Re: DIS: Proto: Lets all use [Insert agreed language here] when we can.

[Nic Evans]

On 06/28/2017 04:12 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:

Official Language:


Against.

Logistics: Litigating the definition of a language. Are Received 
Pronunciation, AAVE, Scots, General American all the same language? How 
many non-english words do I have to use to stop being English? What 
about nonstandard syntax? What about typos?


Inclusivity: Language is part of culture and identity, and I'm not 
comfortable codifying Agora's culture to be so exclusive. We already 
have measures against ambiguity that don't disavow entire tongues.


Use of languages for public messages other than the Official Language 
are acceptable and ENCOURAGED if the person is not capable of 
employing the Official Language to a reasonable extent.


Sufficiently superfluous uses of languages other than the Official 
Language when the language-user is competent in the Official language 
may constitute a Cardable Offense.


Strongly Against. I don't like the baggage that comes along with 
determining people's competency or punishing people for their 
communication styles.

DIS: Re: BUS: huh, I thought I sent this already

[Aris Merchant]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 3:02 PM, omd  wrote:
> CFJ: Shinies are assets.
>
> Arguments: The recently resurrected rule 2166 says:
>
>   An asset is an entity defined as such by a rule (hereafter its
>   backing document), and existing solely because its backing
>   document defines its existence.
>
> The latest version of Rule 2483 (Economics) purports to define shinies
> as assets, but does it satisfy the second condition?  The meaning of
> "because" here is somewhat ambiguous, but I suggest a useful test is
> whether an entity would cease to exist if, hypothetically, its backing
> document (rule) were repealed.  In this case, shinies are primarily
> defined by Rule 2483, but are also explicitly mentioned in Rule 2491
> (Estate Auctions) and Rule 2484 (Payday).  For example:
>
>   At the start of each month, if Agora's Balance is not 0 or less,
>   Agora SHALL pay each player 10 shinies.
>
> (There are also references to “Balance” in Rules 2485 and 2487.)
>
> If Rule 2483 were repealed, it seems likely that the mentions of
> “shinies” (perhaps "Balance" as well) in those rules would still be
> interpreted as referring to game-defined objects, given the lack of
> any obvious alternative referent.  That would probably be sufficient
> to establish shinies as a part of the gamestate, and (given the lack
> of any intermediate period in which they’re not defined) preserve the
> existence of shinies existing prior to the repeal.  Thus shinies fail
> the test: they wouldn’t cease to exist if Rule 2483 were repealed.
> Does that mean they don’t exist “solely because” of Rule 2483, and
> hence are not assets?
>
> See also: CFJs 1922 and 2309, which addressed that clause but wrt
> assets defined by contracts, not rules.

I have looked briefly at each of the 125ish CFJs containing the word
"asset" (as reported by cfj.qoid.us) and can find no actual
precedent, although one case does seem to be vaguely related. I have
gratuitous arguments, but I'll save them until after I find out
whether people are willing to have me judge a case about a rule that I
re-enatcted. I do point out, however, that there is some precedent for
such assignments (cf. CFJ 1910, one of the ones I just looked
through).

-Aris

Re: DIS: Aesthetic Theme?

[Aris Merchant]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:09 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
>>> I personally would prefer to avoid all of the already-done themes and I'm 
>>> interested in
>>> having "fantastical" themes/societies like perhaps something like the 
>>> Fallout videogames,
>>> or perhaps even an emulation of our own version of Hell...
>>
>> I was thinking the other day (when we were accusing each other of not 
>> treating Agora
>> Right Good Forever) about an traitor/accusation inspired theme (for those of 
>> you who
>> know the old RPG Paranoia, like that).
>>
>> Players would accuse each other for being Traitorous Scum for not treating 
>> Agora Right
>> Good Forever with colorful accusations and convoluted reasoning.  This could 
>> either be
>> some kind of reverse karma system, or an officer might choose the best 
>> accusations
>> to "execute" traitors and award good (for "good", read "evil") play.
>>
>> Though the fact is, we've never sustained any RPG-themes for very long, we 
>> cloak things
>> in a theme but then spend more time debating the mechanics than actually 
>> playing in
>> character.
>
> While I like the theme (and painting Cards as the loss of Clones would amuse 
> me no end), I tend to agree with G., here. In fact, that’s why I play: I’m 
> less interested in the games Agora can be bent into emulating and more 
> interested in the process of bending Agora.
>
> -o

I play Agora because it's fun. I'm not really sure why it's fun, and I
think both possibilities have some validity, but either way this would
make it more fun. FOR.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: huh, I thought I sent this already

[Aris Merchant]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:18 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:02 PM, omd  wrote:
>
>> CFJ: Shinies are assets.
>
> I would prefer not to judge this.
>
> -o
>

I would be more than happy to judge this, but I have a feeling people
would think I had a conflict of interest? It's not like I have
anything to gain from it though, so, Agora (and the Arbitor) willing,
I favor this case.

-Aris

DIS: Re: BUS: huh, I thought I sent this already

[Owen Jacobson]

On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:02 PM, omd  wrote:

> CFJ: Shinies are assets.

I would prefer not to judge this.

-o



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Re: DIS: Proto: Lets all use [Insert agreed language here] when we can.

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:12 PM, CuddleBeam  wrote:
> 
> I think this could be a pretty good ribbon opportunity for me lol. Here we go:
> 
> Proto:
> 
> Official Language:

Strong AGAINST.

Agora evidently has an unofficial first language - English, by observation, or 
perhaps SMTP and RFC 2822 if you want to be a technocentric weirdo - but 
refusing to recognize that by rule leaves the possibility open of playing 
Agora, in tandem with current Agorans, without either having to be an obligate 
Anglophone or having an Anglophone switch the language for you.

