Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
thanks for that… their name sounded familiar and now I know where from – AMS-IX peering exchange… Thanks, Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Roger Timmerman Sent: August 15, 2016 12:07 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear We have been using new and old DWDM gear from Adva Optical Networking on a span from Tremonton to St. George (~400 miles) in Utah with lots of add/drops along the way and several ROADMs. We're upgrading to their newer stuff (100G waves), but a lot of the older stuff (40x 10G) we have in place has been running for 5+ years without any reboot or problems. They are very cost-competitive but also a rock-solid platform. They get my recommendation for an active system. Roger On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Paul Stewart <p...@paulstewart.org <mailto:p...@paulstewart.org> > wrote: Cool .. very cool .. Thanks Faisal for your help as always .. Josh for your comments... appreciate it... Paul -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com> ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds Sent: August 14, 2016 3:02 PM To: af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear The fiberstore CWDM stuff is stupid cheap and just works. It's passive after all. I haven't used any of their DWDM equipment. On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <fai...@snappytelecom.net <mailto:fai...@snappytelecom.net> > wrote: > There are some excellent tutorials on this topic. > > Fiberstore has a very nice collection of them... > > http://www.fs.com/wdm-networking-cid-9.html > > Start with the tutorial on basics first and then build on it with others. > > http://www.fs.com/do-you-know-all-these-terminologies-of-wdm-technolog > y-aid-474.html > > > Here is another nice set of tutorials, clearly written.. > http://www.fiber-optic-tutorial.com/category/network-solutions/wdm-opt > ical-network/cwdm-dwdm-mux-demux > > ** The only difference conversationally between an "Active" vs "Passive" > CWDM/DWDM gear is as to who is doing the 'Standard Color' to "CWDM/DWDM" > optical conversions. > This is what consumes/requires external power. (aka, media converter > packaging) > > if you take a media converter and a passive mux/demux put it into one > box, that now becomes an active solution if you take the media converter out, > as a separate box, then the mux/demux is considered to be a passive solution. > > If the gear on both sides is under your control, then you can skip the > media converters and just put in the matching colored optics in your gear on > both sides Otherwise you deploy a media converter to convert between the > colored optics to standard optics... both in context of Ethernet as well as > TDM). > > In regards to distance and ring topology..there is no issue, just how you > design the fiber path... aka fiber light link budget and optic's receive > sensitivity.. just like RSSI on a Fixed Wireless link.. There are standard > figures you can use for link loss, each panel appox 1 to 1.5db, (e.g. if the > TX is 1-4dbm, and Rx sensitivity is 15dbm, you have approx 12-15db margin... > using two muxes each with a 4.5db insertion loss, gives you 3-5db for other > losses..but if your mux has an insertion loss of 6db then you will need > to look at longer range optics, (higher tx power and higher rx sensitivity, > resulting in more expensive optics). > > >>Any particular vendors of the passive MUX, colored optics etc that you prefer >>and have worked well? > I have been happy and comfortable in working with the FiberStore > (fs.com <http://fs.com> ) There are other vendors which others have worked > with. > > To me, after everything has clicked together in my understanding I now > look at a passive mux in the same manner I would look at a Spool of Ethernet > cable.. > i.e. look at the specs, and the product, the cost, the name of the mfg. makes > little difference other then consistency in delivery and standing behind the > delivered product for the first 30/60 days. > >> It sounds like the costs are mainly the electronics to take the >> colored paths and "convert" them back to normal wavelength if I'm not >> missing something... > > Yep, bingo you are starting to understand it... > > > And most important, don't forget to buy a Light Meter, it does not have to be > anything fancy even a cheap one ($50) is good enough for deployment purposes, > since you can get relative information from it. > > Regards. > > Faisal Imtiaz > Snappy Internet & Telecom > 7266 SW 48 Street > Miami, FL 33155 > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 <tel:305%20663%205518%20x%
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
We have been using new and old DWDM gear from Adva Optical Networking on a span from Tremonton to St. George (~400 miles) in Utah with lots of add/drops along the way and several ROADMs. We're upgrading to their newer stuff (100G waves), but a lot of the older stuff (40x 10G) we have in place has been running for 5+ years without any reboot or problems. They are very cost-competitive but also a rock-solid platform. They get my recommendation for an active system. Roger On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Paul Stewart <p...@paulstewart.org> wrote: > Cool .. very cool .. > > Thanks Faisal for your help as always .. Josh for your comments... > appreciate it... > > Paul > > > -Original Message- > From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds > Sent: August 14, 2016 3:02 PM > To: af@afmug.com > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > > The fiberstore CWDM stuff is stupid cheap and just works. It's passive > after all. I haven't used any of their DWDM equipment. > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <fai...