Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Josh Reynolds]

edit: I see now the developer will be doing the trenching and conduit...

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
> Might get lucky enough in the development process to trench it in.
>
> On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>> I was quoting hiring it done and some boring.  If the developer is supplying
>> the ditches, yeah, I would agree with  your pricing.
>>
>> From: Chuck Hogg
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 1:32 PM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Cc: memb...@wispa.org
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>
>> We did one like this last year.  Cheapest ever when it's green field.  Most
>> people don't deploy like us for small builds, but for very cheap you can
>> knock this out easily.  No offense to Chuck M, but I would probably be
>> budgeting about $50k or less for this project.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Chuck
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
>>> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
>>> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done
>>> right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching and
>>> conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Josh Reynolds]

Might get lucky enough in the development process to trench it in.

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
> I was quoting hiring it done and some boring.  If the developer is supplying
> the ditches, yeah, I would agree with  your pricing.
>
> From: Chuck Hogg
> Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 1:32 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Cc: memb...@wispa.org
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>
> We did one like this last year.  Cheapest ever when it's green field.  Most
> people don't deploy like us for small builds, but for very cheap you can
> knock this out easily.  No offense to Chuck M, but I would probably be
> budgeting about $50k or less for this project.
>
> Regards,
> Chuck
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
>> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
>> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done
>> right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching and
>> conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Chuck McCown]

I was quoting hiring it done and some boring.  If the developer is supplying 
the ditches, yeah, I would agree with  your pricing.  

From: Chuck Hogg 
Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2016 1:32 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Cc: memb...@wispa.org 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

We did one like this last year.  Cheapest ever when it's green field.  Most 
people don't deploy like us for small builds, but for very cheap you can knock 
this out easily.  No offense to Chuck M, but I would probably be budgeting 
about $50k or less for this project.

Regards,
Chuck

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

  Hello, 

  We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50 acre 
lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on this list 
who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done right from 
the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching and conduit etc., we 
will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.

  Best regards,

  Sean

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Chuck Hogg]

We did one like this last year.  Cheapest ever when it's green field.  Most
people don't deploy like us for small builds, but for very cheap you can
knock this out easily.  No offense to Chuck M, but I would probably be
budgeting about $50k or less for this project.

Regards,
Chuck

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service
> etc.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sean
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Mike Hammett]

Sprint put 100G DWDM on some of their 1980s build, maybe even some of those 
400G super channels. 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Eric Kuhnke"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 5:34:56 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build 


I don't disagree with you but I do wonder what the ultimate life of modern 
singlemode fiber (G.652.D) is, assuming it's not physically damaged. Could be 
more than 100 years? 

The oldest outside plant fiber that's still currently in use is, as far as I 
know, some of the 9/125 that was installed between Boston and New York in the 
early 1980s. But that stuff is very different from even a modern singlemode 
from the dotcom 1.0 boom times around 1998/1999. A significant amount of the 
MFN/Abovenet/360/Zayo fiber in Seattle dates from that time, right around the 
year 2000, and there's no problem using it with modern DWDM systems. 





On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Bruce Robertson < br...@pooh.com > wrote: 



That's a nice developer! By them lots of drinks and steak dinners. If you don't 
have the $150-$200k handy, beg, borrow or steal it. Preferably not borrow... 
that hurts your return for the term of the loan. But it's still worth it for an 
asset that will be performing 100 years from now. 


On 5/3/16 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett wrote: 


As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and not put in 
copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be pretty high because their 
other option will be our wireless service. 


Sean 


On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 






You will probably get 80% if you are the best value. 
And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service. No CPE, no 
enclosure, no drop, no sfp. 

Say $2500/customer. 

Say you clear $40/month. 

40*12=480 
480/2500 = 19.2% return from day one forever. 

What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that? 




From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build 


That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate... 





On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman < j...@imaginenetworksllc.com > 
wrote: 



1630/65 = 25 

Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power. The next 25 months and 
the 25 months after that... 





Josh Luthman 
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St 
Suite 1337 
Troy, OH 45373 

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > wrote: 



I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per unit 
served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be far, far 
less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years a 
significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI? 




On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown < ch...@wbmfg.com > wrote: 








Figure one handhole per 2 homes. So 46 handholes. 

1.25” between all handholes. 
.75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops. 
You can run 144 count fiber for spares. 
Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs. 

You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics, batteries. 
It will need power. 

To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each dwelling 
with a media converter at the ends. 
Or put in Calix. You can go GPON or Active. With something this small, I would 
do Active. 

You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done. 




From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM 
To: af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org 
Subject: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build 


Hello, 

We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50 acre 
lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH. Is there anyone on this list 
who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done right from 
the get go? The developer will be doing all the trenching and conduit etc., we 
will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc. 

