[amsat-bb] [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened?

[Alexander Sack]

So I think everyone read the announcement ARRL made before FD.  Now
that FD weekend is at an end, can someone explain to me why NASA
couldn't let the astronauts have 10 minutes on the radio for one pass?
 I mean were they having issues with the radio itself?

I still don't see a 26th timeline as I thought that might give me a
clue on why this weekend was an epic failure (I mean I couldn't even
hear the digipeater at times).

-aps (KC2ZSX)
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[amsat-bb] Re: Field Day Dual-Hop!

[Joe]

I know,
Possibly they do not know what is happening? (Doubt it)  how to fix it? 
I also do not know.  This is one of the main reason I hate the CB fiasco 
of the single channel FM birds. Especially because of the nature of the 
FM capture effect.  The Bully with the biggest signal is the only one heard.

This may make it even more CB'ish, but maybe once a station has worked 
someone,  then everyone else starts CQing again? Yes a massive mess.

I feel the ideal would be the one QSO per station during FD. As it is 
intended to be.  Maybe have an OO monitor passes like when FD is 
happening and send out pink slips to all that do not abide by the one 
QSO policy during FD?

Or what probably would be even faster than the one QSO per station,  
would be to run QSO's like a sprint type
then each station gets 2 QSO's and are gone.

Typical  would be like this.

CQ Field Day this is W9ABC
W9ABC this is K9K9XYZ
K9XYZ we are 1A Wisconsin
QSL we are 5a Illinois
QSL
Qrz this is K9XYZ
K9XYZ this is W9AAA
W9AAA we are 1A Wisconsin


etc.

I don't know.
A simple small linear transponder would be soo much nicer. And not all 
that hard to make either.

But alas we keep putting up these FM birds.  UG>

Joe WB9SBD

The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com

On 6/27/2011 12:01 AM, George Henry wrote:
> I actually made most of our (W9CCU) contacts on FO-29 this year, with AO-7
> and VO-52 close behind.
>
> REALLY disappointed at the number of stations making multiple contacts on
> the FM birds...  what these people don't seem to realize is that every extra
> contact they make deprives another station of the opportunity to make their
> one FD contact.
>
> George, KA3HSW
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Greg D."
> To:;
> Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 2:13 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Field Day Dual-Hop!
>
>
>> Actually, the later (North-heading) pass of AO-51 was remarkably sane.  I
>> made my 100 point contact with AA5PK, and then sat back to listen.
>> Towards the end of the pass it was pretty quiet, so I answered W6YX who
>> was actually having to call CQ for some attention.
>>
>> But AO-7 literally sounds like 20 meters.  I've never heard it so busy.
>> The Old Girl is holding up extremely well, and I had much better luck
>> there than with FO-29, which seemed to be suffering from the onslaught.
>> AO-27 was super busy too, so I decided to wait for the mid-Pacific
>> 3-degree pass.  Almost snagged the NH7 station...  Sorry, just couldn't
>> pull out the call sign as the bird set.  Time to buy a better preamp and
>> get it mounted directly on the antenna boom (instead of 10' and a cable
>> splice away).
>>
>> Greg  KO6TH
>>
>>
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[amsat-bb] FD Mess

[wa4hfn]

It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too many 
ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not have 
happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL world 
above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
WA4HFN em55  Damon
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Tom Schaefer, NY4I]

My game plan was to listen to the zoo on the FM birds just for kicks but use 
the linear birds for real contacts. After missing out last year as I was a 
complete SAT newbie, I snagged a contact with first pass on  FO-29 with W3AO 
(25A MDC). I got a few more contacts on VO-52 before our washout send us 
packing. 

All it took this year was an IC 9100, 2m/440 SAT beam, MacDoppler and a 
rotator. Next year it is back to the Arrow and the tripod but it was fun 
getting that one contact this year versus missing out last year.

One suggestion on the multiple FM contacts…if you know any calls that were 
making multiple contacts, call them out here. Granted, the call may be the 
field day call, but I did hear guys that were 1D (at home) making more than one 
contact. I just don't remember the calls. Peer pressure is a wonderful thing to 
correct bad behavior. We should single operators that don't play by the rules 
just as I would hope someone would let me know if I was doing something stupid 
on a pass.

BTW, I was W4TA 5A West Central Florida this year.

73,


Tom Schaefer, NY4I
n...@arrl.net
EL88pb 
Monitoring EchoLink node KJ4FEC-L 489389
DSTAR Capable  APRS: NY4I-15



On Jun 27, 2011, at 11:13 AM, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:

> It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too 
> many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not 
> have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL 
> world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
> WA4HFN em55  Damon
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Jeff KB2M]

 If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts"
who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one
FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes!  I've
never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much
weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year
after FD. Anyway I got my contact :) 

73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
 

-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of wa4...@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM
To: AMSAT
Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess

It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too
many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not
have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL
world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
WA4HFN em55  Damon

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[wa4hfn]

Field Day to my understanding is to see how ops can get on the with the bare 
minimum of equipment needed to make the contact.NOT to blast the  out of 
the bird and walk all over the little guy trying to play fair.

- Original Message -
From: "Jeff KB2M" 
To: "AMSAT" 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:35:35 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

 If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts"
who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one
FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes!  I've
never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much
weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year
after FD. Anyway I got my contact :) 

73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
 

-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of wa4...@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM
To: AMSAT
Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess

It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too
many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not
have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL
world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
WA4HFN em55  Damon

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[amsat-bb] Satellite Contacts During Field Day

[Carl Rimmer W8KRF]

I have a comment regarding FD satellite contacts.  If I remember 
correctly, it has been established that a station only make one (1) 
satellite contact during the FD period so everyone can have a chance.  
Making a contact or contacts on each of the available satellites during 
each of their passes is improper and not according to my understanding 
of the rules.

-- 
*Carl W8KRF *
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Dominic Hawken]

Is there a good FAQ / advice page online somewhere for relative newbies like 
myself on satellite etiquette (no high power, no continuous long calls, listen 
first etc)? 

Dominic G6NQO



Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

-Original Message-
From: "Tom Schaefer, NY4I" 
Sender: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:36:47 
To: 
Cc: AMSAT
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

My game plan was to listen to the zoo on the FM birds just for kicks but use 
the linear birds for real contacts. After missing out last year as I was a 
complete SAT newbie, I snagged a contact with first pass on  FO-29 with W3AO 
(25A MDC). I got a few more contacts on VO-52 before our washout send us 
packing. 

All it took this year was an IC 9100, 2m/440 SAT beam, MacDoppler and a 
rotator. Next year it is back to the Arrow and the tripod but it was fun 
getting that one contact this year versus missing out last year.

One suggestion on the multiple FM contacts…if you know any calls that were 
making multiple contacts, call them out here. Granted, the call may be the 
field day call, but I did hear guys that were 1D (at home) making more than one 
contact. I just don't remember the calls. Peer pressure is a wonderful thing to 
correct bad behavior. We should single operators that don't play by the rules 
just as I would hope someone would let me know if I was doing something stupid 
on a pass.

BTW, I was W4TA 5A West Central Florida this year.

73,


Tom Schaefer, NY4I
n...@arrl.net
EL88pb 
Monitoring EchoLink node KJ4FEC-L 489389
DSTAR Capable  APRS: NY4I-15



On Jun 27, 2011, at 11:13 AM, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:

> It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too 
> many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not 
> have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL 
> world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
> WA4HFN em55  Damon
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Gregg Wonderly]

In my several years of being a licensed ham, this is the theme of most contacts 
about SAT work.  The OSCAR class stations always just do whatever they want.  
It 
seems that the attitude is, I've spent the time and money to have this kind of 
station, and I'm entitled to use it at my discretion.  I think it is great to 
see this kind of dedication to operating, but as many are saying here and have 
said before, it seems a little bit more than unfair that a single resource on 
the other end, is not shared fairly, especially for equipment which was 
intended 
to be shared.

Satellites are limited resources.  If you put a lot of time and money into your 
station to use that limited resource, you might also consider putting some time 
and money into getting additional resources up in the air so that it's easier 
for you to make good use of your system.

Nothing is free in this world...

Gregg Wonderly
W5GGW

On 6/27/2011 10:54 AM, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:
> Field Day to my understanding is to see how ops can get on the with the bare 
> minimum of equipment needed to make the contact.NOT to blast the  out of 
> the bird and walk all over the little guy trying to play fair.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeff KB2M"
> To: "AMSAT"
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:35:35 AM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>
>   If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts"
> who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one
> FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes!  I've
> never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much
> weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year
> after FD. Anyway I got my contact :)
>
> 73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
> Behalf Of wa4...@comcast.net
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM
> To: AMSAT
> Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess
>
> It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too
> many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not
> have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL
> world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
> WA4HFN em55  Damon
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Clint Bradford]

>> ... There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts 
>> ...

I am quite proud of how stations acted out here on the West Coast. I mean, we 
have the largest potential for problems, since we have the largest number of 
hams compared to anywhere else in the U.S. Yes, the FM birds were busy ... and 
I even could call one particular pass a little chaotic (grin) ... but, overall, 
common sense and reasonable operating techniques prevailed.

Clint Bradford, K6LCS

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[amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Contacts During Field Day

[Bruce]

you can make only one contact per fm satellite per mode (this depends on the 
satellite). if a satellite has a voice fm repeater operation on 2m/70cm as well 
as one on 70cm/2.4g then you could make one contact on each. otherwise, just 
one 
if only one repeater. if an ssb/cw bird, you can make as many as your little 
heart is content with. 


the problem is that on field day, everyone out there is trying to make their 
ONE 
ARRL bonus point contact. this clogs up the birds. the high power stations 
operating from home try to give everyone a contact. is this acceptable, is it 
not? it is your decision as to the proper way a satellite is to be used on 
field 
day. 


AMSAT and adopted by the ARRL will allow only one satellite contact per FM 
satellite per mode to try and give everyone a chance to get their bonus points. 
but in real life, the FM satellites are very difficult to get that one contact 
unless you do it right at the beginning or end of your pass when there is less 
confusion on the bird. this has been a continuous problem since i started 
participating in field days in 1993. 


don't forget, the discussions that happen here on the bb are only read by such 
a 
small group of operators that the ones you are addressing are not even hearing 
your comments and suggestions. even an article in the arrl magazine will not 
reach all the operators on the satellites as many are not even members of the 
league. 


i am not trying to be critical of anyone that has commented in on the problem, 
just stating the facts and we have the same discussion every year. 


73...bruce





From: Carl Rimmer W8KRF 
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 10:51:43 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb]  Satellite Contacts During Field Day

I have a comment regarding FD satellite contacts.  If I remember 
correctly, it has been established that a station only make one (1) 
satellite contact during the FD period so everyone can have a chance.  
Making a contact or contacts on each of the available satellites during 
each of their passes is improper and not according to my understanding 
of the rules.

-- 
*Carl W8KRF *
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[amsat-bb] Re: Field Day Dual-Hop!

[Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)]

Joe,

> I feel the ideal would be the one QSO per station during FD. As it is
> intended to be.  Maybe have an OO monitor passes like when FD is
> happening and send out pink slips to all that do not abide by the one
> QSO policy during FD?

Other than possibly having the OO's cite the operator for not following
"good amateur practice" in FCC part 97.101a of the FCC rules, what
could an OO do?  There is no FCC rule that says operators make one
and only one QSO on an FM satellite, and OO's are not in the business
of upholding contest rules.  If stations are identifying and not causing
willful or malicious interference that could be cited under FCC part
97.101d, and aren't violating any other part of the FCC rules, then the
OO has nothing to send out a pink slip for.  Even if an OO were to
send out a pink slip, the station would receive it a few days after the
Field Day weekend - which doesn't help matters during the weekend.

> I don't know.
> A simple small linear transponder would be soo much nicer. And not all
> that hard to make either.

We have 3 that were used a lot over the weekend, much more than normal.
When it isn't Field Day, there are many times where stations can call CQ
for an entire pass on those satellites yet work nobody.  I even saw this a
couple of times on Saturday afternoon, where I moved higher in the
passband so I could hear my downlink easier, yet nobody responded to
my CQ calls.  Or everyone crowds the center of the passband and ignores
the remainder of the 50- to 100-kHz transponder, making it almost seem
like you're on an FM satellite.

73!





Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
http://www.wd9ewk.net/

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[amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Contacts During Field Day

[Carl Rimmer W8KRF]

BUT...you can still only take credit for one 100 point contact.

*Carl W8KRF *

On 6/27/2011 12:10 PM, kq...@verizon.net wrote:
> Only on the FM satellites.
> The linear transponder satellites can be used to make as many contacts 
> as you can.
>
> Jim  KQ6EA
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[amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Contacts During Field Day

[Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)]

Carl,

> I have a comment regarding FD satellite contacts.  If I remember
> correctly, it has been established that a station only make one (1)
> satellite contact during the FD period so everyone can have a chance.
> Making a contact or contacts on each of the available satellites during
> each of their passes is improper and not according to my understanding
> of the rules.

The ARRL and AMSAT rules state that only one contact is allowed per
single-channel FM satellite.  You could have made a QSO on AO-51, one
on AO-27, and one on SO-50 and stay within both sets of rules.  There
are no restrictions on the number of QSOs made using other (non-FM)
satellites.  You only need to make one satellite contact, on any satellite, to
claim the 100-point bonus if you submit your log to ARRL.

73!






Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
http://www.wd9ewk.net/

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[amsat-bb] Re: Field Day Dual-Hop!

[Luc Leblanc]

On 27 Jun 2011 at 0:01, George Henry wrote:

Date sent:  Mon, 27 Jun 2011 00:01:28 -0500
From:   George Henry 
Subject:[amsat-bb] Re: Field Day Dual-Hop!
To: amsat bb 

> I actually made most of our (W9CCU) contacts on FO-29 this year, with AO-7 
> and VO-52 close behind.
> 
> REALLY disappointed at the number of stations making multiple contacts on 
> the FM birds...  what these people don't seem to realize is that every extra 
> contact they make deprives another station of the opportunity to make their 
> one FD contact.
> 
> George, KA3HSW
> 
>

If someone called CW FD 3 or 4 times without any answer it is a plus if this 
station give him his first one but if FD stations are only 
adding contact to their log i agree it is useless on Field Day

"-"


Luc Leblanc VE2DWE
Skype VE2DWE
www.qsl.net/ve2dwe
DSTAR urcall VE2DWE
WAC BASIC CW PHONE SATELLITE

 
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[amsat-bb] FD- 2011

[Peter Portanova]

Hello All,

I too was disappointed by the pileups on all the satellites, our FD 
location, W2GSB,is part of our Town Hall facility, it is a great location 
for the public to experience what we do as amateur radio operators.  However 
it is a very poor location for satellite activity, too much RF leakage from 
the cell towers buildings and large trees.  I was using a hand-held antenna 
and low power and didn't have a chance.  It was the type of chaos we see for 
a rare DX station or in one of the popular contests, having a mix of CW and 
SSB in the same space on the linear satellites was an additional challenge.