One of the reasons I volunteered to look at CFJ 3530 is to get a better handle 
on the practical realities of that stance. I don’t speak a lick of Japanese, or 
recognize the language 天火狐 used in eir follow-up on a-d, which means that it 
will be a challenge for me to find a coherent judgement. This is an opportunity 
to explore the ways in which that difficulty manifests and to set some further 
precedent for polylingual play.

-o



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Re: DIS: Aesthetic Theme?

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
>> I personally would prefer to avoid all of the already-done themes and I'm 
>> interested in
>> having "fantastical" themes/societies like perhaps something like the 
>> Fallout videogames,
>> or perhaps even an emulation of our own version of Hell...
> 
> I was thinking the other day (when we were accusing each other of not 
> treating Agora
> Right Good Forever) about an traitor/accusation inspired theme (for those of 
> you who
> know the old RPG Paranoia, like that).
> 
> Players would accuse each other for being Traitorous Scum for not treating 
> Agora Right
> Good Forever with colorful accusations and convoluted reasoning.  This could 
> either be
> some kind of reverse karma system, or an officer might choose the best 
> accusations
> to "execute" traitors and award good (for "good", read "evil") play.
> 
> Though the fact is, we've never sustained any RPG-themes for very long, we 
> cloak things
> in a theme but then spend more time debating the mechanics than actually 
> playing in
> character.

While I like the theme (and painting Cards as the loss of Clones would amuse me 
no end), I tend to agree with G., here. In fact, that’s why I play: I’m less 
interested in the games Agora can be bent into emulating and more interested in 
the process of bending Agora.

-o



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Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[Owen Jacobson]

> Agoran Expedition:
> 
> Agora has sent out an Expedition Party to the New World! The ships have just 
> arrived to the shores and the initial settlers are making camp right now. 
> Here is the map:
> 
> [MAP HERE]
> 
> Something something Estates are actual map pieces something something.
> 
> Something something people can make their own ephemeral patent titles and 
> self-organize and make teams of a sort (Estate-holders are like City 
> Mayors/Governors?). Include Organizations and Agencies. Maybe make them 
> geographically-based too.
> 
> Add some kind of resource perhaps. Clay, Gold and Metal? With there being 
> more of one or the other depending on the location/s you're at/hosted at? Use 
> a certain amount of each resource to make stuff (proposals, Agencies, etc).

I would be thrilled if you built this around Estates. That’s a corner of what I 
had in mind, but I’m not good at designing map games.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Kerim Aydin]

Ah.  CFJs 2086 and 2087.  Though under different rules and purpose and
a total of 4 Appeals between them.

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> Not at all.  My statements use the word "following" which imply
> directionality past the colon.  You could use "following" and "previous"
> perhaps which wouldn't be ambiguous at all, and in fact I think has been
> done before.  That avoids the question, though, of whether you change
> text flow direction with the language shift.
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> 
> > This should work equally well.
> > 
> > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:49 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
> > >  wrote:
> > > 
> > > Well then:
> > > 
> > > I invoke judgement on the other statement : I invoke judgement on the 
> > > other statement
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >> On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:47 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
> > >>  wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> However, given the multi-lingual nature of Agora, it is ambiguous.
> > >> 
> > >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:10 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> Now now, the ordering is perfectly clear in two languages, if not in 
> > >>> both simultaneously.
> > >>> But when does anyone read anything in two languages simultaneously?
> > >>> 
> > >>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> >  I believe none because the message is ambiguous as to which was the 
> >  statement and which was the initiation.
> >  
> >  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >  
> >  
> >  
> > > On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > How many CFJs is it?
> > > 
> > > On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Quazie wrote:
> > >> A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular 
> > >> way.
> > >> 
> > >> I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English - 
> > >> because in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.
> > >> 
> > >> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin  
> > >> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>   I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار 
> > >> حكم بشأن البيان التالي
> > > 
> > > 
> >  
> >  
> > >> 
> > > 
> > 
> >
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: OFF: [Arbitor] CFJ 3530 assigned to o

[Edward Murphy]

Josh T wrote:


The only thing I have to remark about this is the self-demonstrating
statement: "šumma našpartam rāqtam ašpur, mimma epēšū?"


I'm sorry, I don't speak your crazy moon language.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Kerim Aydin]

Not at all.  My statements use the word "following" which imply
directionality past the colon.  You could use "following" and "previous"
perhaps which wouldn't be ambiguous at all, and in fact I think has been
done before.  That avoids the question, though, of whether you change
text flow direction with the language shift.

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:

> This should work equally well.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:49 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Well then:
> > 
> > I invoke judgement on the other statement : I invoke judgement on the other 
> > statement
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> > p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >> On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:47 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >> However, given the multi-lingual nature of Agora, it is ambiguous.
> >> 
> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> >> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:10 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Now now, the ordering is perfectly clear in two languages, if not in both 
> >>> simultaneously.
> >>> But when does anyone read anything in two languages simultaneously?
> >>> 
> >>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>  I believe none because the message is ambiguous as to which was the 
>  statement and which was the initiation.
>  
>  Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>  p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>  
>  
>  
> > On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > How many CFJs is it?
> > 
> > On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Quazie wrote:
> >> A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular way.
> >> 
> >> I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English - 
> >> because in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.
> >> 
> >> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin  
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>   I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار حكم 
> >> بشأن البيان التالي
> > 
> > 
>  
>  
> >> 
> > 
> 
>

DIS: Re: BUS: huh, I thought I sent this already

[Edward Murphy]

On 6/28/2017 3:02 PM, omd wrote:

CFJ: Shinies are assets.

Arguments: The recently resurrected rule 2166 says:

  An asset is an entity defined as such by a rule (hereafter its
  backing document), and existing solely because its backing
  document defines its existence.


Proto: Amend R2166 by replacing the second clause with "existing solely
because the rules define its existence".