@snappytelecom.net> > wrote: > > There are some excellent tutorials on this topic. > > > > Fiberstore has a very nice collection of them... > > > > http://www.fs.com/wdm-networking-cid-9.html > > > > Start with the tutorial on basics first and then build on it with others. > > > > http://www.fs.com/do-you-know-all-these-terminologies-of-wdm-technolog > > y-aid-474.html > > > > > > Here is another nice set of tutorials, clearly written.. > > http://www.fiber-optic-tutorial.com/category/network-solutions/wdm-opt > > ical-network/cwdm-dwdm-mux-demux > > > > ** The only difference conversationally between an "Active" vs "Passive" > CWDM/DWDM gear is as to who is doing the 'Standard Color' to "CWDM/DWDM" > optical conversions. > > This is what consumes/requires external power. (aka, media converter > > packaging) > > > > if you take a media converter and a passive mux/demux put it into one > > box, that now becomes an active solution if you take the media converter > out, as a separate box, then the mux/demux is considered to be a passive > solution. > > > > If the gear on both sides is under your control, then you can skip the > > media converters and just put in the matching colored optics in your > gear on both sides Otherwise you deploy a media converter to convert > between the colored optics to standard optics... both in context of > Ethernet as well as TDM). > > > > In regards to distance and ring topology..there is no issue, just > how you design the fiber path... aka fiber light link budget and optic's > receive sensitivity.. just like RSSI on a Fixed Wireless link.. There are > standard figures you can use for link loss, each panel appox 1 to 1.5db, > (e.g. if the TX is 1-4dbm, and Rx sensitivity is 15dbm, you have approx > 12-15db margin... using two muxes each with a 4.5db insertion loss, gives > you 3-5db for other losses..but if your mux has an insertion loss of > 6db then you will need to look at longer range optics, (higher tx power and > higher rx sensitivity, resulting in more expensive optics). > > > > > >>Any particular vendors of the passive MUX, colored optics etc that you > prefer and have worked well? > > I have been happy and comfortable in working with the FiberStore > > (fs.com) There are other vendors which others have worked with. > > > > To me, after everything has clicked together in my understanding I > now look at a passive mux in the same manner I would look at a Spool of > Ethernet cable.. > > i.e. look at the specs, and the product, the cost, the name of the mfg. > makes little difference other then consistency in delivery and standing > behind the delivered product for the first 30/60 days. > > > >> It sounds like the costs are mainly the electronics to take the > >> colored paths and "convert" them back to normal wavelength if I'm not > missing something... > > > > Yep, bingo you are starting to understand it... > > > > > > And most important, don't forget to buy a Light Meter, it does not have > to be anything fancy even a cheap one ($50) is good enough for deployment > purposes, since you can get relative information from it. > > > > Regards. > > > > Faisal Imtiaz > > Snappy Internet & Telecom > > 7266 SW 48 Street > > Miami, FL 33155 > > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 > > > > Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net > > > > - Original Message - > >> From: "Paul Stewart&
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
Cool .. very cool .. Thanks Faisal for your help as always .. Josh for your comments... appreciate it... Paul -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds Sent: August 14, 2016 3:02 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear The fiberstore CWDM stuff is stupid cheap and just works. It's passive after all. I haven't used any of their DWDM equipment. On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <fai...@snappytelecom.net> wrote: > There are some excellent tutorials on this topic. > > Fiberstore has a very nice collection of them... > > http://www.fs.com/wdm-networking-cid-9.html > > Start with the tutorial on basics first and then build on it with others. > > http://www.fs.com/do-you-know-all-these-terminologies-of-wdm-technolog > y-aid-474.html > > > Here is another nice set of tutorials, clearly written.. > http://www.fiber-optic-tutorial.com/category/network-solutions/wdm-opt > ical-network/cwdm-dwdm-mux-demux > > ** The only difference conversationally between an "Active" vs "Passive" > CWDM/DWDM gear is as to who is doing the 'Standard Color' to "CWDM/DWDM" > optical conversions. > This is what consumes/requires external power. (aka, media converter > packaging) > > if you take a media converter and a passive mux/demux put it into one > box, that now becomes an active solution if you take the media converter out, > as a separate box, then the mux/demux is considered to be a passive solution. > > If the gear on both sides is under your control, then you can skip the > media converters and just put in the matching colored optics in your gear on > both sides Otherwise you deploy a media converter to convert between the > colored optics to standard optics... both in context of Ethernet as well as > TDM). > > In regards to distance and ring topology..there is no issue, just how you > design the fiber path... aka fiber light link budget and optic's receive > sensitivity.. just like RSSI on a Fixed Wireless link.. There are standard > figures you can use for link loss, each panel appox 1 to 1.5db, (e.g. if the > TX is 1-4dbm, and Rx sensitivity is 15dbm, you have approx 12-15db margin... > using two muxes each with a 4.5db insertion loss, gives you 3-5db for other > losses..but if your mux has an insertion loss