I had visitors during all my passes, we had groups from the Scouts, the 
Explorers etc., unfortunately they heard what I heard and it was not a good 
demonstration of what Field Day should be.  I really don't know what the 
solutions if any, to fix it for us.  What we do is a challenge during the 
best of times when you add the FD fuel, with less structure that terrestrial 
radio has, chaos ensues.  I wonder if it's feasible to have a few satellite 
stations, around the country, that have a good FD location, act as "the DX 
stations" and set up a call in by numbers for a few designated passes, to 
demonstrate to the public why we love what we do and maybe interest them 
enough  to join AMSAT and become a satellite operator.

73's Pete
WB2OQQ
www.massapequanyweather.com 

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Joe]

True and isn't that actually breaking a FCC rule law also,  ya know we 
must only run the minimum power needed to maintain the contact?  being 
50 DB stronger than any other signal on the bird is clearly breaking a 
federal law. rule.

Joe WB9SBD

The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com

On 6/27/2011 10:54 AM, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:
> Field Day to my understanding is to see how ops can get on the with the bare 
> minimum of equipment needed to make the contact.NOT to blast the  out of 
> the bird and walk all over the little guy trying to play fair.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeff KB2M"
> To: "AMSAT"
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:35:35 AM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>
>   If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts"
> who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one
> FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes!  I've
> never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much
> weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year
> after FD. Anyway I got my contact :)
>
> 73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
> Behalf Of wa4...@comcast.net
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM
> To: AMSAT
> Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess
>
> It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too
> many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not
> have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL
> world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
> WA4HFN em55  Damon
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[jmfranke]

So if there are three stations operating, only two can make a contact 
because the once two make contact with each other neither can contact the 
third.

John  WA4WDL
--
From: "Tom Schaefer, NY4I" 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:36 AM
To: 
Cc: "AMSAT" 
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

> My game plan was to listen to the zoo on the FM birds just for kicks but 
> use the linear birds for real contacts. After missing out last year as I 
> was a complete SAT newbie, I snagged a contact with first pass on  FO-29 
> with W3AO (25A MDC). I got a few more contacts on VO-52 before our washout 
> send us packing.
>
> All it took this year was an IC 9100, 2m/440 SAT beam, MacDoppler and a 
> rotator. Next year it is back to the Arrow and the tripod but it was fun 
> getting that one contact this year versus missing out last year.
>
> One suggestion on the multiple FM contacts…if you know any calls that were 
> making multiple contacts, call them out here. Granted, the call may be the 
> field day call, but I did hear guys that were 1D (at home) making more 
> than one contact. I just don't remember the calls. Peer pressure is a 
> wonderful thing to correct bad behavior. We should single operators that 
> don't play by the rules just as I would hope someone would let me know if 
> I was doing something stupid on a pass.
>
> BTW, I was W4TA 5A West Central Florida this year.
>
> 73,
>
>
> Tom Schaefer, NY4I
> n...@arrl.net
> EL88pb
> Monitoring EchoLink node KJ4FEC-L 489389
> DSTAR Capable  APRS: NY4I-15
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2011, at 11:13 AM, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>> It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were 
>> too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This 
>> should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could 
>> send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during 
>> FD
>> WA4HFN em55  Damon
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>
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[amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Contacts During Field Day

[Joe]

Agree,  The rules state,

7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single 
channel FM satellite.

So  maybe the ARRL dhould DQ these people when they submit their logs?

I hope so.

Granted this doesn't stop someone operating just to make contacts and 
don't send in their logs for FD.

But wow it would sure make my 5A group remember that rule if after doing 
all this work (Fun) to have it listed as a DQ because of breaking that 
rule that is soo clearly stated.

Joe WB9SBD

The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com

On 6/27/2011 10:51 AM, Carl Rimmer W8KRF wrote:
> I have a comment regarding FD satellite contacts.  If I remember
> correctly, it has been established that a station only make one (1)
> satellite contact during the FD period so everyone can have a chance.
> Making a contact or contacts on each of the available satellites during
> each of their passes is improper and not according to my understanding
> of the rules.
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Floyd Rodgers]

Guys, this seems simple to fix. The arrl gets the logs of everyone. How 
hard is it to build a table of the sat contacts and check who gets more 
than the allowed one contact?
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Jim Wright]

About 50 years ago during the SSB wars, Dubya TOO  Ole Yankee, W2OY,   
was notorious for calling, *"CQ  CQ, don't want any KIDS, LIDS or BUS 
PATROLS,  just good clean A M signals!" *
This describes at least three groups in ham radio today, not just on HF.

Kids *having fun*
LIDS *being LIDS*
Bus Patrols*commenting on the first two and jealous that they can't 
participate "their way"*.

Only thing changed is 50 years have passed and the topic is satellites,  
not AM.

Jim




On 6/27/2011 12:12 PM, Gregg Wonderly wrote:
> In my several years of being a licensed ham, this is the theme of most 
> contacts
> about SAT work.  The OSCAR class stations always just do whatever they want.  
> It
> seems that the attitude is, I've spent the time and money to have this kind of
> station, and I'm entitled to use it at my discretion.  I think it is great to
> see this kind of dedication to operating, but as many are saying here and have
> said before, it seems a little bit more than unfair that a single resource on
> the other end, is not shared fairly, especially for equipment which was 
> intended
> to be shared.
>
> Satellites are limited resources.  If you put a lot of time and money into 
> your
> station to use that limited resource, you might also consider putting some 
> time
> and money into getting additional resources up in the air so that it's easier
> for you to make good use of your system.
>
> Nothing is free in this world...
>
> Gregg Wonderly
> W5GGW
>
> On 6/27/2011 10:54 AM, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:
>> Field Day to my understanding is to see how ops can get on the with the bare 
>> minimum of equipment needed to make the contact.NOT to blast the  out of 
>> the bird and walk all over the little guy trying to play fair.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Jeff KB2M"
>> To: "AMSAT"
>> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:35:35 AM
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>>
>>If it wasn't for the Oscar class stations making "HI POWER multi contacts"
>> who would help the vast majority of weak portable FD stations make their one
>> FD contact? Certainly not a weak station calling CQ for 5 passes!  I've
>> never heard two OCS making contact with each other, it's always with a much
>> weaker station. This is the other side of the same argument heard every year
>> after FD. Anyway I got my contact :)
>>
>> 73 Jeff kb2m 2A SNJ
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
>> Behalf Of wa4...@comcast.net
>> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:14 AM
>> To: AMSAT
>> Subject: [amsat-bb] FD Mess
>>
>> It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too
>> many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not
>> have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL
>> world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
>> WA4HFN em55  Damon
>>
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>

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[amsat-bb] Multiple FM satellite QSOs in Field Day (was Re: Re: Field Day Dual-Hop!)

[Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)]

Hi!

I've seen comments like this from several on the list regarding Field Day:

> REALLY disappointed at the number of stations making multiple contacts on
> the FM birds...  what these people don't seem to realize is that every extra
> contact they make deprives another station of the opportunity to make their
> one FD contact.

This is not necessarily true.

Yes, there are some stations that treat FM satellites just like a station on
20m SSB - work as many as possible.  I did not attempt to work any of the
FM passes east of me, figuring my 5W station would not be able to get
through.  Based on the comments I've read from those in that part of the
country, I did better by working HF or 6m during those eastern passes.
The "minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired
communications" (from FCC part 97.313a) would have been many times
more than the 5W I used.  I confined my FM satellite activity to west-coast
passes, and - as K6LCS and KO6TH previously mentioned - the AO-51
pass late Saturday afternoon was a pleasant surprise in how easy it was
to get through.  Much easier for me than the SSB birds!

On the west-coast AO-27 and AO-51 passes Saturday afternoon, I logged
more than one QSO on each pass.  I was not a "big gun" station, working in
the forest 20 miles/32km west of Flagstaff AZ as a 1B/1-op/battery station at
5W as I typically do for Field Day.  I will post a short video clip showing my
station, along with some photos, in the next day or so.  Unfortunately, my
one SO-50 QSO didn't help for Field Day, as that QSO was with a station
that only gave his grid locator instead of a Field Day exchange.  As for the
extra AO-27 and AO-51 QSOs I logged, they fell into one of two categories -
either helping another station get their satellite QSO (and 100-point bonus),
or responding to calls from other stations.

After making my point-scoring AO-27 QSO, I heard John W9EN on as N6SD.
We had chatted on VO-52 Saturday morning before the start of Field Day,
and I knew he would be on as N6SD instead of his own call.  After some time
passed, I never heard anyone call or work N6SD.  I called N6SD, and we
made a very quick QSO.  It was N6SD's first satellite QSO, giving them the
100-point bonus under ARRL Field Day rules.  For me, I logged the QSO,
but will not score it when I file my log with both ARRL and AMSAT.  I was
not operating in violation of *FCC* rules in making this contact, and -
based on how I have filed my logs in previous Field Days where I had more
than one QSO on an FM satellite - not scoring the additional QSO is
acceptable with both groups.  I'm sure it also helped that both John and I
are experienced satellite operators, able to adapt to the conditions and
make a very quick QSO despite the crowd.

After the QSO with N6SD on that AO-27 pass, and also on the later AO-51
pass, other stations called me.  I recognized some of the voices as
experienced satellite operators working under other call signs.  I responded,
made the Field Day exchanges, and logged a few more non-scoring QSOs.
I don't try to remember if I heard the other stations make QSOs earlier in
the pass.  I work them, and log the QSOs accordingly.  Things were so good
on the Saturday afternoon AO-51 pass that one station was making normal
non-Field Day QSOs among the others who were making Field Day QSOs.
I worked that station, giving him my grid locator instead of my Field Day
exchange.

To paint everyone who logged additional FM satellite QSOs during Field Day
as denying others from making a Field Day satellite QSO is not accurate.  It
may be the only way some stations were able to log a Field Day satellite QSO,
and - in some cases - get the 100-point ARRL bonus.  Since the crowded
conditions continue on the FM birds despite the one-QSO limit in both ARRL
and AMSAT rules, things probably won't change unless something else is
done.  For example, take away the 100-point bonus in the ARRL Field Day
rules for completing a satellite QSO.  I'm not advocating that ARRL do that,
but that bonus is why many groups will take the time and effort to get on the
satellites for Field Day.  Otherwise, satellite operating would be
like trying to
make terrestrial 2m, 222 MHz, 70cm, etc. Field Day QSOs in much of North
America - a lot of work for a few QSOs.

73!





Patrick WD9EWK/VA7EWK
http://www.wd9ewk.net/

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[amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Contacts During Field Day

[Bruce]

unless you are submitting for amsat field day which many of the amsat members 
do. then you want as many contacts on non-fm satellites as you can get 
including 
cw and digital.

73...bruce





From: Carl Rimmer W8KRF 
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:30:29 AM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Contacts During Field Day

BUT...you can still only take credit for one 100 point contact.

*Carl W8KRF *

On 6/27/2011 12:10 PM, kq...@verizon.net wrote:
> Only on the FM satellites.
> The linear transponder satellites can be used to make as many contacts 
> as you can.
>
> Jim  KQ6EA
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[amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Contacts During Field Day

[Bob- W7LRD]

I made my one contact on a ssb satellite with a 910/arrow.  There was as 
"AMSAT" parallel fd "contest".  I cho se to let the gathering throng just 
listen to several ssb passes and they took turns turning the arrow.  They 
seemed amazed at listening to the process as opposed to being part of it.  I 
was tempted to say hi to many of my satellite buddies, however I already had my 
point.   Maybe a "official" AMSAT contest could be considered in the future 
where you pass your "current" AMSAT number or whatever.  Contests always seem 
to bring many out of the corner.  Yep I heard you Glenn & Kerry. 

my 2 cents 

73 Bob W7LRD/aka K7FDF-2a-WWA 



- Original Message -


From: "Bruce"  
To: "Carl Rimmer W8KRF"  
Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 9:24:15 AM 
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: Satellite Contacts During Field Day 

you can make only one contact per fm satellite per mode (this depends on the 
satellite). if a satellite has a voice fm repeater operation on 2m/70cm as well 
as one on 70cm/2.4g then you could make one contact on each. otherwise, just 
one 
if only one repeater. if an ssb/cw bird, you can make as many as your little 
heart is content with. 


the problem is that on field day, everyone out there is trying to make their 
ONE 
ARRL bonus point contact. this clogs up the birds. the high power stations 
operating from home try to give everyone a contact. is this acceptable, is it 
not? it is your decision as to the proper way a satellite is to be used on 
field 
day. 


AMSAT and adopted by the ARRL will allow only one satellite contact per FM 
satellite per mode to try and give everyone a chance to get their bonus points. 
but in real life, the FM satellites are very difficult to get that one contact 
unless you do it right at the beginning or end of your pass when there is less 
confusion on the bird. this has been a continuous problem since i started 
participating in field days in 1993. 


don't forget, the discussions that happen here on the bb are only read by such 
a 
small group of operators that the ones you are addressing are not even hearing 
your comments and suggestions. even an article in the arrl magazine will not 
reach all the operators on the satellites as many are not even members of the 
league. 


i am not trying to be critical of anyone that has commented in on the problem, 
just stating the facts and we have the same discussion every year. 


73...bruce 




 
From: Carl Rimmer W8KRF  
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org 
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 10:51:43 AM 
Subject: [amsat-bb]  Satellite Contacts During Field Day 

I have a comment regarding FD satellite contacts.  If I remember 
correctly, it has been established that a station only make one (1) 
satellite contact during the FD period so everyone can have a chance.   
Making a contact or contacts on each of the available satellites during 
each of their passes is improper and not according to my understanding 
of the rules. 

-- 
*Carl W8KRF * 
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[amsat-bb] Re: [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened?

[Bob- W7LRD]

This may open a can of worms-However,  I'd like to see a "real" ham on the 
ISS.  We all know what that means.  Granted they all take the tech license to 
be "official" amateur radio operators.  However we don't see the "passion" in 
the belly to get on the air.  There have been a few up there that had that and 
it was noticable.  

73 Bob W7LRD 

Seattle 



- Original Message -


From: "Alexander Sack"  
To: "amsat-bb"  
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:08:17 AM 
Subject: [amsat-bb]  [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened? 

So I think everyone read the announcement ARRL made before FD.  Now 
that FD weekend is at an end, can someone explain to me why NASA 
couldn't let the astronauts have 10 minutes on the radio for one pass? 
 I mean were they having issues with the radio itself? 

I still don't see a 26th timeline as I thought that might give me a 
clue on why this weekend was an epic failure (I mean I couldn't even 
hear the digipeater at times). 

-aps (KC2ZSX) 
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD- 2011

[George Henry]

Which is precisely why the only time I unplugged the headphones and let 
visitors 
hear what was going on was during linear satellite passes, where things were 
much more civilized.