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

This should work equally well.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:49 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> 
> Well then:
> 
> I invoke judgement on the other statement : I invoke judgement on the other 
> statement
> 
> 
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:47 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> However, given the multi-lingual nature of Agora, it is ambiguous.
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:10 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Now now, the ordering is perfectly clear in two languages, if not in both 
>>> simultaneously.
>>> But when does anyone read anything in two languages simultaneously?
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
 I believe none because the message is ambiguous as to which was the 
 statement and which was the initiation.
 
 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
 
 
 
> On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> How many CFJs is it?
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Quazie wrote:
>> A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular way.
>> 
>> I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English - 
>> because in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>   I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار حكم 
>> بشأن البيان التالي
> 
> 
 
 
>> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

However, given the multi-lingual nature of Agora, it is ambiguous.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 28, 2017, at 5:10 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Now now, the ordering is perfectly clear in two languages, if not in both 
> simultaneously.
> But when does anyone read anything in two languages simultaneously?
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
>> I believe none because the message is ambiguous as to which was the 
>> statement and which was the initiation.
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> How many CFJs is it?
>>> 
>>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Quazie wrote:
 A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular way.
 
 I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English - 
 because in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.
 
 On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin  wrote:
 
 
 
 I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار حكم 
 بشأن البيان التالي
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Kerim Aydin]

Now now, the ordering is perfectly clear in two languages, if not in both 
simultaneously.
But when does anyone read anything in two languages simultaneously?

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> I believe none because the message is ambiguous as to which was the statement 
> and which was the initiation.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > How many CFJs is it?
> > 
> > On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Quazie wrote:
> >> A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular way.
> >> 
> >> I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English - 
> >> because in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.
> >> 
> >> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار حكم 
> >> بشأن البيان التالي
> > 
> > 
> 
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I believe none because the message is ambiguous as to which was the statement 
and which was the initiation.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:45 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> How many CFJs is it?
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Quazie wrote:
>> A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular way.
>> 
>> I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English - because 
>> in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.
>> 
>> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار حكم 
>> بشأن البيان التالي
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Quazie]

I don't know, but I just filed two to find out.

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 4:46 PM Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> How many CFJs is it?
>
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Quazie wrote:
> > A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular way.
> >
> > I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English -
> because in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >   I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار
> حكم بشأن البيان التالي
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Kerim Aydin]

How many CFJs is it?

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Quazie wrote:
> A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular way.
> 
> I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English - because 
> in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.
> 
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>   I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار حكم 
> بشأن البيان التالي

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Quazie]

I just caught the bidirectionality - wow, very clever.

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:43 Quazie  wrote:

> A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular way.
>
> I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English -
> because in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار حكم بشأن
>> البيان التالي
>>
>>
>>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Kerim Aydin]

Did I say I didn't?

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> Why wouldn’t you have?
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:16 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> > 
> >  أدعو إلى إصدار حكم بشأن البيان التالي
> 
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Quazie]

A variant on the standard CFJ about if you can CFJ in a particular way.

I would've done the whole thing in Arabic vs any of it in English - because
in the current form irrelevant seems reasonable.

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 16:16 Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
>
> I call for judgement on the following statement : أدعو إلى إصدار حكم بشأن
> البيان التالي
>
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Either way you look at it...

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Why wouldn’t you have?

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 28, 2017, at 4:16 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
>  أدعو إلى إصدار حكم بشأن البيان التالي



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Re: DIS: Proto: Lets all use [Insert agreed language here] when we can.

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
> Agora has an Official Language, which is a switch that can take values which 
> are languages, tracked by the Registrar/Herald/someone and defaults to 
> English.

Turning a deep and common understanding of how we interpret the rules into a
(scammable) switch is just asking for trouble, regardless of how I feel about
the principle...  -G.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Birthday Tournament

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

As Herald, I would be happy to run an additional Blitz Nomic game separate from 
this.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 28, 2017, at 3:53 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Aaron Goldfein wrote:
>> Haven't interacted with Agora for a while, but I remembered Agora's birthday 
>> was coming up
>> and wanted to see what was going on with that. Maybe I've just been out of 
>> the loop for too
>> long, but this birthday tournament spawned out of a very successful blitz 
>> nomic we had for
>> the 20th birthday in 2013. Tons of old timers came back and it was a great 
>> time. It was so
>> much fun that we decided to do it every year, and so put it in the rules and 
>> created the
>> birthday holiday to facilitate it.
>> 
>> But now I'm checking and this proposed rule set isn't even a nomic...? Agora 
>> is a nomic.
>> We're all here because we like nomics. I came back to get some expedited 
>> nomic fix.
> 
> Hey Yally!
> 
> I don't think we ever ran another sub-nomic like that.  And I don't think we 
> put it
> in the rules at the time (at least, I can't find one!)
> 
> Unfortunately we kind of crashed and burned into a period of low activity in 
> late 2013
> (lasting by some measures until early 2017).
> 
> We didn't codify the idea of a birthday tournament until last year (after the 
> birthday),
> and just described it as a "sub-game with regulations" but not necessarily a 
> "sub-nomic".
> 
> In terms of a "fix", this tournament is an opportunity for a cut-throat 
> secret negotiation
> game - we haven't had one in a long time so that's another type of activity 
> to get a
> "fix" of, even if it's not strictly nomic.
> 
> -G.
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Birthday Tournament

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Aaron Goldfein wrote:
> Haven't interacted with Agora for a while, but I remembered Agora's birthday 
> was coming up 
> and wanted to see what was going on with that. Maybe I've just been out of 
> the loop for too 
> long, but this birthday tournament spawned out of a very successful blitz 
> nomic we had for 
> the 20th birthday in 2013. Tons of old timers came back and it was a great 
> time. It was so
> much fun that we decided to do it every year, and so put it in the rules and 
> created the
> birthday holiday to facilitate it.
>
> But now I'm checking and this proposed rule set isn't even a nomic...? Agora 
> is a nomic. 
> We're all here because we like nomics. I came back to get some expedited 
> nomic fix.

