Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[George Skorup]

One 450m = two 450i in cost (roughly), but delivers 3-4x the throughput 
based on real-world results. Yes, it *can* talk to 7 SMs in the same 
frame. But even Cambium said 3-4 is realistic. Maybe 5 in the right 
conditions. And you don't have to visit a single customer site. And 
instead of pointing 3x 20MHz channels the same direction, you need only 
one. Plus there's 30 and 40MHz support. Like Sean said, just another 
tool in the toolbox.


On 2/13/2018 1:26 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:

I was saying one direction IS 90 degrees in the "standard tower plan" :)

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:17 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

how else would you suggest building a tower?!?!

friends don't let friends use omni's ;-)



On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:15 AM, Josh Reynolds 
wrote:

If you do the standard 4xAP so you can do 2 channels and back to back
frequency reuse, 90 degrees is one direction...

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

actually you don't want them all in one direction, you want the clients
evenly spread in a 90* swath so that you can take advantage of the
MU-MIMO.

we have clients connected out to 8 miles running in 6x (which is 64qam).

it actually saves on tower rent because to do the same thing with
regular
450 APs (which we were prior to deploying the 450m's) you would need 3
APs
each using 20Mhz so 60Mhz total of spectrum used.

win, win, win.

but i also wouldn't install them at every tower.

2 cents

-sean

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:58 PM, Josh Reynolds 
wrote:

I'm just saying it doesn't make sense, unless all your clients are
short range, in all one direction, and tower rent is costly.

It's a niche of a niche.

(I'm not saying it is a bad product, I'm not saying that at all, I'm
just saying it's not the second coming like people make it out to be.)

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:55 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

Then by all means don’t deploy any 450m’s josh.  Geeze dude take a
chill
pill.

I’m just stating what I have on my network in a real world
environment,
earning me real world dollars and conserving much needed spectrum.

It’s not the right tool for every situation, BUT under the right
conditions
the 450m delivers.

Cheers bud

-sean



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM Josh Reynolds 
wrote:

Further note: You can see I did those calcs at 1024QAM, so reduce
that
down the 256QAM for closer to real numbers :)

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Josh Reynolds

wrote:

Let's break this down a bit.

Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi anymore?
*shakes head*

Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread apart
(physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into almost the same
timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one client that ends up in
the
same window as other clients reduces the overall capacity of the
AP
(like in many other situations). It can, in some situations, lead
to
cumulative transfer windows where overall throughput ends up
getting
reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up taking
a
hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of MU-MIMO, not
even taking into account "massive" systems like 14x14 that end up
costing quite a bit in overall power budget due to the number of
elements, further meaning that your range is severely limited in a
system like this... so only decent in very dense situations.
That's a
unique niche.

So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern system
(450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).

30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually
streaming.
Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps for
gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets sent in
most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not continuous.
Let's
take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's assume
that
maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something like that, and
that's probably a generous number. 56 customers. So 56 customers x
8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to
work
out!

Soo 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very
roughly.
If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an
80/20
and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.

80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up

Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20 camp,
giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect conditions, gives
you
3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p streaming.

That's a very expensive platform for that kind of throughput and
subscriber count with such limitations in range and needed a
"perfect
storm" of client distribution and data patterns to really take
advantage of. With working GPS in all modern platforms, I would be
hard pressed to not use an additional 20mhz channel if available,
or
just cut the channel width in half to 10MHz each, and put up 4
Mimosas
or 4 Gen2 Prism radios and have far more than 4x the possible
subscriber account, improved tx/rx efficiency, improve

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Josh Reynolds]

I was saying one direction IS 90 degrees in the "standard tower plan" :)

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:17 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> how else would you suggest building a tower?!?!
>
> friends don't let friends use omni's ;-)
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:15 AM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>>
>> If you do the standard 4xAP so you can do 2 channels and back to back
>> frequency reuse, 90 degrees is one direction...
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>> > actually you don't want them all in one direction, you want the clients
>> > evenly spread in a 90* swath so that you can take advantage of the
>> > MU-MIMO.
>> >
>> > we have clients connected out to 8 miles running in 6x (which is 64qam).
>> >
>> > it actually saves on tower rent because to do the same thing with
>> > regular
>> > 450 APs (which we were prior to deploying the 450m's) you would need 3
>> > APs
>> > each using 20Mhz so 60Mhz total of spectrum used.
>> >
>> > win, win, win.
>> >
>> > but i also wouldn't install them at every tower.
>> >
>> > 2 cents
>> >
>> > -sean
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:58 PM, Josh Reynolds 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I'm just saying it doesn't make sense, unless all your clients are
>> >> short range, in all one direction, and tower rent is costly.
>> >>
>> >> It's a niche of a niche.
>> >>
>> >> (I'm not saying it is a bad product, I'm not saying that at all, I'm
>> >> just saying it's not the second coming like people make it out to be.)
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:55 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>> >> > Then by all means don’t deploy any 450m’s josh.  Geeze dude take a
>> >> > chill
>> >> > pill.
>> >> >
>> >> > I’m just stating what I have on my network in a real world
>> >> > environment,
>> >> > earning me real world dollars and conserving much needed spectrum.
>> >> >
>> >> > It’s not the right tool for every situation, BUT under the right
>> >> > conditions
>> >> > the 450m delivers.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cheers bud
>> >> >
>> >> > -sean
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM Josh Reynolds 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Further note: You can see I did those calcs at 1024QAM, so reduce
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> down the 256QAM for closer to real numbers :)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Josh Reynolds
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Let's break this down a bit.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi anymore?
>> >> >> > *shakes head*
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread apart
>> >> >> > (physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into almost the same
>> >> >> > timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one client that ends up in
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > same window as other clients reduces the overall capacity of the
>> >> >> > AP
>> >> >> > (like in many other situations). It can, in some situations, lead
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > cumulative transfer windows where overall throughput ends up
>> >> >> > getting
>> >> >> > reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up taking
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> > hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of MU-MIMO, not
>> >> >> > even taking into account "massive" systems like 14x14 that end up
>> >> >> > costing quite a bit in overall power budget due to the number of
>> >> >> > elements, further meaning that your range is severely limited in a
>> >> >> > system like this... so only decent in very dense situations.
>> >> >> > That's a
>> >> >> > unique niche.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern system
>> >> >> > (450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually
>> >> >> > streaming.
>> >> >> > Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps for
>> >> >> > gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets sent in
>> >> >> > most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not continuous.
>> >> >> > Let's
>> >> >> > take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's assume
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something like that, and
>> >> >> > that's probably a generous number. 56 customers. So 56 customers x
>> >> >> > 8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to
>> >> >> > work
>> >> >> > out!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Soo 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very
>> >> >> > roughly.
>> >> >> > If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an
>> >> >> > 80/20
>> >> >> > and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > 80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
>> >> >> > 60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20 camp,
>> >> >> > giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect conditions, gives
>> >> >> > you
>> >> >> > 3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p streaming.
>> >> >> >
>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Sean Heskett]

how else would you suggest building a tower?!?!

friends don't let friends use omni's ;-)



On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:15 AM, Josh Reynolds 
wrote:

> If you do the standard 4xAP so you can do 2 channels and back to back
> frequency reuse, 90 degrees is one direction...
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> > actually you don't want them all in one direction, you want the clients
> > evenly spread in a 90* swath so that you can take advantage of the
> MU-MIMO.
> >
> > we have clients connected out to 8 miles running in 6x (which is 64qam).
> >
> > it actually saves on tower rent because to do the same thing with regular
> > 450 APs (which we were prior to deploying the 450m's) you would need 3
> APs
> > each using 20Mhz so 60Mhz total of spectrum used.
> >
> > win, win, win.
> >
> > but i also wouldn't install them at every tower.
> >
> > 2 cents
> >
> > -sean
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:58 PM, Josh Reynolds 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm just saying it doesn't make sense, unless all your clients are
> >> short range, in all one direction, and tower rent is costly.
> >>
> >> It's a niche of a niche.
> >>
> >> (I'm not saying it is a bad product, I'm not saying that at all, I'm
> >> just saying it's not the second coming like people make it out to be.)
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:55 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> >> > Then by all means don’t deploy any 450m’s josh.  Geeze dude take a
> chill
> >> > pill.
> >> >
> >> > I’m just stating what I have on my network in a real world
> environment,
> >> > earning me real world dollars and conserving much needed spectrum.
> >> >
> >> > It’s not the right tool for every situation, BUT under the right
> >> > conditions
> >> > the 450m delivers.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers bud
> >> >
> >> > -sean
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM Josh Reynolds 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Further note: You can see I did those calcs at 1024QAM, so reduce
> that
> >> >> down the 256QAM for closer to real numbers :)
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Josh Reynolds <
> j...@kyneticwifi.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Let's break this down a bit.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi anymore?
> >> >> > *shakes head*
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread apart
> >> >> > (physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into almost the same
> >> >> > timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one client that ends up in
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > same window as other clients reduces the overall capacity of the AP
> >> >> > (like in many other situations). It can, in some situations, lead
> to
> >> >> > cumulative transfer windows where overall throughput ends up
> getting
> >> >> > reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up taking
> a
> >> >> > hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of MU-MIMO, not
> >> >> > even taking into account "massive" systems like 14x14 that end up
> >> >> > costing quite a bit in overall power budget due to the number of
> >> >> > elements, further meaning that your range is severely limited in a
> >> >> > system like this... so only decent in very dense situations.
> That's a
> >> >> > unique niche.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern system
> >> >> > (450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually
> streaming.
> >> >> > Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps for
> >> >> > gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets sent in
> >> >> > most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not continuous. Let's
> >> >> > take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's assume
> that
> >> >> > maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something like that, and
> >> >> > that's probably a generous number. 56 customers. So 56 customers x
> >> >> > 8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to
> work
> >> >> > out!
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Soo 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very
> roughly.
> >> >> > If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an 80/20
> >> >> > and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
> >> >> > 60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20 camp,
> >> >> > giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect conditions, gives
> >> >> > you
> >> >> > 3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p streaming.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That's a very expensive platform for that kind of throughput and
> >> >> > subscriber count with such limitations in range and needed a
> "perfect
> >> >> > storm" of client distribution and data patterns to really take
> >> >> > advantage of. With working GPS in all modern platforms, I would be
> >> >> > hard pressed to not use an additional 20mhz cha

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Josh Reynolds]

If you do the standard 4xAP so you can do 2 channels and back to back
frequency reuse, 90 degrees is one direction...

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> actually you don't want them all in one direction, you want the clients
> evenly spread in a 90* swath so that you can take advantage of the MU-MIMO.
>
> we have clients connected out to 8 miles running in 6x (which is 64qam).
>
> it actually saves on tower rent because to do the same thing with regular
> 450 APs (which we were prior to deploying the 450m's) you would need 3 APs
> each using 20Mhz so 60Mhz total of spectrum used.
>
> win, win, win.
>
> but i also wouldn't install them at every tower.
>
> 2 cents
>
> -sean
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:58 PM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
>>
>> I'm just saying it doesn't make sense, unless all your clients are
>> short range, in all one direction, and tower rent is costly.
>>
>> It's a niche of a niche.
>>
>> (I'm not saying it is a bad product, I'm not saying that at all, I'm
>> just saying it's not the second coming like people make it out to be.)
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:55 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>> > Then by all means don’t deploy any 450m’s josh.  Geeze dude take a chill
>> > pill.
>> >
>> > I’m just stating what I have on my network in a real world environment,
>> > earning me real world dollars and conserving much needed spectrum.
>> >
>> > It’s not the right tool for every situation, BUT under the right
>> > conditions
>> > the 450m delivers.
>> >
>> > Cheers bud
>> >
>> > -sean
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM Josh Reynolds 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Further note: You can see I did those calcs at 1024QAM, so reduce that
>> >> down the 256QAM for closer to real numbers :)
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Josh Reynolds 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Let's break this down a bit.
>> >> >
>> >> > Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi anymore?
>> >> > *shakes head*
>> >> >
>> >> > Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread apart
>> >> > (physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into almost the same
>> >> > timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one client that ends up in
>> >> > the
>> >> > same window as other clients reduces the overall capacity of the AP
>> >> > (like in many other situations). It can, in some situations, lead to
>> >> > cumulative transfer windows where overall throughput ends up getting
>> >> > reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up taking a
>> >> > hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of MU-MIMO, not
>> >> > even taking into account "massive" systems like 14x14 that end up
>> >> > costing quite a bit in overall power budget due to the number of
>> >> > elements, further meaning that your range is severely limited in a
>> >> > system like this... so only decent in very dense situations. That's a
>> >> > unique niche.
>> >> >
>> >> > So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern system
>> >> > (450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).
>> >> >
>> >> > 30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually streaming.
>> >> > Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps for
>> >> > gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets sent in
>> >> > most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not continuous. Let's
>> >> > take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's assume that
>> >> > maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something like that, and
>> >> > that's probably a generous number. 56 customers. So 56 customers x
>> >> > 8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to work
>> >> > out!
>> >> >
>> >> > Soo 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very roughly.
>> >> > If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an 80/20
>> >> > and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.
>> >> >
>> >> > 80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
>> >> > 60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up
>> >> >
>> >> > Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20 camp,
>> >> > giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect conditions, gives
>> >> > you
>> >> > 3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p streaming.
>> >> >
>> >> > That's a very expensive platform for that kind of throughput and
>> >> > subscriber count with such limitations in range and needed a "perfect
>> >> > storm" of client distribution and data patterns to really take
>> >> > advantage of. With working GPS in all modern platforms, I would be
>> >> > hard pressed to not use an additional 20mhz channel if available, or
>> >> > just cut the channel width in half to 10MHz each, and put up 4
>> >> > Mimosas
>> >> > or 4 Gen2 Prism radios and have far more than 4x the possible
>> >> > subscriber account, improved tx/rx efficiency, improved range
>> >> > (increasing distance and SNR in many situations), and greatly reduced
>> >> > cost.
>> >> >
>> >> > Again, I'm far more excited about the 4x increase in spectr

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Sean Heskett]

actually you don't want them all in one direction, you want the clients
evenly spread in a 90* swath so that you can take advantage of the MU-MIMO.

we have clients connected out to 8 miles running in 6x (which is 64qam).

it actually saves on tower rent because to do the same thing with regular
450 APs (which we were prior to deploying the 450m's) you would need 3 APs
each using 20Mhz so 60Mhz total of spectrum used.

win, win, win.

but i also wouldn't install them at every tower.

2 cents

-sean

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:58 PM, Josh Reynolds 
wrote:

> I'm just saying it doesn't make sense, unless all your clients are
> short range, in all one direction, and tower rent is costly.
>
> It's a niche of a niche.
>
> (I'm not saying it is a bad product, I'm not saying that at all, I'm
> just saying it's not the second coming like people make it out to be.)
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:55 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> > Then by all means don’t deploy any 450m’s josh.  Geeze dude take a chill
> > pill.
> >
> > I’m just stating what I have on my network in a real world environment,
> > earning me real world dollars and conserving much needed spectrum.
> >
> > It’s not the right tool for every situation, BUT under the right
> conditions
> > the 450m delivers.
> >
> > Cheers bud
> >
> > -sean
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Further note: You can see I did those calcs at 1024QAM, so reduce that
> >> down the 256QAM for closer to real numbers :)
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Josh Reynolds 
> >> wrote:
> >> > Let's break this down a bit.
> >> >
> >> > Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi anymore?
> >> > *shakes head*
> >> >
> >> > Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread apart
> >> > (physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into almost the same
> >> > timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one client that ends up in the
> >> > same window as other clients reduces the overall capacity of the AP
> >> > (like in many other situations). It can, in some situations, lead to
> >> > cumulative transfer windows where overall throughput ends up getting
> >> > reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up taking a
> >> > hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of MU-MIMO, not
> >> > even taking into account "massive" systems like 14x14 that end up
> >> > costing quite a bit in overall power budget due to the number of
> >> > elements, further meaning that your range is severely limited in a
> >> > system like this... so only decent in very dense situations. That's a
> >> > unique niche.
> >> >
> >> > So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern system
> >> > (450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).
> >> >
> >> > 30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually streaming.
> >> > Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps for
> >> > gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets sent in
> >> > most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not continuous. Let's
> >> > take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's assume that
> >> > maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something like that, and
> >> > that's probably a generous number. 56 customers. So 56 customers x
> >> > 8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to work
> >> > out!
> >> >
> >> > Soo 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very roughly.
> >> > If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an 80/20
> >> > and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.
> >> >
> >> > 80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
> >> > 60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up
> >> >
> >> > Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20 camp,
> >> > giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect conditions, gives you
> >> > 3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p streaming.
> >> >
> >> > That's a very expensive platform for that kind of throughput and
> >> > subscriber count with such limitations in range and needed a "perfect
> >> > storm" of client distribution and data patterns to really take
> >> > advantage of. With working GPS in all modern platforms, I would be
> >> > hard pressed to not use an additional 20mhz channel if available, or
> >> > just cut the channel width in half to 10MHz each, and put up 4 Mimosas
> >> > or 4 Gen2 Prism radios and have far more than 4x the possible
> >> > subscriber account, improved tx/rx efficiency, improved range
> >> > (increasing distance and SNR in many situations), and greatly reduced
> >> > cost.
> >> >
> >> > Again, I'm far more excited about the 4x increase in spectral
> >> > efficiency via OFDMA that doesn't cause you to cut down on tx/rx
> >> > chains for multi-client transmission (costing your range, per client
> >> > snr, and per-client throughput in the process). MU-MIMO is and will
> >> > always be a niche hack that never lived up to what was promised.
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Fe

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Josh Reynolds]

I'm just saying it doesn't make sense, unless all your clients are
short range, in all one direction, and tower rent is costly.

It's a niche of a niche.

(I'm not saying it is a bad product, I'm not saying that at all, I'm
just saying it's not the second coming like people make it out to be.)

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:55 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> Then by all means don’t deploy any 450m’s josh.  Geeze dude take a chill
> pill.
>
> I’m just stating what I have on my network in a real world environment,
> earning me real world dollars and conserving much needed spectrum.
>
> It’s not the right tool for every situation, BUT under the right conditions
> the 450m delivers.
>
> Cheers bud
>
> -sean
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> Further note: You can see I did those calcs at 1024QAM, so reduce that
>> down the 256QAM for closer to real numbers :)
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Josh Reynolds 
>> wrote:
>> > Let's break this down a bit.
>> >
>> > Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi anymore?
>> > *shakes head*
>> >
>> > Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread apart
>> > (physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into almost the same
>> > timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one client that ends up in the
>> > same window as other clients reduces the overall capacity of the AP
>> > (like in many other situations). It can, in some situations, lead to
>> > cumulative transfer windows where overall throughput ends up getting
>> > reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up taking a
>> > hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of MU-MIMO, not
>> > even taking into account "massive" systems like 14x14 that end up
>> > costing quite a bit in overall power budget due to the number of
>> > elements, further meaning that your range is severely limited in a
>> > system like this... so only decent in very dense situations. That's a
>> > unique niche.
>> >
>> > So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern system
>> > (450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).
>> >
>> > 30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually streaming.
>> > Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps for
>> > gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets sent in
>> > most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not continuous. Let's
>> > take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's assume that
>> > maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something like that, and
>> > that's probably a generous number. 56 customers. So 56 customers x
>> > 8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to work
>> > out!
>> >
>> > Soo 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very roughly.
>> > If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an 80/20
>> > and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.
>> >
>> > 80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
>> > 60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up
>> >
>> > Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20 camp,
>> > giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect conditions, gives you
>> > 3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p streaming.
>> >
>> > That's a very expensive platform for that kind of throughput and
>> > subscriber count with such limitations in range and needed a "perfect
>> > storm" of client distribution and data patterns to really take
>> > advantage of. With working GPS in all modern platforms, I would be
>> > hard pressed to not use an additional 20mhz channel if available, or
>> > just cut the channel width in half to 10MHz each, and put up 4 Mimosas
>> > or 4 Gen2 Prism radios and have far more than 4x the possible
>> > subscriber account, improved tx/rx efficiency, improved range
>> > (increasing distance and SNR in many situations), and greatly reduced
>> > cost.
>> >
>> > Again, I'm far more excited about the 4x increase in spectral
>> > efficiency via OFDMA that doesn't cause you to cut down on tx/rx
>> > chains for multi-client transmission (costing your range, per client
>> > snr, and per-client throughput in the process). MU-MIMO is and will
>> > always be a niche hack that never lived up to what was promised.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>> >> Being able to load a 450m AP with 80 subs and deliver 30mbps service to
>> >> all
>> >> of them at peak Netflix time in a 20mhz channel without breaking a
>> >> sweat is
>> >> worth every penny.
>> >>
>> >> But it’s one tool in the tool box and isn’t the best solution for every
>> >> deployment.
>> >>
>> >> 2 cents
>> >>
>> >> -sean
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:32 PM Josh Reynolds 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> The more I dig into MU-MIMO, the more I realize it's not all that
>> >>> great.
>> >>>
>> >>> I am far more excited by the 9 client simultaneous transmissions in
>> >>> 802.11ax via OFDMA.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Moffett 
>> >>> wrote

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Sean Heskett]

Then by all means don’t deploy any 450m’s josh.  Geeze dude take a chill
pill.