George, KA3HSW



- Original Message 
> From: Peter Portanova 
> To: AMSAT-BB@amsat.org
> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:31:24 AM
> Subject: [amsat-bb]  FD- 2011
[snip]
> I had visitors during all my  passes, we had groups from the Scouts, the 
> Explorers etc., unfortunately  they heard what I heard and it was not a good 
> demonstration of what Field  Day should be.  I really don't know what the 
> solutions if any, to fix  it for us.  What we do is a challenge during the 
[snip]

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Bill Acito W1PA]

I did not participate in FD this year, but I have certainly heard my share of 
them in recent years.

I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth is good 
use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t that the 
original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage specific 
activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.

The FM birds have fixed bandwidth --  nothing we can do. There is no mechanism 
to restrict FD stations to only one QSO on any FM bird. If you read the FD 
rules, you can make multiple contacts on the SSB birds, and they do count for 
QSO credit beyond the 100 point bonus – you can only make one QSO on any FM 
bird:

7.3.7. Satellite QSO: 100 bonus points for successfully completing at least one 
QSO via an
amateur radio satellite during the Field Day period. "General Rules for All 
ARRL Contests" (Rule
3.7.2.), (the no-repeater QSO stipulation) is waived for satellite QSOs. Groups 
are allowed one
dedicated satellite transmitter station without increasing their entry 
category. Satellite QSOs also
count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary sheet 
as a separate
"band." You do not receive an additional bonus for contacting different 
satellites, though the
additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 
7.3.7.1. The QSO
must be between two Earth stations through a satellite. Available to Classes A, 
B, and F.
7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel FM 
satellite.


And there is certainly no mechanism to restrict the ERP that gets used. Is 
anyone really surprised it sounds like it does?

IMHO, I think it does more harm than good in promoting this aspect of the 
hobby, for a potential newbie to hear the FM birds on FD...  restrict activity 
to the transponder (SSB/CW) birds and be done with it – no FM satellite QSO’s 
at all during FD.   Or have it like the ARRL Bulletin --- RX only; copy some 
valid telemetry to get points.

Bill
W1PA
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[John Becker]

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But is seems that this is "only" a problem on the FM birds.

Maybe it's past time to not build any more FM satellites
and only the likes of AO-40.

I have given  up on the FM birds because it seems that 
(using the words of the late W2OY) every kid lid and space
cadet it there. (remind anyone of the 27 meter band?)

John, W0JAB
heat shield up

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Nigel Gunn]

A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate 
your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?

On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth is 
> good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t that 
> the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage specific 
> activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
>

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[amsat-bb] Re: Field Day Dual-Hop!

[Andreas Junge]

I have to agree with Patrick on this one. We also checked the frequencies up 
and down from the center of the passbands and there was little activity. Just 
spread out. It was wonderful to see that there was so much activity. As for the 
FM birds - it is what it is. One frequency with capture effect where two people 
are happy and the rest does not make it.  We, deliberately stayed clear of the 
FM birds and focused on the ones with linear transponders. We were better 
prepared to work the Satellites than ever before. SatPC32, LVB Tracker, G5500, 
IC910 with Rig Control. Nature favors the prepared :-)

73,

Andreas, N6NU, CM87VK

On Jun 27, 2011, at 9:26 AM, Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK) wrote:

>  Or everyone crowds the center of the passband and ignores
> the remainder of the 50- to 100-kHz transponder, making it almost seem
> like you're on an FM satellite.

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Andreas Junge]

There is no such rule in the FD that limits you to one Satellite contact. You 
need AT LEAST one for the 100 bonus points: 

>From the FD rules (2011):
7.3.7. Satellite QSO: 100 bonus points for successfully completing at least one 
QSO via an amateur radio satellite during the Field Day period. "General Rules 
for All ARRL Contests" (Rule 3.7.2.), (the no-repeater QSO stipulation) is 
waived for satellite QSOs. Groups are allowed one dedicated satellite 
transmitter station without increasing their entry category. Satellite QSOs 
also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary 
sheet as a separate "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for 
contacting different satellites, though the additional QSOs may be counted for 
QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1. The QSO must be between two 
Earth stations through a satellite. Available to Classes A, B, and F. 


73,

Andreas, N6NU, CM87VK

On Jun 27, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Floyd Rodgers wrote:

> Guys, this seems simple to fix. The arrl gets the logs of everyone. How 
> hard is it to build a table of the sat contacts and check who gets more 
> than the allowed one contact?
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[George Henry]

Note that it says "additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit ***unless 
prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1*** " (emphasis mine), which you conveniently 
omitted. 


Rule 7.3.7.1 says "Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single 
channel FM satellite."

So yes, there IS such a rule.



George, KA3HSW





- Original Message 
> From: Andreas Junge 
> To: AMSAT -BB 
> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 1:29:29 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
> 
> There is no such rule in the FD that limits you to one Satellite contact. You 
>  
>need AT LEAST one for the 100 bonus points: 
>
> 
> >From the FD rules  (2011):
> 7.3.7. Satellite QSO: 100 bonus points for successfully completing at  least 
>one QSO via an amateur radio satellite during the Field Day period.  "General 
>Rules for All ARRL Contests" (Rule 3.7.2.), (the no-repeater QSO  stipulation) 
>is waived for satellite QSOs. Groups are allowed one dedicated  satellite 
>transmitter station without increasing their entry category. Satellite  QSOs 
>also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the  summary 
>sheet as a separate "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for  
>contacting different satellites, though the additional QSOs may be counted for 
> 
>QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1. The QSO must be between two  
>Earth stations through a satellite. Available to Classes A, B, and F. 
>
> 
> 
> 73,
> 
> Andreas, N6NU, CM87VK
> 
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Patrick Green]

The ARRL should impose an ERP limit for satellite contacts.  That
would solve the problem.  I don't see how running amplifiers on FD is
in the spirit of what FD is all about.  I've made contacts using 50 mw
so why do stations use 100+ watts *before* the antenna..  I wouldn't
want my kids playing around a FD site with this time of setup.

73 de Pat --- KA9SCF.
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[amsat-bb] Re: [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened?

[Bob- W7LRD]

I can only imagine a ham nut messing around on 20cw on the other side of the 
planet doing 17,000mph.  The mind wanders! 

73 Bob W7LRD 



- Original Message -




From: "R Oler"  
To: w7...@comcast.net, pisym...@gmail.com 
Cc: "Amsat BB"  
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:44:21 AM 
Subject: RE: [amsat-bb] Re: [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened? 


Bob.  The odds of getting a "real ham" are pretty small in my view.  There will 
be the occasional person who is either interested in the effort pre launch or 
gets that way due to circumstances aboard the station, but that's going to be 
rare particularly as long as the folks doing the flying are "NASA employees".  

What I would hope for more is a real ham setup on ISS.  something other then a 
digi or a psuedo FM bird.  A real transponder would be nice.  

Robert G. Oler WB5MZO (Life member AMSAT ARRL NARS) 


> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:47:31 + 
> From: w7...@comcast.net 
> To: pisym...@gmail.com 
> CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org 
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened? 
> 
> 
> 
> This may open a can of worms-However,  I'd like to see a "real" ham on the 
> ISS.  We all know what that means.  Granted they all take the tech license to 
> be "official" amateur radio operators.  However we don't see the "passion" in 
> the belly to get on the air.  There have been a few up there that had that 
> and it was noticable.  
> 
> 73 Bob W7LRD 
> 
> Seattle 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> 
> From: "Alexander Sack"  
> To: "amsat-bb"  
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:08:17 AM 
> Subject: [amsat-bb]  [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened? 
> 
> So I think everyone read the announcement ARRL made before FD.  Now 
> that FD weekend is at an end, can someone explain to me why NASA 
> couldn't let the astronauts have 10 minutes on the radio for one pass? 
>  I mean were they having issues with the radio itself? 
> 
> I still don't see a 26th timeline as I thought that might give me a 
> clue on why this weekend was an epic failure (I mean I couldn't even 
> hear the digipeater at times). 
> 
> -aps (KC2ZSX) 
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[amsat-bb] Linear Transponder on the ISS.

[Douglas Phelps]

This is such an obvious question that I think there must be a reason it has not 
been done.  I would like someone to explain why it is not possible or 
probable.  
I am not seeking to start a flame war.

Why can't we put a SSB/CW linear transponder on the ISS?  It could run whenever 
the ISS FM station is not being used.  It could use the same antennas.  It 
would 
seem to be an easy way to put up another linear transponder with a good signal 
favoring stations without large antennas.  Could this be a way to bring SSB/CW 
activity to a larger audience.

I would appreciate hearing from anyone that could shed some light on this.  
Thanks,

Doug
K9DLP
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[STeve Andre']

Well, is IS a contest, no matter what the ARRL says.  People see it as such.
My first FD before I was a ham, looked like a contest to me and it was only
later, reading all the ARRL books I could get ahold of that I realized it
really wasn't one.

All contests where you go outside are test runs for emergency stuff.
Our club in Ann Arbor MI (Arrow Communication Association) does the
summer vhf+ contests outside (6m-1296) and those have been a great
way to figure out  ways of doing stuff.

I would argue that the ARRL needs to change the way they talk, and
offer FD as both a contest and exercise in communications, and
speak of the exercise opportunities at the other contests, especially
those of rovers.

--STeve Andre'
wb8wsf  en72

On 06/27/11 14:21, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?
>
> On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
>> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth is 
>> good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t 
>> that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage 
>> specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
>>
>

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Reicher, James]

The ARRL doesn't care!  According to them, "Field Day is not a contest; no 
certificates are awarded" and 
"ARRL Field Day is not a fully adjudicated contest, which explains much of its 
popularity"

So, no awards, no disqualifications.  Just posting your scores on the wall with 
nothing to back it up.


In other words, it's one giant fish story.  The biggest liar wins.



73 de W0HV, Jim in Raymore, MO  
Light travels faster than sound...  This is why some people appear bright until 
you hear them speak.


Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:51:42 -0500
From: Floyd Rodgers 
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Message-ID: <4e08b51e.4090...@swbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Guys, this seems simple to fix. The arrl gets the logs of everyone. How 
hard is it to build a table of the sat contacts and check who gets more 
than the allowed one contact?


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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[John Geiger]

Of course it isn't a contest.  The best evidence is that they print the
scores in QST!

73s John AA5JG

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:09 PM, STeve Andre'  wrote:

> Well, is IS a contest, no matter what the ARRL says.  People see it as
> such.
> My first FD before I was a ham, looked like a contest to me and it was only
> later, reading all the ARRL books I could get ahold of that I realized it
> really wasn't one.
>
> All contests where you go outside are test runs for emergency stuff.
> Our club in Ann Arbor MI (Arrow Communication Association) does the
> summer vhf+ contests outside (6m-1296) and those have been a great
> way to figure out  ways of doing stuff.
>
> I would argue that the ARRL needs to change the way they talk, and
> offer FD as both a contest and exercise in communications, and
> speak of the exercise opportunities at the other contests, especially
> those of rovers.
>
> --STeve Andre'
> wb8wsf  en72
>
> On 06/27/11 14:21, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> > A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> > your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> > FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?
> >
> > On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
> >> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth
> is good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t
> that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage
> specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
> >>
> >
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Bob- W7LRD]

After all the hoopala settles.  When/where else can you play with radios, go 
camping, go potty in the woods, get bug bites, have a good time with friends, 
and figure how all this stuff works.  Because,  just maybe, one day you'll have 
to do it for real! 

still scratching bites 

73 Bob W7LRD 

Seattle 



- Original Message -


From: "STeve Andre'"  
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 12:09:45 PM 
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess 

Well, is IS a contest, no matter what the ARRL says.  People see it as such. 
My first FD before I was a ham, looked like a contest to me and it was only 
later, reading all the ARRL books I could get ahold of that I realized it 
really wasn't one. 

All contests where you go outside are test runs for emergency stuff. 
Our club in Ann Arbor MI (Arrow Communication Association) does the 
summer vhf+ contests outside (6m-1296) and those have been a great 
way to figure out  ways of doing stuff. 

I would argue that the ARRL needs to change the way they talk, and 
offer FD as both a contest and exercise in communications, and 
speak of the exercise opportunities at the other contests, especially 
those of rovers. 

--STeve Andre' 
wb8wsf  en72 

On 06/27/11 14:21, Nigel Gunn wrote: 
> A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate 
> your emergency comms ability to Joe Public. 
> FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all? 
> 
> On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote: 
>> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth is 
>> good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t 
>> that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage 
>> specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc. 
>> 
> 

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[STeve Andre']

Me, I'm recovering from bad sunburn.  I look like a lobster ready for 
dinner...

--STeve Andre'
wb8wsf  en72

On 06/27/11 15:40, Bob- W7LRD wrote:
>
> After all the hoopala settles.  When/where else can you play with 
> radios, go camping, go potty in the woods, get bug bites, have a good 
> time with friends, and figure how all this stuff works.  Because, 
>  just maybe, one day you'll have to do it for real!
>
> still scratching bites
>
> 73 Bob W7LRD
>
> Seattle
>
> 
>
> *From: *"STeve Andre'" 
> *To: *amsat-bb@amsat.org
> *Sent: *Monday, June 27, 2011 12:09:45 PM
> *Subject: *[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>
> Well, is IS a contest, no matter what the ARRL says.  People see it as 
> such.
> My first FD before I was a ham, looked like a contest to me and it was 
> only
> later, reading all the ARRL books I could get ahold of that I realized it
> really wasn't one.
>
> All contests where you go outside are test runs for emergency stuff.
> Our club in Ann Arbor MI (Arrow Communication Association) does the
> summer vhf+ contests outside (6m-1296) and those have been a great
> way to figure out  ways of doing stuff.
>
> I would argue that the ARRL needs to change the way they talk, and
> offer FD as both a contest and exercise in communications, and
> speak of the exercise opportunities at the other contests, especially
> those of rovers.
>
> --STeve Andre'
> wb8wsf  en72
>
> On 06/27/11 14:21, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> > A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> > your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> > FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?
> >
> > On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
> >> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the 
> bandwidth is good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite 
> activity”. Wasn’t that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” 
> items? To encourage specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, 
> emergency power, etc.
> >>
> >
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[John Geiger]

That is a good point.  I am sure that if/when the big one hits and we need
to pass emergency communications, we will have to do it under less than
optimal conditions or "rules" including on the satellites.  When such an
occassion occurs, I doubt everyone will be limiting themselves to 5 watts or
less, or only 1 QSO per satellite per day or weekend.  I think most people
will be trying to get through any way they can to pass traffic.  We should
get used to the pandamonium, that it what it will actually be like.