Best regards, 

Sean 











!DSPAM:2,572924ce57006632826558! 

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Robert Andrews]

We installed fiber at a nuke plant in 79 that is still going strong... 
It was actually the test case for which Union would get to call fiber 
it's own...It would have been done in 78 if the Unions hadn't fought 
over it for a year.   And it has low dose rad exposure...


On 05/03/2016 03:34 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:

I don't disagree with you but I do wonder what the ultimate life of
modern singlemode fiber (G.652.D) is, assuming it's not physically
damaged. Could be more than 100 years?

The oldest outside plant fiber that's still currently in use is, as far
as I know, some of the 9/125 that was installed between Boston and New
York in the early 1980s.  But that stuff is very different from even a
modern singlemode from the dotcom 1.0 boom times around 1998/1999. A
significant amount of the MFN/Abovenet/360/Zayo fiber in Seattle dates
from that time, right around the year 2000, and there's no problem using
it with modern DWDM systems.



On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Bruce Robertson mailto:br...@pooh.com>> wrote:

That's a nice developer!  By them lots of drinks and steak dinners.
If you don't have the $150-$200k handy, beg, borrow or steal it.
Preferably not borrow... that hurts your return for the term of the
loan.  But it's still worth it for an asset that will be performing
100 years from now.

On 5/3/16 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:

As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and
not put in copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be
pretty high because their other option will be our wireless service.

Sean


On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the
service.  No CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
Say $2500/customer.
Say you clear $40/month.
40*12=480
480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
*From:* Eric Kuhnke
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
    *To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman
 wrote:

1630/65 = 25
Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The
next 25 months and the 25 months after that...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke
 wrote:

I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes)
if the cost per unit served is $1630 per house. And
your initial penetration rate will be far, far less
than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after
3-4 years a significant percentage may never sign up.
Where's the ROI?

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown
 wrote:

Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
1.25” between all handholes.
.75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for
drops.
You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going
down the runs.
You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel,
electronics, batteries.
It will need power.
To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs
ports and SFP to each dwelling with a media
converter at the ends.
Or put in Calix. You can go GPON or Active.  With
something this small, I would do Active.
You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
*From:* Sean Heskett
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
*Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
Hello,
We are in talks with a developer who is planning a
subdivision on a ~50 acre lot for 92 homes and he
wants us to deliver FTTH. Is there anyone on this
list who would like to consult with us so that we
can get the plan done right from the get go?  The
developer will be doing all the trenching and
conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics
and customer servic

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Josh Reynolds]

This is easily solved by always running 2 ducts instead of one, or
microducting.
On May 3, 2016 5:45 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:

> Absolutely - I meant on a timescale of 50+ years, we simply can't imagine
> what electronics might be available in 50+ years. From a raw bandwidth
> perspective and basic parameters like dB loss/km and frequencies available
> from 1270 to 1610nm, I can't see any reason why a two strand active-E
> singlemode deployment today couldn't work with new electronics 100 years
> from now.
>
> For example if the standard residential active-E CPE is 200Gbps full
> duplex in a 16QAM modulated coherent signal in 25 years from now.
>
> But I wonder if we will get to a situation where today's state of the art
> fiber is as obsolete as the very earliest singlemode cables laid in the US
> northeast in the early 80s, which now require all sorts of special funky
> electronics, dispersion compensation and additional 3R regen hardware to
> function correctly.
>
> There's a number of older submarine fiber cables that have been taken out
> of service because the subsea repeaters can't be effectively used for
> anything better than, say, 40 wavelengths x OC-12 or OC-48 per wavelength,
> which is a tiny amount of capacity in the modern era.
>
> http://www.jeffhecht.com/chron.html
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Bruce Robertson  wrote:
>
>> You can always change the electronics.  It's only glass - lots of ways to
>> light it up.  Changing the electronics is the cheap part.
>>
>> On 5/3/16 3:34 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
>>
>> I don't disagree with you but I do wonder what the ultimate life of
>> modern singlemode fiber (G.652.D) is, assuming it's not physically damaged.
>> Could be more than 100 years?
>>
>> The oldest outside plant fiber that's still currently in use is, as far
>> as I know, some of the 9/125 that was installed between Boston and New York
>> in the early 1980s.  But that stuff is very different from even a modern
>> singlemode from the dotcom 1.0 boom times around 1998/1999. A significant
>> amount of the MFN/Abovenet/360/Zayo fiber in Seattle dates from that time,
>> right around the year 2000, and there's no problem using it with modern
>> DWDM systems.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Bruce Robertson  wrote:
>>
>>> That's a nice developer!  By them lots of drinks and steak dinners.  If
>>> you don't have the $150-$200k handy, beg, borrow or steal it.  Preferably
>>> not borrow... that hurts your return for the term of the loan.  But it's
>>> still worth it for an asset that will be performing 100 years from now.
>>>
>>> On 5/3/16 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
>>>
>>> As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and not put
>>> in copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be pretty high because
>>> their other option will be our wireless service.
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown < ch...@wbmfg.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
>>>> And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service.  No
>>>> CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
>>>>
>>>> Say $2500/customer.
>>>>
>>>> Say you clear $40/month.
>>>>
>>>> 40*12=480
>>>> 480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
>>>>
>>>> What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>>>
>>>> That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman <
>>>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 1630/65 = 25
>>>>>
>>>>> Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25
>>>>> months and the 25 months after that...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Bruce Robertson]