Hey Yally!

I don't think we ever ran another sub-nomic like that.  And I don't think we 
put it
in the rules at the time (at least, I can't find one!)

Unfortunately we kind of crashed and burned into a period of low activity in 
late 2013 
(lasting by some measures until early 2017).

We didn't codify the idea of a birthday tournament until last year (after the 
birthday),
and just described it as a "sub-game with regulations" but not necessarily a 
"sub-nomic".

In terms of a "fix", this tournament is an opportunity for a cut-throat secret 
negotiation
game - we haven't had one in a long time so that's another type of activity to 
get a
"fix" of, even if it's not strictly nomic.

-G.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Birthday Tournament

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I was not aware that was the intent of this rules, so this is what I came up 
with. I used this because we were discussing the idea and I thought this would 
be a good dry run.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 28, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Aaron Goldfein  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, June 26, 2017, CuddleBeam  wrote:
> >No, it only allows me to limit eir game actions because it only allows
> internal actions, if you look at the rules.
> 
> ...I don't see that. Maybe I'm missing something though - in which case, 
> please point out what I'm missing. What I'm finding is:
> 
> "However, the Herald may remove participants or limit eir actions at eir
> discretion"
> 
> without any explicit limitations to what those actions are.
> 
> Haven't interacted with Agora for a while, but I remembered Agora's birthday 
> was coming up and wanted to see what was going on with that. Maybe I've just 
> been out of the loop for too long, but this birthday tournament spawned out 
> of a very successful blitz nomic we had for the 20th birthday in 2013. Tons 
> of old timers came back and it was a great time. It was so much fun that we 
> decided to do it every year, and so put it in the rules and created the 
> birthday holiday to facilitate it.
> 
> But now I'm checking and this proposed rule set isn't even a nomic...? Agora 
> is a nomic. We're all here because we like nomics. I came back to get some 
> expedited nomic fix.
> 
> Did you guys all get sick of blitz nomics over the last few years so you 
> decided to do this instead. Am I missing something and this tournament 
> actually is a nomic? If not, can we make it a nomic?
> 
> -Yally
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Proto: Lets all use [Insert agreed language here] when we can.

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I strongly oppose this for the same reason I oppose the wiki being in the 
rules. I want the rules to be non-medium-specific.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 28, 2017, at 2:12 PM, CuddleBeam  wrote:
> 
> I think this could be a pretty good ribbon opportunity for me lol. Here we go:
> 
> Proto:
> 
> Official Language:
> 
> Agora has an Official Language, which is a switch that can take values which 
> are languages, tracked by the Registrar/Herald/someone and defaults to 
> English.
> 
> Public messages are ENCOURAGED to be in the Official Language.
> 
> Use of languages for public messages other than the Official Language are 
> acceptable and ENCOURAGED if the person is not capable of employing the 
> Official Language to a reasonable extent.
> 
> Sufficiently superfluous uses of languages other than the Official Language 
> when the language-user is competent in the Official language may constitute a 
> Cardable Offense.
> 
> 



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DIS: Re: BUS: Birthday Tournament

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Monday, June 26, 2017, CuddleBeam > wrote:

> >No, it only allows me to limit eir game actions because it only allows
>
> internal actions, if you look at the rules.
>
>
> ...I don't see that. Maybe I'm missing something though - in which case, 
> please point out what I'm missing. What I'm finding is:
>
>
> "However, the Herald may remove participants or limit eir actions at eir
>
> discretion"
>
>
> without any explicit limitations to what those actions are.
>
>
Haven't interacted with Agora for a while, but I remembered Agora's
birthday was coming up and wanted to see what was going on with that. Maybe
I've just been out of the loop for too long, but this birthday tournament
spawned out of a very successful blitz nomic we had for the 20th birthday
in 2013. Tons of old timers came back and it was a great time. It was so
much fun that we decided to do it every year, and so put it in the rules
and created the birthday holiday to facilitate it.

But now I'm checking and this proposed rule set isn't even a
nomic...? Agora is a nomic. We're all here because we like nomics. I came
back to get some expedited nomic fix.

Did you guys all get sick of blitz nomics over the last few years so you
decided to do this instead. Am I missing something and this tournament
actually is a nomic? If not, can we make it a nomic?

-Yally

DIS: Proto: Lets all use [Insert agreed language here] when we can.

[CuddleBeam]

I think this could be a pretty good ribbon opportunity for me lol. Here we
go:

Proto:

Official Language:

Agora has an Official Language, which is a switch that can take values
which are languages, tracked by the Registrar/Herald/someone and defaults
to English.

Public messages are ENCOURAGED to be in the Official Language.

Use of languages for public messages other than the Official Language are
acceptable and ENCOURAGED if the person is not capable of employing the
Official Language to a reasonable extent.

Sufficiently superfluous uses of languages other than the Official Language
when the language-user is competent in the Official language may constitute
a Cardable Offense.

DIS: Re: BUS: OFF: [Arbitor] CFJ 3530 assigned to o

[Josh T]

The only thing I have to remark about this is the self-demonstrating
statement: "šumma našpartam rāqtam ašpur, mimma epēšū?"