73s John AA5JG

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Bob- W7LRD  wrote:

>
>
>  Because,  just maybe, one day you'll have to do it for real!
>
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Dee]

Wow,

This certainly brought about heavy criticism from the satellite community.
I for one encourage this discussion.  It seems to break down to having a
satellite that is a linear bird and wide enough to let everyone find a good
spot and communicate- something like the HF bands provided this past
weekend.

It seems that the Field day ops would like to see another HEO or MEO linear
since most of them came armed for this type of bird usage.   The FM birds
are not a useful item for the one QSO that is needed for these 100 points.
I had an ARROW that was split up on a Yaesu rotor with LVB tracker
controlling the antenna and rig.  This was a great conversation demo while
waiting for a pass.  Many interested operators and satellite user wanabees
came to look at the neat stuff.  

Unfortunately, In order to get another HEO or MEO bird the class of OSCAR
10,  13,  and/or 40 will take a campaign that will ask us operators to dig
deep into our  pockets to produce such a satellite.  With ITAR in recent
memory as a roadblock to international co-operation, collaboration between
AMSAT organizations is at an impasse.  Yes, the smaller more compact
cubesats are filled with the newest technology and I believe that this is
the way to go.  ARRISat is due to be dropped off in orbit in July and has
this type of electronics.  Another LEO.

I will be monitoring and keeping track of people that are reminiscing about
the linear birds we used in the past and were able to satisfy the needs of
all that wanted to have a QSO via Satellites.  If you feel like me about a
new campaign, it is going to have a big price tag.  This is why we assist
the higher learning institutions to assemble a linear bird along with their
experiments since they have the money to put them together along with a
"launch opportunity."  This saves the satellite community very hard to find
funding.  

 

Dee Interdonato, NB2F

 

 

Dee Interdonato

118 Westervelt Place

Lodi, NJ 07644

973-772-8229

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[amsat-bb] Field Day

[jerry keeton]

My take on the field day sats:

Why not some one on the East Coast and some one on the West Coast volunteer to 
operate as a net . That way there would not be the 2 way confusion . A net 
control could confirm the contacts much faster and get many more contacts. Just 
a thought.

Jerry WB5LHD
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[amsat-bb] How to get started on SSB birds

[Jeremy Widner]

I have been doing FM birds for a couple of years now with HTs and Arrow
antennas.  I am ready to start messing with the other birds.  I have a
Kenwood TS-2000 for a rig.  I do NOT currently have a tower up.  I was
wondering antenna suggestions you guys might have to jump into the ssb birds
without using a tower.  My preference is to build something as money is
always an issue (insert wife).

-- 
73
Jeremy Widner
K0PDX
http://k0pdx.us
Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
http://k0gq.com/
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[wa4hfn]

Build  Egg beaters

- Original Message -
From: "Jeremy Widner" 
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 3:00:28 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb]  How to get started on SSB birds

I have been doing FM birds for a couple of years now with HTs and Arrow
antennas.  I am ready to start messing with the other birds.  I have a
Kenwood TS-2000 for a rig.  I do NOT currently have a tower up.  I was
wondering antenna suggestions you guys might have to jump into the ssb birds
without using a tower.  My preference is to build something as money is
always an issue (insert wife).

-- 
73
Jeremy Widner
K0PDX
http://k0pdx.us
Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
http://k0gq.com/
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[Jeremy Widner]

I forgot one more question.  What bird would be the best to get started on
with SSB?

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:09 PM,  wrote:

> Build  Egg beaters
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeremy Widner" 
> To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 3:00:28 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb]  How to get started on SSB birds
>
> I have been doing FM birds for a couple of years now with HTs and Arrow
> antennas.  I am ready to start messing with the other birds.  I have a
> Kenwood TS-2000 for a rig.  I do NOT currently have a tower up.  I was
> wondering antenna suggestions you guys might have to jump into the ssb
> birds
> without using a tower.  My preference is to build something as money is
> always an issue (insert wife).
>
> --
> 73
> Jeremy Widner
> K0PDX
> http://k0pdx.us
> Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
> http://k0gq.com/
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-- 
73
Jeremy Widner
K0PDX
http://k0pdx.us
Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
http://k0gq.com/
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[PE0SAT]

Hi Jeremy,


Have a look at the following link: http://www.ham.vgnet.nl/?Satellite:Help
maybe this will give you the information you're looking for.


73 Jan PE0SAT

On Mon, June 27, 2011 22:00, Jeremy Widner wrote:
> I have been doing FM birds for a couple of years now with HTs and Arrow
> antennas.  I am ready to start messing with the other birds.  I have a
> Kenwood TS-2000 for a rig.  I do NOT currently have a tower up.  I was
> wondering antenna suggestions you guys might have to jump into the ssb
> birds
> without using a tower.  My preference is to build something as money is
> always an issue (insert wife).
>
> --
> 73
> Jeremy Widner
> K0PDX
> http://k0pdx.us
> Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
> http://k0gq.com/
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-- 
With regards Jan H. van Gils
Internet web-page http://www.VGNet.NL/
Internet e-mail address JanVG[at]VGNet.NL

Niet Zwammen maar doen ..


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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[Andrew Glasbrenner]

The first and smallest step would be to take that Arrow, hook it to your 
2000 on a picnic table or tailgate, and start listening to passes. That 
will copy all of the transponder satellites. Tune around, listen, and 
then work on making a QSO or two. The rest will go pretty naturally.

73, Drew KO4MA
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Gordon JC Pearce]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:48:48 -0500
Patrick Green  wrote:

> The ARRL should impose an ERP limit for satellite contacts.  That
> would solve the problem.  I don't see how running amplifiers on FD is
> in the spirit of what FD is all about.  I've made contacts using 50 mw
> so why do stations use 100+ watts *before* the antenna..  I wouldn't
> want my kids playing around a FD site with this time of setup.

Wouldn't that be AMSAT's job?  It's certainly possible to work an FM bird with 
5W from a handie, and a hand-held yagi.

I don't understand the obsession with having all-singing-all-dancing 
computer-controlled setups, where it automatically updates its orbital 
elements, automatically calculates when the next pass is, automatically 
calculates where to steer the aerial and what to tune the radio to and leaving 
the operator to just push the PTT and shout over the top of the QRP/P stations.

All the computer-controlled stuff just plain isn't amateur radio.  If you want 
to sit in front of a computer and talk to people, use Skype.

Gordon MM0YEQ
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[Jeremy Widner]

I am going to assume my IC-706 should work with the exception of the 70cm
birds correct?  That is what is mounted in the jeep and a little easier to
work with than the 2000.

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner <
glasbren...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> The first and smallest step would be to take that Arrow, hook it to your
> 2000 on a picnic table or tailgate, and start listening to passes. That will
> copy all of the transponder satellites. Tune around, listen, and then work
> on making a QSO or two. The rest will go pretty naturally.
>
> 73, Drew KO4MA
>



-- 
73
Jeremy Widner
K0PDX
http://k0pdx.us
Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
http://k0gq.com/
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[Andrew Glasbrenner]

On 6/27/2011 4:30 PM, Jeremy Widner wrote:
> I am going to assume my IC-706 should work with the exception of the 
> 70cm birds correct?  That is what is mounted in the jeep and a little 
> easier to work with than the 2000.
>
The 706 will receive VO-52 and AO-7 just fine. Remember AO-7 alternates 
2m and 10m downlinks every 24 hours. I'll suggest you'll even copy some 
VO-52 traffic with a mobile antenna.

73, Drew KO4MA
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[PE0SAT]

Jeremy give VO-52 a change, great SAT

73 Jan PE0SAT


On Mon, June 27, 2011 22:15, Jeremy Widner wrote:
> I forgot one more question.  What bird would be the best to get started on
> with SSB?
>
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:09 PM,  wrote:
>
>> Build  Egg beaters
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Jeremy Widner" 
>> To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
>> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 3:00:28 PM
>> Subject: [amsat-bb]  How to get started on SSB birds
>>
>> I have been doing FM birds for a couple of years now with HTs and Arrow
>> antennas.  I am ready to start messing with the other birds.  I have a
>> Kenwood TS-2000 for a rig.  I do NOT currently have a tower up.  I was
>> wondering antenna suggestions you guys might have to jump into the ssb
>> birds
>> without using a tower.  My preference is to build something as money is
>> always an issue (insert wife).
>>
>> --
>> 73
>> Jeremy Widner
>> K0PDX
>> http://k0pdx.us
>> Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
>> http://k0gq.com/
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> 73
> Jeremy Widner
> K0PDX
> http://k0pdx.us
> Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
> http://k0gq.com/
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-- 
With regards Jan H. van Gils
Internet web-page http://www.VGNet.NL/
Internet e-mail address JanVG[at]VGNet.NL

Niet Zwammen maar doen ..


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[amsat-bb] Mailing List

[David Barber]

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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[wa4hfn]

Jeremy
 First thing MAKE SURE YOU CAN HEAR THE BIRDS all to often ops will call cq 
,hell whistle and all sorts of noise making.
 You can hit the birds with 1 watt but if you cant hear it we can still hear 
you. A 70cm preamp with t/r would be a good investment
Then look at KO4MA  cheap yagis
Hope to work you soon
WA4HFN

- Original Message -
From: "Jeremy Widner" 
To: "Andrew Glasbrenner" 
Cc: "AMSAT" 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 3:30:47 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

I am going to assume my IC-706 should work with the exception of the 70cm
birds correct?  That is what is mounted in the jeep and a little easier to
work with than the 2000.

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Andrew Glasbrenner <
glasbren...@mindspring.com> wrote:

> The first and smallest step would be to take that Arrow, hook it to your
> 2000 on a picnic table or tailgate, and start listening to passes. That will
> copy all of the transponder satellites. Tune around, listen, and then work
> on making a QSO or two. The rest will go pretty naturally.
>
> 73, Drew KO4MA
>



-- 
73
Jeremy Widner
K0PDX
http://k0pdx.us
Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
http://k0gq.com/
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Bill Acito W1PA]

>Note that it says "additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit ***unless 
>prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1*** " (emphasis mine), which you conveniently 
>omitted. Rule 7.3.7.1 says "Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO 
>on any single channel FM satellite."
>So yes, there IS such a rule.

7.3.7. Satellite QSO: 100 bonus points for successfully completing at least 
one QSO via an
amateur radio satellite during the Field Day period. "General Rules for All 
ARRL Contests" (Rule
3.7.2.), (the no-repeater QSO stipulation) is waived for satellite QSOs. 
Groups are allowed one
dedicated satellite transmitter station without increasing their entry 
category.
Satellite QSOs also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed 
separately on the summary sheet as a separate
"band."
You do not receive an additional bonus for contacting different satellites, 
though the
additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 
7.3.7.1. The QSO
must be between two Earth stations through a satellite. Available to Classes 
A, B, and F.
7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel 
FM satellite.


Yes, so I read this to say:
You can make as many satellite QSO's as you want.
They count as another band, each counts for QSO credit.
You get 100 bonus point when you make the first
Only one QSO out of the total QSOs can come from any/all of the FM 
birds.

Could a lot of the "multi-QSO" issues have come from the fact that folks 
simply didn't understand the rules?

Bill
W1PA

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[k6yk]

 
FD is a mess every year. No matter what bird(s) you try. 

Most of the FD stations have no clue about satellites, they just get 
the idea they need to make 1 satellite contact or as many as they can. 
They don't know about all the rules particular to AMSAT, and they 
dont' care. 

They ask somebody what frequency to transmit and listen on and then
they get their 500 watt amp, big beam or no beam, no preamp, and 
start calling and calling. They don't hear anything so they just mess up
the
whole works.  Happens every year. 

You either have to bear with it and make your one contact or give up.

73, 
K6YK


On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:33:34 +0100 Gordon JC Pearce 
writes:
> On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:48:48 -0500
> Patrick Green  wrote:
> 
> > The ARRL should impose an ERP limit for satellite contacts.  That
> > would solve the problem.  I don't see how running amplifiers on FD 
> is
> > in the spirit of what FD is all about.  I've made contacts using 
> 50 mw
> > so why do stations use 100+ watts *before* the antenna..  I 
> wouldn't
> > want my kids playing around a FD site with this time of setup.
> 
> Wouldn't that be AMSAT's job?  It's certainly possible to work an FM 
> bird with 5W from a handie, and a hand-held yagi.
> 
> I don't understand the obsession with having all-singing-all-dancing 
> computer-controlled setups, where it automatically updates its 
> orbital elements, automatically calculates when the next pass is, 
> automatically calculates where to steer the aerial and what to tune 
> the radio to and leaving the operator to just push the PTT and shout 
> over the top of the QRP/P stations.
> 
> All the computer-controlled stuff just plain isn't amateur radio.  
> If you want to sit in front of a computer and talk to people, use 
> Skype.
> 
> Gordon MM0YEQ
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> 
 

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1 ridiculously huge coupon a day. Get 50-90% off your city's best!
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Diane Bruce]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 03:13:34PM +, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:
> It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too 
> many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not 
> have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL 
> world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
> WA4HFN em55  Damon

I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes.
I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use
during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them
off during field day to stop this.

Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.

Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.

- 73 Diane VA3DB
-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db
  Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?
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[amsat-bb] Off Topic AO-27/ISS

[Kevin Deane]

When AO-27 goes in digital mode what is that D-Star??? I take it if I had that 
equipment would I be able to communicate with people or is that the sats time 
for basic telemetry/control operator stuff?
 
Also I have been hearing packet on AO-51, does someone expect a response? I am 
tempted to have my software loaded and see who it is. I would think responding 
would piss people off so I wont be doing that.
 
ISS... I have been hearing packet on 145.825 but have not been getting in, 8 
hours since anyone has and the signal seems alot weaker than normal???
 
Thanks for any info/opinions!
 
Kevin
KF7MYK
 
  
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Edward R. Cole]

At 07:13 AM 6/27/2011, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:
>It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There 
>were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts 
>.This should not have happened. Maybe someone with good writting 
>skills could send the ARRL world above 50 an artical on how to work 
>the birds during FD
>WA4HFN em55  Damon
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Good luck on that.  But if you are able to reach someone at ARRL, 
suggest that any log with more than one satellite entry have his 
100points disqualified.  Do satellite hams actually read "World Above 
50 MHz"?  Better a separate article on working satellite during 
FD.  A lot of stations working the sats on FD do not work satellites 
anytime other than that.

And BTW there are some SSB transponder satellites for use, the 
problem is the majority of satellite users today balk at obtaining 
equipment for anything but working the FM Leos.  Its the old saw: 
"you can lead a horse to water, ...".

Another old saw goes: "you asked for it, now live with it"!

One last rhetorical question: "does anyone recall the last time they 
contacted KL7UW on a satellite?"  Was it FM or SSB?
I'm back to Oscar-Zero where I use JT-65.