I’m just stating what I have on my network in a real world environment,
earning me real world dollars and conserving much needed spectrum.

It’s not the right tool for every situation, BUT under the right conditions
the 450m delivers.

Cheers bud

-sean



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:46 PM Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> Further note: You can see I did those calcs at 1024QAM, so reduce that
> down the 256QAM for closer to real numbers :)
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
> > Let's break this down a bit.
> >
> > Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi anymore?
> *shakes head*
> >
> > Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread apart
> > (physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into almost the same
> > timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one client that ends up in the
> > same window as other clients reduces the overall capacity of the AP
> > (like in many other situations). It can, in some situations, lead to
> > cumulative transfer windows where overall throughput ends up getting
> > reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up taking a
> > hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of MU-MIMO, not
> > even taking into account "massive" systems like 14x14 that end up
> > costing quite a bit in overall power budget due to the number of
> > elements, further meaning that your range is severely limited in a
> > system like this... so only decent in very dense situations. That's a
> > unique niche.
> >
> > So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern system
> > (450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).
> >
> > 30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually streaming.
> > Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps for
> > gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets sent in
> > most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not continuous. Let's
> > take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's assume that
> > maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something like that, and
> > that's probably a generous number. 56 customers. So 56 customers x
> > 8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to work
> > out!
> >
> > Soo 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very roughly.
> > If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an 80/20
> > and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.
> >
> > 80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
> > 60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up
> >
> > Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20 camp,
> > giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect conditions, gives you
> > 3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p streaming.
> >
> > That's a very expensive platform for that kind of throughput and
> > subscriber count with such limitations in range and needed a "perfect
> > storm" of client distribution and data patterns to really take
> > advantage of. With working GPS in all modern platforms, I would be
> > hard pressed to not use an additional 20mhz channel if available, or
> > just cut the channel width in half to 10MHz each, and put up 4 Mimosas
> > or 4 Gen2 Prism radios and have far more than 4x the possible
> > subscriber account, improved tx/rx efficiency, improved range
> > (increasing distance and SNR in many situations), and greatly reduced
> > cost.
> >
> > Again, I'm far more excited about the 4x increase in spectral
> > efficiency via OFDMA that doesn't cause you to cut down on tx/rx
> > chains for multi-client transmission (costing your range, per client
> > snr, and per-client throughput in the process). MU-MIMO is and will
> > always be a niche hack that never lived up to what was promised.
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> >> Being able to load a 450m AP with 80 subs and deliver 30mbps service to
> all
> >> of them at peak Netflix time in a 20mhz channel without breaking a
> sweat is
> >> worth every penny.
> >>
> >> But it’s one tool in the tool box and isn’t the best solution for every
> >> deployment.
> >>
> >> 2 cents
> >>
> >> -sean
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:32 PM Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The more I dig into MU-MIMO, the more I realize it's not all that
> great.
> >>>
> >>> I am far more excited by the 9 client simultaneous transmissions in
> >>> 802.11ax via OFDMA.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Moffett 
> wrote:
> >>> > 450 still does a few things that ePMP doesn't.
> >>> > Plus there's that 14 chain MU-MIMO thing..ePMP will probably
> never
> >>> > have
> >>> > something like that.
> >>> > UI is still sluggish on ePMP.
> >>> >
> >>> > On the other hand ePMP has gotten so many feature improvements over
> >>> > these
> >>> > past few years that it's gotten really hard to argue with the value
> it
> >>> > provides.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > -- Original Message --
> >>> > From: "Chuc

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Josh Reynolds]

Further note: You can see I did those calcs at 1024QAM, so reduce that
down the 256QAM for closer to real numbers :)

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
> Let's break this down a bit.
>
> Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi anymore? *shakes 
> head*
>
> Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread apart
> (physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into almost the same
> timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one client that ends up in the
> same window as other clients reduces the overall capacity of the AP
> (like in many other situations). It can, in some situations, lead to
> cumulative transfer windows where overall throughput ends up getting
> reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up taking a
> hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of MU-MIMO, not
> even taking into account "massive" systems like 14x14 that end up
> costing quite a bit in overall power budget due to the number of
> elements, further meaning that your range is severely limited in a
> system like this... so only decent in very dense situations. That's a
> unique niche.
>
> So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern system
> (450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).
>
> 30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually streaming.
> Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps for
> gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets sent in
> most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not continuous. Let's
> take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's assume that
> maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something like that, and
> that's probably a generous number. 56 customers. So 56 customers x
> 8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to work
> out!
>
> Soo 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very roughly.
> If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an 80/20
> and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.
>
> 80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
> 60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up
>
> Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20 camp,
> giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect conditions, gives you
> 3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p streaming.
>
> That's a very expensive platform for that kind of throughput and
> subscriber count with such limitations in range and needed a "perfect
> storm" of client distribution and data patterns to really take
> advantage of. With working GPS in all modern platforms, I would be
> hard pressed to not use an additional 20mhz channel if available, or
> just cut the channel width in half to 10MHz each, and put up 4 Mimosas
> or 4 Gen2 Prism radios and have far more than 4x the possible
> subscriber account, improved tx/rx efficiency, improved range
> (increasing distance and SNR in many situations), and greatly reduced
> cost.
>
> Again, I'm far more excited about the 4x increase in spectral
> efficiency via OFDMA that doesn't cause you to cut down on tx/rx
> chains for multi-client transmission (costing your range, per client
> snr, and per-client throughput in the process). MU-MIMO is and will
> always be a niche hack that never lived up to what was promised.
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>> Being able to load a 450m AP with 80 subs and deliver 30mbps service to all
>> of them at peak Netflix time in a 20mhz channel without breaking a sweat is
>> worth every penny.
>>
>> But it’s one tool in the tool box and isn’t the best solution for every
>> deployment.
>>
>> 2 cents
>>
>> -sean
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:32 PM Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>>
>>> The more I dig into MU-MIMO, the more I realize it's not all that great.
>>>
>>> I am far more excited by the 9 client simultaneous transmissions in
>>> 802.11ax via OFDMA.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>>> > 450 still does a few things that ePMP doesn't.
>>> > Plus there's that 14 chain MU-MIMO thing..ePMP will probably never
>>> > have
>>> > something like that.
>>> > UI is still sluggish on ePMP.
>>> >
>>> > On the other hand ePMP has gotten so many feature improvements over
>>> > these
>>> > past few years that it's gotten really hard to argue with the value it
>>> > provides.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > -- Original Message --
>>> > From: "Chuck McCown" 
>>> > To: af@afmug.com
>>> > Sent: 2/12/2018 8:27:56 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>> >
>>> > The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.
>>> >
>>> > So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you sell to those
>>> > 25?
>>> >
>>> > Packetflux GPS sync.
>>> >
>>> > From: Joe Novak
>>> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
>>> > To: af@afmug.com
>>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>> >
>>> > What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the
>>> > early
>>> > days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are havin

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Josh Reynolds]

Let's break this down a bit.

Firstly, what outdoor PTMP platform is really using WiFi anymore? *shakes head*

Mu-MIMO only works if the clients are sufficiently spread apart
(physically), and their tx/rx windows can fit into almost the same
timeframe. Any degradation in signal of one client that ends up in the
same window as other clients reduces the overall capacity of the AP
(like in many other situations). It can, in some situations, lead to
cumulative transfer windows where overall throughput ends up getting
reduced as the rx/tx hold time for the other clients end up taking a
hit in efficiency. This is one of the few failings of MU-MIMO, not
even taking into account "massive" systems like 14x14 that end up
costing quite a bit in overall power budget due to the number of
elements, further meaning that your range is severely limited in a
system like this... so only decent in very dense situations. That's a
unique niche.

So, 80 clients. That's a pretty average number for a modern system
(450, Mimosa, AC Prism Gen2).

30Mbps per client... okay, but most customers are actually streaming.
Let's throw another margin on top of that and say a few Mbps for
gaming. 10Mbps is a nice round number. Now, that data gets sent in
most services in bursts and buffered, so it's not continuous. Let's
take that average number down to about 8 Mbps. Now let's assume that
maybe 70% of those 80 customers is doing something like that, and
that's probably a generous number. 56 customers. So 56 customers x
8Mbps = 448Mbps. On a 20Mhz channel? Wait, this doesn't seem to work
out!

Soo 1024 QAM on a 20MHz channel gives you 250Mbps, very roughly.
If you're optimistic about modern patterns, you're between an 80/20
and a 60/40 Download/Upload ratio on a split GPS synced system.

80/20 = 200Mbps Down, 50Mbps Up
60/40 = 150 Down, 100Mbps Up

Let's say for the sake of argument that you're in the 80/20 camp,
giving you 200Mbps to work with in above perfect conditions, gives you
3.57 Mbps per subscriber. Roughly 4M/sub, good for 480p streaming.

That's a very expensive platform for that kind of throughput and
subscriber count with such limitations in range and needed a "perfect
storm" of client distribution and data patterns to really take
advantage of. With working GPS in all modern platforms, I would be
hard pressed to not use an additional 20mhz channel if available, or
just cut the channel width in half to 10MHz each, and put up 4 Mimosas
or 4 Gen2 Prism radios and have far more than 4x the possible
subscriber account, improved tx/rx efficiency, improved range
(increasing distance and SNR in many situations), and greatly reduced
cost.

Again, I'm far more excited about the 4x increase in spectral
efficiency via OFDMA that doesn't cause you to cut down on tx/rx
chains for multi-client transmission (costing your range, per client
snr, and per-client throughput in the process). MU-MIMO is and will
always be a niche hack that never lived up to what was promised.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> Being able to load a 450m AP with 80 subs and deliver 30mbps service to all
> of them at peak Netflix time in a 20mhz channel without breaking a sweat is
> worth every penny.
>
> But it’s one tool in the tool box and isn’t the best solution for every
> deployment.
>
> 2 cents
>
> -sean
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:32 PM Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> The more I dig into MU-MIMO, the more I realize it's not all that great.
>>
>> I am far more excited by the 9 client simultaneous transmissions in
>> 802.11ax via OFDMA.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>> > 450 still does a few things that ePMP doesn't.
>> > Plus there's that 14 chain MU-MIMO thing..ePMP will probably never
>> > have
>> > something like that.
>> > UI is still sluggish on ePMP.
>> >
>> > On the other hand ePMP has gotten so many feature improvements over
>> > these
>> > past few years that it's gotten really hard to argue with the value it
>> > provides.
>> >
>> >
>> > -- Original Message --
>> > From: "Chuck McCown" 
>> > To: af@afmug.com
>> > Sent: 2/12/2018 8:27:56 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>> >
>> > The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.
>> >
>> > So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you sell to those
>> > 25?
>> >
>> > Packetflux GPS sync.
>> >
>> > From: Joe Novak
>> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
>> > To: af@afmug.com
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>> >
>> > What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the
>> > early
>> > days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are having
>> > weird GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this problem
>> > once in a while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though. That is
>> > assuming density isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I don't exactly
>> > have enough experience with it. Most of our APs are sitting right around
>> > 25
>> > customers, and

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Sean Heskett]

Not everyone uses the Internet at the same time bud.

My point is that we have APs with 80 subs on 30mbps package and the sector
hasn’t gotten past 80% utilization.

Try that with a Wi-Fi based AP in a 20mhz channel.

-sean

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:15 PM Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> You have 2.5G ports on that AP do you?
>
> Fascinating.
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> > Being able to load a 450m AP with 80 subs and deliver 30mbps service to
> all
> > of them at peak Netflix time in a 20mhz channel without breaking a sweat
> is
> > worth every penny.
> >
> > But it’s one tool in the tool box and isn’t the best solution for every
> > deployment.
> >
> > 2 cents
> >
> > -sean
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:32 PM Josh Reynolds 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> The more I dig into MU-MIMO, the more I realize it's not all that great.
> >>
> >> I am far more excited by the 9 client simultaneous transmissions in
> >> 802.11ax via OFDMA.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Moffett 
> wrote:
> >> > 450 still does a few things that ePMP doesn't.
> >> > Plus there's that 14 chain MU-MIMO thing..ePMP will probably never
> >> > have
> >> > something like that.
> >> > UI is still sluggish on ePMP.
> >> >
> >> > On the other hand ePMP has gotten so many feature improvements over
> >> > these
> >> > past few years that it's gotten really hard to argue with the value it
> >> > provides.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -- Original Message --
> >> > From: "Chuck McCown" 
> >> > To: af@afmug.com
> >> > Sent: 2/12/2018 8:27:56 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> >> >
> >> > The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.
> >> >
> >> > So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you sell to
> those
> >> > 25?
> >> >
> >> > Packetflux GPS sync.
> >> >
> >> > From: Joe Novak
> >> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
> >> > To: af@afmug.com
> >> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> >> >
> >> > What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the
> >> > early
> >> > days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are
> having
> >> > weird GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this
> problem
> >> > once in a while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though. That
> is
> >> > assuming density isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I don't
> exactly
> >> > have enough experience with it. Most of our APs are sitting right
> around
> >> > 25
> >> > customers, and according to airtime we still have quite a bit of room.
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza
> >> > 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On
> Rockets
> >> >> and Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on APs
> and
> >> >> on
> >> >> PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well since August
> of
> >> >> 2017
> >> >> when I replaced all the radios on this network and have had to change
> >> >> them
> >> >> since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens and work with us on issues.
> >> >> The
> >> >> other one from El Paso uses my services once in a while and works
> with
> >> >> us as
> >> >> well.  Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still
> no
> >> >> issues. I used larger dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.
> >> >>
> >> >> Jaime Solorza
> >> >>
> >> >> On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all
> other
> >> >>> radios within 4 mile radius...
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Jaime Solorza
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
> >> 
> >>  All on the same tower, right?
> >> 
> >>  From: Jaime Solorza
> >>  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
> >>  To: Animal Farm
> >>  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> >> 
> >>  Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4
> >>  APs
> >>  in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
> >> 
> >>  Jaime Solorza
> >> 
> >>  On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about
> >> > 5.5
> >> > miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but
> >> > he is
> >> > gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
> >> >
> >> > Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points
> >> > peacefully
> >> > coexist on a tower?
> >> > Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
> >> > routers.
> >> >
> >> >
>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Josh Reynolds]

You have 2.5G ports on that AP do you?

Fascinating.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 12:12 AM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
> Being able to load a 450m AP with 80 subs and deliver 30mbps service to all
> of them at peak Netflix time in a 20mhz channel without breaking a sweat is
> worth every penny.
>
> But it’s one tool in the tool box and isn’t the best solution for every
> deployment.
>
> 2 cents
>
> -sean
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:32 PM Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> The more I dig into MU-MIMO, the more I realize it's not all that great.
>>
>> I am far more excited by the 9 client simultaneous transmissions in
>> 802.11ax via OFDMA.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>> > 450 still does a few things that ePMP doesn't.
>> > Plus there's that 14 chain MU-MIMO thing..ePMP will probably never
>> > have
>> > something like that.
>> > UI is still sluggish on ePMP.
>> >
>> > On the other hand ePMP has gotten so many feature improvements over
>> > these
>> > past few years that it's gotten really hard to argue with the value it
>> > provides.
>> >
>> >
>> > -- Original Message --
>> > From: "Chuck McCown" 
>> > To: af@afmug.com
>> > Sent: 2/12/2018 8:27:56 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>> >
>> > The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.
>> >
>> > So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you sell to those
>> > 25?
>> >
>> > Packetflux GPS sync.
>> >
>> > From: Joe Novak
>> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
>> > To: af@afmug.com
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>> >
>> > What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the
>> > early
>> > days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are having
>> > weird GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this problem
>> > once in a while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though. That is
>> > assuming density isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I don't exactly
>> > have enough experience with it. Most of our APs are sitting right around
>> > 25
>> > customers, and according to airtime we still have quite a bit of room.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza
>> > 
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On Rockets
>> >> and Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on APs and
>> >> on
>> >> PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well since August of
>> >> 2017
>> >> when I replaced all the radios on this network and have had to change
>> >> them
>> >> since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens and work with us on issues.
>> >> The
>> >> other one from El Paso uses my services once in a while and works with
>> >> us as
>> >> well.  Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still no
>> >> issues. I used larger dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.
>> >>
>> >> Jaime Solorza
>> >>
>> >> On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
>> >> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
>> >>> radios within 4 mile radius...
>> >>>
>> >>> Jaime Solorza
>> >>>
>> >>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>> 
>>  All on the same tower, right?
>> 
>>  From: Jaime Solorza
>>  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>>  To: Animal Farm
>>  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>> 
>>  Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4
>>  APs
>>  in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>> 
>>  Jaime Solorza
>> 
>>  On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>> >
>> > Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about
>> > 5.5
>> > miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but
>> > he is
>> > gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
>> >
>> > Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points
>> > peacefully
>> > coexist on a tower?
>> > Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
>> > routers.
>> >
>> >

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Sean Heskett]

Being able to load a 450m AP with 80 subs and deliver 30mbps service to all
of them at peak Netflix time in a 20mhz channel without breaking a sweat is
worth every penny.

But it’s one tool in the tool box and isn’t the best solution for every
deployment.