Oh, sorry, we were agreeing.  I misread.  You have a good point... 
fortunately even 30 years from now I probably won't care, so it'll be my 
heirs' problem.  :-)



On 05/03/2016 03:45 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
Absolutely - I meant on a timescale of 50+ years, we simply can't 
imagine what electronics might be available in 50+ years. From a raw 
bandwidth perspective and basic parameters like dB loss/km and 
frequencies available from 1270 to 1610nm, I can't see any reason why 
a two strand active-E singlemode deployment today couldn't work with 
new electronics 100 years from now.


For example if the standard residential active-E CPE is 200Gbps full 
duplex in a 16QAM modulated coherent signal in 25 years from now.


But I wonder if we will get to a situation where today's state of the 
art fiber is as obsolete as the very earliest singlemode cables laid 
in the US northeast in the early 80s, which now require all sorts of 
special funky electronics, dispersion compensation and additional 3R 
regen hardware to function correctly.


There's a number of older submarine fiber cables that have been taken 
out of service because the subsea repeaters can't be effectively used 
for anything better than, say, 40 wavelengths x OC-12 or OC-48 per 
wavelength, which is a tiny amount of capacity in the modern era.


http://www.jeffhecht.com/chron.html




On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Bruce Robertson <mailto:br...@pooh.com>> wrote:


You can always change the electronics.  It's only glass - lots of
ways to light it up.  Changing the electronics is the cheap part.


On 5/3/16 3:34 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:

I don't disagree with you but I do wonder what the ultimate life
of modern singlemode fiber (G.652.D) is, assuming it's not
physically damaged. Could be more than 100 years?

The oldest outside plant fiber that's still currently in use is,
as far as I know, some of the 9/125 that was installed between
Boston and New York in the early 1980s.  But that stuff is very
different from even a modern singlemode from the dotcom 1.0 boom
times around 1998/1999. A significant amount of the
MFN/Abovenet/360/Zayo fiber in Seattle dates from that time,
right around the year 2000, and there's no problem using it with
modern DWDM systems.



On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Bruce Robertson mailto:br...@pooh.com>> wrote:

That's a nice developer!  By them lots of drinks and steak
dinners.  If you don't have the $150-$200k handy, beg, borrow
or steal it. Preferably not borrow... that hurts your return
for the term of the loan.  But it's still worth it for an
asset that will be performing 100 years from now.

On 5/3/16 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:

As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right
and not put in copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate
should be pretty high because their other option will be our
wireless service.

Sean


On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take
the service.  No CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
Say $2500/customer.
Say you clear $40/month.
40*12=480
480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
*From:* Eric Kuhnke
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
    *To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman
mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:

1630/65 = 25
Internet isn't going away, it's like water and
power.  The next 25 months and the 25 months after
that...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92
homes) if the cost per unit served is $1630 per
house. And your initial penetration rate will be
far, far less than 100% of homes for monthly
services. Even after 3-4 years a significant
percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown
 

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Eric Kuhnke]

Absolutely - I meant on a timescale of 50+ years, we simply can't imagine
what electronics might be available in 50+ years. From a raw bandwidth
perspective and basic parameters like dB loss/km and frequencies available
from 1270 to 1610nm, I can't see any reason why a two strand active-E
singlemode deployment today couldn't work with new electronics 100 years
from now.

For example if the standard residential active-E CPE is 200Gbps full duplex
in a 16QAM modulated coherent signal in 25 years from now.

But I wonder if we will get to a situation where today's state of the art
fiber is as obsolete as the very earliest singlemode cables laid in the US
northeast in the early 80s, which now require all sorts of special funky
electronics, dispersion compensation and additional 3R regen hardware to
function correctly.