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com
==

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[George Henry]

The intent of the rule was to reduce the congestion on the FM satellites by 
getting stations OFF them after making their one QSO, thereby giving more 
stations the opportunity to make a QSO.  So the way I interpret it, and the way 
I've operated since the rule was adopted (and I was one of those who hounded 
the 
ARRL to adopt it), is "ONE and you're DONE."  


Not two, or twenty, and you only get to SCORE one...

ONE.  


George, KA3HSW



- Original Message 
> From: Bill Acito W1PA 
> To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 3:59:09 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[snip]

> Yes, so I read this to say:
> You can make  as many satellite QSO's as you want.
> They count as another  band, each counts for QSO credit.
> You get 100 bonus point when  you make the first
> Only one QSO out of the total QSOs can come  from any/all of the FM 
> birds.
> 
> Could a lot of the "multi-QSO" issues  have come from the fact that folks 
> simply didn't understand the  rules?
> 
> Bill
> W1PA
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Bob Bruninga]

I am always amused by FD on the FM birds, and even more so the post-action
comments that:

1) Don't understand what 2600 FM carriers on the input of an FM repeater
does
2) Think that the other 2599 are LIDS and KIDS and are abusing the system
3) But they are doing it right by calling CQ with 5 watts
4) Have high expectations of making a contact
5) And then blame others when they don't.
6) Build up public expectations during demos and then fail miserably
7) etc etc...

Everyone with a license should know what "doubling" on an FM repeater sounds
like.  Now multiply that by 2600 and you should have ZERO expectation of
anyone getting through... EXCEPT those that are 10 dB closer to the
repeater, or 10 dB stronger than EVERYONE ELSE.  In space, everyone is
somewhere between 400 to 1500 miles away, so there is only a small
discrimination in range (but it does give everyone a slightly better chance
for a minute or 2).

Even if EVERYONE ran 5 watts, still absolutely no one would get through.
Even if only 10% are actually key-down for 1 second to see if they can get
in, that is still 260 signals at 5W each or about 1300 W. (continuous
horizon to horizon).

Thank goodness a few people ran enough power to overcome the input NOISE
floor and made a contact so that those of us doing RECEIVE-ONLY Demo's had
something to demo.  And to educate observers about the nature of a single
channel FM bird... and a few comments about human nature.

Having high expectations and then condemning other operators is the wrong
way to demo ham radio.  It only shows that one does not have a good
understanding of the system, of RF, and of human nature.  Everyone should
read the "Tragedy of the commons". We have known about this problem of human
nature for hundreds of years.  It's amazing how many people have to learn it
every year at FD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Remember, the THEM is you and me.

Bob, Wb4APR

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Majdi S. Abbas]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 05:18:54PM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote:
> Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
> are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
> promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
> operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
> surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
> the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
> 
> Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.

Sure, the person operating the radio is trying to collect the
bonus points for their operation.  

But most Field Day operations are a *group* effort.  Many of
the hams present may never have operated a satellite, and if shown
that they can get on the FM sats relatively easily, may give it a
try.  There are typically dozens of people present besides the
satellite operator, at least a few of which express some interest.  

People who collect bonus points usually go for the public
location/information table bonus as well, so you may be introducing
possible future hams to satellite work.

If the argument is 'show me the data,' feel free to go collect it;
the published FD scores is a good starting point for reaching out to
the involved parties.  Or you could fund a survey.  

It seems silly to demand that outreach be justified for you;
without it, you won't need those satellites anyway.  Lack of outreach
is a self correcting problem -- just add time, and there won't be any
satellites left.

73,

Majdi, N0RMZ
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[amsat-bb] Re: Off Topic AO-27/ISS

[George Henry]

That's 1200 baud AFSK telemetry.  See  for 
a 
link to download the telemetry-gathering program & instructions on how to 
record 
& submit your telemetry captures.


George, KA3HSW





- Original Message 
> From: Kevin Deane 
> To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:29:32 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb]  Off Topic AO-27/ISS
> 
> 
> When AO-27 goes in digital mode what is that D-Star??? I take it if I had  
> that 
>equipment would I be able to communicate with people or is that the sats  time 
>for basic telemetry/control operator stuff?
> 
[snip]
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Tim Cunningham]

Read the AMSAT rules. The title of the AMSAT rules IS clear when you read 
the title as "2011 AMSAT Field Day Competition ".


Tim - N8DEU


- Original Message - 
From: "John Geiger" 
To: "STeve Andre'" 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess


Of course it isn't a contest.  The best evidence is that they print the
scores in QST!

73s John AA5JG

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:09 PM, STeve Andre'  wrote:

> Well, is IS a contest, no matter what the ARRL says.  People see it as
> such.
> My first FD before I was a ham, looked like a contest to me and it was 
> only
> later, reading all the ARRL books I could get ahold of that I realized it
> really wasn't one.
>
> All contests where you go outside are test runs for emergency stuff.
> Our club in Ann Arbor MI (Arrow Communication Association) does the
> summer vhf+ contests outside (6m-1296) and those have been a great
> way to figure out  ways of doing stuff.
>
> I would argue that the ARRL needs to change the way they talk, and
> offer FD as both a contest and exercise in communications, and
> speak of the exercise opportunities at the other contests, especially
> those of rovers.
>
> --STeve Andre'
> wb8wsf  en72
>
> On 06/27/11 14:21, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> > A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> > your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> > FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?
> >
> > On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
> >> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth
> is good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t
> that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage
> specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
> >>
> >
>
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[amsat-bb] Field Day Recordings Posted

[John Papay]

Field Day recordings for AO-51, AO-27 and SO-50
are on my website.  The late night-early morning
passes were not crowded and could have provided
opportunities for those trying to make the 100 point
bonus.

The recordings were made from my home station on autopilot.
Polarity was fixed on left-hand circular to favor AO-51.
AO-27 is usually better on right hand but left hand works
for most of the pass.  SO-50 flops back and forth so it's
not all there.

We report; you decide.

http://www.papays.com/sat

73,
John K8YSE 

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Nigel A. Gunn]

True but Fd is an ARRL event and has nowt to do with AMSAT.

On 27/06/11 22:49, Tim Cunningham wrote:
> Read the AMSAT rules. The title of the AMSAT rules IS clear when you read
> the title as "2011 AMSAT Field Day Competition ".
>
>
> Tim - N8DEU

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[KM9U]

Do we really need to write more and/or change the rules. We just need to 
obey the rules we learned a long time ago. Really, aren't the rules that 
govern Amateur Radio Etiquette similar to the same rules that we learned in 
Kindergarten?
"These are the things I learned:
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and 
sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and 
stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the 
roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why, 
but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the 
Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you 
learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK."
Everything you need to know about Ham Radio and life in general is in there 
somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and 
politics and equality and sane living.
[Source: "ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN" by Robert 
Fulghum]

;-)) And here's to wishing you a Happy Field Day 2012!
Chuck, KM9U



- Original Message - 
From: "Tim Cunningham" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 17:49
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess


Read the AMSAT rules. The title of the AMSAT rules IS clear when you read
the title as "2011 AMSAT Field Day Competition ".


Tim - N8DEU


- Original Message - 
From: "John Geiger" 
To: "STeve Andre'" 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess


Of course it isn't a contest.  The best evidence is that they print the
scores in QST!

73s John AA5JG

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:09 PM, STeve Andre'  wrote:

> Well, is IS a contest, no matter what the ARRL says.  People see it as
> such.
> My first FD before I was a ham, looked like a contest to me and it was
> only
> later, reading all the ARRL books I could get ahold of that I realized it
> really wasn't one.
>
> All contests where you go outside are test runs for emergency stuff.
> Our club in Ann Arbor MI (Arrow Communication Association) does the
> summer vhf+ contests outside (6m-1296) and those have been a great
> way to figure out  ways of doing stuff.
>
> I would argue that the ARRL needs to change the way they talk, and
> offer FD as both a contest and exercise in communications, and
> speak of the exercise opportunities at the other contests, especially
> those of rovers.
>
> --STeve Andre'
> wb8wsf  en72
>
> On 06/27/11 14:21, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> > A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> > your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> > FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?
> >
> > On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
> >> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth
> is good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t
> that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage
> specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
> >>
> >
>
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[amsat-bb] A Big Thank You for your care of the crippled bird!

[James Luhn]

Yes, FD is always a mess.  Usually a good mess of food, friends, bugs, 
and all.  We made a satellite contact through AO-51 running 5-10 watts 
with an Arrow antenna.  We had quite the audience as everyone wanted to 
see a satellite contact made and the audience was also curious why it 
took 4 of us to make the contact.  We had one to hold the radio, one to 
operate the microphone and chase the frequency, one to hold and direct 
the antenna, and one to hold a 50lb battery. Did we need 4? of course 
not! The excitement of working a satellite simply had everyone focused 
on making the contact and not on the fact that the equipment did not 
need to be held.  Heck, we even had a tripod for the antenna. I'm sure 
someone had it in hand too!  Through the hard work of those keeping poor 
old AO-51 together and operating, we were able to add a whole bunch of 
excitement to our FD mess.  A big THANK YOU to all involved.  Your 
efforts are sincerely appreciated.  We had a great time at FD.
73,
James
W5AOO
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Diane Bruce]

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 02:42:19PM -0700, Majdi S. Abbas wrote:
...
> 
>   Sure, the person operating the radio is trying to collect the
> bonus points for their operation.  
> 
>   But most Field Day operations are a *group* effort.  Many of
> the hams present may never have operated a satellite, and if shown

Sure. Both Clare VE3NPC and I have helped our club during field day
in previou years, get at least one contact through a satellite.
It amazes me how many antennas Clare can bring to a field day in the
back of his station wagon. ;-) The FD mess situation is something
we discussed for a few minutes at this years Field Day.
(Note we are both AMSAT coodinators in the Ottawa area)

> 
>   People who collect bonus points usually go for the public
> location/information table bonus as well, so you may be introducing
> possible future hams to satellite work.

That it might. I always do mention the amateur radio satellites when I do
face-to-face PR at field day.

...

>   If the argument is 'show me the data,' feel free to go collect it;
> the published FD scores is a good starting point for reaching out to
> the involved parties.  ...

It would be nice if the ARRL could ask for additional data from sat entries.

> Or you could fund a survey.  

I've suggested at least informal surveys could be conducted by AMSAT-NA.
I've donated money to AMSAT-NA, our club (http://www.oarc.net) donates money
to AMSAT-NA, surely AMSAT-NA could afford to run a simple e-mail survey.
I'd help do it if I was asked. 

>   It seems silly to demand that outreach be justified for you;
> without it, you won't need those satellites anyway.  Lack of outreach

I've done my share of outreach in my area, that is not what I was demanding.
I am simply asking, "Can we think of ways we can do things better?"

After seeing some other replies the "FD mess", it's rather obvious we
are seeing the symptoms, not the problem.  We are failing to educate.

I'm mulling over a few ideas. Perhaps we should ask ARRL to only
give points for GOTA stations on sats? That way we maximise our sat
outreach. 

Anyone else have ideas?

> 
>   73,
> 
>   Majdi, N0RMZ

- 73 Diane VA3DB (AMSAT Coordinator, but sure not speaking for AMSAT)
 (ex OARC club president, but sure not speaking for them either)
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds (antennas)

[PA3GUO]

> My preference is to build something 

Hi Jeremy !

Yesterday I finished constructing my new antenna for 70cm, a 16 elements DK7ZB. 
 
My Requirements: 
- Needs to work for EME at 432 MHz (15.5 dBd / 16 elements has been used 
successfully by others) 
- Needs to work for satellite communication (needs to elevate up to 90 degrees: 
can not be longer as 4 meter) 
- Avoid complex circular polarization this time (linear polarization had proven 
to work fine for Cubesats) 
 
Selected design: 
- 16 elements DK7ZB 
- 15.5 dBd 
- length 3.86 meter 
 
Results: 
- Fantastic ! 
- Compared to the 12 elements beam I can decode Cubesats (FO-69, O/OREOS) now 
much earlier 
- Decoding (not hearing!) FO-69 improved from 5..7 degrees elevation to 2..3 
degrees 
- Have not done any EME tests yet 
 
Here are the photo's: 
http://www.pa3guo.com/dk7zb_70cm.html 

Btw: not sure if building is actually cheaper as buying: this antenna costed me 
~90$
(but it is more fun !)

--
Henk, PA3GUO
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[amsat-bb] Re: Off Topic AO-27/ISS

[Jeremy Bomkamp]

Kevin

When AO-27 is in digital mode it is transmitting telemetry, I think you can 
download the program to decode it on the AO-27 website.  I haven't heard the 
digital on AO-51 but it is probably APRS/Packet and who knows why unless 
someone 
decodes it, there was a lot of packet on HO-68 when it was in FM mode but a lot 
was autobeacons meant for the ISS.

The ISS sounded normal as far as signal strength on Saturday, but I haven't 
heard it since, the last pass(2140Z) was a high pass and I didn't hear anything 
on 145.800 or 145.825, can you decode any of the packets you hear?  If they are 
from the ISS the packet will start with RS0ISS-4(or -3 as has been used 
recently 
for whatever reason) or the packet will have RS0ISS-4* or RS0ISS-3* indicating 
it was digipeated by the ISS.  The RS0ISS-3 started being used around June 18, 
but it did use -4 a couple times since

AB9RU
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Joe]

Ok,

The thought there was to promote activity.

OK  fine,  It's obvious that the FM birds do not have any sort of lack 
of activity.

So

How about for FD and the Amsat FD  that the contest QSO's only count if 
they are made on a non FM bird?

That would cure the problem of the 11 meter FM birds and promote on the 
less used linear birds.  It is still a bird QSO  but in the spirit of 
when it was created when none of these FM birds even existed.

Joe WB9SBD

The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com

On 6/27/2011 1:13 PM, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
> I did not participate in FD this year, but I have certainly heard my share of 
> them in recent years.
>
> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth is 
> good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t that 
> the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage specific 
> activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
>
> The FM birds have fixed bandwidth --  nothing we can do. There is no 
> mechanism to restrict FD stations to only one QSO on any FM bird. If you read 
> the FD rules, you can make multiple contacts on the SSB birds, and they do 
> count for QSO credit beyond the 100 point bonus – you can only make one QSO 
> on any FM bird:
>
> 7.3.7. Satellite QSO: 100 bonus points for successfully completing at least 
> one QSO via an
> amateur radio satellite during the Field Day period. "General Rules for All 
> ARRL Contests" (Rule
> 3.7.2.), (the no-repeater QSO stipulation) is waived for satellite QSOs. 
> Groups are allowed one
> dedicated satellite transmitter station without increasing their entry 
> category. Satellite QSOs also
> count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary 
> sheet as a separate
> "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for contacting different 
> satellites, though the
> additional QSOs may be counted for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 
> 7.3.7.1. The QSO
> must be between two Earth stations through a satellite. Available to Classes 
> A, B, and F.
> 7.3.7.1 Stations are limited to one (1) completed QSO on any single channel 
> FM satellite.
>
>
> And there is certainly no mechanism to restrict the ERP that gets used. Is 
> anyone really surprised it sounds like it does?
>
> IMHO, I think it does more harm than good in promoting this aspect of the 
> hobby, for a potential newbie to hear the FM birds on FD...  restrict 
> activity to the transponder (SSB/CW) birds and be done with it – no FM 
> satellite QSO’s at all during FD.   Or have it like the ARRL Bulletin --- RX 
> only; copy some valid telemetry to get points.
>
> Bill
> W1PA
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Dave Guimont]

May God Bless You, Chuck.