2 cents

-sean



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:32 PM Josh Reynolds  wrote:

> The more I dig into MU-MIMO, the more I realize it's not all that great.
>
> I am far more excited by the 9 client simultaneous transmissions in
> 802.11ax via OFDMA.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> > 450 still does a few things that ePMP doesn't.
> > Plus there's that 14 chain MU-MIMO thing..ePMP will probably never
> have
> > something like that.
> > UI is still sluggish on ePMP.
> >
> > On the other hand ePMP has gotten so many feature improvements over these
> > past few years that it's gotten really hard to argue with the value it
> > provides.
> >
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Chuck McCown" 
> > To: af@afmug.com
> > Sent: 2/12/2018 8:27:56 PM
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> >
> > The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.
> >
> > So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you sell to those
> 25?
> >
> > Packetflux GPS sync.
> >
> > From: Joe Novak
> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
> > To: af@afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> >
> > What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the
> early
> > days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are having
> > weird GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this problem
> > once in a while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though. That is
> > assuming density isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I don't exactly
> > have enough experience with it. Most of our APs are sitting right around
> 25
> > customers, and according to airtime we still have quite a bit of room.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza <
> losguyswirel...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On Rockets
> >> and Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on APs and
> on
> >> PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well since August of
> 2017
> >> when I replaced all the radios on this network and have had to change
> them
> >> since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens and work with us on issues.  The
> >> other one from El Paso uses my services once in a while and works with
> us as
> >> well.  Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still no
> >> issues. I used larger dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.
> >>
> >> Jaime Solorza
> >>
> >> On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
> >>> radios within 4 mile radius...
> >>>
> >>> Jaime Solorza
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
> 
>  All on the same tower, right?
> 
>  From: Jaime Solorza
>  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>  To: Animal Farm
>  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> 
>  Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs
>  in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
> 
>  Jaime Solorza
> 
>  On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
> >
> > Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about
> 5.5
> > miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but
> he is
> > gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
> >
> > Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points
> peacefully
> > coexist on a tower?
> > Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
> > routers.
> >
> >
>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Josh Reynolds]

The more I dig into MU-MIMO, the more I realize it's not all that great.

I am far more excited by the 9 client simultaneous transmissions in
802.11ax via OFDMA.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 8:00 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 450 still does a few things that ePMP doesn't.
> Plus there's that 14 chain MU-MIMO thing..ePMP will probably never have
> something like that.
> UI is still sluggish on ePMP.
>
> On the other hand ePMP has gotten so many feature improvements over these
> past few years that it's gotten really hard to argue with the value it
> provides.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Chuck McCown" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 2/12/2018 8:27:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>
> The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.
>
> So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you sell to those 25?
>
> Packetflux GPS sync.
>
> From: Joe Novak
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>
> What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the early
> days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are having
> weird GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this problem
> once in a while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though. That is
> assuming density isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I don't exactly
> have enough experience with it. Most of our APs are sitting right around 25
> customers, and according to airtime we still have quite a bit of room.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>>
>> I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On Rockets
>> and Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on APs and on
>> PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well since August of 2017
>> when I replaced all the radios on this network and have had to change them
>> since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens and work with us on issues.  The
>> other one from El Paso uses my services once in a while and works with us as
>> well.  Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still no
>> issues. I used larger dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
>>> radios within 4 mile radius...
>>>
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

 All on the same tower, right?

 From: Jaime Solorza
 Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
 To: Animal Farm
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

 Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs
 in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...

 Jaime Solorza

 On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>
> Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
> miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
> gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
>
> Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
> coexist on a tower?
> Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
> routers.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Chuck McCown]

I am thinking of building an AF11 feed horn for my regular SM reflector 
dishes... probably not legal to use but cheap.  Call it a “test feedhorn”... ;-)

But then again, if I am running unlicensed, do I care if I am using legal 
dishes

Hypothetical questions of course...

From: Jeff Broadwick - Lists 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

I love the AF-11 for its price point and overall value.  It’s a great product 
to use to build out an 11GHz backbone if you don’t need the speed of the big 
iron in the immediate future.


Jeff Broadwick 
CTIconnect

312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

On Feb 12, 2018, at 10:55 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:


  Wrong description. They are high value.

  Build quality is actually pretty good.



bp


On 2/12/2018 7:20 PM, TJ Trout wrote:

af11's are pretty cheap

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists  
wrote:

  In general, ePMP.


  Jeff Broadwick 
  CTIconnect

  312-205-2519 Office
  574-220-7826 Cell
  jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

  On Feb 12, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:


So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?

I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers.  

I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I didn’t 
like it when it first came out.  

From: Joe Novak 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have 
vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some frequency 
separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's a purpose 
built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has the option to 
use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even better, I think it hit 
general availability.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza 
 wrote:

  Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other 
radios within 4 mile radius...


  Jaime Solorza

  On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

All on the same tower, right?

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 
APs in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues... 

Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

  Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is 
about 5.5 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he 
is gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.  

  Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points 
peacefully coexist on a tower?
  Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home 
routers.  

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Jeff Broadwick - Lists]

I love the AF-11 for its price point and overall value.  It’s a great product 
to use to build out an 11GHz backbone if you don’t need the speed of the big 
iron in the immediate future.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

> On Feb 12, 2018, at 10:55 PM, Bill Prince  wrote:
> 
> Wrong description. They are high value.
> 
> Build quality is actually pretty good.
> 
> 
> bp
> 
> 
>> On 2/12/2018 7:20 PM, TJ Trout wrote:
>> af11's are pretty cheap
>> 
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists  
>>> wrote:
>>> In general, ePMP.
>>> 
>>> Jeff Broadwick
>>> CTIconnect
>>> 312-205-2519 Office
>>> 574-220-7826 Cell
>>> jbroadw...@cticonnect.com
>>> 
>>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>> 
 So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?
  
 I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers. 
  
 I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I didn’t 
 like it when it first came out.  
  
 From: Joe Novak
 Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
 To: af@afmug.com
 Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
  
 We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have 
 vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some 
 frequency separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's 
 a purpose built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has 
 the option to use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even 
 better, I think it hit general availability.
  
 On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza  
 wrote:
> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other 
> radios within 4 mile radius...
> 
> Jaime Solorza
>  
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>> All on the same tower, right?
>>  
>> From: Jaime Solorza
>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>> To: Animal Farm
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>  
>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs 
>> in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>  
>> Jaime Solorza
>>  
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>> Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 
>>> miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he 
>>> is gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume. 
>>>  
>>> Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully 
>>> coexist on a tower?
>>> Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home 
>>> routers. 
 
  
>> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Adam Moffett]

Why not both?  They rob themselves and also rob Ubiquiti, but that's 
better than letting Ubiquiti eat their lunch.



-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Jones" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 11:09:50 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

I was given the budget if i wanted it for 450. After alot of 
consideration i just couldnt justify the 450 cost over epmp. Only a 
marginal aggregate gain. Mumimopappajohnspizza is so far not hammered 
snot like it was going to be, and hurt more by interference. Afaik 450 
was limited in band as well.
Epmp is so cheap you can keep throwing access points at it, different 
bands for different distances. We limit epmp to 8 miles, stay 
predominately in 5.1, 5 8 has more power, but everybody and their 
brother mucks it up.
We do lite APs and buy 4 packs of the upgrade keys so we always have 
them on hand.
I used to think cambium shot themselves in the foot with epmp. But 
really, they just robbed ubiquiti of a market share


On Feb 12, 2018 9:55 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:

Wrong description. They are high value.

Build quality is actually pretty good.



bp



On 2/12/2018 7:20 PM, TJ Trout wrote:

af11's are pretty cheap

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists 
 wrote:

In general, ePMP.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519  Office
574-220-7826  Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

On Feb 12, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:


So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?

I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers.

I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I 
didn’t like it when it first came out.


From:Joe Novak
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some 
have vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have 
some frequency separation. I really like them. Latency under load 
is good, it's a purpose built radio and I think it serves it's 
purpose well. If he has the option to use the AF5XHD or whatever 
the naming convention is even better, I think it hit general 
availability.


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza 
 wrote:
Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all 
other radios within 4 mile radius...


Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

All on the same tower, right?

From:Jaime Solorza
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
To:Animal Farm
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 
4 APs in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no 
issues...


Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is 
about 5.5 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest 
AF5X to him but he is gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I 
presume.


Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points 
peacefully coexist on a tower?
Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than 
home routers.

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Steve Jones]

I was given the budget if i wanted it for 450. After alot of consideration
i just couldnt justify the 450 cost over epmp. Only a marginal aggregate
gain. Mumimopappajohnspizza is so far not hammered snot like it was going
to be, and hurt more by interference. Afaik 450 was limited in band as well.
Epmp is so cheap you can keep throwing access points at it, different bands
for different distances. We limit epmp to 8 miles, stay predominately in
5.1, 5 8 has more power, but everybody and their brother mucks it up.
We do lite APs and buy 4 packs of the upgrade keys so we always have them
on hand.
I used to think cambium shot themselves in the foot with epmp. But really,
they just robbed ubiquiti of a market share

On Feb 12, 2018 9:55 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:

Wrong description. They are high value.

Build quality is actually pretty good.


bp



On 2/12/2018 7:20 PM, TJ Trout wrote:

af11's are pretty cheap

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists 
wrote:

> In general, ePMP.
>
> Jeff Broadwick
> CTIconnect
> 312-205-2519 <%28312%29%20205-2519> Office
> 574-220-7826 <%28574%29%20220-7826> Cell
> jbroadw...@cticonnect.com
>
> On Feb 12, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?
>
> I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers.
>
> I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I didn’t
> like it when it first came out.
>
> *From:* Joe Novak
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>
> We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have
> vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some
> frequency separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's
> a purpose built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has
> the option to use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even
> better, I think it hit general availability.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
>> radios within 4 mile radius...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>
>>> All on the same tower, right?
>>>
>>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>>> *To:* Animal Farm
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>>
>>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs
>>> in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>>
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>>
 Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
 gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.

 Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
 coexist on a tower?
 Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
 routers.

>>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Bill Prince]

Wrong description. They are high value.

Build quality is actually pretty good.


bp


On 2/12/2018 7:20 PM, TJ Trout wrote:

af11's are pretty cheap

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists 
mailto:jeffl...@att.net>> wrote:


In general, ePMP.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519  Office
574-220-7826  Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com 

On Feb 12, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:


So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?
I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers.
I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I
didn’t like it when it first came out.
*From:* Joe Novak
*Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some
have vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta
have some frequency separation. I really like them. Latency under
load is good, it's a purpose built radio and I think it serves
it's purpose well. If he has the option to use the AF5XHD or
whatever the naming convention is even better, I think it hit
general availability.
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza
 wrote:

Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft
away...all other radios within 4 mile radius...

Jaime Solorza
On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

All on the same tower, right?
*From:* Jaime Solorza
*Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
*To:* Animal Farm
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5
GHz off 4 APs in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3
WISPs...no issues...
Jaime Solorza
On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown" 
wrote:

Talking to a friend that wants to build a small
wisp.  He is about 5.5 miles from a backbone
connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access
points peacefully coexist on a tower?
Very rural area. Not expecting much interference
other than home routers.

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Mike Hammett]

Long gone. 

5150 - 5350 and 5470 - 5850 (with varring power restrictions) 

5150 - 5250 is actually the second most powerful band now. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:44:55 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp 




Back in the day, the 5.2 band was limited to indoor or low power. Is that 
limitation gone? 




From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 6:50 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp 


These days you have lots of 5.x ghz to work with. You've got 5.1 through 5.8 
minus that chunk of TDWR that they took out of the middle. 
Any products will coexist when you have that much room to spread them around. 


-- Original Message -- 
From: "Chuck McCown" < ch...@wbmfg.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 2/12/2018 6:32:04 PM 
Subject: [AFMUG] mini wisp 






Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp. He is about 5.5 miles 
from a backbone connection. I would suggest AF5X to him but he is gonna want to 
use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume. 

Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully coexist 
on a tower? 
Very rural area. Not expecting much interference other than home routers. 

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Chuck McCown]

Back in the day, the 5.2 band was limited to indoor or low power.  Is that 
limitation gone?

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 6:50 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

These days you have lots of 5.x ghz to work with.  You've got 5.1 through 5.8 
minus that chunk of TDWR that they took out of the middle.
Any products will coexist when you have that much room to spread them around.


-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 6:32:04 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] mini wisp

  Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 miles 
from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is gonna want 
to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.  

  Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully 
coexist on a tower?
  Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home routers.  

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[TJ Trout]

https://www.ubnt.com/products/#ufiber

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:26 PM, TJ Trout  wrote:

> Chuck, don't forget to look at the GPON SFP OLT's available probably
> cheaper, easier and more efficient than AE these days?
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> I called Mr. Google at home once, at first they wouldn’t let me talk to
>> him but I explained that our DNS was very slow, finally his housekeeper
>> took the wireless phone out to the pool and he took a few minutes to listen
>> to me.  I wasn’t sure he was really listening to my bitching but it started
>> working later in the day.  So I guess he asked someone to look at it.  I
>> think I still have that matchbook with his number in it...
>>
>> *From:* Dennis Burgess
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 3:35 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>>
>>
>> I would not state that 8.8.8.8 or any of the public DNS servers out there
>> that state that you can use their DNS servers are bad.  However, think of
>> these two issues:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1.   What happens when that DNS server returns answers (still
>> responds), just it takes 6000 ms to do so. ?  Who do you contact?
>>
>> 2.   If you are not paying for it, then what kind of influence can
>> you have on it?   I look at Google. Is google within your circle of
>> influence?   No?  You can’t pick up the phone and call them, you can barely
>> find an e-mail to email them?   And even if you could call them, you are
>> not paying them anything, why do they care what is occurring? They don’t!
>>
>>
>>
>> DNS is a required function to work on-line, simple as that, if its slow,
>> etc., then it’s your service that’s slow not the DNS servers, hence, why
>> you need a fast responding DNS server.
>>
>>
>>
>> In this case, using your upstream and caching at the MT is most likely
>> fine and if you wish to put on a full blown DNS server, then you can do so
>> at minimal cost, but don’t use something that you can’t influence.  I can
>> tell people how many times I have found issues with DNS that they don’t own
>> or control; and have little to say about how it operates..   Its wayyy to
>> often.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dennis Burgess
>>
>> www.linktechs.net – 314-735-0270 x103 <(314)%20735-0270> –
>> dmburg...@linktechs.net
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Sterling Jacobson
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 3:10 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that was me you asked about those three items.
>>
>>
>>
>> AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it
>> ‘applies’.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do like redundancy though.
>>
>>
>>
>> So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are
>> relatively cheap.
>>
>>
>>
>> With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping,
>> I just shape at the CPE or switch port.
>>
>>
>>
>> So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a
>> SFP switch and two CCR routers.
>>
>> I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those
>> running VRRP between them works great.
>>
>> Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have
>> ‘standard’ redundancy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units,
>> and have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.
>>
>>
>>
>> They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between
>> them to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.
>>
>>
>>
>> Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.
>>
>>
>>
>> I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep
>> track of power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> That’s about it.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rinse, repeat.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>>
>>
>>
>> Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Chuck McCown
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
>>
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>>
>>
>>
>> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
>> or so homes.
>>
>> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
>> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
>> expertise.
>>
>>
>>
>> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>>
>>
>>
>> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
>> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
>> something like this:
>>
>>
>>
>>1. Buy a big CCR.
>>2. Hire Linktechs

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[TJ Trout]

Chuck, don't forget to look at the GPON SFP OLT's available probably
cheaper, easier and more efficient than AE these days?

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> I called Mr. Google at home once, at first they wouldn’t let me talk to
> him but I explained that our DNS was very slow, finally his housekeeper
> took the wireless phone out to the pool and he took a few minutes to listen
> to me.  I wasn’t sure he was really listening to my bitching but it started
> working later in the day.  So I guess he asked someone to look at it.  I
> think I still have that matchbook with his number in it...
>
> *From:* Dennis Burgess
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 3:35 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
>
> I would not state that 8.8.8.8 or any of the public DNS servers out there
> that state that you can use their DNS servers are bad.  However, think of
> these two issues:
>
>
>
> 1.   What happens when that DNS server returns answers (still
> responds), just it takes 6000 ms to do so. ?  Who do you contact?
>
> 2.   If you are not paying for it, then what kind of influence can
> you have on it?   I look at Google. Is google within your circle of
> influence?   No?  You can’t pick up the phone and call them, you can barely
> find an e-mail to email them?   And even if you could call them, you are
> not paying them anything, why do they care what is occurring? They don’t!
>
>
>
> DNS is a required function to work on-line, simple as that, if its slow,
> etc., then it’s your service that’s slow not the DNS servers, hence, why
> you need a fast responding DNS server.
>
>
>
> In this case, using your upstream and caching at the MT is most likely
> fine and if you wish to put on a full blown DNS server, then you can do so
> at minimal cost, but don’t use something that you can’t influence.  I can
> tell people how many times I have found issues with DNS that they don’t own
> or control; and have little to say about how it operates..   Its wayyy to
> often.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dennis Burgess
>
> www.linktechs.net – 314-735-0270 x103 <(314)%20735-0270> –
> dmburg...@linktechs.net
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Sterling Jacobson
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 3:10 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
>
>
> I think that was me you asked about those three items.
>
>
>
> AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.
>
>
>
> I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it
> ‘applies’.
>
>
>
> I do like redundancy though.
>
>
>
> So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are
> relatively cheap.
>
>
>
> With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping,
> I just shape at the CPE or switch port.
>
>
>
> So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a
> SFP switch and two CCR routers.
>
> I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those
> running VRRP between them works great.
>
> Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have
> ‘standard’ redundancy.
>
>
>
> Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units,
> and have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.
>
>
>
> They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between
> them to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.
>
>
>
> Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.
>
>
>
> Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.
>
>
>
> I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.
>
>
>
> I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track
> of power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.
>
>
>
> That’s about it.
>
>
>
> Rinse, repeat.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
>
>
> Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...
>
>
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
>
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
>
>
> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
> or so homes.
>
> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
> expertise.
>
>
>
> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>
>
>
> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
> something like this:
>
>
>
>1. Buy a big CCR.
>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>
>
>
> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
>
> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>
>
>
> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>
>
>
> Batts, r

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[TJ Trout]

af11's are pretty cheap

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Jeff Broadwick - Lists 
wrote:

> In general, ePMP.
>
> Jeff Broadwick
> CTIconnect
> 312-205-2519 <(312)%20205-2519> Office
> 574-220-7826 <(574)%20220-7826> Cell
> jbroadw...@cticonnect.com
>
> On Feb 12, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?
>
> I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers.
>
> I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I didn’t
> like it when it first came out.
>
> *From:* Joe Novak
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>
> We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have
> vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some
> frequency separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's
> a purpose built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has
> the option to use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even
> better, I think it hit general availability.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
>> radios within 4 mile radius...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>
>>> All on the same tower, right?
>>>
>>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>>> *To:* Animal Farm
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>>
>>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs
>>> in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>>
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>>
 Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
 gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.

 Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
 coexist on a tower?
 Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
 routers.

>>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

[Layne Sisk]

Well stated Adam but with one modification, Real Choice pricing includes end 
user support in the price.

Layne Sisk
ServerPlus
801.426.8283, ext 102
[New logo xl]
[http://i.imgur.com/VOz763A.png]
[http://i.imgur.com/xvQYYWa.png]
[http://i.imgur.com/ELG0AB1.png]
[Utah 100]   [fast50-01] [Inc 5000]

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 8:44 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

Basically with Viva you're clearing $3/month as a reseller.  The customer is 
theirs; they do billing and support.  No local channels unless you're in NYC.

Real Choice TV is earning you more like $10/month, and the customer is yours; 
you do billing and support.  You're also not tied to their MSRP price since 
you're doing billing.  If your local market can bear an additional $5/month for 
a given package then you can make $15 instead of $10 (as an example).  If I 
feel their $99 MSRP plan is worth $119 in my area then I could make $30/month 
on that.  You DO get your local channels.  You can white label it for an 
additional one time fee.

Viva has NO barrier to entry.  You email the address on their website and 
they'll have you set up same day.

Real Choice has a significant cost barrier to entry.  It's not ridiculous, but 
you do have to pay something for setup, buy a server from them, and you have to 
peer with their network.

I think if you can afford to get in with Real Choice then you have a better 
product and you will make more money on it.


-- Original Message --
From: "Al Rachide" mailto:alrach...@gmail.com>>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/11/2018 7:29:43 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Viva Entertainment

Looking at OTTV on TDAmeritrade, it does not look like it will survive 
financially. Is there something there that I am missing? The idea sounds great 
for our area, especially the Latino side of the equation. Does OTTV have a WISP 
re-seller plan? If so, how do we get info on that?
Thanks,
Al Rachide
Eastern Carolina Broadband


[https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif]

Virus-free. 
www.avast.com

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Joe Novak]

More 25 subs per access point. Anywhere from 3mbit to 20mbit. Average user
with kids and that usually goes with the 10mbit plan.