of 6db then you will need > to look at longer range optics, (higher tx power and higher rx sensitivity, > resulting in more expensive optics). > > >>Any particular vendors of the passive MUX, colored optics etc that you prefer >>and have worked well? > I have been happy and comfortable in working with the FiberStore > (fs.com) There are other vendors which others have worked with. > > To me, after everything has clicked together in my understanding I now > look at a passive mux in the same manner I would look at a Spool of Ethernet > cable.. > i.e. look at the specs, and the product, the cost, the name of the mfg. makes > little difference other then consistency in delivery and standing behind the > delivered product for the first 30/60 days. > >> It sounds like the costs are mainly the electronics to take the >> colored paths and "convert" them back to normal wavelength if I'm not >> missing something... > > Yep, bingo you are starting to understand it... > > > And most important, don't forget to buy a Light Meter, it does not have to be > anything fancy even a cheap one ($50) is good enough for deployment purposes, > since you can get relative information from it. > > Regards. > > Faisal Imtiaz > Snappy Internet & Telecom > 7266 SW 48 Street > Miami, FL 33155 > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 > > Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net > > - Original Message - >> From: "Paul Stewart" <p...@paulstewart.org> >> To: af@afmug.com >> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 2:07:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > >> Thanks very much - much appreciate this ... >> >> Optical stuff has always been a "weak area" for me ... worked around >> them for years but 'spoiled' that we added X, Y, and Z per vendor >> recommendations along with a web interface and things just worked ;) >> >> My comments re: colored optics though were very specific to what I >> consider an "active" solution. A solution where we wouldn't have to >> put the colored optics specifically into switches on each side for >> example - realizing that the optics in the "solution" do the actual >> work .. I'm seen some passive systems where you have to put colored >> optics into y
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
The fiberstore CWDM stuff is stupid cheap and just works. It's passive after all. I haven't used any of their DWDM equipment. On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <fai...@snappytelecom.net> wrote: > There are some excellent tutorials on this topic. > > Fiberstore has a very nice collection of them... > > http://www.fs.com/wdm-networking-cid-9.html > > Start with the tutorial on basics first and then build on it with others. > > http://www.fs.com/do-you-know-all-these-terminologies-of-wdm-technology-aid-474.html > > > Here is another nice set of tutorials, clearly written.. > http://www.fiber-optic-tutorial.com/category/network-solutions/wdm-optical-network/cwdm-dwdm-mux-demux > > ** The only difference conversationally between an "Active" vs "Passive" > CWDM/DWDM gear is as to who is doing the 'Standard Color' to "CWDM/DWDM" > optical conversions. > This is what consumes/requires external power. (aka, media converter > packaging) > > if you take a media converter and a passive mux/demux put it into one box, > that now becomes an active solution > if you take the media converter out, as a separate box, then the mux/demux is > considered to be a passive solution. > > If the gear on both sides is under your control, then you can skip the media > converters and just put in the matching colored optics in your gear on both > sides > Otherwise you deploy a media converter to convert between the colored optics > to standard optics... both in context of Ethernet as well as TDM). > > In regards to distance and ring topology..there is no issue, just how you > design the fiber path... aka fiber light link budget and optic's receive > sensitivity.. just like RSSI on a Fixed Wireless link.. There are standard > figures you can use for link loss, each panel appox 1 to 1.5db, (e.g. if the > TX is 1-4dbm, and Rx sensitivity is 15dbm, you have approx 12-15db margin... > using two muxes each with a 4.5db insertion loss, gives you 3-5db for other > losses..but if your mux has an insertion loss of 6db then you will need > to look at longer range optics, (higher tx power and higher rx sensitivity, > resulting in more expensive optics). > > >>Any particular vendors of the passive MUX, colored optics etc that you prefer >>and have worked well? > I have been happy and comfortable in working with the FiberStore (fs.com) > There are other vendors which others have worked with. > > To me, after everything has clicked together in my understanding I now > look at a passive mux in the same manner I would look at a Spool of Ethernet > cable.. > i.e. look at the specs, and the product, the cost, the name of the mfg. makes > little difference other then consistency in delivery and standing behind the > delivered product for the first 30/60 days. > >> It sounds like the costs are mainly the electronics to take the colored >> paths and "convert" them back to normal wavelength if I'm not >> missing something... > > Yep, bingo you are starting to understand it... > > > And most important, don't forget to buy a Light Meter, it does not have to be > anything fancy even a cheap one ($50) is good enough for deployment purposes, > since you can get relative information from it. > > Regards. > > Faisal Imtiaz > Snappy Internet & Telecom > 7266 SW 48 Street > Miami, FL 33155 > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 > > Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net > > - Original Message - >> From: "Paul Stewart" <p...