moves anyway.  I haven't actually tried this
experiment yet, but I think in principal it should work.  There might be a
Mikrotik equivalent way.

-Adam



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 11:19 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.  

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was supporting it.
Never established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7.  But before I
go that route, what should I expect if I do get 3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+
running v7.  


--
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time is
kinda long..   


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, 
DB> MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP Certified Author 
DB> of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition"
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net Need to 
DB> Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net Create 
DB> Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka 
DB> Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different
providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and
traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet
while this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up
the process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will
new faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and
hold is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?  

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best
conditions?  

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB> https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=ww
DB> w.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f
DB> 437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970
DB> 458d5


DB> --
DB> AF mailing list
DB> AF@af.afmug.com
DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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[AFMUG] OTDR transmit power

[dmmoffett]

Does anyone know how strong the pulses from an OTDR might be?  Is there a
rule of thumb to guess that based on the dynamic range?

 

I'm trying to determine if a dark fiber provider might have blasted a ZR
optic with an OTDR at close range.  We know they were out testing recently,
and the manufacturer is saying receiver may have been overloaded and the
link is way too long for the far end transceiver to have done it.

 

I'm not out to blame anybody, this is just an educational exercise.

-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Dennis,

Using mikrotik routers.

Two MaxxWave x86 i5 8 core 10 years old v6.47.9

One CCR1072 v6.47.9

Yes taking full tables.  

Tried BFD  while back.  Didn't seem that my upstream was supporting it.  Never 
established a session.

Thinking I may need to start looking at new hardware and v7.  But before I go 
that route, what should I expect if I do get 3 brand new CCR2116-12G-4S+ 
running v7.  


--
Best regards,
 Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com

--

Wednesday, April 19, 2023, 11:08:45 AM, you wrote:

DB> Really depends on a lot of things.

DB> 1.What router are you using?
DB> 2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
DB> 3. Are you not using BFD ?
DB> 4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

DB> V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time is kinda 
long..   


DB> Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
DB> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
Certified 
DB> Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition" 
DB> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services 
DB> Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 
DB> Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net 
DB> Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com 

DB> -Original Message-
DB> From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
DB> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
DB> To: af@af.afmug.com
DB> Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

DB> We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different 
providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and 
traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.

DB> However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet while 
this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the 
process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new 
faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and hold 
is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?  

DB> How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best 
conditions?  

DB> Thanks,
DB>  Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

DB> Myakka Communications
DB> 
https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5


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DB> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[dmmoffett]

Are you receiving full routes, partial, or default only?


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 10:48 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different
providers on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and
traffic will start flowing though the surviving circuit.

However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet while
this is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the
process?  Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new
faster routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and
hold is at 90s.  Should I investigate BFD?  

How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best conditions?


Thanks,
 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com


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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Dennis Burgess]

Really depends on a lot of things.

1.What router are you using?
2. Are you taking full tables from all of your upstreams?
3. Are you not using BFD ?
4.  What version of RouterOS are you using?

V7 will be faster, 2216 will be faster than a 1036, your hold time is kinda 
long..   


Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
Certified 
Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition" 
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services 
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 
Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net 
Create Wireless Coverage's with www.towercoverage.com 

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:48 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different providers 
on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and traffic will 
start flowing though the surviving circuit.

However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet while this 
is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the process?  
Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new faster 
routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and hold is at 
90s.  Should I investigate BFD?  

How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best conditions?  

Thanks,
 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
https://imsva91-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=www.Myakka.com=08E7599C-F9B1-CC05-BF9C-94CA5B14AB1B=079c058f437b7c6303d36c6513e5e8848d0c5ac4-1a5796e3447e2e1707012b957aa10dd6970458d5


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Re: [AFMUG] BGP Question

[Christopher Tyler]

What routers are you using?



Christopher Tyler
Senior Network Engineer
Total Highspeed Internet Solutions
+1 417-851-1107 ext 9002
ch...@totalhighspeed.net
[cid:d5754205-542b-4ad8-9fa2-09231e802d33]
   Book time to meet with 
me

This institution is an equal opportunity provider and employer. Esta 
institución es un proveedor de servicios con igualdad de oportunidades.

From: AF  on behalf of Mark - Myakka Technologies 

Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 9:47 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] BGP Question

We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different providers 
on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and traffic will 
start flowing though the surviving circuit.

However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet while this 
is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the process?  
Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new faster 
routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and hold is at 
90s.  Should I investigate BFD?

How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best conditions?

Thanks,
 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com


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[AFMUG] BGP Question

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

We have two circuits coming into our NOC.  We peer with 3 different providers 
on each circuit.  If a circuit fails, BGP will do it's magic and traffic will 
start flowing though the surviving circuit.

However, we seemed to get about 5 - 10 minutes of unstable Internet while this 
is happening.  Is this normal? If not, what can I do to speed up the process?  
Is it a function of my routers having to rebuild routes?  Will new faster 
routers help?  Is it a function of timers?  Keep-Alive is 30s and hold is at 
90s.  Should I investigate BFD?  

How fast could I expect to get this fail-over to work under best conditions?  

Thanks,
 Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Communications
www.Myakka.com


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