Don't mistake it. It's definitely a wifi based radio. It works well for us
though. If we had the sort of density to warrant the 450 product line and
450M... I'm guessing we would be down that path instead.


On Feb 12, 2018 7:28 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.

So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you sell to those 25?

Packetflux GPS sync.

*From:* Joe Novak
*Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the
early days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are
having weird GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this
problem once in a while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though.
That is assuming density isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I don't
exactly have enough experience with it. Most of our APs are sitting right
around 25 customers, and according to airtime we still have quite a bit of
room.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On Rockets
> and Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on APs and on
> PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well since August of
> 2017 when I replaced all the radios on this network and have had to change
> them since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens and work with us on issues.
> The other one from El Paso uses my services once in a while and works with
> us as well.  Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still
> no issues. I used larger dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
> wrote:
>
>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
>> radios within 4 mile radius...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>
>>> All on the same tower, right?
>>>
>>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>>> *To:* Animal Farm
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>>
>>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs
>>> in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>>
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>>
 Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
 gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.

 Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
 coexist on a tower?
 Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
 routers.

>>>

Re: [AFMUG] Government Money

[Adam Moffett]

Dunno.  In our NY State grants there's supposed to be competition for 
the funding, so you are trying to get $/household at the right level 
where you have enough to complete the project, but you're also better 
looking than another applicant. Sometimes there isn't enough competition 
for it to matter, but they can still throw out applications that they 
think don't look right.


I've never been involved with USF or CAF.  I'm not sure how those work.


-- Original Message --
From: "Jon Langeler" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 9:28:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Government Money

Maybe I’m wrong. But if cost, but not ROI was the denominator, would 
you want to compromise on ‘2nd best’ system? They typically have bigger 
pockets...


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


On Feb 12, 2018, at 9:02 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:


This is the second comment today along these lines.
Why would I want to spend more if there's government funding?


-- Original Message --
From: "Jon Langeler" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 8:58:41 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Got ya. If he’s starting fresh, check out Mimosa also. Also consider 
AF11fx for backhaul at some point. I’m not sure I would recommend 450 
unless it’s a government funded situation.


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.

Re: [AFMUG] Government Money

[Jon Langeler]

Maybe I’m wrong. But if cost, but not ROI was the denominator, would you want 
to compromise on ‘2nd best’ system? They typically have bigger pockets...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


> On Feb 12, 2018, at 9:02 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> This is the second comment today along these lines.
> Why would I want to spend more if there's government funding? 
> 
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Jon Langeler" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 2/12/2018 8:58:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
> 
>> Got ya. If he’s starting fresh, check out Mimosa also. Also consider AF11fx 
>> for backhaul at some point. I’m not sure I would recommend 450 unless it’s a 
>> government funded situation. 
>> 
>> Jon Langeler
>> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[George Skorup]

But they work like crap a few feet apart when you're stuck in one rad 
center due to lack of front-end filtering and/or sync.


On 2/12/2018 7:50 PM, Adam Moffett wrote:
These days you have lots of 5.x ghz to work with.  You've got 5.1 
through 5.8 minus that chunk of TDWR that they took out of the middle.
Any products will coexist when you have that much room to spread them 
around.



-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>>
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 2/12/2018 6:32:04 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 
5.5 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him 
but he is gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points 
peacefully coexist on a tower?
Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home 
routers.

[AFMUG] Government Money

[Adam Moffett]

This is the second comment today along these lines.
Why would I want to spend more if there's government funding?


-- Original Message --
From: "Jon Langeler" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 8:58:41 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Got ya. If he’s starting fresh, check out Mimosa also. Also consider 
AF11fx for backhaul at some point. I’m not sure I would recommend 450 
unless it’s a government funded situation.


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Adam Moffett]

450 still does a few things that ePMP doesn't.
Plus there's that 14 chain MU-MIMO thing..ePMP will probably never 
have something like that.

UI is still sluggish on ePMP.

On the other hand ePMP has gotten so many feature improvements over 
these past few years that it's gotten really hard to argue with the 
value it provides.



-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 8:27:56 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp


The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.

So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you sell to 
those 25?


Packetflux GPS sync.

From:Joe Novak
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the 
early days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are 
having weird GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this 
problem once in a while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid 
though. That is assuming density isn't more then 25 per AP, because 
then I don't exactly have enough experience with it. Most of our APs 
are sitting right around 25 customers, and according to airtime we 
still have quite a bit of room.


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza 
 wrote:
I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On 
Rockets and Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on 
APs and on PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well 
since August of 2017 when I replaced all the radios on this network 
and have had to change them since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens 
and work with us on issues.  The other one from El Paso uses my 
services once in a while and works with us as well.  Texas Gas put up 
allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still no issues. I used larger 
dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.


Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza"  
wrote:
Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other 
radios within 4 mile radius...


Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

All on the same tower, right?

From:Jaime Solorza
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
To:Animal Farm
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 
APs in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...


Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 
5.5 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him 
but he is gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.


Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points 
peacefully coexist on a tower?
Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home 
routers.

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Jon Langeler]

Got ya. If he’s starting fresh, check out Mimosa also. Also consider AF11fx for 
backhaul at some point. I’m not sure I would recommend 450 unless it’s a 
government funded situation. 

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


> On Feb 12, 2018, at 6:49 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> I never use an AF5X anywhere.  I used Orthogon when they first came out and 
> had good luck.
>  
> From: Jon Langeler
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:47 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>  
> He’ll need some frequency separation. Hey I thought you would’ve know all 
> this stuff a long time ago? 
> 
> Jon Langeler
> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
>  
> 
>> On Feb 12, 2018, at 6:43 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>> 
>> All on the same tower, right?
>>  
>> From: Jaime Solorza
>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>> To: Animal Farm
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>  
>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in 
>> Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>  
>> Jaime Solorza
>>  
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>> Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 
>>> miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is 
>>> gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume. 
>>>  
>>> Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully 
>>> coexist on a tower?
>>> Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home routers. 

[AFMUG] Que pinchi suerte

[Jaime Solorza]

Oye Gino, que nuevas mamadas les paso otra vez con hece fuego en la
estacion! No se como los inutiles en la casa blanca pueden ser tan
desmadrosos..sigo rezando por todos en la Isla. .animo amigo...un saludo y
abrazo. Jaime

Jaime Solorza

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Jaime Solorza]

Epmp

Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 5:19 PM, "Jeff Broadwick - Lists"  wrote:

> In general, ePMP.
>
> Jeff Broadwick
> CTIconnect
> 312-205-2519 <(312)%20205-2519> Office
> 574-220-7826 <(574)%20220-7826> Cell
> jbroadw...@cticonnect.com
>
> On Feb 12, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?
>
> I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers.
>
> I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I didn’t
> like it when it first came out.
>
> *From:* Joe Novak
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>
> We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have
> vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some
> frequency separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's
> a purpose built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has
> the option to use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even
> better, I think it hit general availability.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
>> radios within 4 mile radius...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>
>>> All on the same tower, right?
>>>
>>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>>> *To:* Animal Farm
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>>
>>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs
>>> in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>>
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>>
 Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
 gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.

 Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
 coexist on a tower?
 Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
 routers.

>>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Adam Moffett]

These days you have lots of 5.x ghz to work with.  You've got 5.1 
through 5.8 minus that chunk of TDWR that they took out of the middle.
Any products will coexist when you have that much room to spread them 
around.



-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 6:32:04 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 
miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he 
is gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.


Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully 
coexist on a tower?
Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home 
routers.

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Chuck McCown]

The UI server was probably the worst I have ever seen.  

So, less than 25 subs per site, what speed packages do you sell to those 25?

Packetflux GPS sync.  

From: Joe Novak 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:20 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the early 
days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are having weird 
GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this problem once in a 
while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though. That is assuming density 
isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I don't exactly have enough experience 
with it. Most of our APs are sitting right around 25 customers, and according 
to airtime we still have quite a bit of room.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza  
wrote:

  I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On Rockets and 
Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on APs and on 
PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well since August of 2017 
when I replaced all the radios on this network and have had to change them 
since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens and work with us on issues.  The other 
one from El Paso uses my services once in a while and works with us as well.  
Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still no issues. I used 
larger dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.   


  Jaime Solorza

  On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza"  wrote:

Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other 
radios within 4 mile radius...


Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

  All on the same tower, right?

  From: Jaime Solorza 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
  To: Animal Farm 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

  Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in 
Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues... 

  Jaime Solorza

  On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 
miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is gonna 
want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.  

Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully 
coexist on a tower?
Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home 
routers.  

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Mathew Howard]

I would use ePMP. 450 is nice stuff, but I just can't see how I would
justify the cost over ePMP for something like that.

It'll co-exist with an AF-5x link just fine, as long as there's enough
frequency separation. Ideally, you just use the 5.15-5.25ghz range for one,
and 5.8ghz for the other... of course that doesn't always work out if you
have other noise to deal with.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?
>
> I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers.
>
> I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I didn’t
> like it when it first came out.
>
> *From:* Joe Novak
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>
> We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have
> vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some
> frequency separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's
> a purpose built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has
> the option to use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even
> better, I think it hit general availability.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
>> radios within 4 mile radius...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>
>>> All on the same tower, right?
>>>
>>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>>> *To:* Animal Farm
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>>
>>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs
>>> in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>>
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>>
 Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
 gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.

 Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
 coexist on a tower?
 Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
 routers.

>>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Rory Conaway]

How much bandwidth do you have to provide to the clients?

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Joe Novak
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 5:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the early 
days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are having weird 
GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this problem once in a 
while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though. That is assuming density 
isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I don't exactly have enough experience 
with it. Most of our APs are sitting right around 25 customers, and according 
to airtime we still have quite a bit of room.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza 
mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On Rockets and 
Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on APs and on 
PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well since August of 2017 
when I replaced all the radios on this network and have had to change them 
since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens and work with us on issues.  The other 
one from El Paso uses my services once in a while and works with us as well.  
Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still no issues. I used 
larger dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.
Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
mailto:losguyswirel...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other radios 
within 4 mile radius...
Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown" 
mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
All on the same tower, right?

From: Jaime Solorza
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
To: Animal Farm
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in 
Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...

Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown" 
mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 miles 
from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is gonna want 
to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.

Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully coexist 
on a tower?
Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home routers.

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Joe Novak]

What didn't you like about it? The interface came a long way since the
early days of EPMP. We've got quite a bit deployed. A lot of people are
having weird GPS situations come up with the on-board GPS, we have this
problem once in a while too. Our packetflux sites are rock solid though.
That is assuming density isn't more then 25 per AP, because then I don't
exactly have enough experience with it. Most of our APs are sitting right
around 25 customers, and according to airtime we still have quite a bit of
room.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:09 PM, Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On Rockets
> and Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on APs and on
> PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well since August of
> 2017 when I replaced all the radios on this network and have had to change
> them since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens and work with us on issues.
> The other one from El Paso uses my services once in a while and works with
> us as well.  Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still
> no issues. I used larger dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza" 
> wrote:
>
>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
>> radios within 4 mile radius...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>
>>> All on the same tower, right?
>>>
>>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>>> *To:* Animal Farm
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>>
>>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs
>>> in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>>
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>>
 Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
 gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.

 Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
 coexist on a tower?
 Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
 routers.

>>>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Jeff Broadwick - Lists]

In general, ePMP.

Jeff Broadwick
CTIconnect
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
jbroadw...@cticonnect.com

> On Feb 12, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?
>  
> I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers. 
>  
> I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I didn’t like 
> it when it first came out. 
>  
> From: Joe Novak
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>  
> We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have 
> vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some frequency 
> separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's a purpose 
> built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has the option to 
> use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even better, I think it 
> hit general availability.
>  
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza  
>> wrote:
>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other radios 
>> within 4 mile radius...
>> 
>> Jaime Solorza
>>  
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>> All on the same tower, right?
>>>  
>>> From: Jaime Solorza
>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>>> To: Animal Farm
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>>  
>>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in 
>>> Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>>  
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>  
 On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
 Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 
 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is 
 gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume. 
  
 Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points
 peacefully coexist on a tower?
 Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home routers. 
> 
>  

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Josh Baird]

50 customers over a cluster of 3-4APs?  ePMP 2000 for sure.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 7:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?
>
> I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers.
>
> I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I didn’t
> like it when it first came out.
>
> *From:* Joe Novak
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>
> We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have
> vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some
> frequency separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's
> a purpose built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has
> the option to use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even
> better, I think it hit general availability.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza 
> wrote:
>
>> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
>> radios within 4 mile radius...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>
>>> All on the same tower, right?
>>>
>>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>>> *To:* Animal Farm
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>>
>>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs
>>> in Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>>
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>>
 Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
 miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
 gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.

 Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
 coexist on a tower?
 Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
 routers.

>>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Jaime Solorza]

I separated frequencies to three I found cleanest on AFx5s...On Rockets and
Powerbeams I choose one frequency and shut off the rest on APs and on
PowerBeams I only use two...this method has worked well since August of
2017 when I replaced all the radios on this network and have had to change
them since.  Two of the WISPs live in Fabens and work with us on issues.
The other one from El Paso uses my services once in a while and works with
us as well.  Texas Gas put up allot of 5GHz units around Fabens but still
no issues. I used larger dishes at Wells and lift stations as well.

Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:50 PM, "Jaime Solorza"  wrote:

> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
> radios within 4 mile radius...
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>
>> All on the same tower, right?
>>
>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>> *To:* Animal Farm
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>
>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in
>> Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>
>>> Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
>>> miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
>>> gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
>>>
>>> Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
>>> coexist on a tower?
>>> Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
>>> routers.
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Chuck McCown]

So if y’all were helping a friend would you recommend 450 or ePMP?

I doubt he will ever have more than 50 customers.  

I have not had much experience with ePMP in the last 4 years.  I didn’t like it 
when it first came out.  

From: Joe Novak 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have vertical 
separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some frequency 
separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's a purpose 
built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has the option to 
use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even better, I think it hit 
general availability.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza  
wrote:

  Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other radios 
within 4 mile radius...


  Jaime Solorza

  On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

All on the same tower, right?

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in 
Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues... 

Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

  Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 
miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is gonna 
want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.  

  Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully 
coexist on a tower?
  Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home 
routers.  

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Joe Novak]

We have a few towers with AF5x and Cambium EPMP co-existing. Some have
vertical separation, some are grain elevators. Just gotta have some
frequency separation. I really like them. Latency under load is good, it's
a purpose built radio and I think it serves it's purpose well. If he has
the option to use the AF5XHD or whatever the naming convention is even
better, I think it hit general availability.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:50 PM, Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
> radios within 4 mile radius...
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>
>> All on the same tower, right?
>>
>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
>> *To:* Animal Farm
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>>
>> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in
>> Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>>
>>> Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
>>> miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
>>> gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
>>>
>>> Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
>>> coexist on a tower?
>>> Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
>>> routers.
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT


Gerard,

Not going to argue about that.  But there were several factors on our zhone equipment decision.  The main factor was when we started several years ago, those super cheap options didn't exist.  Not to mention we didn't have time to experiment.  A secondary factor was their location.  The have a manufacturing plant about an hour away from us.  To be 100% honest, we didn't know what the hell we were getting ourselves into when we started.  The security blanket of having zhone engineers that close to us to help us with any issues was very appealing.  We never have had to have an engineer come by, but I have used the phone support many of times.  Sometimes it was their issue, other mine.  But either way it was usually fixed within a day.  I'm to the point now, I just want crap to work.  If it doesn't work I want some guidance on how to make it work.  I'm getting lazy in my old age.  If I was 15 years younger and just starting out, I think I would give the ZTE stuff a try.  But we are all in on zhone, it works very well and I get the support I need to make me less grumpy over time.

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 6:22:35 PM, you wrote:





Mark,

I'm willing to bet that ZTE or Huawei has more installed units than Zhone does by several orders of magnitude. Plus with the prices so cheap you can afford to have spares of everything.

Chuck,

I didn't see your detailed numbers for the AE deployment. What equipment are you using for that? Don't forget about space/power/cooling requirements for AE.

This C320 shelf only sips about 100 watts with 7-8 olt ports enabled.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:




It is $65 vs my $100 for AE.  
 
So I have to spend $35 more. But I get AE.
And AE is much simpler.  
Arguably better too.  
 
There is so much cost in construction saving $35/customer is getting into that region of diminishing returns.  
 
Perhaps in a year I may change my mind.  
 
From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:58 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
 
Chuck,

But do you really need to get the cost down that low?  I will admit and most people on this list that know me will agree, I'm a cheap SOB.  But, there is a point where it is worth paying a bit more up front in order to sleep better at night.

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 4:51:32 PM, you wrote:





That is some scary Bernie Madoff type of pricing.  

You are using this now?

From: Gerard Dupont
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Here's some pricing based on Chinese ZTE with no real support.

ZTE F601 Indoor ONU 1 GE port. $24 http://sweetplaza.com/zte-gpon-terminal-ont-zxa10-f601-or-zxhn-f601-ftth-or-ftto-gpon-onu-with-one-ethernet-port-smaller-size_p1013.html
ZTE F623 Indoor ONU 1GE 3FE 1POTS $29 http://sweetplaza.com/sc-apc-original-zte-zxhn-f623-gpon-onu-1ge-3fe-lan-ports-1voice-port-wifienglish-interface_p1206.html
Chinese Splice on connector $0.80 http://sweetplaza.com/c/connector_0391
30M Armored simplex pigtail $9.66 from FS https://www.fs.com/products/20745.html
20M $7.66
10M $5.66
Wall Mount MultiLink/Tii Outdoor NID - $15 (I don't have link)

ZTE C320 OLT 16 ports of gpon with class c+ optics. $2200 $2200/16/32=$4.30/per customer at 100% utilization..
Add another 16 ports with optics for only $590. that's 32*32=1024 customers potentially. $2.75/per customer at 100% util.

32 port rackmount splitter. $84 https://www.fs.com/products/11948.html
32 port bare splitter for splice case $14 https://www.fs.com/products/11528.html
8 port bare splitter for splice case $5

None of that includes shipping or import duties/fees. So figure in a few hundred $$$ for shipping/import fees.

Even if you only put 8 people per OLT port that's $2800/32/8=$11 per customer. + $1 per port on a 1x8 PLC + $15 for NID + $29 for ONT with POTS + $10 for 30M pigtail. = ~$65/customer all in for gpon with 8 customers per port.

You can use www.SmartOLT.com for web based OLT/ONU management/monitoring (tell Adrian I sent you for a discount)

I prefer using GPON for the management capabilities. You can always overlay 10GPON on top of your regular GPON network when the time comes to upgrade. Just add/change the card in the OLT and add a 2x1 splitter to combine both OLT ports into the single fiber. Since they use different wavelengths they will coexist over the same fiber. Just install new ONT's.

Gerard


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:32 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:






ONT Housing (Clam Shell)

$           29.00 


ONT

$         215.00 


Unicam

$           15.00 


Cyber Power

$           81.00 


Cyber Install

$         110.00

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Jaime Solorza]

Two AF5x on same tower, One AP on second tower 20 ft away...all other
radios within 4 mile radius...

Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:43 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> All on the same tower, right?
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
> *To:* Animal Farm
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>
> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in
> Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>
>> Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
>> miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
>> gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
>>
>> Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
>> coexist on a tower?
>> Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
>> routers.
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Chuck McCown]

I never use an AF5X anywhere.  I used Orthogon when they first came out and had 
good luck. 

From: Jon Langeler 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:47 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

He’ll need some frequency separation. Hey I thought you would’ve know all this 
stuff a long time ago? 


Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


On Feb 12, 2018, at 6:43 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:


  All on the same tower, right?

  From: Jaime Solorza 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
  To: Animal Farm 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

  Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in 
Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues... 

  Jaime Solorza

  On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 
miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is gonna 
want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.  

Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully 
coexist on a tower?
Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home routers.  

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Jon Langeler]

He’ll need some frequency separation. Hey I thought you would’ve know all this 
stuff a long time ago? 

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


> On Feb 12, 2018, at 6:43 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> All on the same tower, right?
>  
> From: Jaime Solorza
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
> To: Animal Farm
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp
>  
> Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in 
> Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...
>  
> Jaime Solorza
>  
>> On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:
>> Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 miles 
>> from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is gonna 
>> want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume. 
>>  
>> Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully 
>> coexist on a tower?
>> Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home routers. 

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Chuck McCown]

All on the same tower, right?

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:41 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in 
Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues... 

Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

  Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 miles 
from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is gonna want 
to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.  

  Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully 
coexist on a tower?
  Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home routers.  

Re: [AFMUG] mini wisp

[Jaime Solorza]

Yes..I have two AF5X links as PTP and 25 radios all in 5 GHz off 4 APs in
Fabens, Texas sharing spectrum with 3 WISPs...no issues...

Jaime Solorza

On Feb 12, 2018 4:32 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5
> miles from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is
> gonna want to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.
>
> Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully
> coexist on a tower?
> Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home
> routers.
>

[AFMUG] mini wisp

[Chuck McCown]

Talking to a friend that wants to build a small wisp.  He is about 5.5 miles 
from a backbone connection.  I would suggest AF5X to him but he is gonna want 
to use 5 GHz for his wisp I presume.  

Can an AF5X and some 5 GHz cambium (or others) access points peacefully coexist 
on a tower?
Very rural area.  Not expecting much interference other than home routers.  

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Gerard Dupont]

Mark,

I'm willing to bet that ZTE or Huawei has more installed units than Zhone
does by several orders of magnitude. Plus with the prices so cheap you can
afford to have spares of everything.

Chuck,

I didn't see your detailed numbers for the AE deployment. What equipment
are you using for that? Don't forget about space/power/cooling requirements
for AE.

This C320 shelf only sips about 100 watts with 7-8 olt ports enabled.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> It is $65 vs my $100 for AE.
>
> So I have to spend $35 more. But I get AE.
> And AE is much simpler.
> Arguably better too.
>
> There is so much cost in construction saving $35/customer is getting into
> that region of diminishing returns.
>
> Perhaps in a year I may change my mind.
>
> *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 3:58 PM
> *To:* Chuck McCown
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> Chuck,
>
> But do you really need to get the cost down that low?  I will admit and
> most people on this list that know me will agree, I'm a cheap SOB.  But,
> there is a point where it is worth paying a bit more up front in order to
> sleep better at night.
>
>
>
> *-- Best regards,Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc.*www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *--Monday, February 12, 2018, 4:51:32 PM, you wrote:*
>
> That is some scary Bernie Madoff type of pricing.
>
> You are using this now?
>
> *From:* Gerard Dupont
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:28 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> Here's some pricing based on Chinese ZTE with no real support.
>
> ZTE F601 Indoor ONU 1 GE port. $24 http://sweetplaza.com/zte-
> gpon-terminal-ont-zxa10-f601-or-zxhn-f601-ftth-or-ftto-
> gpon-onu-with-one-ethernet-port-smaller-size_p1013.html
> ZTE F623 Indoor ONU 1GE 3FE 1POTS $29 http://sweetplaza.com/sc-apc-
> original-zte-zxhn-f623-gpon-onu-1ge-3fe-lan-ports-1voice-
> port-wifienglish-interface_p1206.html
> Chinese Splice on connector $0.80 http://sweetplaza.com/c/connector_0391
> 30M Armored simplex pigtail $9.66 from FS https://www.fs.com/products/
> 20745.html
> 20M $7.66
> 10M $5.66
> Wall Mount MultiLink/Tii Outdoor NID - $15 (I don't have link)
>
> ZTE C320 OLT 16 ports of gpon with class c+ optics. $2200
> $2200/16/32=$4.30/per customer at 100% utilization..
> Add another 16 ports with optics for only $590. that's 32*32=1024
> customers potentially. $2.75/per customer at 100% util.
>
> 32 port rackmount splitter. $84 https://www.fs.com/products/11948.html
> 32 port bare splitter for splice case $14 https://www.fs.com/products/
> 11528.html
> 8 port bare splitter for splice case $5
>
> None of that includes shipping or import duties/fees. So figure in a few
> hundred $$$ for shipping/import fees.
>
> Even if you only put 8 people per OLT port that's $2800/32/8=$11 per
> customer. + $1 per port on a 1x8 PLC + $15 for NID + $29 for ONT with POTS
> + $10 for 30M pigtail. = ~$65/customer all in for gpon with 8 customers per
> port.
>
> You can use www.SmartOLT.com for web based OLT/ONU management/monitoring
> (tell Adrian I sent you for a discount)
>
> I prefer using GPON for the management capabilities. You can always
> overlay 10GPON on top of your regular GPON network when the time comes to
> upgrade. Just add/change the card in the OLT and add a 2x1 splitter to
> combine both OLT ports into the single fiber. Since they use different
> wavelengths they will coexist over the same fiber. Just install new ONT's.
>
> Gerard
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:32 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
> ONT Housing (Clam Shell)
> $   29.00
> ONT
> $ 215.00
> Unicam
> $   15.00
> Cyber Power
> $   81.00
> Cyber Install
> $ 110.00
> House Sub Total
> *$ 450.00 *
> OLT $11K/8/32
> $   42.97
> OIM $845/32
> $   38.27
> Splitter $900/32
> $   39.43
> DLC per Sub Subtotal
> *$ 120.67 *
> Electronics/Sub Total Expense
> *$ 570.67 *
>
>
> *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
> *To:* Chuck McCown
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> Chuck,
>
> Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser and a
> 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.
>
>
> So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 per
> user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for
> electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But,
> we are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we
> are debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure
> Chuck has some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any
> type of major upgrade for several years.
>
> But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to make
> sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not to
> mention, you can run both

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Chuck McCown]

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLTIt is $65 vs my $100 for AE.  

So I have to spend $35 more. But I get AE.
And AE is much simpler.  
Arguably better too.  

There is so much cost in construction saving $35/customer is getting into that 
region of diminishing returns.  

Perhaps in a year I may change my mind.  

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:58 PM
To: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

But do you really need to get the cost down that low?  I will admit and most 
people on this list that know me will agree, I'm a cheap SOB.  But, there is a 
point where it is worth paying a bit more up front in order to sleep better at 
night.

-- 
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 4:51:32 PM, you wrote:


 That is some scary Bernie Madoff type of pricing.  

  You are using this now?

  From: Gerard Dupont
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:28 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  Here's some pricing based on Chinese ZTE with no real support.

  ZTE F601 Indoor ONU 1 GE port. $24 
http://sweetplaza.com/zte-gpon-terminal-ont-zxa10-f601-or-zxhn-f601-ftth-or-ftto-gpon-onu-with-one-ethernet-port-smaller-size_p1013.html
  ZTE F623 Indoor ONU 1GE 3FE 1POTS $29 
http://sweetplaza.com/sc-apc-original-zte-zxhn-f623-gpon-onu-1ge-3fe-lan-ports-1voice-port-wifienglish-interface_p1206.html
  Chinese Splice on connector $0.80 http://sweetplaza.com/c/connector_0391
  30M Armored simplex pigtail $9.66 from FS 
https://www.fs.com/products/20745.html
  20M $7.66
  10M $5.66
  Wall Mount MultiLink/Tii Outdoor NID - $15 (I don't have link)

  ZTE C320 OLT 16 ports of gpon with class c+ optics. $2200 
$2200/16/32=$4.30/per customer at 100% utilization..
  Add another 16 ports with optics for only $590. that's 32*32=1024 
customers potentially. $2.75/per customer at 100% util.

  32 port rackmount splitter. $84 https://www.fs.com/products/11948.html
  32 port bare splitter for splice case $14 
https://www.fs.com/products/11528.html
  8 port bare splitter for splice case $5

  None of that includes shipping or import duties/fees. So figure in a few 
hundred $$$ for shipping/import fees.

  Even if you only put 8 people per OLT port that's $2800/32/8=$11 per 
customer. + $1 per port on a 1x8 PLC + $15 for NID + $29 for ONT with POTS + 
$10 for 30M pigtail. = ~$65/customer all in for gpon with 8 customers per port.

  You can use www.SmartOLT.com for web based OLT/ONU management/monitoring 
(tell Adrian I sent you for a discount)

  I prefer using GPON for the management capabilities. You can always 
overlay 10GPON on top of your regular GPON network when the time comes to 
upgrade. Just add/change the card in the OLT and add a 2x1 splitter to combine 
both OLT ports into the single fiber. Since they use different wavelengths they 
will coexist over the same fiber. Just install new ONT's.

  Gerard


  On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:32 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

   ONT Housing (Clam Shell) $   29.00  
  ONT $ 215.00  
  Unicam $   15.00  
  Cyber Power $   81.00  
  Cyber Install $ 110.00  
  House Sub Total $ 450.00  
  
  OLT $11K/8/32 $   42.97  
  OIM $845/32 $   38.27  
  Splitter $900/32 $   39.43  
  DLC per Sub Subtotal $ 120.67  
  
  
  Electronics/Sub Total Expense $ 570.67  


From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class 
laser and a 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.


So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about 
$62 per user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for 
electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But, we 
are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we are 
debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure Chuck has 
some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any type of major 
upgrade for several years.

But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need 
to make sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not 
to mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently have 2 
customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON side.

-- 
Best regards,
Mark 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Sterling Jacobson]

This is my trace route to 8.8.8.8 by the way

C:\Users\Sterling>tracert 8.8.8.8

Tracing route to google-public-dns-a.google.com [8.8.8.8]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1<1 ms<1 ms<1 ms  108-165-31-1.avative.net [108.165.31.1]
  2<1 ms<1 ms<1 ms  tg1-8--200.br01.lsan.acedc.net [69.27.173.37]
  320 ms20 ms20 ms  ve131.br01.snju.acedc.net [199.58.196.114]
  420 ms20 ms20 ms  eqixsj-google-gige.google.com [206.223.116.21]
  520 ms20 ms20 ms  108.170.242.225
  620 ms20 ms20 ms  216.239.46.51
  720 ms20 ms20 ms  google-public-dns-a.google.com [8.8.8.8]

Trace complete.

It goes from my router to my upstream router to their other router then to 
google.
The rest is inside google network itself.

Works great as long as they don’t have an issue, which is about once a year for 
a few minutes at a time.

I need to move off and get my own servers on a VM soon.

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:13 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

If 8.8.8.8 isn't available to the closest node as a local network, you're not 
using it.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]
The Brothers WISP
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png][http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]




From: "Sterling Jacobson" mailto:sterl...@avative.net>>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:09:33 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
I think that was me you asked about those three items.

AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.

I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it 
‘applies’.

I do like redundancy though.

So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are relatively 
cheap.

With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping, I 
just shape at the CPE or switch port.

So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a SFP 
switch and two CCR routers.
I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those running 
VRRP between them works great.
Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have ‘standard’ 
redundancy.

Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units, and 
have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.

They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between them 
to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.

Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.

Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.

I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.

I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track of 
power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.

That’s about it.

Rinse, repeat.






From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes.
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.

Considering a minimal NOC build.

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:


  1.  Buy a big CCR.
  2.  Hire Linktechs to configure it.
  3.  Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Eric Kuhnke]

Seconding pretty much everything Dennis just said. One additional thing to
consider:

Having access to debug-level log files for every DNS query can be one quick
and highly effective method of identifying an individual customer/CPE that
has something virus/worm/trojan compromised on their home network. Not
saying you should blackhole DNS stuff but rather use the logs as one of a
set of diagnostic tools when you see suspicious traffic from a less than
technically clueful customer.



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Dennis Burgess 
wrote:

> I would not state that 8.8.8.8 or any of the public DNS servers out there
> that state that you can use their DNS servers are bad.  However, think of
> these two issues:
>
>
>
> 1.What happens when that DNS server returns answers (still
> responds), just it takes 6000 ms to do so. ?  Who do you contact?
>
> 2.   If you are not paying for it, then what kind of influence can
> you have on it?   I look at Google. Is google within your circle of
> influence?   No?  You can’t pick up the phone and call them, you can barely
> find an e-mail to email them?   And even if you could call them, you are
> not paying them anything, why do they care what is occurring? They don’t!
>
>
>
> DNS is a required function to work on-line, simple as that, if its slow,
> etc., then it’s your service that’s slow not the DNS servers, hence, why
> you need a fast responding DNS server.
>
>
>
> In this case, using your upstream and caching at the MT is most likely
> fine and if you wish to put on a full blown DNS server, then you can do so
> at minimal cost, but don’t use something that you can’t influence.  I can
> tell people how many times I have found issues with DNS that they don’t own
> or control; and have little to say about how it operates..   Its wayyy to
> often.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dennis Burgess
>
> www.linktechs.net – 314-735-0270 x103 <(314)%20735-0270> –
> dmburg...@linktechs.net
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Sterling Jacobson
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 3:10 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
>
>
> I think that was me you asked about those three items.
>
>
>
> AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.
>
>
>
> I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it
> ‘applies’.
>
>
>
> I do like redundancy though.
>
>
>
> So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are
> relatively cheap.
>
>
>
> With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping,
> I just shape at the CPE or switch port.
>
>
>
> So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a
> SFP switch and two CCR routers.
>
> I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those
> running VRRP between them works great.
>
> Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have
> ‘standard’ redundancy.
>
>
>
> Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units,
> and have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.
>
>
>
> They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between
> them to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.
>
>
>
> Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.
>
>
>
> Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.
>
>
>
> I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.
>
>
>
> I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track
> of power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.
>
>
>
> That’s about it.
>
>
>
> Rinse, repeat.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] *On
> Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
>
>
> Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...
>
>
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
>
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
>
>
> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
> or so homes.
>
> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
> expertise.
>
>
>
> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>
>
>
> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
> something like this:
>
>
>
>1. Buy a big CCR.
>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>
>
>
> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
>
> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>
>
>
> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>
>
>
> Batts, rectifier, cooling.
>
>
>
> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Gerard Dupont]

Chuck,

Yeah, We have 6 OLT's and a few hundred ONU's online. I know of
several other operators using the same setup now too.

It's stable and just works. The OLT hardware feels solid and quality made
unlike some of the other 1U OLT's we've tried.

You can even get an outdoor cabinet made for them for about $1500 shipped.
I can't find the ZTE link right now, but it is very similar to this Huawei
version. https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Original-
Huawei-MA5608T-ZTE-C320-Outdoors_60442562681.html?spm=
a2700.7724838.2017115.1.2d7a50d9frcsQx

Gerard

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> That is some scary Bernie Madoff type of pricing.
>
> You are using this now?
>
> *From:* Gerard Dupont
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 2:28 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> Here's some pricing based on Chinese ZTE with no real support.
>
> ZTE F601 Indoor ONU 1 GE port. $24 http://sweetplaza.com/zte-gpon
> -terminal-ont-zxa10-f601-or-zxhn-f601-ftth-or-ftto-gpon-
> onu-with-one-ethernet-port-smaller-size_p1013.html
> ZTE F623 Indoor ONU 1GE 3FE 1POTS $29 http://sweetplaza.com/sc-apc-o
> riginal-zte-zxhn-f623-gpon-onu-1ge-3fe-lan-ports-1voice-port
> -wifienglish-interface_p1206.html
> Chinese Splice on connector $0.80 http://sweetplaza.com/c/connector_0391
> 30M Armored simplex pigtail $9.66 from FS https://www.fs.com/products/
> 20745.html
> 20M $7.66
> 10M $5.66
> Wall Mount MultiLink/Tii Outdoor NID - $15 (I don't have link)
>
> ZTE C320 OLT 16 ports of gpon with class c+ optics. $2200
> $2200/16/32=$4.30/per customer at 100% utilization..
> Add another 16 ports with optics for only $590. that's 32*32=1024
> customers potentially. $2.75/per customer at 100% util.
>
> 32 port rackmount splitter. $84 https://www.fs.com/products/11948.html
> 32 port bare splitter for splice case $14 https://www.fs.com/products/
> 11528.html
> 8 port bare splitter for splice case $5
>
> None of that includes shipping or import duties/fees. So figure in a few
> hundred $$$ for shipping/import fees.
>
> Even if you only put 8 people per OLT port that's $2800/32/8=$11 per
> customer. + $1 per port on a 1x8 PLC + $15 for NID + $29 for ONT with POTS
> + $10 for 30M pigtail. = ~$65/customer all in for gpon with 8 customers per
> port.
>
> You can use www.SmartOLT.com for web based OLT/ONU management/monitoring
> (tell Adrian I sent you for a discount)
>
> I prefer using GPON for the management capabilities. You can always
> overlay 10GPON on top of your regular GPON network when the time comes to
> upgrade. Just add/change the card in the OLT and add a 2x1 splitter to
> combine both OLT ports into the single fiber. Since they use different
> wavelengths they will coexist over the same fiber. Just install new ONT's.
>
> Gerard
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:32 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> ONT Housing (Clam Shell)  $   29.00
>> ONT  $ 215.00
>> Unicam  $   15.00
>> Cyber Power  $   81.00
>> Cyber Install  $ 110.00
>> House Sub Total * $ 450.00 *
>>
>> OLT $11K/8/32  $   42.97
>> OIM $845/32  $   38.27
>> Splitter $900/32  $   39.43
>> DLC per Sub Subtotal * $ 120.67 *
>>
>>
>> Electronics/Sub Total Expense * $ 570.67 *
>>
>>
>> *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
>> *To:* Chuck McCown
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>> Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser and
>> a 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.
>>
>>
>> So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 per
>> user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for
>> electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But,
>> we are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we
>> are debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure
>> Chuck has some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any
>> type of major upgrade for several years.
>>
>> But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to
>> make sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not
>> to mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently have 2
>> customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON side.
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- Best regards,Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>>
>>
>> *Myakka Technologies, Inc.*www.MyakkaTech.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *--Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:*
>>
>> When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested in cpe
>> electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and outdoor
>> cabinets.
>>
>> When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per customer.
>> For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time convincing myself
>> to do PON.
>>
>> *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
>> *Sent:* Monday, Februar

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT


Chuck,

But do you really need to get the cost down that low?  I will admit and most people on this list that know me will agree, I'm a cheap SOB.  But, there is a point where it is worth paying a bit more up front in order to sleep better at night.

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 4:51:32 PM, you wrote:





That is some scary Bernie Madoff type of pricing.  
 
You are using this now?
 
From: Gerard Dupont
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
 
Here's some pricing based on Chinese ZTE with no real support.
 
ZTE F601 Indoor ONU 1 GE port. $24 http://sweetplaza.com/zte-gpon-terminal-ont-zxa10-f601-or-zxhn-f601-ftth-or-ftto-gpon-onu-with-one-ethernet-port-smaller-size_p1013.html
ZTE F623 Indoor ONU 1GE 3FE 1POTS $29 http://sweetplaza.com/sc-apc-original-zte-zxhn-f623-gpon-onu-1ge-3fe-lan-ports-1voice-port-wifienglish-interface_p1206.html
Chinese Splice on connector $0.80 http://sweetplaza.com/c/connector_0391
30M Armored simplex pigtail $9.66 from FS https://www.fs.com/products/20745.html
20M $7.66
10M $5.66
Wall Mount MultiLink/Tii Outdoor NID - $15 (I don't have link)
 
ZTE C320 OLT 16 ports of gpon with class c+ optics. $2200 $2200/16/32=$4.30/per customer at 100% utilization..
Add another 16 ports with optics for only $590. that's 32*32=1024 customers potentially. $2.75/per customer at 100% util.
 