@paulstewart.org> >> To: af@afmug.com >> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 2:07:01 PM >> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > >> Thanks very much - much appreciate this ... >> >> Optical stuff has always been a "weak area" for me ... worked around them for >> years but 'spoiled' that we added X, Y, and Z per vendor recommendations >> along >> with a web interface and things just worked ;) >> >> My comments re: colored optics though were very specific to what I consider >> an >> "active" solution. A solution where we wouldn't have to put the colored >> optics >> specifically into switches on each side for example - realizing that the >> optics >> in the "solution" do the actual work .. I'm seen some passive systems where >> you >> have to put colored optics into your network gear for example. Those systems >> were pretty cool though in the sense where you didn't have to power them at >> all >> - but that's not what we want to accomplish here .. a number of these fibers >> we >> don't "
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
There are some excellent tutorials on this topic. Fiberstore has a very nice collection of them... http://www.fs.com/wdm-networking-cid-9.html Start with the tutorial on basics first and then build on it with others. http://www.fs.com/do-you-know-all-these-terminologies-of-wdm-technology-aid-474.html Here is another nice set of tutorials, clearly written.. http://www.fiber-optic-tutorial.com/category/network-solutions/wdm-optical-network/cwdm-dwdm-mux-demux ** The only difference conversationally between an "Active" vs "Passive" CWDM/DWDM gear is as to who is doing the 'Standard Color' to "CWDM/DWDM" optical conversions. This is what consumes/requires external power. (aka, media converter packaging) if you take a media converter and a passive mux/demux put it into one box, that now becomes an active solution if you take the media converter out, as a separate box, then the mux/demux is considered to be a passive solution. If the gear on both sides is under your control, then you can skip the media converters and just put in the matching colored optics in your gear on both sides Otherwise you deploy a media converter to convert between the colored optics to standard optics... both in context of Ethernet as well as TDM). In regards to distance and ring topology..there is no issue, just how you design the fiber path... aka fiber light link budget and optic's receive sensitivity.. just like RSSI on a Fixed Wireless link.. There are standard figures you can use for link loss, each panel appox 1 to 1.5db, (e.g. if the TX is 1-4dbm, and Rx sensitivity is 15dbm, you have approx 12-15db margin... using two muxes each with a 4.5db insertion loss, gives you 3-5db for other losses..but if your mux has an insertion loss of 6db then you will need to look at longer range optics, (higher tx power and higher rx sensitivity, resulting in more expensive optics). >Any particular vendors of the passive MUX, colored optics etc that you prefer >and have worked well? I have been happy and comfortable in working with the FiberStore (fs.com) There are other vendors which others have worked with. To me, after everything has clicked together in my understanding I now look at a passive mux in the same manner I would look at a Spool of Ethernet cable.. i.e. look at the specs, and the product, the cost, the name of the mfg. makes little difference other then consistency in delivery and standing behind the delivered product for the first 30/60 days. > It sounds like the costs are mainly the electronics to take the colored paths > and "convert" them back to normal wavelength if I'm not > missing something... Yep, bingo you are starting to understand it... And most important, don't forget to buy a Light Meter, it does not have to be anything fancy even a cheap one ($50) is good enough for deployment purposes, since you can get relative information from it. Regards. Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net - Original Message - > From: "Paul Stewart" <p...@paulstewart.org> > To: af@afmug.com > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 2:07:01 PM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > Thanks very much - much appreciate this ... > > Optical stuff has always been a "weak area" for me ... worked around them for > years but 'spoiled' that we added X, Y, and Z per vendor recommendations along > with a web interface and things just worked ;) > > My comments re: colored optics though were very specific to what I consider an > "active" solution. A solution where we wouldn't have to put the colored > optics > specifically into switches on each side for example - realizing that the > optics > in the "solution" do the actual work .. I'm seen some passive systems where > you > have to put colored optics into your network gear for example. Those systems > were pretty cool though in the sense where you didn't have to power them at > all > - but that's not what we want to accomplish here .. a number of these fibers > we > don't "own" both ends for example. Using an 'active' solution we can jump > into > the middle of the fiber no problem but for handoff to the network itself we > need "standard" optics in place. > > For distance, this two locations with two paths so a ring topology one > path > is 1.1KM and the other path is approximately 3.2KM in length (geographic > diversity between locations, separate cable entranceways, separate risers etc) > so nice short run. Today we are just using 10KM single mode optics but > burning > fibers at a rapid rate > > Any particular vendors of the passive MUX, colored optics etc t
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
Thanks very much - much appreciate this ...