North Shores Amateur Radio Club in San Diego won the first AMSAT contest,
and by quite a margin as I remember. Bruce knows all the scores and the year.
And I'm sure it is on our site...

We operated a low power station with two 
experienced hamsat operators, with plenty of help 
with logging, food, drinks and all the other 
"chores", about 15 members total.  Antennas were 
all homebrew, and the plans for those antennas 
are still on my website, and I''ll put it up here after this message.

We were unable to "overpower" anyone, and would 
not choose to do so, if we had the power.

We exchanged qsl's with 95% of the contacts (sent 
100%) and received cards from many club stations 
and individuals that hear us, but were unable to 
respond for one reason or another.

Most of the comments on here just make me ill, 
and of course no one is forcing me to read them...

Gad some of you, get a life..., and I've been licensed  over 60 years!!!

  Do we really need to write more and/or change the rules. We just need to
>obey the rules we learned a long time ago. Really, aren't the rules that
>govern Amateur Radio Etiquette similar to the same rules that we learned in
>Kindergarten?
>"These are the things I learned:
>Share everything.
>Play fair.
>Don't hit people.
>Put things back where you found them.
>Clean up your own mess.
>Don't take things that aren't yours.
>Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
>Wash your hands before you eat.
>Flush.
>Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
>Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and
>sing and dance and play and work everyday some.
>Take a nap every afternoon.
>When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and
>stick together.
>Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the
>roots go down and the plant goes up andnobody really knows how or why,
>but we are all like that.
>Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the
>Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
>And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you
>learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK."
>Everything you need to know about Ham Radio and life in general is in there
>somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and
>politics and equality and sane living.
>[Source: "ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN" by Robert
>Fulghum]
>
>;-)) And here's to wishing you a Happy Field Day 2012!
>Chuck, KM9U
>
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Tim Cunningham" 
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 17:49
>Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>
>
>Read the AMSAT rules. The title of the AMSAT rules IS clear when you read
>the title as "2011 AMSAT Field Day Competition ".
>
>
>Tim - N8DEU
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "John Geiger" 
>To: "STeve Andre'" 
>Cc: 
>Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:11 PM
>Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>
>
>Of course it isn't a contest. The best evidence is that they print the
>scores in QST!
>
>73s John AA5JG
>
>On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:09 PM, STeve Andre'  wrote:
>
> > Well, is IS a contest, no matter what the ARRL says. People see it as
> > such.
> > My first FD before I was a ham, looked like a contest to me and it was
> > only
> > later, reading all the ARRL books I could get ahold of that I realized it
> > really wasn't one.
> >
> > All contests where you go outside are test runs for emergency stuff.
> > Our club in Ann Arbor MI (Arrow Communication Association) does the
> > summer vhf+ contests outside (6m-1296) and those have been a great
> > way to figure out ways of doing stuff.
> >
> > I would argue that the ARRL needs to change the way they talk, and
> > offer FD as both a contest and exercise in communications, and
> > speak of the exercise opportunities at the other contests, especially
> > those of rovers.
> >
> > --STeve Andre'
> > wb8wsf en72
> >
> > On 06/27/11 14:21, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> > > A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> > > your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> > > FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses involved at all?
> > >
> > > On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
> > >> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth
> > is good use” with respect to “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t
> > that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage
> > specific activities ­ traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > ___
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> > Not an AMSAT-NA member? Join now to support the amateur satellite program!
> > Subscription settings: http://amsat.org/mailman/listinfo/amsat-bb
> >
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Joe]

I know the ARRL  says it is not a contest.  but if you believe that I 
have a lovely swamp in Arizona to sell you.

I know many clubs that it is a MAJOR contest for them and some it's the 
onluy one they enter in.

Joe WB9SBD

The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com

On 6/27/2011 1:21 PM, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?
>
> On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
>> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth is 
>> good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t 
>> that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage 
>> specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
>>
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Jeff Moore]

You raise an interesting point and something I've wondered about for some 
time now.

IF the sat operators are always so bent out of shape when someone actually 
uses the sats, then why the heck does AMSAT promote a parallel Field Day 
event with ARRL's Field Day??

I think it's about time for AMSAT to have their OWN Field Day Event ON A 
SEPARATE WEEKEND!!!

That way the "serious" sat operators can play all they want on their linear 
birds and leave the FM sats for the ARRL Field Day participants.  Then AMSAT 
can have it's own Field Day (or SAT DAY) with it's own rules, like a 100 pt 
bonus for working 2 or more qso's on a linear bird or a 200 pt deduction for 
working an FM bird, etc.

73,

Jeff Moore  --  KE7ACY
CN94
Shields Up!

- Original Message - From: "Diane Bruce" 
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes.
I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use
during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them
off during field day to stop this.

Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.

Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.

- 73 Diane VA3DB
-- 
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Joe]

Read a little further down in the rules it clearly states on the single 
channel FM birds ONLY ONE CONTACT  Period  it is very clear.


Joe WB9SBD

The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com

On 6/27/2011 1:29 PM, Andreas Junge wrote:
> There is no such rule in the FD that limits you to one Satellite contact. You 
> need AT LEAST one for the 100 bonus points:
>
> > From the FD rules (2011):
> 7.3.7. Satellite QSO: 100 bonus points for successfully completing at least 
> one QSO via an amateur radio satellite during the Field Day period. "General 
> Rules for All ARRL Contests" (Rule 3.7.2.), (the no-repeater QSO stipulation) 
> is waived for satellite QSOs. Groups are allowed one dedicated satellite 
> transmitter station without increasing their entry category. Satellite QSOs 
> also count for regular QSO credit. Show them listed separately on the summary 
> sheet as a separate "band." You do not receive an additional bonus for 
> contacting different satellites, though the additional QSOs may be counted 
> for QSO credit unless prohibited under Rule 7.3.7.1. The QSO must be between 
> two Earth stations through a satellite. Available to Classes A, B, and F.
>
>
> 73,
>
> Andreas, N6NU, CM87VK
>
> On Jun 27, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Floyd Rodgers wrote:
>
>> Guys, this seems simple to fix. The arrl gets the logs of everyone. How
>> hard is it to build a table of the sat contacts and check who gets more
>> than the allowed one contact?
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[amsat-bb] ISS something not right

[Kevin Deane]

Ok something is amiss because nobody is getting in, and it sounds more like a 
beacon or something. If it was working at least the beacon people would be 
getting in, and maybe some people like me uselessly trying for a digi contact 
which last month was easy!
 
I know most people are bored with this but I figure if its goin over I might as 
well try, I am pretty persistant which did pay off on PC-Sat. Must have been 
lucky on that one cuz nothin for 20+ days.
 

Kevin
KF7MYK
  
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[amsat-bb] A thought and some brags... (was Re: Re: FD Mess)

[Zachary Beougher]

>Do we really need to write more and/or change the rules. We just need to
>obey the rules we learned a long time ago. Really, aren't the rules that
>govern Amateur Radio Etiquette similar to the same rules that we learned in
>Kindergarten?

This is what I am beginning to wonder.  I think I have about 20 emails now 
with this subject.  To be quite honest, I think everyone makes too big a 
deal out of "satellite field day."  I made one (1) satellite QSO during the 
entire event to get the 100 points for our club - the QSO was not rushed, I 
had plenty of room, and I was only running 5w as usual.  IMO, the issue at 
hand is that everyone plans on making 100+ QSOs on FD via satellites.  That 
is 199 points.  100 for the first, then 1 per QSO.  You may as well spend 
your time on HF which is not so crowded, or better yet, do CW and/or digital 
and you get 2 points/QSO.  Why get so worked up over an extra few points? 
Get the first 100 and be done.

Secondly, you can't go into FD expecting everyone to 1) obey rules, 2) give 
you the right-of-way, and 3) expect to make more than one sat QSO.  You need 
to worry more about strategizing.  I was on the afternoon passes on 
Saturday, but I did not go into it expecting any QSOs.  It was insane, but I 
expected it to be.  Use a strategy and look for the quieter passes.  We 
obviously didn't get anything on Saturday, so we did an overnight SO50 pass. 
There were very few on, and we could have very easily made a QSO, but I was 
having some receive issues.  We tried again on AO51 Sunday morning, and we 
got our QSO without issue.  Look for the overnight, early morning, AND LOW 
PASSES.  If you live on the east coast, hit the eastern passes; if you live 
in the west, hit the western passes; if you live in central US, improve you 
receive setup so you can work AOS and LOS, which are generally quiet.  Use 
some strategy and drop the expectations.

Just my 2 cents...

Hopefully everyone had an enjoyable FD in spite of the busy passes.  I 
enjoyed seeing some familiar calls get logged.  I watched Jeff, KB2M, get 
logged, and I also got to work Chris, N1BSA.  I am sure I worked more of 
you, but everyone was using unfamiliar club calls.  Our club was running 4A 
with an additional 6m station (which made 114 QSOs by itself compared to 35 
last year!), and we ended up with a little over 1600 QSOs.  The call was 
W8CBF if any of you have good memories

The Ohio section manager Frank, KI8GW, also stopped by the club and enjoyed 
dinner with us.  This was his second year in a row stopping by.  The club is 
comprised of about 3-4 elmers and about 20+ kids ranging from 5-25.  Some 
have more experience than others.  Frank really enjoys seeing the youth get 
more active, and we enjoy being able to host him!

Does anyone else have any cool brags and/or something noteworthy (or not 
noteworthy) that occurred on FD?  I personally don't see any need to 
continue the subject about the poor operating practice.  What is done is 
done, just plan for next year.

73!

Zack
KD8KSN

-Original Message- 
From: KM9U
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 6:30 PM
To: Tim Cunningham ; amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

Do we really need to write more and/or change the rules. We just need to
obey the rules we learned a long time ago. Really, aren't the rules that
govern Amateur Radio Etiquette similar to the same rules that we learned in
Kindergarten?
"These are the things I learned:
Share everything.
Play fair.
Don't hit people.
Put things back where you found them.
Clean up your own mess.
Don't take things that aren't yours.
Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.
Wash your hands before you eat.
Flush.
Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.
Live a balanced life - learn some and think some and draw and paint and
sing and dance and play and work every day some.
Take a nap every afternoon.
When you go out in the world, watch out for traffic, hold hands and
stick together.
Be aware of wonder. Remember the little seed in the Styrofoam cup: the
roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody really knows how or why,
but we are all like that.
Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even the little seed in the
Styrofoam cup - they all die. So do we.
And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books and the first word you
learned - the biggest word of all - LOOK."
Everything you need to know about Ham Radio and life in general is in there
somewhere. The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation. Ecology and
politics and equality and sane living.
[Source: "ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW I LEARNED IN KINDERGARTEN" by Robert
Fulghum]

;-)) And here's to wishing you a Happy Field Day 2012!
Chuck, KM9U



- Original Message - 
From: "Tim Cunningham" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 17:49
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess


Read the AMSAT rules. The title of the AMSAT rules IS clear when you read
the title as "2011 AMSAT Field

[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[John Geiger]

I wish it was treated like a major contest by my local club-I might attend 
their FD setup then.

73s John AA5jG

- Original Message - 
From: "Joe" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:22 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess


>I know the ARRL  says it is not a contest.  but if you believe that I
> have a lovely swamp in Arizona to sell you.
>
> I know many clubs that it is a MAJOR contest for them and some it's the
> onluy one they enter in.
>
> Joe WB9SBD
>
> The Original Rolling Ball Clock
> Idle Tyme
> Idle-Tyme.com
> http://www.idle-tyme.com
>
> On 6/27/2011 1:21 PM, Nigel Gunn wrote:
>> A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
>> your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
>> FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?
>>
>> On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
>>> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth 
>>> is good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. 
>>> Wasn’t that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To 
>>> encourage specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency 
>>> power, etc.
>>>
>> ___
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[Edward R. Cole]

Or Lindenblads or Quadrafillers.  Info is on the Amsat webpage for 
these, right?

73, Ed - KL7uW

At 12:09 PM 6/27/2011, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:
>Build  Egg beaters
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Jeremy Widner" 
>To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
>Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 3:00:28 PM
>Subject: [amsat-bb]  How to get started on SSB birds
>
>I have been doing FM birds for a couple of years now with HTs and Arrow
>antennas.  I am ready to start messing with the other birds.  I have a
>Kenwood TS-2000 for a rig.  I do NOT currently have a tower up.  I was
>wondering antenna suggestions you guys might have to jump into the ssb birds
>without using a tower.  My preference is to build something as money is
>always an issue (insert wife).
>
>--
>73
>Jeremy Widner
>K0PDX
>http://k0pdx.us
>Secretary Raytown Amateur Radio Club - K0GQ
>http://k0gq.com/
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73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
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EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com
==

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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds (antennas)

[Joe Krepps]

All,

I appreciate that this topic has been brought up (especially _after_ FD,  
HiHi!!).

If I may inject a question: for the seriously budget minded, is there any  
value to building a "better antenna" (i.e. more elements for improved  
gain) versus adding a pre-amp? I realize a higher gain antenna will be  
more sensitive to positioning/aiming and, unless I go the U-110 rotator  
route, I won't be doing much elevation adjustment.

I'll be using either my current FT-817ND or an eBay all mode 2m  
transciever, for AO-7. In Mode A, rx with the FT-817ND & tx with a "well  
loved" 2m all mode. In Mode B, rx with the 2m all mode and Tx with the  
FT-817ND. Of course, dialing the power down as often as practical!

(Now, I kinda' wish I could have held onto my old IC-820H, Yaesu Az/El  
rotators and "Oscar link" crossed yagis...but I needed $$ at the time.  
Now, I'm married so, by definition, I'm broke. HiHi!)

I appreciate ALL the wisdom shared so far! :)

Mny tnx & 73!
Joe WB3CFN
P.S. I _do_ have an Arrow but not sure how suitable it is for continuous  
outdoor use.
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[amsat-bb] WD9EWK - Field Day 2011 report

[Patrick STODDARD (WD9EWK/VA7EWK)]

Hi!

Glad to see this old-school e-mail list is getting a workout today. :-)
Despite all the complaining about how crowded the satellite passes were
over the weekend, it was fun to get one.  I try to make time to work 
Field Day, even if it is just the satellites, as a reason to get out 
of the desert heat. 