32 port rackmount splitter. $84 https://www.fs.com/products/11948.html
32 port bare splitter for splice case $14 https://www.fs.com/products/11528.html
8 port bare splitter for splice case $5
 
None of that includes shipping or import duties/fees. So figure in a few hundred $$$ for shipping/import fees.
 
Even if you only put 8 people per OLT port that's $2800/32/8=$11 per customer. + $1 per port on a 1x8 PLC + $15 for NID + $29 for ONT with POTS + $10 for 30M pigtail. = ~$65/customer all in for gpon with 8 customers per port.
 
You can use www.SmartOLT.com for web based OLT/ONU management/monitoring (tell Adrian I sent you for a discount)
 
I prefer using GPON for the management capabilities. You can always overlay 10GPON on top of your regular GPON network when the time comes to upgrade. Just add/change the card in the OLT and add a 2x1 splitter to combine both OLT ports into the single fiber. Since they use different wavelengths they will coexist over the same fiber. Just install new ONT's.
 
Gerard
 
 
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:32 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:






ONT Housing (Clam Shell)

 $           29.00 


ONT

 $         215.00 


Unicam

 $           15.00 


Cyber Power

 $           81.00 


Cyber Install

 $         110.00 


House Sub Total

 $         450.00 


 

 


OLT $11K/8/32

 $           42.97 


OIM $845/32

 $           38.27 


Splitter $900/32

 $           39.43 


DLC per Sub Subtotal

 $         120.67 


 

 


 

 


Electronics/Sub Total Expense

 $         570.67 


 
 
From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
 
Chuck,

Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser and a 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.


So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 per user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But, we are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we are debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure Chuck has some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any type of major upgrade for several years.

But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to make sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not to mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently have 2 customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON side.

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:





When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested in cpe electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and outdoor cabinets.  

When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per customer.  
For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time convincing myself to do PON.  

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 11:09 AM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

PLC splitter in spice case doing full fusion splicing.

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 12:09:32 PM, you wrote:





Are you using splitters in splic

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Chuck McCown]

I called Mr. Google at home once, at first they wouldn’t let me talk to him but 
I explained that our DNS was very slow, finally his housekeeper took the 
wireless phone out to the pool and he took a few minutes to listen to me.  I 
wasn’t sure he was really listening to my bitching but it started working later 
in the day.  So I guess he asked someone to look at it.  I think I still have 
that matchbook with his number in it...

From: Dennis Burgess 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:35 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

I would not state that 8.8.8.8 or any of the public DNS servers out there that 
state that you can use their DNS servers are bad.  However, think of these two 
issues:

 

1.   What happens when that DNS server returns answers (still responds), 
just it takes 6000 ms to do so. ?  Who do you contact?

2.   If you are not paying for it, then what kind of influence can you have 
on it?   I look at Google. Is google within your circle of influence?   No?  
You can’t pick up the phone and call them, you can barely find an e-mail to 
email them?   And even if you could call them, you are not paying them 
anything, why do they care what is occurring? They don’t!  

 

DNS is a required function to work on-line, simple as that, if its slow, etc., 
then it’s your service that’s slow not the DNS servers, hence, why you need a 
fast responding DNS server.

 

In this case, using your upstream and caching at the MT is most likely fine and 
if you wish to put on a full blown DNS server, then you can do so at minimal 
cost, but don’t use something that you can’t influence.  I can tell people how 
many times I have found issues with DNS that they don’t own or control; and 
have little to say about how it operates..   Its wayyy to often.  

 

 

Dennis Burgess

www.linktechs.net – 314-735-0270 x103 – dmburg...@linktechs.net 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:10 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

 

I think that was me you asked about those three items.

 

AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.

 

I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it 
‘applies’.

 

I do like redundancy though.

 

So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are relatively 
cheap.

 

With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping, I 
just shape at the CPE or switch port.

 

So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a SFP 
switch and two CCR routers.

I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those running 
VRRP between them works great.

Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have ‘standard’ 
redundancy.

 

Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units, and 
have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.

 

They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between them 
to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.

 

Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.

 

Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.

 

I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.

 

I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track of 
power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.

 

That’s about it.

 

Rinse, repeat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

 

Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

 

From: Chuck McCown 

Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

 

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes.  

I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

 

Considering a minimal NOC build.  

 

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:

 

  1.. Buy a big CCR. 
  2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
  3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  
 

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?

But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

 

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

 

Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

 

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

 

 

 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Dave]

10-4
+1

I have always had 3 DNS servers to have influence on. I found that 
things do move quickly when using our dns and populate much more

reliably.

I have never used mikrotik to do a recursive dns so I dont know real 
world cpu hits.



On 02/12/2018 04:35 PM, Dennis Burgess wrote:


I would not state that 8.8.8.8 or any of the public DNS servers out 
there that state that you can use their DNS servers are bad.  However, 
think of these two issues:


1. What happens when that DNS server returns answers (still responds), 
just it takes 6000 ms to do so. ?  Who do you contact?


2.If you are not paying for it, then what kind of influence can you 
have on it?   I look at Google. Is google within your circle of 
influence?   No? You can’t pick up the phone and call them, you can 
barely find an e-mail to email them?   And even if you could call 
them, you are not paying them anything, why do they care what is 
occurring? They don’t!


DNS is a required function to work on-line, simple as that, if its 
slow, etc., then it’s your service that’s slow not the DNS servers, 
hence, why you need a fast responding DNS server. **


In this case, using your upstream and caching at the MT is most likely 
fine and if you wish to put on a full blown DNS server, then you can 
do so at minimal cost, but don’t use something that you can’t 
influence.  I can tell people how many times I have found issues with 
DNS that they don’t own or control; and have little to say about how 
it operates..   Its wayyy to often.


Dennis Burgess

www.linktechs.net  – 314-735-0270 x103 – 
dmburg...@linktechs.net 


*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Sterling Jacobson
*Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 3:10 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

I think that was me you asked about those three items.

AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.

I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so 
it ‘applies’.


I do like redundancy though.

So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are 
relatively cheap.


With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth 
shaping, I just shape at the CPE or switch port.


So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then 
get a SFP switch and two CCR routers.


I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those 
running VRRP between them works great.


Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have 
‘standard’ redundancy.


Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR 
units, and have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.


They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc 
between them to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.


Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.

Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.

I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.

I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep 
track of power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.


That’s about it.

Rinse, repeat.

*From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

*From:*Chuck McCown

*Sent:*Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM

*To:*af@afmug.com 

*Subject:*[AFMUG] ISP in a box

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their 
hundred or so homes.


I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require 
some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of 
expertise.


Considering a minimal NOC build.

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their 
answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went 
something like this:


 1. Buy a big CCR.
 2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
 3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?

But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.



--

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Dennis Burgess]

I would not state that 8.8.8.8 or any of the public DNS servers out there that 
state that you can use their DNS servers are bad.  However, think of these two 
issues:


1.What happens when that DNS server returns answers (still responds), 
just it takes 6000 ms to do so. ?  Who do you contact?

2.   If you are not paying for it, then what kind of influence can you have 
on it?   I look at Google. Is google within your circle of influence?   No?  
You can’t pick up the phone and call them, you can barely find an e-mail to 
email them?   And even if you could call them, you are not paying them 
anything, why do they care what is occurring? They don’t!

DNS is a required function to work on-line, simple as that, if its slow, etc., 
then it’s your service that’s slow not the DNS servers, hence, why you need a 
fast responding DNS server.

In this case, using your upstream and caching at the MT is most likely fine and 
if you wish to put on a full blown DNS server, then you can do so at minimal 
cost, but don’t use something that you can’t influence.  I can tell people how 
many times I have found issues with DNS that they don’t own or control; and 
have little to say about how it operates..   Its wayyy to often.


Dennis Burgess
www.linktechs.net – 314-735-0270 x103 – 
dmburg...@linktechs.net

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:10 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

I think that was me you asked about those three items.

AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.

I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it 
‘applies’.

I do like redundancy though.

So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are relatively 
cheap.

With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping, I 
just shape at the CPE or switch port.

So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a SFP 
switch and two CCR routers.
I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those running 
VRRP between them works great.
Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have ‘standard’ 
redundancy.

Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units, and 
have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.

They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between them 
to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.

Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.

Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.

I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.

I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track of 
power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.

That’s about it.

Rinse, repeat.






From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes.
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.

Considering a minimal NOC build.

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:


  1.  Buy a big CCR.
  2.  Hire Linktechs to configure it.
  3.  Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Mike Hammett]

Stop that. 

https://2rdrtx4bt29lo91s31mjhkji-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/newspaper-rolled-up-as-a-weapon.jpg
 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Jon Langeler"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 4:04:58 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 

It will work fine. Use a 2nd diverse as well... 



Jon Langeler 
Michwave Technologies, Inc. 



On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Chuck McCown < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 







Guess I don’t need DNS. 8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy... 




From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 




Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes. 
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area. It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise. 

Considering a minimal NOC build. 

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer. 
Not sure if asked on the list or not. But the answer went something like this: 


1. Buy a big CCR. 
2. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll. 


I am sure I would need at least one server. DHCP, NAT, DNS? 
But can all of that be provided by the CCR? 

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created? 

Batts, rectifier, cooling. 

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street. 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Jon Langeler]

It will work fine. Use a 2nd diverse as well...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Technologies, Inc.


> On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> 
> Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...
>  
> From: Chuck McCown
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>  
> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or 
> so homes. 
> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
> build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise. 
>  
> Considering a minimal NOC build. 
>  
> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
> Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like 
> this:
>  
> Buy a big CCR.
> Hire Linktechs to configure it.
> Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll. 
>  
> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>  
> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>  
> Batts, rectifier, cooling. 
>  
> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street. 
>  
>  
>  

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Chuck McCown]

I will listen to Dennis and most likely do what he recommends which will 
probably incorporate your suggestions and what Sterling suggested.  If the rack 
space at the data center is free, I will put them and whatever servers are 
needed there.  If not it goes in that snow covered box on the side of the 
highway.  

From: Dave 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:50 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

CCR I think would do the trick but I would have 2 for fail over 
Or I would do a PowerV4 from linktechs with failover ccr1236 
Let the mikrotiks handle your nat and DHCP
DNS I would do on a x86 box 



On 02/12/2018 01:59 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

  Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or 
so homes.� 
  I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.� It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.� 
  �
  Considering a minimal NOC build.� 
  �
  I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their 
answer.� Not sure if asked on the list or not.� But the answer went 
something like this:
  �
1.. Buy a big CCR. 
2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.� 
  �
  I am sure I would need at least one server.� DHCP, NAT, DNS?
  But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
  �
  What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
  �
  Batts, rectifier, cooling.� 
  �
  I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.� 
  �
  �
  �


-- 

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Chuck McCown]

That is some scary Bernie Madoff type of pricing.  

You are using this now?

From: Gerard Dupont 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Here's some pricing based on Chinese ZTE with no real support.


ZTE F601 Indoor ONU 1 GE port. $24 
http://sweetplaza.com/zte-gpon-terminal-ont-zxa10-f601-or-zxhn-f601-ftth-or-ftto-gpon-onu-with-one-ethernet-port-smaller-size_p1013.html
ZTE F623 Indoor ONU 1GE 3FE 1POTS $29 
http://sweetplaza.com/sc-apc-original-zte-zxhn-f623-gpon-onu-1ge-3fe-lan-ports-1voice-port-wifienglish-interface_p1206.html

Chinese Splice on connector $0.80 http://sweetplaza.com/c/connector_0391
30M Armored simplex pigtail $9.66 from FS https://www.fs.com/products/20745.html
20M $7.66
10M $5.66
Wall Mount MultiLink/Tii Outdoor NID - $15 (I don't have link)

ZTE C320 OLT 16 ports of gpon with class c+ optics. $2200 $2200/16/32=$4.30/per 
customer at 100% utilization..

Add another 16 ports with optics for only $590. that's 32*32=1024 customers 
potentially. $2.75/per customer at 100% util.

32 port rackmount splitter. $84 https://www.fs.com/products/11948.html
32 port bare splitter for splice case $14 https://www.fs.com/products/11528.html
8 port bare splitter for splice case $5

None of that includes shipping or import duties/fees. So figure in a few 
hundred $$$ for shipping/import fees.

Even if you only put 8 people per OLT port that's $2800/32/8=$11 per customer. 
+ $1 per port on a 1x8 PLC + $15 for NID + $29 for ONT with POTS + $10 for 30M 
pigtail. = ~$65/customer all in for gpon with 8 customers per port.

You can use www.SmartOLT.com for web based OLT/ONU management/monitoring (tell 
Adrian I sent you for a discount)

I prefer using GPON for the management capabilities. You can always overlay 
10GPON on top of your regular GPON network when the time comes to upgrade. Just 
add/change the card in the OLT and add a 2x1 splitter to combine both OLT ports 
into the single fiber. Since they use different wavelengths they will coexist 
over the same fiber. Just install new ONT's.

Gerard


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:32 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

ONT Housing (Clam Shell)  $   29.00  
ONT  $ 215.00  
Unicam  $   15.00  
Cyber Power  $   81.00  
Cyber Install  $ 110.00  
House Sub Total  $ 450.00  

OLT $11K/8/32  $   42.97  
OIM $845/32  $   38.27  
Splitter $900/32  $   39.43  
DLC per Sub Subtotal  $ 120.67  


Electronics/Sub Total Expense  $ 570.67  



  From: Mark - Myakka Technologies 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
  To: Chuck McCown 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  Chuck,

  Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser and a 
1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.


  So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 per 
user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for electronics. 
 As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But, we are only 
talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we are debating 
fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure Chuck has some at 
least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any type of major upgrade 
for several years.

  But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to make 
sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not to 
mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently have 2 
customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON side.

  -- 
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.MyakkaTech.com

  --

  Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:


   When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested in cpe 
electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and outdoor 
cabinets.  

When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per customer. 
 
For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time convincing myself 
to do PON.  

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 11:09 AM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

PLC splitter in spice case doing full fusion splicing.

-- 
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 12:09:32 PM, you wrote:


 Are you using splitters in splice cases or in cross connect boxes?

  From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:55 AM
  To: Adam Moffett
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Dave]

CCR I think would do the trick but I would have 2 for fail over
Or I would do a PowerV4 from linktechs with failover ccr1236
Let the mikrotiks handle your nat and DHCP
DNS I would do on a x86 box


On 02/12/2018 01:59 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their 
hundred or so homes.
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.� It will require 
some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of 
expertise.

Considering a minimal NOC build.
I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their 
answer.� Not sure if asked on the list or not. But the answer went 
something like this:


 1. Buy a big CCR.
 2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
 3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.

I am sure I would need at least one server.� DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
Batts, rectifier, cooling.
I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.


--


ISPinaBOX.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

*chuckles*

see? i do read a lot of what you post, even if i don't always reply... :)

  - Original Message - 
  From: Mike Hammett 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box


  *waves*




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "CBB - Jay Fuller" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:31:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

   

  oh god.  don't let Mike Hammett or about half of the people on facebook hear 
you say that LOL
  Hi Mike!

- Original Message - 
From: Chuck McCown 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box


Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred 
or so homes.  
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

Considering a minimal NOC build.  

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their 
answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something 
like this:

  1.. Buy a big CCR. 
  2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
  3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Mike Hammett]

*waves* 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "CBB - Jay Fuller"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:31:15 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 



oh god. don't let Mike Hammett or about half of the people on facebook hear you 
say that LOL 
Hi Mike! 



- Original Message - 
From: Chuck McCown 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:02 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 




Guess I don’t need DNS. 8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy... 




From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 




Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes. 
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area. It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise. 

Considering a minimal NOC build. 

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer. 
Not sure if asked on the list or not. But the answer went something like this: 


1. Buy a big CCR. 
2. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll. 


I am sure I would need at least one server. DHCP, NAT, DNS? 
But can all of that be provided by the CCR? 

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created? 

Batts, rectifier, cooling. 

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street. 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

hahah...told ya

  - Original Message - 
  From: Mike Hammett 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box


  Don't do that.




  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions

  Midwest Internet Exchange

  The Brothers WISP






--

  From: "Chuck McCown" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:02:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box


  Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

  From: Chuck McCown 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

  Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or 
so homes.  
  I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

  Considering a minimal NOC build.  

  I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:

1.. Buy a big CCR. 
2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  

  I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
  But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

  What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

  Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

  I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

oh god.  don't let Mike Hammett or about half of the people on facebook hear 
you say that LOL
Hi Mike!

  - Original Message - 
  From: Chuck McCown 
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box


  Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

  From: Chuck McCown 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

  Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or 
so homes.  
  I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

  Considering a minimal NOC build.  

  I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:

1.. Buy a big CCR. 
2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  

  I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
  But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

  What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

  Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

  I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Gerard Dupont]

Here's some pricing based on Chinese ZTE with no real support.

ZTE F601 Indoor ONU 1 GE port. $24 http://sweetplaza.com/zte-
gpon-terminal-ont-zxa10-f601-or-zxhn-f601-ftth-or-ftto-
gpon-onu-with-one-ethernet-port-smaller-size_p1013.html
ZTE F623 Indoor ONU 1GE 3FE 1POTS $29 http://sweetplaza.com/sc-apc-
original-zte-zxhn-f623-gpon-onu-1ge-3fe-lan-ports-1voice-
port-wifienglish-interface_p1206.html
Chinese Splice on connector $0.80 http://sweetplaza.com/c/connector_0391
30M Armored simplex pigtail $9.66 from FS https://www.fs.com/
products/20745.html
20M $7.66
10M $5.66
Wall Mount MultiLink/Tii Outdoor NID - $15 (I don't have link)

ZTE C320 OLT 16 ports of gpon with class c+ optics. $2200
$2200/16/32=$4.30/per customer at 100% utilization..
Add another 16 ports with optics for only $590. that's 32*32=1024 customers
potentially. $2.75/per customer at 100% util.

32 port rackmount splitter. $84 https://www.fs.com/products/11948.html
32 port bare splitter for splice case $14
https://www.fs.com/products/11528.html
8 port bare splitter for splice case $5

None of that includes shipping or import duties/fees. So figure in a few
hundred $$$ for shipping/import fees.

Even if you only put 8 people per OLT port that's $2800/32/8=$11 per
customer. + $1 per port on a 1x8 PLC + $15 for NID + $29 for ONT with POTS
+ $10 for 30M pigtail. = ~$65/customer all in for gpon with 8 customers per
port.

You can use www.SmartOLT.com for web based OLT/ONU management/monitoring
(tell Adrian I sent you for a discount)

I prefer using GPON for the management capabilities. You can always overlay
10GPON on top of your regular GPON network when the time comes to upgrade.
Just add/change the card in the OLT and add a 2x1 splitter to combine both
OLT ports into the single fiber. Since they use different wavelengths they
will coexist over the same fiber. Just install new ONT's.