There's a number of older submarine fiber cables that have been taken out
of service because the subsea repeaters can't be effectively used for
anything better than, say, 40 wavelengths x OC-12 or OC-48 per wavelength,
which is a tiny amount of capacity in the modern era.

http://www.jeffhecht.com/chron.html




On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Bruce Robertson  wrote:

> You can always change the electronics.  It's only glass - lots of ways to
> light it up.  Changing the electronics is the cheap part.
>
> On 5/3/16 3:34 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
>
> I don't disagree with you but I do wonder what the ultimate life of modern
> singlemode fiber (G.652.D) is, assuming it's not physically damaged. Could
> be more than 100 years?
>
> The oldest outside plant fiber that's still currently in use is, as far as
> I know, some of the 9/125 that was installed between Boston and New York in
> the early 1980s.  But that stuff is very different from even a modern
> singlemode from the dotcom 1.0 boom times around 1998/1999. A significant
> amount of the MFN/Abovenet/360/Zayo fiber in Seattle dates from that time,
> right around the year 2000, and there's no problem using it with modern
> DWDM systems.
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Bruce Robertson  wrote:
>
>> That's a nice developer!  By them lots of drinks and steak dinners.  If
>> you don't have the $150-$200k handy, beg, borrow or steal it.  Preferably
>> not borrow... that hurts your return for the term of the loan.  But it's
>> still worth it for an asset that will be performing 100 years from now.
>>
>> On 5/3/16 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
>>
>> As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and not put
>> in copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be pretty high because
>> their other option will be our wireless service.
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown < ch...@wbmfg.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
>>> And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service.  No
>>> CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
>>>
>>> Say $2500/customer.
>>>
>>> Say you clear $40/month.
>>>
>>> 40*12=480
>>> 480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
>>>
>>> What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
>>>
>>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>>
>>> That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman <
>>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1630/65 = 25
>>>>
>>>> Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25
>>>> months and the 25 months after that...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per
>>>>> unit served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be
>>>>> far, far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 
>>>>> years
>>>>> a significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Figure one h

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Bruce Robertson]

You can always change the electronics.  It's only glass - lots of ways 
to light it up.  Changing the electronics is the cheap part.



On 5/3/16 3:34 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
I don't disagree with you but I do wonder what the ultimate life of 
modern singlemode fiber (G.652.D) is, assuming it's not physically 
damaged. Could be more than 100 years?


The oldest outside plant fiber that's still currently in use is, as 
far as I know, some of the 9/125 that was installed between Boston and 
New York in the early 1980s.  But that stuff is very different from 
even a modern singlemode from the dotcom 1.0 boom times around 
1998/1999. A significant amount of the MFN/Abovenet/360/Zayo fiber in 
Seattle dates from that time, right around the year 2000, and there's 
no problem using it with modern DWDM systems.




On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Bruce Robertson <mailto:br...@pooh.com>> wrote:


That's a nice developer!  By them lots of drinks and steak
dinners.  If you don't have the $150-$200k handy, beg, borrow or
steal it.  Preferably not borrow... that hurts your return for the
term of the loan.  But it's still worth it for an asset that will
be performing 100 years from now.

On 5/3/16 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:

As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and
not put in copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be
pretty high because their other option will be our wireless service.

Sean


On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:

You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the
service.  No CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
Say $2500/customer.
Say you clear $40/month.
40*12=480
480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
*From:* Eric Kuhnke
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
    *To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman
 wrote:

1630/65 = 25
Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power. The
next 25 months and the 25 months after that...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke
 wrote:

I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92
homes) if the cost per unit served is $1630 per
house. And your initial penetration rate will be far,
far less than 100% of homes for monthly services.
Even after 3-4 years a significant percentage may
never sign up. Where's the ROI?

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown
 wrote:

Figure one handhole per 2 homes. So 46 handholes.
1.25” between all handholes.
.75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for
drops.
You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going
down the runs.
You will need a cabinet with a distribution
panel, electronics, batteries.
It will need power.
To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs
ports and SFP to each dwelling with a media
converter at the ends.
Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active. 
With something this small, I would do Active.

You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
*From:* Sean Heskett
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
*Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
Hello,
We are in talks with a developer who is planning
a subdivision on a ~50 acre lot for 92 homes and
he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
this list who would like to consult with us so
that we can get the plan done right from the get
go?  The developer will be doing all the
trenching and conduit etc., we will be doing all
the electronics and customer service etc.
Best regards,
Sean




!DSPAM:2,5729279660848397412542! 

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Eric Kuhnke]

I don't disagree with you but I do wonder what the ultimate life of modern
singlemode fiber (G.652.D) is, assuming it's not physically damaged. Could
be more than 100 years?