Optical stuff has always been a "weak area" for me ... worked around them for
years but 'spoiled' that we added X, Y, and Z per vendor recommendations along
with a web interface and things just worked ;)
My comments re: colored optics though were very specific to what I consider an
"active" solution. A solution where we wouldn't have to put the colored optics
specifically into switches on each side for example - realizing that the optics
in the "solution" do the actual work .. I'm seen some passive systems where you
have to put colored optics into your network gear for example. Those systems
were pretty cool though in the sense where you didn't have to power them at all
- but that's not what we want to accomplish here .. a number of these fibers we
don't "own" both ends for example. Using an 'active' solution we can jump into
the middle of the fiber no problem but for handoff to the network itself we
need "standard" optics in place.
For distance, this two locations with two paths so a ring topology one
path is 1.1KM and the other path is approximately 3.2KM in length (geographic
diversity between locations, separate cable entranceways, separate risers etc)
so nice short run. Today we are just using 10KM single mode optics but burning
fibers at a rapid rate
Any particular vendors of the passive MUX, colored optics etc that you prefer
and have worked well? It sounds like the costs are mainly the electronics to
take the colored paths and "convert" them back to normal wavelength if I'm not
missing something...
Again - thanks ... appreciate this and really like the "build your own"
approach ... with savings expected it makes it easier to look at sparing etc
too
Paul
-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: August 14, 2016 1:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
I just want to drill down, for the sake of an in-depth conversation, not just
for you but for others who are lurking as well...
see my answers inline below:-
Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
- Original Message -
> From: "Paul Stewart" <p...@paulstewart.org>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 12:32:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
> Thanks for that
>
> We want something managed and can be monitored ...
There is no difference, or anything lost, in this arena, between an 'Active
Solution' vs a "designed/yourself passive" solution.
> modular in nature if possible.
There is no "Canned solution" that can beat the a 'designed passive solution'
in this area.
> Thinking active as the "endpoints" (routers and/or switches) we do not want
> to utilize colored optics nor can we support it in some situations ...
> so MUX for sure.
>
I think you are mis-understand how this actually works/gets implemented...
All CWDM/DWDM solutions have a passive fiber Mux/Demux in the box, the only
difference is what you see (out side the box) as optic options.
e.g. each side just looks like this.. (passive mux/demux)---> {(Colored
optics <--> SMF Optics)in a managed Media Converter}
(One can use a managed modular media converter or a managed switch for
this).
> While we operate a WISP, this is part of our core network in one city
> between two data centers so we want high quality
There is nothing 'lost' or 'gained' in this area, only the perception of what
is under the hood.
> with a lower than we're used to price tag :) We would start with
> 40x10G likely and see how it goes
Be prepaid for some serious pain to the wallet for lots of marketing BS to
justify that from those selling canned solutions.
Also pay attention to the Cost and power range of the required optics, (do you
power budget calcs due to insertion loss)
My suggestion would be as follows:-
For a moment, forget about which solution you are going to buy, take a bit of
time to 'engineer' a passive solution, and just pencil in the figures, for all
the components...
Use this as a baseline to value the solution you are actually looking to buy,
or negotiate for...
(when I do such an exercise, 40c DWDM mux/demux units are running less than $2k
each, low insertion loss units(3-4.5db), 100mhz channels, Colored optics (15db
margin) are under $300 each. You can add 10g SFP+/SFP+ media converter for each
side ($900each) or you can add your favorite brand of 10g 48 port switches to
each side ...(running anything between $1000 to $1500 on the 2ndary markets).
This would help in establish the value proposition and make you comfortable
with what you end up going with.
>
>
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
I just want to drill down, for the sake of an in-depth conversation, not just
for you but for others who are lurking as well...
see my answers inline below:-
Faisal Imtiaz
Snappy Internet & Telecom
7266 SW 48 Street
Miami, FL 33155
Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
- Original Message -
> From: "Paul Stewart" <p...@paulstewart.org>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 12:32:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
> Thanks for that
>
> We want something managed and can be monitored ...
There is no difference, or anything lost, in this arena, between an 'Active
Solution' vs a "designed/yourself passive" solution.
> modular in nature if possible.
There is no "Canned solution" that can beat the a 'designed passive solution'
in this area.