天火狐

On 28 June 2017 at 02:54, Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Tue, 2017-06-27 at 22:05 +0100, V.J Rada wrote:
> > I CFJ on the statement
> > "The Japanese message filed by 天火狐 on 27 June deputized him as the
> > Reportor"
>
> Should be "em" not "him", surely?
>
> Anyway, this is CFJ 3530. I assign it to o.
>
> The CFJ statement is probably intended to refer to this message:
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-business@agoranomic.org/msg28694.html
>
> --
> ais523
> Arbitor
>

Re: DIS: Proto-pendposal

[Quazie]

I am happy for this to go away if there's a better shiny economy - I just
feel stifled by the current costs
On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 13:12 CuddleBeam  wrote:

> People might just opt to making a proposal per week or try to buy
> Highlights and pretty much never actually pend stuff with shinies ever
> again. I think it would hit the economy pretty hard, but it could make the
> game much more interesting too. I wouldn't be against it. Better than
> shiny-hoarding imo.
>

Re: Re: DIS: Aesthetic Theme?

[CuddleBeam]

>to "execute" traitors and award good (for "good", read "evil") play.


Oh, we had that Stocks idea running around, yeah?


What about STOCKS for our Good and Bad behavior? Say you can be an
Angel or a Demon or something. If you're an Angel, you gain $$$ each
time some honor is awarded or something. If you're a Demon, you gain
$$$ each time someone gets a Card or such.

Re: DIS: Proto-pendposal

[CuddleBeam]

People might just opt to making a proposal per week or try to buy
Highlights and pretty much never actually pend stuff with shinies ever
again. I think it would hit the economy pretty hard, but it could make the
game much more interesting too. I wouldn't be against it. Better than
shiny-hoarding imo.

Re: DIS: Aesthetic Theme?

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
> I personally would prefer to avoid all of the already-done themes and I'm 
> interested in 
> having "fantastical" themes/societies like perhaps something like the Fallout 
> videogames, 
> or perhaps even an emulation of our own version of Hell...

I was thinking the other day (when we were accusing each other of not treating 
Agora 
Right Good Forever) about an traitor/accusation inspired theme (for those of 
you who
know the old RPG Paranoia, like that).

Players would accuse each other for being Traitorous Scum for not treating 
Agora Right
Good Forever with colorful accusations and convoluted reasoning.  This could 
either be
some kind of reverse karma system, or an officer might choose the best 
accusations
to "execute" traitors and award good (for "good", read "evil") play.

Though the fact is, we've never sustained any RPG-themes for very long, we 
cloak things
in a theme but then spend more time debating the mechanics than actually 
playing in
character.

DIS: Proto-pendposal

[Quazie]

I have to write the real version of this but:


Once a week a player may Highlight a proposal in the proposal pool that
they did not directly author.  When a player Highlights a proposal, it
becomes pending.  When a player highlights a proposal they SHOULD indicate
why they think the proposal Is good for the game.

Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[Nic Evans]

On 06/28/2017 02:31 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:

> 1) Would you hate the fee less if it was accompanied by payout
>for successful proposals?

I'd still dislike it, because via being able to plan everything with 
Protos anyways:


A- Making successful proposals net a profit, incentivizing to farm 
shinies via it, not actually propose. We reward being a (tasteful) 
clever asshole who finds a way to make a profit via systems in the 
rules. Putting in a gear to churn shinies out of making proposals is a 
can of worms I don't want to open.
B- Making successful proposals give a return of zero, in which case, 
why the hell even have shinies in the first place if they can't do 
anything else. And if we can do other stuff with shinies, why the hell 
have a system that makes you pay them if you're going to get it back 
anyway.
C- Making successful proposals still net you a loss, in which case 
we're back at the same problem (but a smaller version of it).


This is largely based on the Alternate Shiny Economy proto I put out a 
couple weeks ago. Shinies have more uses, and the return varies 
depending on the Floating Value. It's definitely gameable (like you 
suggest in A), but in an indirect way, and in a way that other players 
can interfere with. There's no way you could churn out shinies 
week-to-week with proposals under that system (unless a majority of 
players were complacent, which is true for most scams and bad behavior 
anyway).




>2) If the fee remained, would you accept Without Objection instead
>of timed free pends?

Yeah. Although its easily subverted by someone (just one single person 
would suffice) simply objecting to all proposals.


Well the intent is to only use it when necessary, and generally Agoran 
Good Will has allowed such things to work. But we can always consider 
Agoran Consent instead.

DIS: Aesthetic Theme?

[CuddleBeam]

The "Adding fun and flavor" ball is rolling and it looks to be promising.

For the sake of it (and even if "Adding fun and flavor" eventually doesn't
go anywhere, I'm interested in knowing), what themes/aesthetics are you
interested in exploring and which would you prefer to have avoided?

I personally would prefer to avoid all of the already-done themes and I'm
interested in having "fantastical" themes/societies like perhaps something
like the Fallout videogames, or perhaps even an emulation of our own
version of Hell, were our main activity is to promote Sinning (which can
just be NPCs and mechanics really, but it would be fun to sort of roleplay
scenes of "we need more Lust and Envy! Get those imps and succubi on the
job!" "My pits of eternal torment are pretty empty. Hey, you. Could you
fetch me a couple more souls to damn? I'd appreciate it. Thanks. I'll tip
you a shiny.").

>From what I've read, Agora's aesthetic has tended to be civil or a least
traditionally "good" for the most part. Has it ever been attempted to play
Agora as some kind of "Evil" force? (For aesthetics and "roleplay", mostly)

Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[CuddleBeam]

I support having a weekly/monthly free proposal thing of a sort to still
keep the shinies pending system to see if we can still do something about
it but become able to propose more freely.

Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[V.J Rada]

I would like Without Objection, which is why I voted for Quazie's Trivial
amendment.