The oldest outside plant fiber that's still currently in use is, as far as
I know, some of the 9/125 that was installed between Boston and New York in
the early 1980s.  But that stuff is very different from even a modern
singlemode from the dotcom 1.0 boom times around 1998/1999. A significant
amount of the MFN/Abovenet/360/Zayo fiber in Seattle dates from that time,
right around the year 2000, and there's no problem using it with modern
DWDM systems.



On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:28 PM, Bruce Robertson  wrote:

> That's a nice developer!  By them lots of drinks and steak dinners.  If
> you don't have the $150-$200k handy, beg, borrow or steal it.  Preferably
> not borrow... that hurts your return for the term of the loan.  But it's
> still worth it for an asset that will be performing 100 years from now.
>
> On 5/3/16 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
>
> As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and not put
> in copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be pretty high because
> their other option will be our wireless service.
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
>> And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service.  No
>> CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
>>
>> Say $2500/customer.
>>
>> Say you clear $40/month.
>>
>> 40*12=480
>> 480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
>>
>> What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
>>
>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>
>> That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman > > wrote:
>>
>>> 1630/65 = 25
>>>
>>> Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25
>>> months and the 25 months after that...
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per
>>>> unit served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be
>>>> far, far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years
>>>> a significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.25” between all handholes.
>>>>> .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
>>>>> You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
>>>>> Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.
>>>>>
>>>>> You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics,
>>>>> batteries.
>>>>> It will need power.
>>>>>
>>>>> To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each
>>>>> dwelling with a media converter at the ends.
>>>>> Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this
>>>>> small, I would do Active.
>>>>>
>>>>> You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Sean Heskett
>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
>>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
>>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a
>>>>> ~50 acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there 
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> on this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
>>>>> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
>>>>> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer 
>>>>> service
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sean
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> !DSPAM:2,572924ce57006632826558!
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Josh Luthman]

OPM other people's money

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On May 3, 2016 6:28 PM, "Bruce Robertson"  wrote:

> That's a nice developer!  By them lots of drinks and steak dinners.  If
> you don't have the $150-$200k handy, beg, borrow or steal it.  Preferably
> not borrow... that hurts your return for the term of the loan.  But it's
> still worth it for an asset that will be performing 100 years from now.
>
> On 5/3/16 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
>
> As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and not put
> in copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be pretty high because
> their other option will be our wireless service.
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
>> And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service.  No
>> CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
>>
>> Say $2500/customer.
>>
>> Say you clear $40/month.
>>
>> 40*12=480
>> 480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
>>
>> What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
>>
>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>
>> That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman > > wrote:
>>
>>> 1630/65 = 25
>>>
>>> Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25
>>> months and the 25 months after that...
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per
>>>> unit served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be
>>>> far, far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years
>>>> a significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.25” between all handholes.
>>>>> .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
>>>>> You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
>>>>> Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.
>>>>>
>>>>> You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics,
>>>>> batteries.
>>>>> It will need power.
>>>>>
>>>>> To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each
>>>>> dwelling with a media converter at the ends.
>>>>> Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this
>>>>> small, I would do Active.
>>>>>
>>>>> You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Sean Heskett
>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
>>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
>>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a
>>>>> ~50 acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there 
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> on this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
>>>>> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
>>>>> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer 
>>>>> service
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sean
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> !DSPAM:2,572924ce57006632826558!
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Bruce Robertson]

That's a nice developer!  By them lots of drinks and steak dinners. If 
you don't have the $150-$200k handy, beg, borrow or steal it. Preferably 
not borrow... that hurts your return for the term of the loan.  But it's 
still worth it for an asset that will be performing 100 years from now.


On 5/3/16 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett wrote:
As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and not 
put in copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be pretty high 
because their other option will be our wireless service.


Sean


On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:


You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the
service.  No CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
Say $2500/customer.
Say you clear $40/month.
40*12=480
480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
*From:* Eric Kuhnke

*Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman
> wrote:

1630/65 = 25
Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The
next 25 months and the 25 months after that...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke
> wrote:

I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if
the cost per unit served is $1630 per house. And your
initial penetration rate will be far, far less than 100%
of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years a
significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown
> wrote:

Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
1.25” between all handholes.
.75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down
the runs.
You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel,
electronics, batteries.
It will need power.
To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports
and SFP to each dwelling with a media converter at the
ends.
Or put in Calix. You can go GPON or Active.  With
something this small, I would do Active.
You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
*From:* Sean Heskett

*Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
 ;
memb...@wispa.org

*Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
Hello,
We are in talks with a developer who is planning a
subdivision on a ~50 acre lot for 92 homes and he
wants us to deliver FTTH. Is there anyone on this list
who would like to consult with us so that we can get
the plan done right from the get go?  The developer
will be doing all the trenching and conduit etc., we
will be doing all the electronics and customer service
etc.
Best regards,
Sean

!DSPAM:2,572924ce57006632826558! 