> Thinking active as the "endpoints" (routers and/or switches) we do not want
> to utilize colored optics nor can we support it in some situations ...
> so MUX for sure.
>
I think you are mis-understand how this actually works/gets implemented...
All CWDM/DWDM solutions have a passive fiber Mux/Demux in the box, the only
difference is what you see (out side the box) as optic options.
e.g. each side just looks like this.. (passive mux/demux)---> {(Colored
optics <--> SMF Optics)in a managed Media Converter}
(One can use a managed modular media converter or a managed switch for
this).
> While we operate a WISP, this is part of our core network in one city between
> two data centers so we want high quality
There is nothing 'lost' or 'gained' in this area, only the perception of what
is under the hood.
> with a lower than we're used to price tag :) We would start with 40x10G
> likely and see how it goes
Be prepaid for some serious pain to the wallet for lots of marketing BS to
justify that from those selling canned solutions.
Also pay attention to the Cost and power range of the required optics, (do you
power budget calcs due to insertion loss)
My suggestion would be as follows:-
For a moment, forget about which solution you are going to buy, take a bit of
time to 'engineer' a passive solution, and just pencil in the figures, for all
the components...
Use this as a baseline to value the solution you are actually looking to buy,
or negotiate for...
(when I do such an exercise, 40c DWDM mux/demux units are running less than $2k
each, low insertion loss units(3-4.5db), 100mhz channels, Colored optics (15db
margin) are under $300 each. You can add 10g SFP+/SFP+ media converter for each
side ($900each) or you can add your favorite brand of 10g 48 port switches to
each side ...(running anything between $1000 to $1500 on the 2ndary markets).
This would help in establish the value proposition and make you comfortable
with what you end up going with.
>
>
> Thanks!
> Paul
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
> Sent: August 14, 2016 11:16 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
>
> Technically speaking, there is no magic to CWDM or DWDM solution
> You can go with a 'canned' solution from folks such as Ciena/Cisco/etc etc etc
> or you can create your own with the required pieces, in the simplest form all
> one needs is couple of passive Mux/Demux units, colored optics and a
> Switch/Media Converters (ones that you can read the light levels from).
>
> Depending on length of the fiber, you may or may not need anything more (such
> as
> regen units, amps etc). If you are going to design a solution using passive
> Mux/Demux do pay attention to the insertion loss figures on the different
> products.
>
> In my opinion, doing a CWDM/DWDM design calculations for a WiSP should be
> fairly
> easy to understand.
>
> The benefit in designing your own solution, you gain a much better
> understanding
> on what you can do and what you cannot do... (e.g. do you know that you can
> potentially stack a DWDM solution right behind a CWDM passive mux ? and
> you will end up with a much more flexible solution, at a fraction of the cost
> of a comparable canned solution.
>
> We did a CWDM (8ch) passive solution, along with colored optics, 10g Switches
> between 4 different Data Center, for under $12k a couple of years back.
> They way we optimized our design for initial cost, while maintaining the
> ability
> to expand my adding another CWDM or DWDM mux in the future.
>
> (We went with gear from Fiberstore, we did consult them with our solution, and
> they offered us Mux/DeMux units with even lower insertion loss that those
> listed on their website for a slight premium, which in our case was well worth
> it)
>
>
> Fais
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
Thanks for that We want something managed and can be monitored ... modular in nature if possible. Thinking active as the "endpoints" (routers and/or switches) we do not want to utilize colored optics nor can we support it in some situations ... so MUX for sure. While we operate a WISP, this is part of our core network in one city between two data centers so we want high quality with a lower than we're used to price tag :) We would start with 40x10G likely and see how it goes Thanks! Paul -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz Sent: August 14, 2016 11:16 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear Technically speaking, there is no magic to CWDM or DWDM solution You can go with a 'canned' solution from folks such as Ciena/Cisco/etc etc etc or you can create your own with the required pieces, in the simplest form all one needs is couple of passive Mux/Demux units, colored optics and a Switch/Media Converters (ones that you can read the light levels from). Depending on length of the fiber, you may or may not need anything more (such as regen units, amps etc). If you are going to design a solution using passive Mux/Demux do pay attention to the insertion loss figures on the different products. In my opinion, doing a CWDM/DWDM design calculations for a WiSP should be fairly easy to understand. The benefit in designing your own solution, you gain a much better understanding on what you can do and what you cannot do... (e.g. do you know that you can potentially stack a DWDM solution right behind a CWDM passive mux ? and you will end up with a much more flexible solution, at a fraction of the cost of a comparable canned solution. We did a CWDM (8ch) passive solution, along with colored optics, 10g Switches between 4 different Data Center, for under $12k a couple of years back. They way we optimized our design for initial cost, while maintaining the ability to expand my adding another CWDM or DWDM mux in the future. (We went with gear from Fiberstore, we did consult them with our solution, and they offered us Mux/DeMux units with even lower insertion loss that those listed on their website for a slight premium, which in our case was well worth it) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net - Original Message - > From: "Justin Wilson" <li...