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:31 PM, CuddleBeam 
wrote:

> > 1) Would you hate the fee less if it was accompanied by payout
> >for successful proposals?
>
> I'd still dislike it, because via being able to plan everything with
> Protos anyways:
>
> A- Making successful proposals net a profit, incentivizing to farm shinies
> via it, not actually propose. We reward being a (tasteful) clever asshole
> who finds a way to make a profit via systems in the rules. Putting in a
> gear to churn shinies out of making proposals is a can of worms I don't
> want to open.
> B- Making successful proposals give a return of zero, in which case, why
> the hell even have shinies in the first place if they can't do anything
> else. And if we can do other stuff with shinies, why the hell have a system
> that makes you pay them if you're going to get it back anyway.
> C- Making successful proposals still net you a loss, in which case we're
> back at the same problem (but a smaller version of it).
>
> >2) If the fee remained, would you accept Without Objection instead
> >of timed free pends?
>
> Yeah. Although its easily subverted by someone (just one single person
> would suffice) simply objecting to all proposals.
>

Re: Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[CuddleBeam]

> 1) Would you hate the fee less if it was accompanied by payout
>for successful proposals?

I'd still dislike it, because via being able to plan everything with Protos
anyways:

A- Making successful proposals net a profit, incentivizing to farm shinies
via it, not actually propose. We reward being a (tasteful) clever asshole
who finds a way to make a profit via systems in the rules. Putting in a
gear to churn shinies out of making proposals is a can of worms I don't
want to open.
B- Making successful proposals give a return of zero, in which case, why
the hell even have shinies in the first place if they can't do anything
else. And if we can do other stuff with shinies, why the hell have a system
that makes you pay them if you're going to get it back anyway.
C- Making successful proposals still net you a loss, in which case we're
back at the same problem (but a smaller version of it).

>2) If the fee remained, would you accept Without Objection instead
>of timed free pends?

Yeah. Although its easily subverted by someone (just one single person
would suffice) simply objecting to all proposals.

Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[Nic Evans]

On 06/28/2017 01:49 PM, Quazie wrote:


I think i am going to propose a weekly free pend for each Player cuz i 
hate the distribution fees


Two questions (for anybody):

1) Would you hate the fee less if it was accompanied by payout for 
successful proposals?


2) If the fee remained, would you accept Without Objection instead of 
timed free pends?

Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[Quazie]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 11:40 AM Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
>
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > What other things could be re-added?
>
> You could re-add my favorite re-adding mechanism.
>
> IIRC, we used to have an office that was required to, each month, both:
>
> (1) select a past repealed rule, modify it to current definitions, and
>  submit a proposal to re-enact it;
>
> (2) select a current rule at random and submit a proposal to repeal it.
>
> (I was thinking of doing this unofficially via Agency, but the distribution
> fees are an obstacle there).
>
>
I think i am going to propose a weekly free pend for each Player cuz i hate
the distribution fees

Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> What other things could be re-added?

You could re-add my favorite re-adding mechanism.

IIRC, we used to have an office that was required to, each month, both:

(1) select a past repealed rule, modify it to current definitions, and
 submit a proposal to re-enact it;

(2) select a current rule at random and submit a proposal to repeal it.

(I was thinking of doing this unofficially via Agency, but the distribution
fees are an obstacle there).

Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, CuddleBeam wrote:
> Looks good and I'm super enthusiastic about the map. Perhaps somewhere else 
> besides Australia though?

We've done actual Land and maps a few times before (where the maps were a 
dynamic
part of an Officer's report, not a Rule).

Nothing wrong with that, and can be cool, but thought I'd point out the context 
for
this was a defaceable monument without game effect (like the Royal Parade) 
rather
than a game map.  The last monument just also happened to be a map.

Last year I put a proto Dungeon-crawl ephemeral rule in that looked like a 
starting
map for a Nethack kind of thing, but it never went anywhere.  My feeling is that
Rule changes aren't fast enough to keep up with dynamic map games.

["why Australia?" history available on request :) ]

Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I like that idea. I will try to write up a more built up combination, a bit 
later. Also, does anyone have recommendations for usenet servers?

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 28, 2017, at 9:55 AM, CuddleBeam  wrote:
> 
> Looks good and I'm super enthusiastic about the map. Perhaps somewhere else 
> besides Australia though?
> 
> Aside from that I'd like "civilian" asymmetry. The Scribes/Acolytes/etc 
> system with the Blots and all seemed super interesting.
> 
> As for implementing it all, how about something like this so that its 
> gradually built upon and has a bit of roleplay to it?:
> 
> PROTO:
> 
> Agoran Expedition:
> 
> Agora has sent out an Expedition Party to the New World! The ships have just 
> arrived to the shores and the initial settlers are making camp right now. 
> Here is the map:
> 
> [MAP HERE]
> 
> Something something Estates are actual map pieces something something.
> 
> Something something people can make their own ephemeral patent titles and 
> self-organize and make teams of a sort (Estate-holders are like City 
> Mayors/Governors?). Include Organizations and Agencies. Maybe make them 
> geographically-based too.
> 
> Add some kind of resource perhaps. Clay, Gold and Metal? With there being 
> more of one or the other depending on the location/s you're at/hosted at? Use 
> a certain amount of each resource to make stuff (proposals, Agencies, etc).
> 
> ---*---
> 
> If someone is familiar with Civ threads on 4chan (which are SUPER cool to 
> play, them being so political/Age of Empires-like and all), something like 
> that. Here's an example of one of them: 
> http://boards.4chan.org/qst/thread/1616672
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[CuddleBeam]

Looks good and I'm super enthusiastic about the map. Perhaps somewhere else
besides Australia though?

Aside from that I'd like "civilian" asymmetry. The Scribes/Acolytes/etc
system with the Blots and all seemed super interesting.

As for implementing it all, how about something like this so that its
gradually built upon and has a bit of roleplay to it?:

PROTO:

Agoran Expedition:

Agora has sent out an Expedition Party to the New World! The ships have
just arrived to the shores and the initial settlers are making camp right
now. Here is the map:

[MAP HERE]

Something something Estates are actual map pieces something something.

Something something people can make their own ephemeral patent titles and
self-organize and make teams of a sort (Estate-holders are like City
Mayors/Governors?). Include Organizations and Agencies. Maybe make them
geographically-based too.