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Chuck McCown]

If the local ILEC or a resident wants to force the issue, I think the developer 
will have to grant them access to all public utility easements etc.  

From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 4:23 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and not put in 
copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be pretty high because their 
other option will be our wireless service. 

Sean


On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
  And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service.  No CPE, 
no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.  

  Say $2500/customer.

  Say you clear $40/month.

  40*12=480
  480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.

  What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?

  From: Eric Kuhnke 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
  To: javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

  That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...


  On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman 
 wrote:

1630/65 = 25 

Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25 months 
and the 25 months after that...



Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
 wrote:

  I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per 
unit served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be far, 
far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years a 
significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?



  On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown 
 wrote:

Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.

1.25” between all handholes.
.75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.  
You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.  

You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics, 
batteries. 
It will need power.  

To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each 
dwelling with a media converter at the ends.  
Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this 
small, I would do Active.  

You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.  

From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
To: javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); ; 
javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','memb...@wispa.org'); 
Subject: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

Hello, 

We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50 
acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on this 
list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done right 
from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching and conduit 
etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.

Best regards,

Sean

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Eric Kuhnke]

That does change things considerably. If I ever make it to an afmug I'll
tell you about the 'take' rates in high rise urban condos with
near-exclusivity. It'll make you guys who do last mile to individual houses
drool.

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

> As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and not put
> in copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be pretty high because
> their other option will be our wireless service.
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
>> And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service.  No
>> CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
>>
>> Say $2500/customer.
>>
>> Say you clear $40/month.
>>
>> 40*12=480
>> 480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
>>
>> What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
>>
>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>
>> That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman > > wrote:
>>
>>> 1630/65 = 25
>>>
>>> Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25
>>> months and the 25 months after that...
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per
>>>> unit served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be
>>>> far, far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years
>>>> a significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.25” between all handholes.
>>>>> .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
>>>>> You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
>>>>> Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.
>>>>>
>>>>> You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics,
>>>>> batteries.
>>>>> It will need power.
>>>>>
>>>>> To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each
>>>>> dwelling with a media converter at the ends.
>>>>> Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this
>>>>> small, I would do Active.
>>>>>
>>>>> You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Sean Heskett
>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
>>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
>>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a
>>>>> ~50 acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there 
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> on this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
>>>>> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
>>>>> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer 
>>>>> service
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sean
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Sean Heskett]

As for ROI the developer wants to give us an exclusive right and not put in
copper for phone or TV ;) The take rate should be pretty high because their
other option will be our wireless service.

Sean


On Tuesday, May 3, 2016, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
> And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service.  No
> CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
>
> Say $2500/customer.
>
> Say you clear $40/month.
>
> 40*12=480
> 480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
>
> What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
>
> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
> 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>
> That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman  > wrote:
>
>> 1630/65 = 25
>>
>> Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25 months
>> and the 25 months after that...
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke > > wrote:
>>
>>> I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per
>>> unit served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be
>>> far, far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years
>>> a significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown >> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
>>>>
>>>> 1.25” between all handholes.
>>>> .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
>>>> You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
>>>> Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.
>>>>
>>>> You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics,
>>>> batteries.
>>>> It will need power.
>>>>
>>>> To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each
>>>> dwelling with a media converter at the ends.
>>>> Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this
>>>> small, I would do Active.
>>>>
>>>> You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Sean Heskett 
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com  ;
>>>> memb...@wispa.org 
>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
>>>> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
>>>> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
>>>> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
>>>> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Carl Peterson]

You have to look at it as building an asset that grows in value and pays a
dividend.  If you could buy a house for 100K that you would make 20% per
year on for 20 years would you?

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
> And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service.  No
> CPE, no enclosure, no drop, no sfp.
>
> Say $2500/customer.
>
> Say you clear $40/month.
>
> 40*12=480
> 480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.
>
> What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?
>
> *From:* Eric Kuhnke 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>
> That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
>> 1630/65 = 25
>>
>> Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25 months
>> and the 25 months after that...
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per
>>> unit served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be
>>> far, far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years
>>> a significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
>>>>
>>>> 1.25” between all handholes.
>>>> .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
>>>> You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
>>>> Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.
>>>>
>>>> You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics,
>>>> batteries.
>>>> It will need power.
>>>>
>>>> To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each
>>>> dwelling with a media converter at the ends.
>>>> Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this
>>>> small, I would do Active.
>>>>
>>>> You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Sean Heskett 
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
>>>> *To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
>>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
>>>> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
>>>> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
>>>> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
>>>> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



-- 

Carl Peterson

*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Chuck McCown]

You will probably get 80% if you are the best value.
And you don’t the full costs for homes that don’t take the service.  No CPE, no 
enclosure, no drop, no sfp.  