As I have done since 2009, I parked at a Garland Prairie Vista Picnic
Ground in the Kaibab National Forest.  This is along old US-66, north
of the I-40 freeway and 20 miles/32km west of Flagstaff in northern
Arizona.  I knew of this place from trips to the DM35xg/DM45ag grid
boundary just west of this site, and being up in the mountains and 
trees is a lot better than the desert heat.  I brought the two FT-817NDs
I normally use on the non-FM satellites, along with a TH-F6A (backup 
radio for satellite operating, and possibly useful for VHF/UHF FM 
QSOs during Field Day) and my IC-703 HF/6m transceiver.  Besides the
Elk 2m/70cm log periodic I use on the satellites, I brought an Outbacker
Joey HF/VHF vertical and a Buddipole multiband dipole that would really
come in handy during this Field Day.  

Since 2001, I have generally worked Field Day as a 1B/1-operator/battery
station transmitting at 5 watts.  I may be a glutton for punishment, but
QRP power levels make it easier to power the equipment.  I had printed 
out the pass predictions for the day, so I didn't need a computer running
tracking software.  The IC-703 is a 10W transceiver, but I dialed it down
to the 5W level so I could qualify for the 5x power multiplier under the
ARRL rules.  The FT-817NDs and TH-F6A are 5W transceivers, so I left their
power settings on "high", and hoped for the best. 

I started out on 15m using the IC-703 and Outbacker Joey, then switched
periodically to 6m using the Buddipole dipole.  I would jump from band
to band as I heard activity, and also worked many Arizona stations on 
6m.  For the first time in Field Day, I completed a terrestrial 2m FM
QSO with a group on a mountain about 40 miles/64km south of me.  I used
the TH-F6A with a Diamond tri-band antenna on it, and had a nice chat 
with that group after making the Field Day exchange.

As for the satellites, I did not do as well this year.  I confined my 
FM activity to only the west-coast passes.  I made one QSO on SO-50
on the 2030 UTC pass Saturday afternoon, but the other station did not 
offer the Field Day exchange.  My first Field Day satellite QSO was on
the west-coast AO-27 pass an hour later.  After making the QSO that I
will score in my log, I also made a couple of other non-point QSOs as
I detailed in an earlier post.  

One of the things I wanted to try this Field Day was AO-7 in mode A.
I had one chance to do that, on the pass around 2230 UTC Saturday 
afternoon before the mode change approximately an hour later.  I 
was unsuccessful in making a QSO on this pass, but I was successful
in hearing myself on the 10m downlink using the IC-703 with my
Buddipole dipole reconfigured for this pass (one side vertical, the
other side horizontal, set for resonance around 29.450 MHz), in CW 
and SSB.  This was a great test, and I hope to make mode A QSOs on 
AO-7 in the near future.  I tried the next AO-7 pass in mode B, 
but had no luck completing a QSO there.  That happens sometimes,
and I'm not complaining.  

On FO-29 a little while later, I had a hard time hearing myself.  
When I moved up the passband a bit, I could hear myself, but nobody
else joined me up there.  I was able to make one QSO toward the end
of the pass, as other stations wrapped up their activity and there
were fewer signals on the uplink.  Not too bad.  I tried the next
FO-29 pass that covered the west coast, but could not get through 
well enough for a couple of stations to copy my call correctly.  
Oh well... 

As was mentioned previously, the AO-51 pass up the west coast just
after  UTC was a nice pass.  I will try to post my audio recording
of that pass, to show how things calmed down toward the end of the 
pass.  I made my points-earning QSO early in the pass, then answered
others who were calling WD9EWK, and even worked one station that was
not interested in a Field Day exchange.  I gave him my grid locator
(DM45) in place of "1B-AZ".  

I tried the shallow VO-52 pass just before 0200 UTC, after copying the
W1AW phone bulletin that started at 0145 UTC.  I think the mountains 
to the east didn't let me have more than a couple of minutes to hear 
the satellite.  At this point, I wanted to stick around for the next
VO-52 pass, but by then it would be completely dark in the forest 
except for my flashlights.  I also had to return home that evening, 
due to other things I needed to do Sunday.  

I still have to put together my log for submission to ARRL and AMSAT,
but I know I didn't make as many QSOs - satellite, or overall - this
year.  For satellites, I had a total of 3 QSOs that will go on my
submission.  I was disappointed I couldn't get QSOs on AO-7 or VO-52,
but being able to he

[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds

[Edward R. Cole]

At 03:51 PM 6/27/2011, Edward R. Cole wrote:
>Or Lindenblads or Quadrafillers.  Info is on the Amsat webpage for
>these, right?
>
>73, Ed - KL7uW
>

Sorry I should have also said I have links on my webpage for the Lindenblads:
http://www.kl7uw.com/sat.htm
http://www.kl7uw.com/LBant.htm



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com
==

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Gregg Wonderly]

My club event is usually quite social, but, we use logging software that has 
the 
name of the operator in it, and logs over the network.  So, it's always 
visible, 
who's working and who's not.  I sat down on two different bands on two 
different 
occasions for about 1.5 hours each, calling CQ using phone with W5OK.  I worked 
nearly 400 stations doing that, and if I wanted to put in more time, I could 
have more than doubled that by going to other bands.  I didn't use a keyer and 
I 
didn't use head phones.

If you want to contest, and want people around you to learn to contest, field 
day is a great time to go out and show people how to do 30 sec or less 
contacts. 
  If the experienced and capable operators hide in the comfort of the house and 
work as a 1D, then field day will soon just be a contest from the house...

Gregg Wonderly
W5GGW

On 6/27/2011 6:34 PM, John Geiger wrote:
> I wish it was treated like a major contest by my local club-I might attend
> their FD setup then.
>
> 73s John AA5jG
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Joe"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:22 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
>
>
>> I know the ARRL  says it is not a contest.  but if you believe that I
>> have a lovely swamp in Arizona to sell you.
>>
>> I know many clubs that it is a MAJOR contest for them and some it's the
>> onluy one they enter in.
>>
>> Joe WB9SBD
>>
>> The Original Rolling Ball Clock
>> Idle Tyme
>> Idle-Tyme.com
>> http://www.idle-tyme.com
>>
>> On 6/27/2011 1:21 PM, Nigel Gunn wrote:
>>> A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
>>> your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
>>> FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?
>>>
>>> On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
 I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth
 is good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”.
 Wasn’t that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To
 encourage specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency
 power, etc.

>>> ___
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>>> program!
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>>>
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>
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Edward R. Cole]

OK, you want to play "Reality":

IN a mass-casualty disaster, I hope satellite users will be smart 
enough to "Restrict satellite use for emergency traffic".  Each pass 
will be strictly controlled by a Net Control with closed-net 
protocols (no calls without permission of NC).  NC WILL be traffic 
cop and it will be one at a time calling...offenders will be "visited 
by black suburbans and guys wearing sunglasses and padded suit coats"! ;-)

Seriously, under emcomm there WILL BE RULES and they will be 
ENFORCED...as they should be.

so there is there is no comparison with ham radio, as usual.

Another reality:  historically, most ham radio emcomm is passed on HF 
or terrestrial VHF.
My unsolicited opinion:  digital-comms is where satellite will be 
most useful in emergency traffic.

73, Ed - KL7UW

At 11:54 AM 6/27/2011, John Geiger wrote:
>That is a good point.  I am sure that if/when the big one hits and we need
>to pass emergency communications, we will have to do it under less than
>optimal conditions or "rules" including on the satellites.  When such an
>occassion occurs, I doubt everyone will be limiting themselves to 5 watts or
>less, or only 1 QSO per satellite per day or weekend.  I think most people
>will be trying to get through any way they can to pass traffic.  We should
>get used to the pandamonium, that it what it will actually be like.
>
>73s John AA5JG
>
>On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Bob- W7LRD  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >  Because,  just maybe, one day you'll have to do it for real!
> >
> >
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73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
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EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[R Oler]

Exactly.  Why  anyone would think that an FM bird in LEO is a viable means of 
emergency communications is beyond me.  And then past that if it was the "only 
means left" why anyone would be surprised that the people needing the comm 
capability (such as it is) are not going to use whatever ERP it is going to 
take to get into the bird is beyond me as well.  

Most of the complaints strike me as silly.  With the technical limitations of 
an FM bird in LEO the notion of expecting anything different then what exist 
now is almost tooth fairy like.  In the end if FM birds are what the folks and 
organizations who build satellites want to launch, this is the kind of 
"operating" environment that they are going to encourage.  The argument that 
"we have to build satellites" that are popular is self fulfilling.

Robert G. Oler WB5MZO (life member ARRL, AMSAT NARS)


> From: ni...@ngunn.net
> To: w...@hotmail.com
> CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
> 
> A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate 
> your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?


  
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Ben Napper]

Uh Oh... East Coast/West Coast... FIGHT!!! :) (Just kidding)

I managed to make my contact from the Kansas City area on the 4am pass on
SO-50 (as NX0U).  Still a bit chaotic, but I did 'cheat' by leaving my
handheld plugged into external power to be a full 5w out. :)

KC0PCQ

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Clint Bradford wrote:

> >> ... There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi
> contacts ...
>
> I am quite proud of how stations acted out here on the West Coast. I mean,
> we have the largest potential for problems, since we have the largest number
> of hams compared to anywhere else in the U.S. Yes, the FM birds were busy
> ... and I even could call one particular pass a little chaotic (grin) ...
> but, overall, common sense and reasonable operating techniques prevailed.
>
> Clint Bradford, K6LCS
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened?

[R Oler]

Bob.  The odds of getting a "real ham" are pretty small in my view.  There will 
be the occasional person who is either interested in the effort pre launch or 
gets that way due to circumstances aboard the station, but that's going to be 
rare particularly as long as the folks doing the flying are "NASA employees".  

What I would hope for more is a real ham setup on ISS.  something other then a 
digi or a psuedo FM bird.  A real transponder would be nice.  

Robert G. Oler WB5MZO (Life member AMSAT ARRL NARS)

> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:47:31 +
> From: w7...@comcast.net
> To: pisym...@gmail.com
> CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened?
> 
> 
> 
> This may open a can of worms-However,  I'd like to see a "real" ham on the 
> ISS.  We all know what that means.  Granted they all take the tech license to 
> be "official" amateur radio operators.  However we don't see the "passion" in 
> the belly to get on the air.  There have been a few up there that had that 
> and it was noticable.  
> 
> 73 Bob W7LRD 
> 
> Seattle 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> 
> From: "Alexander Sack"  
> To: "amsat-bb"  
> Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:08:17 AM 
> Subject: [amsat-bb]  [AMSAT-BB] ISS, what the heck happened? 
> 
> So I think everyone read the announcement ARRL made before FD.  Now 
> that FD weekend is at an end, can someone explain to me why NASA 
> couldn't let the astronauts have 10 minutes on the radio for one pass? 
>  I mean were they having issues with the radio itself? 
> 
> I still don't see a 26th timeline as I thought that might give me a 
> clue on why this weekend was an epic failure (I mean I couldn't even 
> hear the digipeater at times). 
> 
> -aps (KC2ZSX) 
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds (antennas)

[Edward R. Cole]

Joe,

First off the FT-817 makes a nice satellite rig even though not 
cross-band duplex.

At 04:02 PM 6/27/2011, Joe Krepps wrote:
>All,
>
>I appreciate that this topic has been brought up (especially _after_ FD,
>HiHi!!).
>
>If I may inject a question: for the seriously budget minded, is there any
>value to building a "better antenna" (i.e. more elements for improved
>gain) versus adding a pre-amp? I realize a higher gain antenna will be
>more sensitive to positioning/aiming and, unless I go the U-110 rotator
>route, I won't be doing much elevation adjustment.

IN stepping up from say HT and Arrow to a "permanent" antenna there 
are two choices:
1)  A good omni-directional antenna with preamp, or
2)  A small yagi mounted at 15-degrees elevation and rotated with a 
cheap TV rotator.

If you can afford both #2 and a preamp that is even better.


>I'll be using either my current FT-817ND or an eBay all mode 2m
>transciever, for AO-7. In Mode A, rx with the FT-817ND & tx with a "well
>loved" 2m all mode. In Mode B, rx with the 2m all mode and Tx with the
>FT-817ND. Of course, dialing the power down as often as practical!

Sounds good.  I used my 3-element 20m yagi for mode-A AO-7 quite 
well, but my 2m Lindenblad was not adequate for uplink with 50w.
For mode-B AO-7 you probably need a yagi with preamp (others more 
AO-7 experienced feel free to confirm or refute).


>(Now, I kinda' wish I could have held onto my old IC-820H, Yaesu Az/El
>rotators and "Oscar link" crossed yagis...but I needed $$ at the time.
>Now, I'm married so, by definition, I'm broke. HiHi!)

As they say" "been there, done that".


>I appreciate ALL the wisdom shared so far! :)
>
>Mny tnx & 73!
>Joe WB3CFN
>P.S. I _do_ have an Arrow but not sure how suitable it is for continuous
>outdoor use.
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73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com
==

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[R Oler]

How would you enforce it?  Robert G. Oler WB5MZO (life member AMSAT ARRL NARS)

> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:48:48 -0500
> From: pagr...@gmail.com
> To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
> 
> The ARRL should impose an ERP limit for satellite contacts.  That
> would solve the problem.  I don't see how running amplifiers on FD is
> in the spirit of what FD is all about.  I've made contacts using 50 mw
> so why do stations use 100+ watts *before* the antenna..  I wouldn't
> want my kids playing around a FD site with this time of setup.
> 
> 73 de Pat --- KA9SCF.
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Joe]

some one is gonna get capped!

Joe WB9SBD

The Original Rolling Ball Clock
Idle Tyme
Idle-Tyme.com
http://www.idle-tyme.com

On 6/27/2011 11:40 AM, Ben Napper wrote:
> Uh Oh... East Coast/West Coast... FIGHT!!! :) (Just kidding)
>
> I managed to make my contact from the Kansas City area on the 4am pass on
> SO-50 (as NX0U).  Still a bit chaotic, but I did 'cheat' by leaving my
> handheld plugged into external power to be a full 5w out. :)
>
> KC0PCQ
>
> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Clint Bradfordwrote:
>
 ... There were too many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi
>> contacts ...
>>
>> I am quite proud of how stations acted out here on the West Coast. I mean,
>> we have the largest potential for problems, since we have the largest number
>> of hams compared to anywhere else in the U.S. Yes, the FM birds were busy
>> ... and I even could call one particular pass a little chaotic (grin) ...
>> but, overall, common sense and reasonable operating techniques prevailed.
>>
>> Clint Bradford, K6LCS
>>
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Bruce Paige]

I can handle that... next year it will be "2012 AMSAT Field Day Emergency 
Preparedness"

73...bruce





From: Tim Cunningham 
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:49:06 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

Read the AMSAT rules. The title of the AMSAT rules IS clear when you read 
the title as "2011 AMSAT Field Day Competition ".