@mtin.net> > To: af@afmug.com > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 10:52:02 AM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > Are you looking for active or passive? > > We just replaced a failing Ciena Mux with an 18 channel passive mux > for a data center client. Ours was CWDM, but they make a DWDM > version. Total cost was under 5 grand, including spares. Ciena > wanted 24k to update the service contract, update software, and troubleshoot > an alarm state. > > Justin Wilson > j...@mtin.net > > --- > http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO > xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth > > http://www.midwest-ix.com COO/Chairman Internet Exchange - Peering - > Distributed Fabric > >> On Aug 14, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: >> >> I have always used Cyan. >> >> -----Original Message- From: Paul Stewart >> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 7:30 AM >> To: Animal Farm >> Subject: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear >> >> For those folks doing DWDM on fiber, whats your preferred equipment and why? >> >> We currently use BTI equipment which works extremely well but it’s >> priced in the same ballpark as Ciena, Nortel, Cisco etc … quite >> expensive to deploy. Hoping to find something more economical but >> just as reliable? By reliable I mean that it’s deployed for years >> without having to do anything service impacting to it. For this particular >> deployment I’m thinking of, ROADM isn’t important >> neither. Prefer active solution vs passive. CWDM would even be ok at this >> point to consider … >> >> Basically looking at ways to cut down on 10G fibers between two >> physical locations (the fiber is leased) >> >> thanks, >> Paul
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
Active is what I'm thinking .. -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Justin Wilson Sent: August 14, 2016 10:52 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear Are you looking for active or passive? We just replaced a failing Ciena Mux with an 18 channel passive mux for a data center client. Ours was CWDM, but they make a DWDM version. Total cost was under 5 grand, including spares. Ciena wanted 24k to update the service contract, update software, and troubleshoot an alarm state. Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net --- http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth http://www.midwest-ix.com COO/Chairman Internet Exchange - Peering - Distributed Fabric > On Aug 14, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > > I have always used Cyan. > > -Original Message- From: Paul Stewart > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 7:30 AM > To: Animal Farm > Subject: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > > For those folks doing DWDM on fiber, whats your preferred equipment and why? > > We currently use BTI equipment which works extremely well but it’s priced in > the same ballpark as Ciena, Nortel, Cisco etc … quite expensive to deploy. > Hoping to find something more economical but just as reliable? By reliable I > mean that it’s deployed for years without having to do anything service > impacting to it. For this particular deployment I’m thinking of, ROADM isn’t > important neither. Prefer active solution vs passive. CWDM would even be > ok at this point to consider … > > Basically looking at ways to cut down on 10G fibers between two physical > locations (the fiber is leased) > > thanks, > Paul >
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
Technically speaking, there is no magic to CWDM or DWDM solution You can go with a 'canned' solution from folks such as Ciena/Cisco/etc etc etc or you can create your own with the required pieces, in the simplest form all one needs is couple of passive Mux/Demux units, colored optics and a Switch/Media Converters (ones that you can read the light levels from). Depending on length of the fiber, you may or may not need anything more (such as regen units, amps etc). If you are going to design a solution using passive Mux/Demux do pay attention to the insertion loss figures on the different products. In my opinion, doing a CWDM/DWDM design calculations for a WiSP should be fairly easy to understand. The benefit in designing your own solution, you gain a much better understanding on what you can do and what you cannot do... (e.g. do you know that you can potentially stack a DWDM solution right behind a CWDM passive mux ? and you will end up with a much more flexible solution, at a fraction of the cost of a comparable canned solution. We did a CWDM (8ch) passive solution, along with colored optics, 10g Switches between 4 different Data Center, for under $12k a couple of years back. They way we optimized our design for initial cost, while maintaining the ability to expand my adding another CWDM or DWDM mux in the future. (We went with gear from Fiberstore, we did consult them with our solution, and they offered us Mux/DeMux units with even lower insertion loss that those listed on their website for a slight premium, which in our case was well worth it) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet & Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, FL 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net - Original Message - > From: "Justin Wilson" <li...@mtin.net> > To: af@afmug.com > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 10:52:02 AM > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > Are you looking for active or passive? > > We just replaced a failing Ciena Mux with an 18 channel passive mux for a data > center client. Ours was CWDM, but they make a DWDM version. Total cost was > under 5 grand, including spares. Ciena wanted 24k to update the service > contract, update software, and troubleshoot an alarm state. > > Justin Wilson > j...