Add some kind of resource perhaps. Clay, Gold and Metal? With there being
more of one or the other depending on the location/s you're at/hosted at?
Use a certain amount of each resource to make stuff (proposals, Agencies,
etc).

---*---

If someone is familiar with Civ threads on 4chan (which are SUPER cool to
play, them being so political/Age of Empires-like and all), something like
that. Here's an example of one of them:
http://boards.4chan.org/qst/thread/1616672

Re: DIS: re CFJ3509

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> I agree in theory with G. here, but given that a CFJ found it 
> was invalid, I see no problem moving ahead.

Sorry, I missed that the CFJ 3526 specifically opined on the first 
attempt at judgement as well as the second attempt.

DIS: Proto: Adding fun and flavor

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

1. Add the Map of Agora as a thing tracked by the Herald
2. Re-add ephemeral patent titles
3. Create some obtuse traditions

What other things could be re-added?

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com





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Re: DIS: re CFJ3509

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I agree in theory with G. here, but given that a CFJ found it was invalid, I 
see no problem moving ahead.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:31 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
>> On Wed, 2017-06-28 at 09:01 +0100, V.J Rada wrote:
>>> In any event
>>> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business
>>> /2017-June/034982.html
>>> is the Motion to Reconsider with 2 support.
>> 
>> I don't believe the original intent for that Motion was a valid intent.
>> It was an attempted resolution, not an attempted intent. (I guess you
>> could argue that attempting to resolve a dependent action shows that
>> you intended to do it, but that's thin legal ice at this point…)
>> 
>> I agree that the original judgement also seems to have been invalid,
>> though (which would be another reason that the Motion to Reconsider
>> would fail). I guess I'll go reassign it now.
> 
> The original judgement cited 3509 in the message text and then re-interpreted
> the statement before judging, as judges sometimes do.  I see no reason
> it was not valid.



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Re: DIS: Most Welcome

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Maybe we should bring back the map.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 27, 2017, at 11:49 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jun 28, 2017, at 2:47 AM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> 
>>> I’m rather more pleased than you might have expected to see that Perth’s 
>>> location is -correctly- noted in both maps.
>> 
>> The first ASCII map I remember I think was someone's USENET signature. It 
>> was also of Australia, and Perth was the _only_ thing marked on it.
> 
> Well remembered. That’s what I had in mind, too - in fact, I posted that very 
> map to a Slack discussion at work today.
> 
> -o
> 



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Re: DIS: re CFJ3509

[Kerim Aydin]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Alex Smith wrote:
> On Wed, 2017-06-28 at 09:01 +0100, V.J Rada wrote:
> > In any event
> > https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business
> > /2017-June/034982.html
> > is the Motion to Reconsider with 2 support.
> 
> I don't believe the original intent for that Motion was a valid intent.
> It was an attempted resolution, not an attempted intent. (I guess you
> could argue that attempting to resolve a dependent action shows that
> you intended to do it, but that's thin legal ice at this point…)
> 
> I agree that the original judgement also seems to have been invalid,
> though (which would be another reason that the Motion to Reconsider
> would fail). I guess I'll go reassign it now.

The original judgement cited 3509 in the message text and then re-interpreted
the statement before judging, as judges sometimes do.  I see no reason 
it was not valid.

DIS: Re: BUS: Because nobody would give me advice on how to use this

[CuddleBeam]

> "Because nobody would give me advice on how to use this"

If it helps, I'm just not motivated to tell you how to use it because the
subordinate John Sir Hiss role (A totally charitable "greater good" kind of
role can be better done by targeting EVERYONE with a public message, not
just trying to arrange stuff with you, so that just leaves a John Sir Hiss
kind of role left) is one I'm just not motivated to play in a game, even if
its the subordinate of someone with godly power.

And even If I attempted it, it would be too obvious/blatant (because why
else would anyone approach you with intent to "advise" you?) and therefore
humiliating lol.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: 2CFJs

[CuddleBeam]

>Before it's assigned. All your CFJs are assigned.


For functional purposes, yeah, it's kind of only "regular" gameplay
relevant if the barring is done then. But I don't see why I can't bar
after years have passed, because the wording is just "E may optionally
bar one person from the case.", without any time limitations.

Re: DIS: re CFJ3509

[Alex Smith]

On Wed, 2017-06-28 at 09:01 +0100, V.J Rada wrote:
> In any event
> https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business
> /2017-June/034982.html
> is the Motion to Reconsider with 2 support.

I don't believe the original intent for that Motion was a valid intent.
It was an attempted resolution, not an attempted intent. (I guess you
could argue that attempting to resolve a dependent action shows that
you intended to do it, but that's thin legal ice at this point…)

I agree that the original judgement also seems to have been invalid,
though (which would be another reason that the Motion to Reconsider
would fail). I guess I'll go reassign it now.

-- 
ais523

DIS: re CFJ3509

[V.J Rada]

Here is the judgement in CFJ 3526:
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-June/035124.html
"Therefore CFJ 3509 has never been assigned a judgement, and the statement

>* CFJ 3509 has no judgement
*
is TRUE."


It can be reassigned. He ruled that the DISMISS judgement still was
not a judgement because it still misstated the statement as the
statement of 3508. In any event
https://mailman.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/agora-business/2017-June/034982.html
is the Motion to Reconsider with 2 support.

DIS: Re: BUS: Because nobody would give me advice on how to use this

[V.J Rada]

2942, not 2492.

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 8:17 AM, Alex Smith 
wrote:

> I cause Quazie to earn a Black Ribbon, using the mechanism in rule
> 2492. I award Quazie a Black Ribbon.
>
> [nichdel already got a win out of the scam; I'd award a Black Ribbon
> too, but nichdel is not a player, and I accidentally misworded the scam
> reward rule, thus don't have enough power to actually do that; remind
> me to get an actual dictatorship next time rather than this sort of
> intentionally-not-a-dictatorship. Quazie aimed to help but didn't
> actually accomplish anything, so a Black Ribbon but no win seems fair.]
>
> I cause rule 2492 to repeal itself, using the mechanism in rule 2492.
>
> --
> ais523
>

DIS: Re: BUS: 2CFJs

[V.J Rada]

Before it's assigned. All your CFJs are assigned.