Gerard


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:32 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> ONT Housing (Clam Shell)  $   29.00
> ONT  $ 215.00
> Unicam  $   15.00
> Cyber Power  $   81.00
> Cyber Install  $ 110.00
> House Sub Total * $ 450.00 *
>
> OLT $11K/8/32  $   42.97
> OIM $845/32  $   38.27
> Splitter $900/32  $   39.43
> DLC per Sub Subtotal * $ 120.67 *
>
>
> Electronics/Sub Total Expense * $ 570.67 *
>
>
> *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
> *To:* Chuck McCown
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> Chuck,
>
> Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser and a
> 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.
>
>
> So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 per
> user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for
> electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But,
> we are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we
> are debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure
> Chuck has some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any
> type of major upgrade for several years.
>
> But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to make
> sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not to
> mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently have 2
> customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON side.
>
>
>
> *-- Best regards,Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc.*www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *--Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:*
>
> When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested in cpe
> electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and outdoor
> cabinets.
>
> When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per customer.
> For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time convincing myself to
> do PON.
>
> *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 11:09 AM
> *To:* Chuck McCown
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> Chuck,
>
> PLC splitter in spice case doing full fusion splicing.
>
>
>
> *-- Best regards,Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc.*www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *--Monday, February 12, 2018, 12:09:32 PM, you wrote:*
>
> Are you using splitters in splice cases or in cross connect boxes?
>
> *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 9:55 AM
> *To:* Adam Moffett
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
>
> Adam,
>
> There are some ranging things you have to consider.  "The requirement
> when deploying ONTs are the maximum distance between two ONTs cannot
> exceed 20Km."
>
> The way we have done this is to reuse fibers as we travel down long
> stretches of roads between neighborhoods.
>
> We will deploy a 1x32 splitter in the field. We will splice that into the
> last 3 ribbons/tubes of our fiber.  E

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Eric Kuhnke]

Nobody has observed yet that it's a high risk to rely on a 3rd party's free
service, no matter what it is, to provide an essential service to your
customers?

Nobody remembers 10+ years ago when a bunch of people all over the world
had a certain Level3 DNS server IP address configured into their gear, and
then level3 decided to introduce an ACL only allowing queries from their
own IP space?

Imagine if google decides to do away with 8.8.8.8 someday and you have 200
residential customers with that configured as the first resolver to try in
their home routers...

Running a recursive caching bind9 resolver with an ACL that only allows
your own ranges to query it is not a very high barrier to get over.



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> If 8.8.8.8 isn't available to the closest node as a local network, you're
> not using it.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Sterling Jacobson" 
> *To: *af@afmug.com
> *Sent: *Monday, February 12, 2018 3:09:33 PM
>
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
> I think that was me you asked about those three items.
>
>
>
> AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.
>
>
>
> I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it
> ‘applies’.
>
>
>
> I do like redundancy though.
>
>
>
> So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are
> relatively cheap.
>
>
>
> With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping,
> I just shape at the CPE or switch port.
>
>
>
> So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a
> SFP switch and two CCR routers.
>
> I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those
> running VRRP between them works great.
>
> Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have
> ‘standard’ redundancy.
>
>
>
> Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units,
> and have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.
>
>
>
> They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between
> them to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.
>
>
>
> Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.
>
>
>
> Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.
>
>
>
> I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.
>
>
>
> I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track
> of power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.
>
>
>
> That’s about it.
>
>
>
> Rinse, repeat.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
>
>
> Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...
>
>
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
>
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
>
>
> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
> or so homes.
>
> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
> expertise.
>
>
>
> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>
>
>
> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
> something like this:
>
>
>
>1. Buy a big CCR.
>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>
>
>
> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
>
> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>
>
>
> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>
>
>
> Batts, rectifier, cooling.
>
>
>
> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Chuck McCown]

Thanks Sterling.

I am getting a bit more serious now.  Starting to spend money.
I just asked the DIA provider of they will throw in some rack space.  They said 
they would.
Hopefully battery backed up –48vdc will be supplied as part of the rack.

So the only thing I have to put out in the snow covered box are the switches. 

From: Sterling Jacobson 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:09 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

I think that was me you asked about those three items.

 

AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.

 

I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it 
‘applies’.

 

I do like redundancy though.

 

So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are relatively 
cheap.

 

With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping, I 
just shape at the CPE or switch port.

 

So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a SFP 
switch and two CCR routers.

I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those running 
VRRP between them works great.

Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have ‘standard’ 
redundancy.

 

Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units, and 
have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.

 

They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between them 
to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.

 

Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.

 

Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.

 

I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.

 

I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track of 
power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.

 

That’s about it.

 

Rinse, repeat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

 

Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

 

From: Chuck McCown 

Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

 

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes.  

I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

 

Considering a minimal NOC build.  

 

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:

 

  1.. Buy a big CCR. 
  2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
  3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  
 

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?

But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

 

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

 

Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

 

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

 

 

 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Chuck McCown]

File
Save
Save as file

From: Sterling Jacobson 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:09 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

I think that was me you asked about those three items.

 

AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.

 

I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it 
‘applies’.

 

I do like redundancy though.

 

So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are relatively 
cheap.

 

With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping, I 
just shape at the CPE or switch port.

 

So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a SFP 
switch and two CCR routers.

I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those running 
VRRP between them works great.

Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have ‘standard’ 
redundancy.

 

Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units, and 
have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.

 

They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between them 
to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.

 

Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.

 

Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.

 

I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.

 

I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track of 
power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.

 

That’s about it.

 

Rinse, repeat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

 

Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

 

From: Chuck McCown 

Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

 

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes.  

I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

 

Considering a minimal NOC build.  

 

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:

 

  1.. Buy a big CCR. 
  2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
  3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  
 

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?

But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

 

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

 

Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

 

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

 

 

 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Mike Hammett]

If 8.8.8.8 isn't available to the closest node as a local network, you're not 
using it. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Sterling Jacobson"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:09:33 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 



I think that was me you asked about those three items. 

AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers. 

I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it 
‘applies’. 

I do like redundancy though. 

So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are relatively 
cheap. 

With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping, I 
just shape at the CPE or switch port. 

So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a SFP 
switch and two CCR routers. 
I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those running 
VRRP between them works great. 
Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have ‘standard’ 
redundancy. 

Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units, and 
have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well. 

They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between them 
to fill the duties for the cabinet/site. 

Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well. 

Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that. 

I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet. 

I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track of 
power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc. 

That’s about it. 

Rinse, repeat. 








From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 




Guess I don’t need DNS. 8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy... 






From: Chuck McCown 

Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM 

To: af@afmug.com 

Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 






Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes. 

I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area. It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise. 



Considering a minimal NOC build. 



I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer. 
Not sure if asked on the list or not. But the answer went something like this: 



1. Buy a big CCR. 
2. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll. 




I am sure I would need at least one server. DHCP, NAT, DNS? 

But can all of that be provided by the CCR? 



What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created? 



Batts, rectifier, cooling. 



I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street. 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Sterling Jacobson]

I think that was me you asked about those three items.

AND we still use 8.8.8.8 DNS resolvers.

I know, it’s bad, but one of my upstreams is directly on Google CDN so it 
‘applies’.

I do like redundancy though.

So if you use one CCR, get two of them for your project, they are relatively 
cheap.

With fiber you really don’t need the extra servers for bandwidth shaping, I 
just shape at the CPE or switch port.

So in one cabinet you put say a 144 count panel and splice on, then get a SFP 
switch and two CCR routers.
I have used the 1036 CCR in some areas to start, and a pair of those running 
VRRP between them works great.
Plug both into 10Gbps SFP+ ports on the switch/switches and you have ‘standard’ 
redundancy.

Meaning you can bring in two 10Gbps links, one to each of the CCR units, and 
have redundant SFP+ links to the switch bank as well.

They have more than enough horse power to run DHCP, NAT, DNS etc between them 
to fill the duties for the cabinet/site.

Get a UPS, I use Alpha, and four batteries on it should work well.

Cabinet can be 20AMP and run plenty of switches on that.

I also buy an AC unit and attach it to the side of the cabinet.

I put some monitoring in there on a separate managed network to keep track of 
power and heat/temp and track the switches/CPE’s etc.

That’s about it.

Rinse, repeat.






From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

From: Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes.
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.

Considering a minimal NOC build.

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:


  1.  Buy a big CCR.
  2.  Hire Linktechs to configure it.
  3.  Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Mike Hammett]

It is. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:49:02 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 


It was observed in the past that using OpenDNS or GoogleDNS you could get 
slower performance from CDN's. 


I can't swear that's still a thing. 








4) Do I really care where the DNS is geographically? 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Adam Moffett]

It was observed in the past that using OpenDNS or GoogleDNS you could 
get slower performance from CDN's.


I can't swear that's still a thing.



4)Do I really care where the DNS is geographically?

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Eric Kuhnke]

If the IP transit provider can sell you 500 or 1000 Mbps IP, what would
prevent them in the topology of their network from building a circuit as L2
transport back to a gigE handoff at your existing network?  They have
footprint in the new possible territory but not where you're currently
located?

If you're taking a default route from some 3rd party provider and getting a
block of IPs from them you'll have very little or no control over routing,
peering to content sources, etc.

Based on the description for a couple hundred houses I don't see why this
couldn't all fit in a pedestal sized outdoor cabinet 45RU in height, with
sufficient depth for modern equipment. This is a power/rectifier cabinet
for $2k, strip out the existing stuff.

http://usedtowers.com/product/emerson-single-bay-loaded-cabinets/



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> OK to answer a handful of questions from this thread.
>
> 1)This turf is a long way away from all my other stuff, so I don’t
> want to actually build a building over there.  Nice to get in out of the
> rain when you are doing onsite but it it is built correctly it can be
> either remotely managed or some smart hands can run out and swap the bad
> hardware.
>
> 2)I do have a resolver available at another site, I also have access
> to CDNs.  There are options.  But you know, 8.8.8.8 always seems to work
> whenever my “real” DNS is not working correctly.
>
> 3)The DIA provider may be able to give me some rack space, so my
> anxiety about having it all under snow in a box in the side of a country
> road may be for nothing.
>
> 4)Do I really care where the DNS is geographically?
>
> Right now I am shopping for used horse trailers to convert into a splicing
> trailer.
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 1:28 PM
> *To:* af
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
> A CCR could certainly do DHCP and NAT... I seem to remember there being
> some reason that made using Mikrotik for a DNS server a bad idea, but it
> would be capable of doing that too.
> It doesn't take much to run a DNS server, so it might not be a bad idea to
> stick some kind of a little server in there anyway, but I really don't see
> any reason why it couldn't all go in a cabinet on the corner of the
> street... it wouldn't even need to be a particularly large cabinet.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
>> or so homes.
>> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
>> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
>> expertise.
>>
>> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>>
>> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
>> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
>> something like this:
>>
>>
>>1. Buy a big CCR.
>>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>>
>>
>> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
>> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>>
>> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>>
>> Batts, rectifier, cooling.
>>
>> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Mike Hammett]

A resolver with different upstreams won't help you. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: "af"  
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:39:54 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 




OK to answer a handful of questions from this thread. 

1) This turf is a long way away from all my other stuff, so I don’t want to 
actually build a building over there. Nice to get in out of the rain when you 
are doing onsite but it it is built correctly it can be either remotely managed 
or some smart hands can run out and swap the bad hardware. 

2) I do have a resolver available at another site, I also have access to CDNs. 
There are options. But you know, 8.8.8.8 always seems to work whenever my 
“real” DNS is not working correctly. 

3) The DIA provider may be able to give me some rack space, so my anxiety about 
having it all under snow in a box in the side of a country road may be for 
nothing. 

4) Do I really care where the DNS is geographically? 

Right now I am shopping for used horse trailers to convert into a splicing 
trailer. 






From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:28 PM 
To: af 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 



A CCR could certainly do DHCP and NAT... I seem to remember there being some 
reason that made using Mikrotik for a DNS server a bad idea, but it would be 
capable of doing that too. 
It doesn't take much to run a DNS server, so it might not be a bad idea to 
stick some kind of a little server in there anyway, but I really don't see any 
reason why it couldn't all go in a cabinet on the corner of the street... it 
wouldn't even need to be a particularly large cabinet. 



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Chuck McCown < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 






Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes. 
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area. It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise. 

Considering a minimal NOC build. 

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer. 
Not sure if asked on the list or not. But the answer went something like this: 


1. Buy a big CCR. 
2. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll. 


I am sure I would need at least one server. DHCP, NAT, DNS? 
But can all of that be provided by the CCR? 

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created? 

Batts, rectifier, cooling. 

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street. 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Dennis Burgess]

Yep, simple, we can sell them everything they need if needed.  We have outdoor 
boxes, switches, you name it. ☺

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:36 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Only issue I know of is that if you turn on the DNS server, then it's an open 
resolver by default.  You have to add a firewall rule(s) to protect it.  
Someone who went in not realizing that would have a problem. I never used the 
Mikrotik DNS on a large scale, so it could have practical limits that I'm not 
aware of.


-- Original Message --
From: "Mathew Howard" mailto:mhoward...@gmail.com>>
To: "af" mailto:af@afmug.com>>
Sent: 2/12/2018 3:28:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

A CCR could certainly do DHCP and NAT... I seem to remember there being some 
reason that made using Mikrotik for a DNS server a bad idea, but it would be 
capable of doing that too.
It doesn't take much to run a DNS server, so it might not be a bad idea to 
stick some kind of a little server in there anyway, but I really don't see any 
reason why it couldn't all go in a cabinet on the corner of the street... it 
wouldn't even need to be a particularly large cabinet.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Chuck McCown 
mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes.
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.

Considering a minimal NOC build.

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:


  1.  Buy a big CCR.
  2.  Hire Linktechs to configure it.
  3.  Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Chuck McCown]

I would too, but it is too far away from any NOC I can use.  

From: Josh Baird 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:39 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Transport may still be an option depending on the price.  I'd much rather treat 
this as another POP and manage these types of core services at my NOC/core 
rather than having a totally separate network.  Just my opinion.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:33 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  No, it isn’t.  Many miles away.  

  From: Josh Baird 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:03 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

  Is this in your service area?  Could you just get transport/backhaul back to 
your NOC and provide all of these services there?

  On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:59 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred 
or so homes.  
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

Considering a minimal NOC build.  

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their 
answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something 
like this:

  1.. Buy a big CCR. 
  2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
  3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Josh Baird]

Transport may still be an option depending on the price.  I'd much rather
treat this as another POP and manage these types of core services at my
NOC/core rather than having a totally separate network.  Just my opinion.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:33 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> No, it isn’t.  Many miles away.
>
> *From:* Josh Baird
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 1:03 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
> Is this in your service area?  Could you just get transport/backhaul back
> to your NOC and provide all of these services there?
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:59 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
>> or so homes.
>> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
>> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
>> expertise.
>>
>> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>>
>> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
>> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
>> something like this:
>>
>>
>>1. Buy a big CCR.
>>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>>
>>
>> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
>> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>>
>> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>>
>> Batts, rectifier, cooling.
>>
>> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Chuck McCown]

OK to answer a handful of questions from this thread.

1)This turf is a long way away from all my other stuff, so I don’t want to 
actually build a building over there.  Nice to get in out of the rain when you 
are doing onsite but it it is built correctly it can be either remotely managed 
or some smart hands can run out and swap the bad hardware.  

2)I do have a resolver available at another site, I also have access to 
CDNs.  There are options.  But you know, 8.8.8.8 always seems to work whenever 
my “real” DNS is not working correctly.  

3)The DIA provider may be able to give me some rack space, so my anxiety 
about having it all under snow in a box in the side of a country road may be 
for nothing.  

4)Do I really care where the DNS is geographically?

Right now I am shopping for used horse trailers to convert into a splicing 
trailer.  



From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:28 PM
To: af 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

A CCR could certainly do DHCP and NAT... I seem to remember there being some 
reason that made using Mikrotik for a DNS server a bad idea, but it would be 
capable of doing that too.

It doesn't take much to run a DNS server, so it might not be a bad idea to 
stick some kind of a little server in there anyway, but I really don't see any 
reason why it couldn't all go in a cabinet on the corner of the street... it 
wouldn't even need to be a particularly large cabinet. 


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or 
so homes.  
  I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

  Considering a minimal NOC build.  

  I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:

1.. Buy a big CCR. 
2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  

  I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
  But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

  What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

  Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

  I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Adam Moffett]

Only issue I know of is that if you turn on the DNS server, then it's an 
open resolver by default.  You have to add a firewall rule(s) to protect 
it.  Someone who went in not realizing that would have a problem. I 
never used the Mikrotik DNS on a large scale, so it could have practical 
limits that I'm not aware of.



-- Original Message --
From: "Mathew Howard" 
To: "af" 
Sent: 2/12/2018 3:28:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

A CCR could certainly do DHCP and NAT... I seem to remember there being 
some reason that made using Mikrotik for a DNS server a bad idea, but 
it would be capable of doing that too.
It doesn't take much to run a DNS server, so it might not be a bad idea 
to stick some kind of a little server in there anyway, but I really 
don't see any reason why it couldn't all go in a cabinet on the corner 
of the street... it wouldn't even need to be a particularly large 
cabinet.


On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their 
hundred or so homes.
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require 
some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of 
expertise.


Considering a minimal NOC build.

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their 
answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went 
something like this:


Buy a big CCR. Hire Linktechs to configure it. Put in a big switch for 
the AE SFPs and rock and roll.


I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Chuck McCown]

No, it isn’t.  Many miles away.  

From: Josh Baird 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:03 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Is this in your service area?  Could you just get transport/backhaul back to 
your NOC and provide all of these services there?

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:59 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or 
so homes.  
  I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

  Considering a minimal NOC build.  

  I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:

1.. Buy a big CCR. 
2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  

  I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
  But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

  What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

  Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

  I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Chuck McCown]

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLTAnd regulatory requirement.  Actually the FCC is 
relaxing the 8 hours battery backup requirement.  We may be able to charge the 
customer for UPS capability at some point.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:02 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

ah I see.  For telephone reliability?


-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 3:00:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  Nope.  It is a requirement for regulated areas, not so for unregulated areas. 
 

  From: Adam Moffett 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:53 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  There's a UPS included in the parts list for PON setup.  Not included on AE?


  -- Original Message --
  From: "Chuck McCown" 
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 2/12/2018 2:50:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

$100/house for AE

You pay for the splitters that fit the cabinet and cross box.  Some cost 
more than others depending on the sheet metal.  

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:44 PM
To: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

What would you house total be for AE?  Also $900 for 1x32 splitter, you 
need to find a better vendor.  The bare end PLC's are $14 the fancy 
connectorized ones are $40 at fs.com.  $11K for a 8 port card and $845 for a 
Laser, that's why we didn't/couldn't go with calix.
That $120.67 should be about $40-$50.

-- 
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 2:32:03 PM, you wrote:


 ONT Housing (Clam Shell) $   29.00  
ONT $ 215.00  
Unicam $   15.00  
Cyber Power $   81.00  
Cyber Install $ 110.00  
House Sub Total $ 450.00  

OLT $11K/8/32 $   42.97  
OIM $845/32 $   38.27  
Splitter $900/32 $   39.43  
DLC per Sub Subtotal $ 120.67  


Electronics/Sub Total Expense $ 570.67  


  From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
  To: Chuck McCown
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  Chuck,

  Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser 
and a 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.


  So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 
per user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for 
electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But, we 
are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we are 
debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure Chuck has 
some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any type of major 
upgrade for several years.

  But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to 
make sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not to 
mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently have 2 
customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON side.

  -- 
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.MyakkaTech.com

  --

  Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:


   When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested 
in cpe electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and 
outdoor cabinets.  

When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per 
customer.  
For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time 
convincing myself to do PON.  

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 11:09 AM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

PLC splitter in spice case doing full fusion splicing.

-- 
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 12:09:32 PM, you wrote:


 Are you using splitters in splice cases or in cross 
connect boxes?

  From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:55 AM
  To: Adam Moffett
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

   

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Adam Moffett]

Mikrotik is like a swiss army knife.  It does all those things, but it's 
weaker at all of them than the proper tool is.

It would absolutely work though.


-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 2:59:22 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their 
hundred or so homes.
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require 
some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of 
expertise.


Considering a minimal NOC build.

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their 
answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went 
something like this:


Buy a big CCR. Hire Linktechs to configure it. Put in a big switch for 
the AE SFPs and rock and roll.