@mtin.net > > --- > http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO > xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth > > http://www.midwest-ix.com COO/Chairman > Internet Exchange - Peering - Distributed Fabric > >> On Aug 14, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: >> >> I have always used Cyan. >> >> -Original Message- From: Paul Stewart >> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 7:30 AM >> To: Animal Farm >> Subject: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear >> >> For those folks doing DWDM on fiber, whats your preferred equipment and why? >> >> We currently use BTI equipment which works extremely well but it’s priced in >> the >> same ballpark as Ciena, Nortel, Cisco etc … quite expensive to deploy. Hoping >> to find something more economical but just as reliable? By reliable I mean >> that it’s deployed for years without having to do anything service impacting >> to >> it. For this particular deployment I’m thinking of, ROADM isn’t important >> neither. Prefer active solution vs passive. CWDM would even be ok at this >> point to consider … >> >> Basically looking at ways to cut down on 10G fibers between two physical >> locations (the fiber is leased) >> >> thanks, >> Paul
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
Are you looking for active or passive? We just replaced a failing Ciena Mux with an 18 channel passive mux for a data center client. Ours was CWDM, but they make a DWDM version. Total cost was under 5 grand, including spares. Ciena wanted 24k to update the service contract, update software, and troubleshoot an alarm state. Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net --- http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth http://www.midwest-ix.com COO/Chairman Internet Exchange - Peering - Distributed Fabric > On Aug 14, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Chuck McCown <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > > I have always used Cyan. > > -Original Message- From: Paul Stewart > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 7:30 AM > To: Animal Farm > Subject: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > > For those folks doing DWDM on fiber, whats your preferred equipment and why? > > We currently use BTI equipment which works extremely well but it’s priced in > the same ballpark as Ciena, Nortel, Cisco etc … quite expensive to deploy. > Hoping to find something more economical but just as reliable? By reliable I > mean that it’s deployed for years without having to do anything service > impacting to it. For this particular deployment I’m thinking of, ROADM isn’t > important neither. Prefer active solution vs passive. CWDM would even be > ok at this point to consider … > > Basically looking at ways to cut down on 10G fibers between two physical > locations (the fiber is leased) > > thanks, > Paul >
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
Apparently that's now BluePlanet, a division of Ciena. On Aug 14, 2016 7:41 AM, "Chuck McCown" <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote: > I have always used Cyan. > > -Original Message- From: Paul Stewart > Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 7:30 AM > To: Animal Farm > Subject: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear > > For those folks doing DWDM on fiber, whats your preferred equipment and > why? > > We currently use BTI equipment which works extremely well but it’s priced > in the same ballpark as Ciena, Nortel, Cisco etc … quite expensive to > deploy. Hoping to find something more economical but just as reliable? By > reliable I mean that it’s deployed for years without having to do anything > service impacting to it. For this particular deployment I’m thinking of, > ROADM isn’t important neither. Prefer active solution vs passive. CWDM > would even be ok at this point to consider … > > Basically looking at ways to cut down on 10G fibers between two physical > locations (the fiber is leased) > > thanks, > Paul > >
Re: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear
I have always used Cyan. -Original Message- From: Paul Stewart Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 7:30 AM To: Animal Farm Subject: [AFMUG] DWDM Gear For those folks doing DWDM on fiber, whats your preferred equipment and why? We currently use BTI equipment which works extremely well but it’s priced in the same ballpark as Ciena, Nortel, Cisco etc … quite expensive to deploy. Hoping to find something more economical but just as reliable? By reliable I mean that it’s deployed for years without having to do anything service impacting to it. For this particular deployment I’m thinking of, ROADM isn’t important neither. Prefer active solution vs passive. CWDM would even be ok at this point to consider … Basically looking at ways to cut down on 10G fibers between two physical locations (the fiber is leased) thanks, Paul
[AFMUG] DWDM Gear
For those folks doing DWDM on fiber, whats your preferred equipment and why? We currently use BTI equipment which works extremely well but it’s priced in the same ballpark as Ciena, Nortel, Cisco etc … quite expensive to deploy. Hoping to find something more economical but just as reliable? By reliable I mean that it’s deployed for years without having to do anything service impacting to it. For this particular deployment I’m thinking of, ROADM isn’t important neither. Prefer active solution vs passive. CWDM would even be ok at this point to consider … Basically looking at ways to cut down on 10G fibers between two physical locations (the fiber is leased) thanks, Paul