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:44 PM, CuddleBeam 
wrote:

> >I bar Cuddlebeam from both CFJs (this may be invalid depending on the
>
> >result of a pending CFJ on a similar bar)
>
>
> I don't mind the barring but this got me thinking: how late after a CFJ has 
> been posted can you post a barring? (Or any sub-action, for that matter)
>
>
> Unlimited?
>
>
> I bar Peter Suber from my earliest CFJ which doesn't have anyone barred yet.
>
>

Re: DIS: Most Welcome

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Jun 28, 2017, at 2:47 AM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> 
>> I’m rather more pleased than you might have expected to see that Perth’s 
>> location is -correctly- noted in both maps.
> 
> The first ASCII map I remember I think was someone's USENET signature. It was 
> also of Australia, and Perth was the _only_ thing marked on it.

Well remembered. That’s what I had in mind, too - in fact, I posted that very 
map to a Slack discussion at work today.

-o



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Re: DIS: Most Welcome

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:

I’m rather more pleased than you might have expected to see that Perth’s 
location is -correctly- noted in both maps.


The first ASCII map I remember I think was someone's USENET signature. It 
was also of Australia, and Perth was the _only_ thing marked on it.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

DIS: Re: BUS: 2CFJs

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Jun 27, 2017, at 5:05 PM, V.J Rada  wrote:
> 
> I CFJ on the statement
> "The Japanese message filed by 天火狐 on 27 June deputized him as the Reportor”

I volunteer to judge this.

> I CFJ on the statement
> "A player other than the ADOP may initiate elections by announcement if an 
> office has been deputies for withim the last 2 weeks or no election has 
> occurred within 90 days. V.J Rada successfully initiated 3 such elections on 
> June 27".


I volunteer to judge this, but I have a personal stake in the outcome which may 
disqualify me - ethically, if not necessarily formally.

-o



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Re: DIS: Most Welcome

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Jun 27, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2017, Quazie wrote:
>> I mean, there's no scam here - The parade merely gives future permission to 
>> add to it -
>> it's a standard convention to not burn down people's scam monuments if they 
>> aren't
>> disruptive - but the parade notes that you may add to it and that's legit.
> 
> A perfectly cromulent interpretation is that the definition of "most welcome" 
> is whether
> a change is welcomed through the proposal process.
> 
> The prototype of this kind of things is the Map of Agora, created by a sort-of
> scam (I think) but later graffitied with our names whenever we felt like 
> proposing it.
> 
> It started out looking like this:
> 
> --
> 
> Rule 2105/0 (Power=1)
> The Map of Agora
> 
>  _/|
> DARWIN ->  \_  |/ |  / \
>   __//  |  |
> <- DSV  /  /|  \
> _   \  \_   |   \
>   MORNINGTON CRESCENT ->/|  <- GREAT BARRIER REEF
>  _ _/   | \_/\_/ \
> / \\ <- SHARK BAY  | |
>/|  |  \ <- TOWNSVILLE
> ___/|  |   \_
>  __/|  | |
> /   |  | \
>/   O <- L. DISAPPOINTMENT|/\
>   | |  |   |_
>   | |  |  EMERALD -> \
>   \ |__=_, \
>/|| | <- BRISBANE
>\  O <- LT. ANNE MOORE|__  _\
> \   ||___/  \/ |
>  |__/\  <- TARCOOLA   /   LORD HOWE ->
>  \ __/\_ /   /
>  PERTH -> |  _  __/ |   /| IVANHOE ->   | <- WOLLONGONG
>   /_/ \/ \ / /   | /
>  |_   / <- ESPERANTO  v /__ |_/ <- CANBERRA
>\_/ \| \__|
>||   \__/
> \___=_  ___|
>  MELBOURNE -> \/
> 
> /\__
> |   |
>  |  /
>  \_/ <- HOBART
> 
> --
> 
> 
> And ended up looking like this, just before repeal:
> 
> --
> 
> Rule 2105/5 (Power=1)
> The Map of Agora
> 
>  _/|
> DARWIN ->  \_  |/ |  / \
>   __//  |  |
> <- DSV  /  /|  \
> _   \  \_   |   \
>   MORNINGTON CRESCENT ->/|  <- GOETHE BARRIER
>  _ _/   | \_/\_/ \ REEF
> / \\ <- SHARK BAY  | |
>/|  |  \ <- TOWNSVILLE
> ___/|  |   \_
>  __/|  |  .___o  )   |
> /   |  | ~~vv ===~~~ <-OSCAR'S MIRE
>/   O <- SHERLOCK NESS  | |/\
>   | |  |   |_
>   | |  |  EMERALD -> \
>   \ |__=_, \ BRISBANE
>/|| | <-'
>\  O <- LT. ANNE MOORE|__  _\
> \   ||___/  \/ |  LORD
>  |__/\  <- TARACOOLA  /   HOWE ->
>  \  PERTH  __/\_ /   /
>   | <-'  _  __/ |   /| IVANHOE ->   | <-.
>   /_/ \/ \ / /   | /  WOLLONGONG
>  |_   / <- ESPERANTO  v /__ |_/ <- CANBERRA
>\_/ \| \__|
>   __   __  ||   \__/   \_
>  __ \ / __  \___=_  ___|\_
> /  \ | /  \ MANUBOURNE -> \/  NEW C.LAND \}
> \|/   \)
>_,.---v---._ /\__   )`-']
>   /\__/\  /\|   |  COOK