Tim - N8DEU


- Original Message - 
From: "John Geiger" 
To: "STeve Andre'" 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:11 PM
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess


Of course it isn't a contest.  The best evidence is that they print the
scores in QST!

73s John AA5JG

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 2:09 PM, STeve Andre'  wrote:

> Well, is IS a contest, no matter what the ARRL says.  People see it as
> such.
> My first FD before I was a ham, looked like a contest to me and it was 
> only
> later, reading all the ARRL books I could get ahold of that I realized it
> really wasn't one.
>
> All contests where you go outside are test runs for emergency stuff.
> Our club in Ann Arbor MI (Arrow Communication Association) does the
> summer vhf+ contests outside (6m-1296) and those have been a great
> way to figure out  ways of doing stuff.
>
> I would argue that the ARRL needs to change the way they talk, and
> offer FD as both a contest and exercise in communications, and
> speak of the exercise opportunities at the other contests, especially
> those of rovers.
>
> --STeve Andre'
> wb8wsf  en72
>
> On 06/27/11 14:21, Nigel Gunn wrote:
> > A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate
> > your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> > FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?
> >
> > On 27/06/11 19:13, Bill Acito W1PA wrote:
> >> I think we have to let go of the mantra that “any use of the bandwidth
> is good use” with respect to  “encouraging more satellite activity”. Wasn’t
> that the original intent of the “100 point bonus” items? To encourage
> specific activities – traffic handling, promotion, emergency power, etc.
> >>
> >
>
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[amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds (antennas)

[Bob- W7LRD]

About the only time I need the flame thrower antenna and/or pre amp is when I'm 
trying to stretch the AO-7 foot print to get to OH8MBN from Seattle.  Other 
than that  a short yagi and low power is very adaquate for LEO's 

73 Bob W7LRD 

Seattle 



- Original Message -


From: "Joe Krepps"  
To: amsat-bb@amsat.org 
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 5:02:55 PM 
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: How to get started on SSB birds (antennas) 

All, 

I appreciate that this topic has been brought up (especially _after_ FD,   
HiHi!!). 

If I may inject a question: for the seriously budget minded, is there any   
value to building a "better antenna" (i.e. more elements for improved   
gain) versus adding a pre-amp? I realize a higher gain antenna will be   
more sensitive to positioning/aiming and, unless I go the U-110 rotator   
route, I won't be doing much elevation adjustment. 

I'll be using either my current FT-817ND or an eBay all mode 2m   
transciever, for AO-7. In Mode A, rx with the FT-817ND & tx with a "well   
loved" 2m all mode. In Mode B, rx with the 2m all mode and Tx with the   
FT-817ND. Of course, dialing the power down as often as practical! 

(Now, I kinda' wish I could have held onto my old IC-820H, Yaesu Az/El   
rotators and "Oscar link" crossed yagis...but I needed $$ at the time.   
Now, I'm married so, by definition, I'm broke. HiHi!) 

I appreciate ALL the wisdom shared so far! :) 

Mny tnx & 73! 
Joe WB3CFN 
P.S. I _do_ have an Arrow but not sure how suitable it is for continuous   
outdoor use. 
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[amsat-bb] subscribe

[Don Ferguson]

subscribe

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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Tim Cunningham]

Excellent!


Now let's move to the next step of business and address the true "FD Mess" that 
comes around every year.

The focus is around the FM satellite chaos. Several of us know the when, where, 
and why the 1 QSO limit was imposed. 

What I would like to see happen to address this issue is look at the real 
statistics, before and after the institution of this ruling for the 1 QSO 
limit. Look at the data and determine how many more QSO's were made before this 
ruling when a Net Control style of operation took place. If you need help I can 
provide the hit rate from our Field Day data way back when. It is bigger than 
many might realize. This type of operation brought about the same level of 
comment at the time, but I think we overlooked the benefit due to all the 
rants. With a 1 QSO point credit limit, we removed the fact that somebody could 
monopolize and run up their point count. Thus, the 1 QSO limit achieved its 
goal. This issue is that it went too far and promoted chaos. 

The reason for this investigation applies directly to the new title you are 
suggesting for the AMSAT event titled "2012 AMSAT Field Day Emergency 
Preparedness". In the original intent of Field Day it is only reasonable to 
pull away from this title that we are communicators finding ways to communicate 
effectively and efficiently. That being the case I think you will find that 
that a reasonable net control operation on an FM satellite may yield the most 
completed 2-way QSO's than letting chaos reign. The ARRL even promotes nets for 
a reason! We have let chaos reign far too long when some may recall when a net 
control style of operation yielded the most complete 2-way QSO's. Decipher the 
data and let the data speak for itself. We ran an experiment many years ago on 
an FM satellite during Field Day that brought on this ruling and we know that a 
net control style of operation is the only way to command control and bring 
more orderly operation than a free for all. The current rule on an FM satellite 
does not promote the style of operation that would normally be conducted under 
emergency preparedness condition. We can change this and it has been proven 
that a Net Control style of operation can increase the QSO count. I cannot help 
but remember listening in frustration years ago when people were calling 
aimlessly on an FM satellite during Field Day and very few were making 2-way 
exchanges. We could not stand it! Our station got on the air a few passes and 
became a target in a Net Style operation and stations were calling the target 
and we dished out QSO's to many station when nothing was being accomplished at 
the time. It brought order to chaos and QSO's were being made quickly. The 
operation was not about the points, but it was all about communicating. 
However, the aftermath of this specific operation created the great FM 
satellite rift. 

It is time to move forward and change the course of chaos. 

My suggestion is to allow a Net Control type of operation. Let us say you make 
5, 10 or more sequential QSO's and pass it off to another station who can 
capture and command the satellite, if there is one. Efficiency is improved when 
there is a target. I guess my only point here is that doing nothing will change 
nothing. We still have the 1 QSO limit so nobody has to worry about a monopoly 
or somebody running up there point total. I would do it and not claim a QSO 
point if needed in order to see it changed for the better. When somebody hears 
a target station they will call it and/or the target station can respond to 
those calling. This operation clearly netted the most QSO's being made at a 
specific time in history. It also clears traffic on the satellite faster when 
stations get their 100 bonus points for the ARRL event or 1 point for the AMSAT 
event. At this point the other station is dancing in the field bragging about 
their contact plus they would not get any additional credit even if they made 
another contact anyway. Disallowing a net style or control point for multiple 
contacts on an FM satellite only promotes chaos. This is my point and a 
suggestion for the box. 

　

Thank you for your interest and sincerity in advance, 

Tim - N8DEU







  - Original Message - 
  From: Bruce Paige 
  To: Tim Cunningham ; amsat-bb@amsat.org 
  Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 8:13 PM
  Subject: Re: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess


  I can handle that... next year it will be "2012 AMSAT Field Day Emergency 
Preparedness"

  73...bruce




--
  From: Tim Cunningham 
  To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
  Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:49:06 PM
  Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

  Read the AMSAT rules. The title of the AMSAT rules IS clear when you read 
  the title as "2011 AMSAT Field Day Competition ".


  Tim - N8DEU


  - Original Message - 
  From: "John Geiger" 
  To: "STeve Andre'" 
  Cc: 
  Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 2:11 PM
  Subject: 

[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Art McBride]

Robert,
 One or two contacts during an emergency could be life or death to someone.
The contact that gets through at the right time is the only one that counts.

FO 29 and VO52 are so lightly populated that you most always hear yourself
and on one else. But on Field Day there is blood in the water and the sharks
are feeding!
Art,KC6UQH
-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of R Oler
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 11:40 AM
To: ni...@ngunn.net; w...@hotmail.com
Cc: Amsat BB
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess


Exactly.  Why  anyone would think that an FM bird in LEO is a viable means
of emergency communications is beyond me.  And then past that if it was the
"only means left" why anyone would be surprised that the people needing the
comm capability (such as it is) are not going to use whatever ERP it is
going to take to get into the bird is beyond me as well.  

Most of the complaints strike me as silly.  With the technical limitations
of an FM bird in LEO the notion of expecting anything different then what
exist now is almost tooth fairy like.  In the end if FM birds are what the
folks and organizations who build satellites want to launch, this is the
kind of "operating" environment that they are going to encourage.  The
argument that "we have to build satellites" that are popular is self
fulfilling.

Robert G. Oler WB5MZO (life member ARRL, AMSAT NARS)


> From: ni...@ngunn.net
> To: w...@hotmail.com
> CC: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess
> 
> A bigger FD problem is that FD is advertised as a chance to demonstrate 
> your emergency comms ability to Joe Public.
> FD is NOT a contest so why are points and bonuses  involved at all?


  
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Gary "Joe" Mayfield]

Diane,

I'm not sure if I agree, but I am very willing to discuss.  In past
years I have taken many flames for demonstrating satellites to scouts and
other visitors at our site because it always resulted in the one contact
rule being broken.  This year I had the satellite gear operational for maybe
10 minutes to assemble the Arrow, connect the handheld, make the contact,
disassemble the Arrow and put it all away.

It was easy, but not much of a demonstration.  The 100 point bonus
was the only reason for our doing it.  Unless you have lots of folks at your
Field Day site with nothing to do, there is no real reward to having an
OSCAR station.

This is coming from someone who would still call themselves a
satellite enthusiast.

73,
Joe kk0sd

-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of Diane Bruce
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:19 PM
To: wa4...@comcast.net
Cc: AMSAT
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 03:13:34PM +, wa4...@comcast.net wrote:
> It took me 5 satellite passes before I could make 1 contact There were too
many ops making what sounded like HI POWER multi contacts .This should not
have happened. Maybe someone with good writting skills could send the ARRL
world above 50 an artical on how to work the birds during FD
> WA4HFN em55  Damon

I know I am going to get hate mail again. I just know it. But here goes.
I've been quietly suggesting that we should _not_ be encouraging sat use
during field day, furthermore we probably should consider turning them
off during field day to stop this.

Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.

Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.

- 73 Diane VA3DB
-- 
- d...@freebsd.org d...@db.net http://www.db.net/~db
  Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?
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[amsat-bb] Hams Embarrass Again

[Clint Bradford]

I am so glad there are so few actually involved in this list. Fellow hams here 
are again becoming an embarrassment 
to the hobby.

Whining and moaning about the lack of use of the FM birds 364 days out of the 
year ... Now hams are complaining 
that the FM birds were too busy for them to access for Field Day.

Additionally, it's been sad to see how many illiterate hams we have in this 
group - as few cannot read the Field Day 
rules and properly interpret some pretty basic sentences as they apply to 
working the satellites.

Then we have the "The odds of getting a "real ham" on the ISS are pretty small 
in my view" folks - truly a "view" of 
ignorance. It's like complaining, "How DARE the astronauts aboard not come out 
and play with me on amateur radio." 
Yes, there was fifteen minutes scheduled for amateur radio contacts last 
weekend. (Very few actually read the daily 
schedules for the astronauts - if they did, they'd realize that those aboard 
the ISS complete more tasks before lunch 
each day than you and I perform in many times that time.) But to moan that they 
chose to perform another task and 
now demeaning them as "not REAL hams" is insulting.

I witnessed similar immature behavior from my fellow hams last April 12, when 
we were hoping that ARISSat-1 
would be activated for the Yuri Gagarin commemorations world-wide. Hams were 
screaming bloody murder when 
Web sites weren't being updated second-by-second to meet their demands for 
information.

I repeat myself from an earlier post (same sentiment as a subsequent post by 
another)  - Hams on the west coast of 
the United States performed well on the FM satellites last weekend. I am proud 
to live on this "left coast," as I read that 
others had "problems" elsewhere.

I am giving my 13th formal satellite presentation of the year to a group 
tomorrow night ... Seems I do not have to 
change a thing that is taught to fellow hams out here.

Clint Bradford, K6LCS
http://www.work-sat.com
909-241-7666



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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Gary "Joe" Mayfield]

I can absolutely claim at least 3 satellite converts as a result of the old
get on the air and hammer away method, but 0 converts since the one and done
era.

Joe kk0sd

-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of Majdi S. Abbas
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:42 PM
To: Diane Bruce
Cc: AMSAT
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 05:18:54PM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote:
> Now hear me out before you hit that reply key. Field day operators
> are interested in those bonus points, we (amsat) are interested in
> promoting amateur radio sat operations. How many of these field day
> operations actually result in new satellite operators? Where are the
> surveys, stats? Does the extra massive battery use of our sats justify
> the PR? Keep in mind the state of AO-51 and FO-29.
> 
> Am I the only one? I'd be interested in a non-flame war discussion.

Sure, the person operating the radio is trying to collect the
bonus points for their operation.  

But most Field Day operations are a *group* effort.  Many of
the hams present may never have operated a satellite, and if shown
that they can get on the FM sats relatively easily, may give it a
try.  There are typically dozens of people present besides the
satellite operator, at least a few of which express some interest.  

People who collect bonus points usually go for the public
location/information table bonus as well, so you may be introducing
possible future hams to satellite work.

If the argument is 'show me the data,' feel free to go collect it;
the published FD scores is a good starting point for reaching out to
the involved parties.  Or you could fund a survey.  

It seems silly to demand that outreach be justified for you;
without it, you won't need those satellites anyway.  Lack of outreach
is a self correcting problem -- just add time, and there won't be any
satellites left.

73,

Majdi, N0RMZ
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[amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[Gary "Joe" Mayfield]

One and done -- It's been several years, does anyone think it has worked
Maybe it is time to reconsider.  I know it has convinced us to drop a
satellite station from our lineup.  Kevin or I just do the hand and Arrow
for ten minutes get a Q and then pack it up.

Joe kk0sd

-Original Message-
From: amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org [mailto:amsat-bb-boun...@amsat.org] On
Behalf Of George Henry
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 4:36 PM
To: Bill Acito W1PA; amsat-bb@amsat.org
Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

The intent of the rule was to reduce the congestion on the FM satellites by 
getting stations OFF them after making their one QSO, thereby giving more 
stations the opportunity to make a QSO.  So the way I interpret it, and the
way 
I've operated since the rule was adopted (and I was one of those who hounded
the 
ARRL to adopt it), is "ONE and you're DONE."  


Not two, or twenty, and you only get to SCORE one...

ONE.  


George, KA3HSW



- Original Message 
> From: Bill Acito W1PA 
> To: amsat-bb@amsat.org
> Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 3:59:09 PM
> Subject: [amsat-bb] Re: FD Mess

[snip]

> Yes, so I read this to say:
> You can make  as many satellite QSO's as you want.
> They count as another  band, each counts for QSO credit.
> You get 100 bonus point when  you make the first
> Only one QSO out of the total QSOs can come  from any/all of the FM 
> birds.
> 
> Could a lot of the "multi-QSO" issues  have come from the fact that folks 
> simply didn't understand the  rules?
> 
> Bill
> W1PA
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