I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Mathew Howard]

A CCR could certainly do DHCP and NAT... I seem to remember there being
some reason that made using Mikrotik for a DNS server a bad idea, but it
would be capable of doing that too.
It doesn't take much to run a DNS server, so it might not be a bad idea to
stick some kind of a little server in there anyway, but I really don't see
any reason why it couldn't all go in a cabinet on the corner of the
street... it wouldn't even need to be a particularly large cabinet.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
> or so homes.
> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
> expertise.
>
> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>
> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
> something like this:
>
>
>1. Buy a big CCR.
>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>
>
> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>
> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>
> Batts, rectifier, cooling.
>
> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Adam Moffett]

I think the big one is you can get CDN servers near wherever 8.8.8.8 
lives instead of ones near where you really are.




-- Original Message --
From: "Eric Kuhnke" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 3:05:10 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

I can't even begin to enumerate why this is wrong and you will regret 
it later. I'm sure others will go into more detail why. If you don't 
run a pair of geographically distributed recursive caching resolvers 
for DIA/IP customers, it is in my opinion not a real ISP.




On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

From:Chuck McCown
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their 
hundred or so homes.
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require 
some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of 
expertise.


Considering a minimal NOC build.

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their 
answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went 
something like this:


Buy a big CCR. Hire Linktechs to configure it. Put in a big switch for 
the AE SFPs and rock and roll.


I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Steve Jones]

powercode is ideal for this, just FYI (i dont know about fiber stuffs)

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> I can't even begin to enumerate why this is wrong and you will regret it
> later. I'm sure others will go into more detail why. If you don't run a
> pair of geographically distributed recursive caching resolvers for DIA/IP
> customers, it is in my opinion not a real ISP.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...
>>
>> *From:* Chuck McCown
>> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>>
>> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
>> or so homes.
>> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
>> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
>> expertise.
>>
>> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>>
>> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
>> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
>> something like this:
>>
>>
>>1. Buy a big CCR.
>>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>>
>>
>> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
>> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>>
>> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>>
>> Batts, rectifier, cooling.
>>
>> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Eric Kuhnke]

I can't even begin to enumerate why this is wrong and you will regret it
later. I'm sure others will go into more detail why. If you don't run a
pair of geographically distributed recursive caching resolvers for DIA/IP
customers, it is in my opinion not a real ISP.



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] ISP in a box
>
> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
> or so homes.
> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
> expertise.
>
> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>
> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
> something like this:
>
>
>1. Buy a big CCR.
>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>
>
> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>
> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>
> Batts, rectifier, cooling.
>
> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Mike Hammett]

Don't do that. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Chuck McCown"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:02:05 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 




Guess I don’t need DNS. 8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy... 




From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box 




Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes. 
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area. It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise. 

Considering a minimal NOC build. 

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer. 
Not sure if asked on the list or not. But the answer went something like this: 


1. Buy a big CCR. 
2. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll. 


I am sure I would need at least one server. DHCP, NAT, DNS? 
But can all of that be provided by the CCR? 

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created? 

Batts, rectifier, cooling. 

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street. 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Josh Baird]

Is this in your service area?  Could you just get transport/backhaul back
to your NOC and provide all of these services there?

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:59 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
> or so homes.
> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
> expertise.
>
> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>
> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
> something like this:
>
>
>1. Buy a big CCR.
>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>
>
> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>
> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>
> Batts, rectifier, cooling.
>
> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Eric Kuhnke]

I would do it with one x86-64 server running xen or KVM on a recent Linux
distribution, and then various VMs for services like recursive DNS
resolver, dhcp daemon, etc.

1GbE link with vlan trunk and tagged traffic to the CCR would be sufficient.

You do plan on giving the residential customers a second off-site recursive
resolver to query, one that's under your control somewhere else on your
network?



On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:59 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred
> or so homes.
> I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require
> some build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of
> expertise.
>
> Considering a minimal NOC build.
>
> I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their
> answer.  Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went
> something like this:
>
>
>1. Buy a big CCR.
>2. Hire Linktechs to configure it.
>3. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.
>
>
> I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
> But can all of that be provided by the CCR?
>
> What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?
>
> Batts, rectifier, cooling.
>
> I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Adam Moffett]

ah I see.  For telephone reliability?


-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 3:00:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Nope.  It is a requirement for regulated areas, not so for unregulated 
areas.


From:Adam Moffett
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:53 PM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

There's a UPS included in the parts list for PON setup.  Not included 
on AE?



-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 2:50:00 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT


$100/house for AE

You pay for the splitters that fit the cabinet and cross box.  Some 
cost more than others depending on the sheet metal.


From:Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:44 PM
To:Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

What would you house total be for AE?  Also $900 for 1x32 splitter, 
you need to find a better vendor.  The bare end PLC's are $14 the 
fancy connectorized ones are $40 at fs.com.  $11K for a 8 port card 
and $845 for a Laser, that's why we didn't/couldn't go with calix.

That $120.67 should be about $40-$50.

--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 2:32:03 PM, you wrote:


ONT Housing (Clam Shell)
$   29.00
ONT
$ 215.00
Unicam
$   15.00
Cyber Power
$   81.00
Cyber Install
$ 110.00
House Sub Total
$ 450.00
OLT $11K/8/32
$   42.97
OIM $845/32
$   38.27
Splitter $900/32
$   39.43
DLC per Sub Subtotal
$ 120.67
Electronics/Sub Total Expense
$ 570.67


From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser 
and a 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.



So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 
per user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for 
electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  
But, we are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  
Remember we are debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months 
old.  I'm sure Chuck has some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  
I don't plan on any type of major upgrade for several years.


But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to 
make sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  
Not to mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We 
currently have 2 customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 
on the GPON side.


--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:


When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested in cpe 
electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and 
outdoor cabinets.


When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per 
customer.
For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time convincing 
myself to do PON.


From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 11:09 AM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

PLC splitter in spice case doing full fusion splicing.

--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 12:09:32 PM, you wrote:


Are you using splitters in splice cases or in cross connect boxes?

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:55 AM
To: Adam Moffett
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Adam,

There are some ranging things you have to consider.  "The requirement
when deploying ONTs are the maximum distance between two ONTs cannot
exceed 20Km."

The way we have done this is to reuse fibers as we travel down long 
stretches of roads between neighborhoods.


We will deploy a 1x32 splitter in the field. We will splice that into 
the last 3 ribbons/tubes of our fiber.  Example, if we were using a 
144 count cable, ribbons 10-12 will be spliced into.  After a few 
miles depending on density or distance, we will splice in another 1x32 
splitter to ribbons 10-12.  We just keep doing this until we run out 
of light budget.


We build to the lots passed, so we are not trying to optimize max 
usage per port.  Currently, we average about 50% utilization on our 
ports.






--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 11:38:39 AM, you wrote:


Maybe I need to review the math.

I was figuring on several small splitters along the route.  I didn't 
compare to a 1x32 in the cabinet because I figured if I brought every 
fiber back to the cabinet then 

Re: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Chuck McCown]

Guess I don’t need DNS.  8.8.8.8 seems cheap and easy...

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:59 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] ISP in a box

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes.  
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

Considering a minimal NOC build.  

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:

  1.. Buy a big CCR. 
  2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
  3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Chuck McCown]

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLTNope.  It is a requirement for regulated areas, not 
so for unregulated areas.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:53 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

There's a UPS included in the parts list for PON setup.  Not included on AE?


-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 2:50:00 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  $100/house for AE

  You pay for the splitters that fit the cabinet and cross box.  Some cost more 
than others depending on the sheet metal.  

  From: Mark - Myakka Technologies 
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:44 PM
  To: Chuck McCown 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  Chuck,

  What would you house total be for AE?  Also $900 for 1x32 splitter, you need 
to find a better vendor.  The bare end PLC's are $14 the fancy connectorized 
ones are $40 at fs.com.  $11K for a 8 port card and $845 for a Laser, that's 
why we didn't/couldn't go with calix.
  That $120.67 should be about $40-$50.

  -- 
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.MyakkaTech.com

  --

  Monday, February 12, 2018, 2:32:03 PM, you wrote:


   ONT Housing (Clam Shell) $   29.00  
  ONT $ 215.00  
  Unicam $   15.00  
  Cyber Power $   81.00  
  Cyber Install $ 110.00  
  House Sub Total $ 450.00  
  
  OLT $11K/8/32 $   42.97  
  OIM $845/32 $   38.27  
  Splitter $900/32 $   39.43  
  DLC per Sub Subtotal $ 120.67  
  
  
  Electronics/Sub Total Expense $ 570.67  


From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser 
and a 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.


So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 
per user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for 
electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But, we 
are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we are 
debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure Chuck has 
some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any type of major 
upgrade for several years.

But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to 
make sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not to 
mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently have 2 
customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON side.

-- 
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:


 When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested in 
cpe electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and outdoor 
cabinets.  

  When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per 
customer.  
  For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time convincing 
myself to do PON.  

  From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 11:09 AM
  To: Chuck McCown
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  Chuck,

  PLC splitter in spice case doing full fusion splicing.

  -- 
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.MyakkaTech.com

  --

  Monday, February 12, 2018, 12:09:32 PM, you wrote:


   Are you using splitters in splice cases or in cross connect 
boxes?

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:55 AM
To: Adam Moffett
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Adam,

There are some ranging things you have to consider.  "The 
requirement
when deploying ONTs are the maximum distance between two 
ONTs cannot
exceed 20Km."

The way we have done this is to reuse fibers as we travel 
down long stretches of roads between neighborhoods.

We will deploy a 1x32 splitter in the field. We will splice 
that into the last 3 ribbons/tubes of our fiber.  Example, if we were using a 
144 count cable, ribbons 10-12 will be spliced into.  After a few miles 
depending on density

[AFMUG] ISP in a box

[Chuck McCown]

Had a subdivision developer contact me, wanting service for their hundred or so 
homes.  
I can get DIA close to the area at a reasonable area.  It will require some 
build but that is OK, that is something I feel some level of expertise.  

Considering a minimal NOC build.  

I asked this question of someone once before and I cannot find their answer.  
Not sure if asked on the list or not.  But the answer went something like this:

  1.. Buy a big CCR. 
  2.. Hire Linktechs to configure it. 
  3.. Put in a big switch for the AE SFPs and rock and roll.  

I am sure I would need at least one server.  DHCP, NAT, DNS?
But can all of that be provided by the CCR?

What is the smallest NOC configuration that could be created?

Batts, rectifier, cooling.  

I really could put all this in a cabinet on the corner of the street.  

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Adam Moffett]

There's a UPS included in the parts list for PON setup.  Not included on 
AE?



-- Original Message --
From: "Chuck McCown" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 2/12/2018 2:50:00 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT


$100/house for AE

You pay for the splitters that fit the cabinet and cross box.  Some 
cost more than others depending on the sheet metal.


From:Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:44 PM
To:Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

What would you house total be for AE?  Also $900 for 1x32 splitter, you 
need to find a better vendor.  The bare end PLC's are $14 the fancy 
connectorized ones are $40 at fs.com.  $11K for a 8 port card and $845 
for a Laser, that's why we didn't/couldn't go with calix.

That $120.67 should be about $40-$50.

--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 2:32:03 PM, you wrote:


ONT Housing (Clam Shell)
$   29.00
ONT
$ 215.00
Unicam
$   15.00
Cyber Power
$   81.00
Cyber Install
$ 110.00
House Sub Total
$ 450.00
OLT $11K/8/32
$   42.97
OIM $845/32
$   38.27
Splitter $900/32
$   39.43
DLC per Sub Subtotal
$ 120.67
Electronics/Sub Total Expense
$ 570.67


From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser 
and a 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.



So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 
per user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for 
electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  
But, we are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  
Remember we are debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months 
old.  I'm sure Chuck has some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I 
don't plan on any type of major upgrade for several years.


But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to 
make sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  
Not to mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently 
have 2 customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON 
side.


--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:


When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested in cpe 
electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and 
outdoor cabinets.


When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per customer.
For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time convincing myself 
to do PON.


From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 11:09 AM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

PLC splitter in spice case doing full fusion splicing.

--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 12:09:32 PM, you wrote:


Are you using splitters in splice cases or in cross connect boxes?

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:55 AM
To: Adam Moffett
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Adam,

There are some ranging things you have to consider.  "The requirement
when deploying ONTs are the maximum distance between two ONTs cannot
exceed 20Km."

The way we have done this is to reuse fibers as we travel down long 
stretches of roads between neighborhoods.


We will deploy a 1x32 splitter in the field. We will splice that into 
the last 3 ribbons/tubes of our fiber.  Example, if we were using a 144 
count cable, ribbons 10-12 will be spliced into.  After a few miles 
depending on density or distance, we will splice in another 1x32 
splitter to ribbons 10-12.  We just keep doing this until we run out of 
light budget.


We build to the lots passed, so we are not trying to optimize max usage 
per port.  Currently, we average about 50% utilization on our ports.






--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 11:38:39 AM, you wrote:


Maybe I need to review the math.

I was figuring on several small splitters along the route.  I didn't 
compare to a 1x32 in the cabinet because I figured if I brought every 
fiber back to the cabinet then I didn't save anything versus ethernet.



-- Original Message --
From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
To: "Adam Moffett" 
Sent: 2/12/2018 11:30:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT


Adam,

How far are you going?  We are pushing almost 20 miles on a 1x32 split. 
 Are you using one 1x32 or multiple smaller splitters?


--
Best regards,
Mark 

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Chuck McCown]

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT$100/house for AE

You pay for the splitters that fit the cabinet and cross box.  Some cost more 
than others depending on the sheet metal.  

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies 
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:44 PM
To: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

What would you house total be for AE?  Also $900 for 1x32 splitter, you need to 
find a better vendor.  The bare end PLC's are $14 the fancy connectorized ones 
are $40 at fs.com.  $11K for a 8 port card and $845 for a Laser, that's why we 
didn't/couldn't go with calix.
That $120.67 should be about $40-$50.

-- 
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 2:32:03 PM, you wrote:


 ONT Housing (Clam Shell) $   29.00  
ONT $ 215.00  
Unicam $   15.00  
Cyber Power $   81.00  
Cyber Install $ 110.00  
House Sub Total $ 450.00  

OLT $11K/8/32 $   42.97  
OIM $845/32 $   38.27  
Splitter $900/32 $   39.43  
DLC per Sub Subtotal $ 120.67  


Electronics/Sub Total Expense $ 570.67  


  From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
  To: Chuck McCown
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  Chuck,

  Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser and 
a 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.


  So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 per 
user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for electronics. 
 As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But, we are only 
talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we are debating 
fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure Chuck has some at 
least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any type of major upgrade 
for several years.

  But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to 
make sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not to 
mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently have 2 
customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON side.

  -- 
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.MyakkaTech.com

  --

  Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:


   When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested in 
cpe electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and outdoor 
cabinets.  

When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per 
customer.  
For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time convincing 
myself to do PON.  

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 11:09 AM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

PLC splitter in spice case doing full fusion splicing.

-- 
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 12:09:32 PM, you wrote:


 Are you using splitters in splice cases or in cross connect 
boxes?

  From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:55 AM
  To: Adam Moffett
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

  Adam,

  There are some ranging things you have to consider.  "The 
requirement
  when deploying ONTs are the maximum distance between two ONTs 
cannot
  exceed 20Km."

  The way we have done this is to reuse fibers as we travel 
down long stretches of roads between neighborhoods.

  We will deploy a 1x32 splitter in the field. We will splice 
that into the last 3 ribbons/tubes of our fiber.  Example, if we were using a 
144 count cable, ribbons 10-12 will be spliced into.  After a few miles 
depending on density or distance, we will splice in another 1x32 splitter to 
ribbons 10-12.  We just keep doing this until we run out of light budget.  

  We build to the lots passed, so we are not trying to optimize 
max usage per port.  Currently, we average about 50% utilization on our ports.





  -- 
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.MyakkaTech.com

  --

  Mon

Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT


Chuck,

What would you house total be for AE?  Also $900 for 1x32 splitter, you need to find a better vendor.  The bare end PLC's are $14 the fancy connectorized ones are $40 at fs.com.  $11K for a 8 port card and $845 for a Laser, that's why we didn't/couldn't go with calix.
That $120.67 should be about $40-$50.

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 2:32:03 PM, you wrote:







ONT Housing (Clam Shell)

 $           29.00 


ONT

 $         215.00 


Unicam

 $           15.00 


Cyber Power

 $           81.00 


Cyber Install

 $         110.00 


House Sub Total

 $         450.00 


 

 


OLT $11K/8/32

 $           42.97 


OIM $845/32

 $           38.27 


Splitter $900/32

 $           39.43 


DLC per Sub Subtotal

 $         120.67 


 

 


 

 


Electronics/Sub Total Expense

 $         570.67 


 
 
From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 12:29 PM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT
 
Chuck,

Dug up some of my costs on the GPON.  One port with a C+ class laser and a 1x32 splitter cost me about $1000.


So if I stick with my 50% utilization numbers, that gets me about $62 per user.  Plus an indoor ONT gets me about $200-$225 per customer for electronics.  As I increase my utilization, the numbers get better.  But, we are only talking a different in a few months on the ROI.  Remember we are debating fiber.  I have ONT's out there over 72 months old.  I'm sure Chuck has some at least 2 or 3 years older than that.  I don't plan on any type of major upgrade for several years.

But I must stress there is no right answer.  AE vs GPON.  You need to make sure you fully understand both options before making a decision.  Not to mention, you can run both.  We are setup to do AE,  We currently have 2 customers on the AE side for various reasons vs 2500 on the GPON side.

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 1:13:18 PM, you wrote:





When doing full throttle Calix GPON we have about $570 invested in cpe electronics, splitter, ont/olt/onu etc.  Everything but fiber and outdoor cabinets.  

When doing active Ethernet you can come in closer to $100 per customer.  
For non regulated greenfield, I am having a hard time convincing myself to do PON.  

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 11:09 AM
To: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Chuck,

PLC splitter in spice case doing full fusion splicing.

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 12:09:32 PM, you wrote:





Are you using splitters in splice cases or in cross connect boxes?

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 9:55 AM
To: Adam Moffett
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT

Adam,

There are some ranging things you have to consider.  "The requirement
when deploying ONTs are the maximum distance between two ONTs cannot
exceed 20Km."

The way we have done this is to reuse fibers as we travel down long stretches of roads between neighborhoods.

We will deploy a 1x32 splitter in the field. We will splice that into the last 3 ribbons/tubes of our fiber.  Example, if we were using a 144 count cable, ribbons 10-12 will be spliced into.  After a few miles depending on density or distance, we will splice in another 1x32 splitter to ribbons 10-12.  We just keep doing this until we run out of light budget.  

We build to the lots passed, so we are not trying to optimize max usage per port.  Currently, we average about 50% utilization on our ports.





-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Monday, February 12, 2018, 11:38:39 AM, you wrote:





Maybe I need to review the math.

I was figuring on several small splitters along the route.  I didn't compare to a 1x32 in the cabinet because I figured if I brought every fiber back to the cabinet then I didn't save anything versus ethernet.


-- Original Message --
From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
To: "Adam Moffett" 
Sent: 2/12/2018 11:30:46 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Outdoor PON OLT





Adam,

How far are you going?  We are pushing almost 20 miles on a 1x32 split.  Are you using one 1x32 or multiple smaller splitters?

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Sunday, February 11, 2018, 10:24:30 PM, you wrote:





I'm looking at rural areas (like a few houses per mile).  As I'm looking at hypothetical power budgets for PON, I'm finding that if I run the line down the road and put splitters on the pole I can split 5-6 times and then I'm gettin