Say $2500/customer.

Say you clear $40/month.

40*12=480
480/2500 = 19.2%  return from day one forever.

What kind of mutual fund will give you a return like that?

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 3:10 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...


On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman  
wrote:

  1630/65 = 25 

  Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25 months and 
the 25 months after that...



  Josh Luthman
  Office: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373


  On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per unit 
served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be far, far 
less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years a 
significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?



On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.

  1.25” between all handholes.
  .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.  
  You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
  Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.  

  You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics, 
batteries. 
  It will need power.  

  To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each 
dwelling with a media converter at the ends.  
  Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this small, 
I would do Active.  

  You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.  

  From: Sean Heskett 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
  To: af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org 
  Subject: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

  Hello, 

  We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50 
acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on this 
list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done right 
from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching and conduit 
etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.

  Best regards,

  Sean

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Eric Kuhnke]

That math assumes an immediate 100% takeup rate...

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> 1630/65 = 25
>
> Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25 months
> and the 25 months after that...
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:
>
>> I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per
>> unit served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be
>> far, far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years
>> a significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
>>>
>>> 1.25” between all handholes.
>>> .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
>>> You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
>>> Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.
>>>
>>> You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics,
>>> batteries.
>>> It will need power.
>>>
>>> To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each
>>> dwelling with a media converter at the ends.
>>> Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this small,
>>> I would do Active.
>>>
>>> You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
>>>
>>> *From:* Sean Heskett 
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
>>> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
>>> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
>>> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
>>> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Josh Luthman]

1630/65 = 25

Internet isn't going away, it's like water and power.  The next 25 months
and the 25 months after that...


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per
> unit served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be
> far, far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years
> a significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?
>
>
> On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
>>
>> 1.25” between all handholes.
>> .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
>> You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
>> Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.
>>
>> You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics,
>> batteries.
>> It will need power.
>>
>> To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each
>> dwelling with a media converter at the ends.
>> Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this small,
>> I would do Active.
>>
>> You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
>>
>> *From:* Sean Heskett 
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
>> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
>> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
>> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
>> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service
>> etc.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Eric Kuhnke]

I don't see how the math works (at $150k and 92 homes) if the cost per unit
served is $1630 per house. And your initial penetration rate will be far,
far less than 100% of homes for monthly services. Even after 3-4 years a
significant percentage may never sign up. Where's the ROI?


On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
>
> 1.25” between all handholes.
> .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
> You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
> Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.
>
> You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics, batteries.
> It will need power.
>
> To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each
> dwelling with a media converter at the ends.
> Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this small, I
> would do Active.
>
> You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
>
> *From:* Sean Heskett 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>
> Hello,
>
> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service
> etc.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sean
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Paul McCall]

Man, that sucks!

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 2:45 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build


Hoover is getting out of vacuums?



bp




On 5/3/2016 11:42 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:

If we weren't in the middle of several large projects ourselves, we would 
normally be more than happy to help. Our CEO has been building fiber and power 
networks for over thirty years, and "may have been highly involved in a certain 
fiber project for a large company with two O's in the middle of it's name".

As it stands, Chuck H/Chuck M would be some of your best contacts I would 
imagine.
On May 3, 2016 1:38 PM, "Sean Heskett" 
mailto:af...@zirkel.us>> wrote:
Hello,

We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50 acre 
lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on this list 
who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done right from 
the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching and conduit etc., we 
will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.

Best regards,

Sean

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Chuck McCown]

Splice cases, the number and size, will depend on the design.

You want to minimize the splice cases, but that has to be balanced on how many 
drops are you pulling back through the system to the splice.   You can minimize 
hand holes too if you want to run the drop tubes longer.  We typically have one 
hand hole per two houses and one splice case per 4-8 houses depending on how 
dense the neighborhood is.  

You need to find a good splicer and have him/her look over a potential design.  
They will have lots of advice and pointers.  

From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 1:36 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

Awesome Chuck that's exactly what I was looking for! 

Sterling I might be buying you a vacation to Steamboat Springs, CO soon ;-)

This list is such an amazing resource!!!

Thanks guys,
-Sean


On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.

  1.25” between all handholes.
  .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.  
  You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
  Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.  

  You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics, batteries. 
  It will need power.  

  To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each 
dwelling with a media converter at the ends.  
  Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this small, I 
would do Active.  

  You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.  

  From: Sean Heskett 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
  To: af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org 
  Subject: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

  Hello, 

  We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50 acre 
lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on this list 
who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done right from 
the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching and conduit etc., we 
will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.

  Best regards,

  Sean

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Sean Heskett]

Awesome Chuck that's exactly what I was looking for!

Sterling I might be buying you a vacation to Steamboat Springs, CO soon ;-)

This list is such an amazing resource!!!

Thanks guys,
-Sean


On Tue, May 3, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.
>
> 1.25” between all handholes.
> .75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
> You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
> Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.
>
> You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics, batteries.
> It will need power.
>
> To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each
> dwelling with a media converter at the ends.
> Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this small, I
> would do Active.
>
> You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.
>
> *From:* Sean Heskett 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] potential FTTH build
>
> Hello,
>
> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service
> etc.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sean
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Sterling Jacobson]

Add splice cases.

And NIDs for each home with splice tray.

I don’t mind helping out, give me a call some time Sean.


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2016 12:49 PM
To: af@afmug.com; memb...@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.

1.25” between all handholes.
.75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.
You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.

You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics, batteries.
It will need power.

To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each dwelling 
with a media converter at the ends.
Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this small, I 
would do Active.

You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.

From: Sean Heskett<mailto:af...@zirkel.us>
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com> ; 
memb...@wispa.org<mailto:memb...@wispa.org>
Subject: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

Hello,

We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50 acre 
lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on this list 
who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done right from 
the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching and conduit etc., we 
will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.

Best regards,

Sean

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Chuck McCown]

Figure one handhole per 2 homes.  So 46 handholes.

1.25” between all handholes.
.75” duct from each handhole to each dwelling for drops.  
You can run 144 count fiber for spares.
Drop down to 96 or 48 count as it tapers going down the runs.  

You will need a cabinet with a distribution panel, electronics, batteries. 
It will need power.  

To go cheap, use a large cisco router with SFPs ports and SFP to each dwelling 
with a media converter at the ends.  
Or put in Calix.  You can go GPON or Active.  With something this small, I 
would do Active.  

You will have $150 to $200K in before you are done.  

From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2016 12:38 PM
To: af@afmug.com ; memb...@wispa.org 
Subject: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

Hello, 

We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50 acre 
lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on this list 
who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan done right from 
the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching and conduit etc., we 
will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.

Best regards,

Sean

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Josh Reynolds]

:)
On May 3, 2016 1:44 PM, "Bill Prince"  wrote:

> Hoover is getting out of vacuums?
>
>
> bp
> 
>
>
> On 5/3/2016 11:42 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:
>
> If we weren't in the middle of several large projects ourselves, we would
> normally be more than happy to help. Our CEO has been building fiber and
> power networks for over thirty years, and "may have been highly involved in
> a certain fiber project for a large company with two O's in the middle of
> it's name".
>
> As it stands, Chuck H/Chuck M would be some of your best contacts I would
> imagine.
> On May 3, 2016 1:38 PM, "Sean Heskett"  wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
>> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
>> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
>> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
>> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service
>> etc.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Bill Prince]

Hoover is getting out of vacuums?


bp


On 5/3/2016 11:42 AM, Josh Reynolds wrote:


If we weren't in the middle of several large projects ourselves, we 
would normally be more than happy to help. Our CEO has been building 
fiber and power networks for over thirty years, and "may have been 
highly involved in a certain fiber project for a large company with 
two O's in the middle of it's name".


As it stands, Chuck H/Chuck M would be some of your best contacts I 
would imagine.


On May 3, 2016 1:38 PM, "Sean Heskett" > wrote:


Hello,

We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on
a ~50 acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is
there anyone on this list who would like to consult with us so
that we can get the plan done right from the get go?  The
developer will be doing all the trenching and conduit etc., we
will be doing all the electronics and customer service etc.

Best regards,

Sean

Re: [AFMUG] potential FTTH build

[Josh Reynolds]

If we weren't in the middle of several large projects ourselves, we would
normally be more than happy to help. Our CEO has been building fiber and
power networks for over thirty years, and "may have been highly involved in
a certain fiber project for a large company with two O's in the middle of
it's name".

As it stands, Chuck H/Chuck M would be some of your best contacts I would
imagine.
On May 3, 2016 1:38 PM, "Sean Heskett"  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> We are in talks with a developer who is planning a subdivision on a ~50
> acre lot for 92 homes and he wants us to deliver FTTH.  Is there anyone on
> this list who would like to consult with us so that we can get the plan
> done right from the get go?  The developer will be doing all the trenching
> and conduit etc., we will be doing all the electronics and customer service
> etc.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sean
>
>